Metagame SM Monotype Metagame Discussion

[Sabella]

I would imagine types that have trouble beating azumarill would already be weak to sitrus berry azu anyway. And going back to 50 no matter what isnt always ideal. Only buff i see from it is setting up on a predicted switchout while ur at 20% or under. This just creates prediction reliant situations i suppose but its not crazy predict reliant like for example aegi is. Maybe im just used to seeing it alot already but i dont think its anything worth discussing as crazy good.

 

[Bitana]

Well, I personally haven't had much of an issue with Z-Belly Drum yet, despite playing a type weak to it, simply because it is basically still checked by everything that checks Sitrus Azu. Say, in Fire, the way of checking it is still going to be Volcanion with Sludge Wave, no? On Rock, Cradily will still outspeed Adamant Belly drum Azumarill under webs, and does enough damage to were even if you get a low roll, sand will kill it next turn. (Without even considering predicting an Aqua jet and switching it in to get +1)
And Ground will still use Seismitoed to stop it sweeping, pretty sure. (Or some Garchomp's I think, I dunno Ground spreads, so sorry if that's wrong.)

252+ SpA Volcanion Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 274-324 (80.1 - 94.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
0 SpA Cradily Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 164-194 (47.9 - 56.7%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Seismitoad Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 194-230 (56.7 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 331-390 (78.8 - 92.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Sure, late game it's an issue for all of those types, but so is Sitrus Azu as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Wanka]

they really would. z belly doesn't make it any better and in some cases it makes it worse. Azu's hp is precious regardless and I don't think z belly lets you play anymore aggressive with it because it's not like you are surprising anybody. Slow and heavily passive teams deserve to be punished by it and the meta as a whole is really offensive and probably will stay that way for a decent while. And on the flip side types that have an answer to sitrus won't just lose to z belly. It doesn't really enhance any match up over sitrus, it's just simply used in a different manner. If anything, the meta got mroe resistant to it with some of the new mons and terrains and shit. I don't see it as an issue at all and imo it's worse than sitrus.

 

[juleocesar]

they really would. z belly doesn't make it any better and in some cases it makes it worse. Azu's hp is precious regardless and I don't think z belly lets you play anymore aggressive with it because it's not like you are surprising anybody. Slow and heavily passive teams deserve to be punished by it and the meta as a whole is really offensive and probably will stay that way for a decent while. And on the flip side types that have an answer to sitrus won't just lose to z belly. It doesn't really enhance any match up over sitrus, it's just simply used in a different manner. If anything, the meta got mroe resistant to it with some of the new mons and terrains and shit. I don't see it as an issue at all and imo it's worse than sitrus.

Again, it pretty much depends on the situation, because there are cases that Z-Belly Drum is really better than Sitrus (meaning that Sitrus isn't always the best option). Sitrus works better against teams with more defensive approach, as they will most likely fail to leave Azumarill below 75% health. The calcs involved are fairly simple, considering Belly Drum costs 50% health and Sitrus heal 25%, meaning that Azumarill will end up below 50% health after using Belly Drum if its health is below the mentioned thresold. On the other hand, Z-Belly Drum works better against teams with more offensive approach, as they will be able to quickly take down Azumarill's health and it sets its health to a higher level than in a Sitrus Set.

The only exception to this rule is if Belly Drum is not used at all throughout the game, as the item can provide some healing without being dependant on Belly Drum usage as Normalium Z sets are, but that kinda defeats the purpose of using Azumarill in first place, as it meant to setup in opportunities and clean late-game whenever possible.

 

[MZ]

they really would. z belly doesn't make it any better and in some cases it makes it worse. Azu's hp is precious regardless and I don't think z belly lets you play anymore aggressive with it because it's not like you are surprising anybody. Slow and heavily passive teams deserve to be punished by it and the meta as a whole is really offensive and probably will stay that way for a decent while. And on the flip side types that have an answer to sitrus won't just lose to z belly. It doesn't really enhance any match up over sitrus, it's just simply used in a different manner. If anything, the meta got mroe resistant to it with some of the new mons and terrains and shit. I don't see it as an issue at all and imo it's worse than sitrus.

My experience has been pretty much the opposite of this. Slow teams always had a problem with azu, and z-BD doesn't help it that much. Where it does make Azu a lot more deadly is versus HO teams that were previously reliant on simple offensive pressure to check it. For example, Fighting can't rely on always hitting it hard enough to prevent a setup because Azu can BD from anywhere, which is why I've been running plenty of Kommo-o (also losing dual prio mega medi for azu sucked but w/e). A lot of people are saying this is worse because it leaves azu lower, but I'm not sure that's always the case here. Fortunately some of the broken stuff still running around happens to check it so yeah.
While we're on Z moves tho...
Keldeo @ Waterium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Rain Dance
- Icy Wind / Hidden Power anything

This is something I had to share, sorta like manaphy in OU but legal on fighting and works nicely vs certain opposing builds. Rain dance makes Hydro Pump hit as hard as a specs Keldeo's pump (I think?) while also giving you +1 speed. This allows you to nicely punish offensive teams that could handle some kind of choiced keldeo but get pressed a lot harder by fast and move switching ones (think like kartana+skarmory steel that can pivot into either move). Oh and if you need it, there's always just Z-Hydro to nuke shit. Overall I think Z moves hurt the competitiveness of the game because they come out of nowhere, but I have to admit things like this are really fun to use.
e: also this http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-489871501

 

[Wanka]

Fighting can't/couldn't rely on hitting it hard enough with sitrus either. It's very easy to maintain screens vs fighting and in general water fairy makes the damage most fighting mons can do to it very limited. And it would be even harder now because I haven't seen anyone use breloom on fighting yet. (idrk if that's good or not but i just haven't seen one so idk). The same goes for z belly so that just feeds into my point of that it doesn't enhance any matchup that sitrus would have. And you saying you've been using plenty of kommo-o also feeds into what I was saying about the meta shift hasn't been kind to bd azu in general.

juleocesar offensive teams tend to rely on immunities/resistances and priority to deal with it anyways. Yeah, you are probably going to be getting a tad more hp than you would if you are trying to set up on something that is pretty strong and can do loads of damage to azu, but I think most offensive types that already have the same answers to sitrus still are able to handle z belly the same way. My post indicated that they both have their uses in different scenarios when I said "they are used in different manners." That hasn't been indicative of z belly being too good though because all it does is find different spots to set up, that's literally it. That doesn't mean it beats any types sitrus wouldn't because it actually doesn't.

 

[juleocesar]

Fighting can't/couldn't rely on hitting it hard enough with sitrus either. It's very easy to maintain screens vs fighting and in general water fairy makes the damage most fighting mons can do to it very limited. And it would be even harder now because I haven't seen anyone use breloom on fighting yet. (idrk if that's good or not but i just haven't seen one so idk). The same goes for z belly so that just feeds into my point of that it doesn't enhance any matchup that sitrus would have. And you saying you've been using plenty of kommo-o also feeds into what I was saying about the meta shift hasn't been kind to bd azu in general.

juleocesar offensive teams tend to rely on immunities/resistances and priority to deal with it anyways. Yeah, you are probably going to be getting a tad more hp than you would if you are trying to set up on something that is pretty strong and can do loads of damage to azu, but I think most offensive types that already have the same answers to sitrus still are able to handle z belly the same way. My post indicated that they both have their uses in different scenarios when I said "they are used in different manners." That hasn't been indicative of z belly being too good though because all it does is find different spots to set up, that's literally it. That doesn't mean it beats any types sitrus wouldn't because it actually doesn't.

I agree with you that Z-Belly Drum is overrated and that it isn't by any means that overpowered, but the way you put ''z belly doesn't make it any better and in some cases it makes it worse'' sounded as if Sitrus Berry was the best option 100% of the time, which is simply untrue. I understand what you are saying but the item choice has mostly to do with whether you want to guarantee Belly Drum setups or stay as healthier as possible. I think Sitrus Berry sets satisfies the latter while the Z-BDrum sets goes for the former. So the choice of the item is much more a matter of how Azumarill is played than how it interacts with matchups, because I also agree that there aren't any differences on Azumarill beating types on both sets.

 

[Wanka]

well it was just a misinterperentation then because none of what I said was meant to indicate that one is necessarily better than the other. Just that in certain spots, sitrus is better and in certain spots, z belly is better. And I just went on to say that I still prefer sitrus because I like playing it that way. The main point was what you said about it not enhancing any matchups so ye.

 

[Diakou]

Excuse me , Can someone explain to me why Mega Metagross is on wait.... Have you guys used it before or played against it, I could have really come on this forum and complain and act like a 12 year old kid but I'm so mind boggled so I want someone to explain it to me

 

[Acast]

Excuse me , Can someone explain to me why Mega Metagross is on wait.... Have you guys used it before or played against it, I could have really come on this forum and complain and act like a 12 year old kid but I'm so mind boggled so I want someone to explain it to me

The explanation has already been posted in this thread. I'll quote it:

Okay, I really want to make sure the community knows where I'm at right now in regards to the next ban wave because I don't think I'm on the same page. I'm not speaking for anyone else on the council, these are just my personal thoughts and what I think of two Steel-types. Regarding Mega Metagross and Kartana, I've noticed a lot of discussion of these Pokemon both in this thread and in the Monotype chatroom, so I think this is something I have to address. Take note of this: I'm only referring to the current metagame. Whether or not a Pokemon is banworthy in the third ban wave is irrelevant to me for the current metagame.

Mega Metagross: Now this is a Pokemon that is apparently "very obviously being banned" and this viewpoint has been repeated by many people. I don't see it at all. What exactly is making Mega Metagross so broken that it needs to be banned? In fact, I remember receiving a lot of criticism for not having banned Mega Metagross in the first ban wave, which included titans like Complete Zygarde, Pheromosa, and Aegislash. People were literally saying that Mega Metagross is a threat on the level of those three, and that just is not something I understand. As it stands, I don't believe Mega Metagross is even worth banning in the second ban wave.

On Psychic teams, why would you ever use this Pokemon? After more testing since my original post, I am even more convinced that Mega Alakazam is not just a good Mega Evolution, but I even believe that it's a superior Pokemon to Mega Metagross. Mega Alakazam's ridiculous Speed tier makes it far more useful against offensive teams, and its Trace lets it check weather and terrain sweepers, and two of the top five types (in my opinion: Dark, Ground, Electric, Fairy, Psychic) use them. Mega Metagross on the other hand... beats Fairy and does just about nothing else. It doesn't help that Jirachi is a very common and useful supportive option that also beats Fairy teams, so I would pretty much never even use Mega Metagross on Psychic teams. Mega Metagross provides just about nothing of worth to the team.

On Steel teams, I still don't know what this is supposed to be used for. It still gets walled by half of Psychic, it still gets destroyed by Zygarde-10% from Dark(even more of a problem when most of Steel is very weak to it), it's still horribly weak to Darkrai on Dark, and it takes a ridiculous amount of damage from Alolan Raichu. I'd sooner use the walled-by-Tapu Lele Mega Scizor, which at least provides momentum and a check to many of the top threats of the tier. It also just gets OHKOed by Kingdra and walled by the defensive Water core. What help does it bring to your team? No idea. I can't think of any, at any rate. Being able to beat Fairy is hardly an impressive resume when your entire team is Steel-type too.

As the host of the Welcome to Sun and Moon tour, I've watched every battle. I have not seen even one instance of Mega Metagross being valuable. It only contributed to one battle because it got critical hits with Meteor Mash. Outside of that, it was completely useless and deadweight in every single battle. So far, in the total of 41 battles played, Mega Metagross was useful in only one game because of luck. And this is the Pokemon that the council was supposed to ban alongside Complete Zygarde? I hope my utter confusion is understandable. It's not that I haven't battled good players with it, it's that it's just not useful and it's just not broken. I've battled on the ladder and none of my teams have any trouble with Mega Metagross. It underperforms in tournament play, and it underperforms in ladder play.

I'm not speaking for any of the other members of the council, but I think my personal position on Mega Metagross is clear. Is it worth banning? I don't think so right now, but feel free to change my view.

While I think Eien is underestimating Mega Metagross a little, I agree with his overall point. It's overhyped. In addition, Vid made a post explaining why he thinks Steel is so good:

These are my thoughts not the council's
A lot of people are talking about Steel being "too good", but they are only looking at Mega Metagross and Kartana as the main issues (which they very well could be) The main issue I have is Genesect has been left out of conversation when almost every Steel team in Sun and Moon utilizes it

Overview
Genesect as a Pokemon is simply blessed. Looking at its stats Genesect has Base 120 Attack and Base 120 Special Attack, which are well above average. On top its great offensive stats of its physical and special movepull is superb. (Physical side U-turn, Blaze Kick, Extreme Speed, Iron Head are the most viable. Special Side Ice Beam, Bug Buzz, Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, Flash Cannon, and Energy Ball being the most viable.) On Steel typically Choice Scarf is the best because it allows Genesect to check faster threats, such as Greninja and Zygrade-10%(Zygrade 10% is typically something that Genesect shuts down). But other sets are viable such Choice Band and Expert Belt(Bluff Choice Scarf) because Genesect is extremely versatile, meaning that very few Pokemon can actually deal with Genesect. One of the best answers to Genesect is typically Specially Defensive Heatran, which is only on Steel and Fire. Genesect also has set up moves in Shift Gear and Rock Polish(Rock Polish is used so you don't need to use Shiny Genesect event on a fully special variant + increasing Foul Play's damage isn't good on fully Special set) (Also forces Genesect to run Hasty Nature). Another major contributor Genesect being a menace is Download allowing to to boost its Attack or Special Attack on switch in depending on the foe's weaker defense. Genesect is extremely versatile because of its ability to run multiple moves, equally good offensive stats, and the ability to run multiple sets effectively.
Genesect in the current Metagame
The introduction of many new fairy types and many slower Pokemon makes Genesect a bigger nuisance. Genesect in XY was annoying to deal with because of its versatility but nothing really viable has been released in Sun and Moon can shut it down. I see a small differences between XY Genesect and Sun and Moon Genesect, one of them being Genesect having additional partners in Mega Metagross, Kartana, Magearna, and Celesteela. Genesect has the movepull that push Steel teams to the edge. Genesect domiantes the current metagame with a lower speed standard and a versatile movepull.

Mega Metagross and Kartana have been hot topics for quick bans and I'd like to address how they are enhanced by Genesect immensely making them seem better than they actually are. Just to clear this up, I'm not saying Mega Metagross and Kartana are bad or not quick ban worthy.

Simply put Mega Metagross appreciates Genesect's ability to punish switches with U-turn. While Mega Metagross can easily outspeed and OHKO many Pokemon because of New Mega Evolution mechanics(allowing it have the base 110 speed during the turn in Mega evolves). However, Mega Metagross also needs to run Hammer Arm to break through certain Steel-Types, namely Ferrothorn. This in turn reduces Mega Metagross' speed which is one of major appeals of Mega Metagross. Genesect has Flamethrower which eliminates most Steel-types that would otherwise wall Mega Metagross or force it to run Hammer Arm. Mega Metagross gets a boost, although a small one from Genesect.

Kartana immensely appreciates Genesect's coverage moves. Kartana has the ability to sweep Ground and Water teams once their Grass resist is gone. Genesect simply gets rid of the Grass resits on Water and Ground with Thunderbolt and Ice Beam respectively. For example Volcanion on Water is something that can take a hit and OHKO Kartana(check it). However, Genesect OHKOs Volcanion with Thunderbolt meaning that Kartana has an easy path to sweep. On Ground Pokemon naively Mega Garchomp which would normally be able to take at hit and OHKO Kartana, Genesect checks with Ice Beam. Kartana seems like it is enjoying the immense amount of good offensive and defensive teammates enhancing its abilities above what they should be.
Conclusion
The dominance of Steel should be closely monitored by the council because an unbalanced metagame is not what the council wants. Removing Genesect is the most direct nerf to Steel because simply it does something in almost every matchup. Genesect seems to be the most logical Pokemon to ban if Steel teams continue to dominate as they have in the first few days of the Sun and Moon Monotype ladder. However, if Steel teams continue to dominate Mega Metagross and Kartana should be looked at more closely.

I already knew that Genesect was a bit of a problem, but Vid's post is what convinced me that Genesect is the main problem with Steel. Yes, Mega Metagross is a very good pokemon, but its effectiveness is amplified by having Genesect as a teammate. I'm not saying Metagrossite won't be banned at some point, but I'd like to see what Steel teams look like without Genesect before Megagross gets banned. It's possible that it'll be more manageable if it doesn't have the most effective offensive pivot in the game on its team.

 

[Balto]

Excuse me , Can someone explain to me why Mega Metagross is on wait.... Have you guys used it before or played against it, I could have really come on this forum and complain and act like a 12 year old kid but I'm so mind boggled so I want someone to explain it to me

On some of these bans, it's definitely better to wait and see how the actual 'meta' develops before banning. IMO i'd like things to be done in the council thoroughly with no rush, so we can avoid suspects/doubts later on down the road. But in this case specifically, it makes sense to evaluate steel w/out genesect before a quickban on metagross.

 

[Ronman5]

Steel is kinda weak to flying so I could see genesect ban hurting steel a bit... all I know is most of the unbanned stuff already got banned with in a week imo

 

[Diakou]

I mean I guess, playing against it is a little cancer at times , def how bulky it seems to be but I honestly don't care because I use it on my steel team so yeah

Steel is kinda weak to flying so I could see genesect ban hurting steel a bit... all I know is most of the unbanned stuff already got banned with in a week imo

Not like Flying is relevant this gen

 

[Ronman5]

Not like Flying is relevant this gen

your going to eat those words.. flying is probably less relevant due to electric gaining massive boosts... not saying mons like celesta aren't bad however... flying in general is still the normal stuff, and steel has hardpressed counters for Zard y or landorus...

 

[Moosical]

Overall I think Z moves hurt the competitiveness of the game because they come out of nowhere, but I have to admit things like this are really fun to use.
e: also this http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-489871501

Going off of this, I pretty much agree. They're a wildcard that you can't really expect, and definitely turn the tides of the battle. Another example, comparing to megazard's z-trick hoopa-u:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-489965645

It's not a very spectacular replay, but it's another z-move that could end up being good. I was speaking with A Tyke about it, and Honchkrow could likely do a similar set, then sweep with sucker+moxie, given that it survives the initial hits.

For whoever wants an explanation:
Tapu Koko @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Mirror Move
- Brave Bird
- Wild Charge
- Protect
Z-mirror move lets you use the z-move version of whatever move was used against you last. So in the replay, I protect against psychic, use z-mirror move, get +2 att, THEN use Shattered Psyche (175 BP), which would allow tapu koko to cleanly sweep a handful of non-scarf/non-resist mons with brave bird or terrain boosted wild charge. For clarification, if this was used off of a physical attack initially, like rock slide, you would get the +2 att and then use continental crush. In the off-chance you don't want to use z-mirror move you could also nuke with supersonic skystrike.

 

[ArkenCiel]

Oh. People posted about Z Drum. While I think it's absolutely ridiculous to have an Azumarill at 0.1% HP to heal all the way to 100% and down to 50, I wouldn't say it'd deserve a ban when we've been dealing with BellyJet Azu for an entire generation now. The same answers still exist for the Pokemon.

On another note, I can agree with the pace the bans are going at the moment. Balto touched base on why the council shouldn't just ban both Genesect and Metagross at the same time when it's their synergy that could be the problem. I still think Metagross should be banned, but it doesn't need to be rushed.

I hate to be the one to bring it up since it represents two of my favorite types, but what do people think about Magearna? Its Soul Heart ability is an improved version of Moxie, allowing to get a boost without having to directly kill a Pokemon, has fantastic typing and bulk to enable a Shift Gear set up, WHICH allows a Timid Variant to outspeed scarf Garchomp, and it has a very colorful movepool for sweeping. 1v6's aren't too uncommon with this Pokemon.

 

[Bitana]

Well, since I tossed in my two cents for Kartana, I'll comment on Magearna too. As I see it, Magearna at the moment is one of the things that has allowed Fairy to climb so high in prominence. Without Magearna, the actual Poison STAB switchs in for Fairy would probably be limited to simply Klefki, certainly nerfing the type.

Arken is right when he refers to Magearna's bulk and power. The typing by itself, along with it's enormous Special Attack guarantees that Rock, Ice and even Dark have no actual switch ins to this Pokemon, particularly at +1. It's bulk also makes revenge killing it specially difficult. Honestly, I'd argue that thanks to all the new Tapus, Fairy now has the ability to sponge Fire and Ground type attacks for Magearna, thus providing support for it's weaknesses. To be frank? I believe that aside from it's slow speed, which once again Arken suggests can be fixed with Shift Gear, this pokemon has no drawbacks aside from having to run Dazzling Gleam if it doesn't wanna Nuke things with Fleur Cannon. (Hell, it even gets Volt Switch for the good ol' slow pivot lol)

The movepool is fantastic, and it has mixed attacking capabilities if it truly wanted to go that way too. Rather scary, if you asked me 0_0.

 

[ScorpionZ]

In my opinion mega metagross just does too much for example: it has many sets that it can run that happens to break types. Types that it just out right beats or does way too much: Poison,grass,ice,rock,normal,fairy and the types it applies too much pressure against are dragon,flying. This shouldn't be something one poke on a mono team should be able to do. It also has considerable bulk and great attack power it can live strong eqs such as scarf excadril which happens to be tied with having the strongest atk stat on steel
252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 236-278 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO and it can also survive a base 150 atk mega swampert's eq which is insane
252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross-Mega: 282-332 (93.6 - 110.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO and its special defense is nothing to be disreguarded either it can live a scarf nidoking's earth power
252 SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 266-314 (88.3 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO even scarf hydreigon which is a strong dark pulse
252 SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross-Mega: 236-278 (78.4 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO another thing is its offensive power lets take a look:
4 SpA Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Slowbro: 182-216 (46.1 - 54.8%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery and it also 2koes mix defensive pory2 which imo is the best set for it
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 198-234 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. These are well known walls in monotype that are just broken easily. I do admit skarmory and mandibuzz walls it but thats only for steel,flying,dark types. Flying gets worn down by rocks so even skarmory becomes an unreliable counter when hit with thunder punch set consistently under rocks. Hippow which is a very good wall in the meta gets easily broken
4 SpA Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 112 SpD Hippowdon: 266-314 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. When I said it applies alot of pressure to dragon i meant this
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Ice Punch vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 368-436 (88.2 - 104.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO dragons best answer to mega meta gross which still gets ohkoed after rocks. By too many sets I meant it can run Meteor mash,Ice punch,Zen headbutt/hammer arm/power up punch,Thunder punch/grass knot which I believe adds to making it too good for the meta which has limited checks to this mon.

 

[Bitana]

^Well, just gonna say this quick, but metagross can't actually run all of those sets at the same time 0_0

 

[ScorpionZ]

^Well, just gonna say this quick, but metagross can't actually run all of those sets at the same time 0_0

Thats not the point, the point is its much like greninja in that regard which it has many options it can run to fit ur team too well

 

[Aschmaros]

Ok now that the second ban wave has just passed I wanna give my thoughts on somethings regarding what they banned and what people think should be banned.

Firstly I'll start with Mega Metagross the center of attention right now. People have been spouting that this thing is monstrous being that needs to be banned fast, but is not looking at it indepth but instead looking at it on the surface. Mega Metagross has shown to do evenly equal or I would go so far to say less than what Mega Scizor could. Hear me out because I know I turned down many people already when I said that, but lets look over the facts. Mega Scizor has recovery which is something Mega Metagross doesn't have. Secondly Mega Metagross and scizor sets up effectively. Thirdly Mega Metagross has only given the edge against types steel already had the advanatage over just like Mega scizor with the addition of maybe one more type depending on the move set (Dragon if it has ice punch, flying if it has thunder punch, etc etc). And finally Mega Scizor also has a better typing than Mega Metagross only having one weakness being fire which is uncommon as of right now while mega metagross having three. Of course people like Eien explained more in depth on mega metagross than I'm willing to go to so if you want you can check out his post which someone has responded to earlier on this page. Also please keep in mind some of these points can be made to Kartana as well but others such as iLlama have went very much in detail on this subject and I heavily recommend you go check out their post on it.

The second thing I want to draw attention too is that the community thinks that z-moves should be banned or some. While Z-moves are indeed powerful they do come with risks. That being that it is a once per battle move and you have to waste a item slot in order to use it. The last point people may point out that Mega Stones were the same way, but their not because Mega Stones provided a permanent buff to the pokemon until the battle ended or that pokemon fainted while most z-moves provided a temporary buff (that being the damage it dealt that turn). Many people have been pointing to Z-Belly Drum and Z-conversion. While on paper these two are insanely good their actually not. Now lets break it down so you guys can see where i'm coming from. Lets start with Z-conversion, now even thought this move functions as basically a ancient power boost for free it is limited to the pokemon that can use it. The main abuser being Porygon-Z making it once again useable on Normal, but Porygon-Z can't do much with this boost in all honesty and paired up with the fact normal isn't a common type anymore like it used to be. Now onto Z-Belly Drum. As people stated above Z-belly drum doesn't do much for azu like the sitrus berry set did. The only difference is that you could use the move at any percentage, but even with this you are still faced with the big penalty of being at 50% health and with azu being in a poor speed tier every type can somewhat deal with it with ease.

Thats all I wanted to say on right now, but i'm sure I will post again later in the future on some of the topics that will arise on this thread.

 

[Entei]

Ok now that the second ban wave has just passed I wanna give my thoughts on somethings regarding what they banned and what people think should be banned.

Firstly I'll start with Mega Metagross the center of attention right now. People have been spouting that this thing is monstrous being that needs to be banned fast, but is not looking at it indepth but instead looking at it on the surface. Mega Metagross has shown to do evenly equal or I would go so far to say less than what Mega Scizor could. Hear me out because I know I turned down many people already when I said that, but lets look over the facts. Mega Scizor has recovery which is something Mega Metagross doesn't have. Secondly Mega Metagross and scizor sets up effectively. Thirdly Mega Metagross has only given the edge against types steel already had the advanatage over just like Mega scizor with the addition of maybe one more type depending on the move set (Dragon if it has ice punch, flying if it has thunder punch, etc etc). And finally Mega Scizor also has a better typing than Mega Metagross only having one weakness being fire which is uncommon as of right now while mega metagross having three. Of course people like Eien explained more in depth on mega metagross than I'm willing to go to so if you want you can check out his post which someone has responded to earlier on this page. Also please keep in mind some of these points can be made to Kartana as well but others such as iLlama have went very much in detail on this subject and I heavily recommend you go check out their post on it.

The second thing I want to draw attention too is that the community thinks that z-moves should be banned or some. While Z-moves are indeed powerful they do come with risks. That being that it is a once per battle move and you have to waste a item slot in order to use it. The last point people may point out that Mega Stones were the same way, but their not because Mega Stones provided a permanent buff to the pokemon until the battle ended or that pokemon fainted while most z-moves provided a temporary buff (that being the damage it dealt that turn). Many people have been pointing to Z-Belly Drum and Z-conversion. While on paper these two are insanely good their actually not. Now lets break it down so you guys can see where i'm coming from. Lets start with Z-conversion, now even thought this move functions as basically a ancient power boost for free it is limited to the pokemon that can use it. The main abuser being Porygon-Z making it once again useable on Normal, but Porygon-Z can't do much with this boost in all honesty and paired up with the fact normal isn't a common type anymore like it used to be. Now onto Z-Belly Drum. As people stated above Z-belly drum doesn't do much for azu like the sitrus berry set did. The only difference is that you could use the move at any percentage, but even with this you are still faced with the big penalty of being at 50% health and with azu being in a poor speed tier every type can somewhat deal with it with ease.

Thats all I wanted to say on right now, but i'm sure I will post again later in the future on some of the topics that will arise on this thread.

Mega metagross's lack of recovery is covered by its excellent overall bulk(which is literally higher than Scizor's also insane bulk, through all defensive stats), and the insane speed tier it hits. Unlike Scizor, it can be unpredictable, it can run a variety of moves thanks to its versitile movepool(dual stab, elemental punches, hammer arm, priority stab, grass knot, eq, ect.). You cant say any of those moves are uncommon, cause they are all highly viable, which covers things both of its respective types need to cover, depends on the user's team, or its general build and what it actually needs to cover.

Also, scizor in many cases relies on its priority move, being Bullet Punch. I feel its kind a lack luster at the moment, mostly because of Tapu Lele, but its still usable because killing with priority isnt the only thing it does. It has gone down in usage and general viability for the reason I just mentioned, but when Tapu Lele gets banned and its back in action, you should use it and see its nothing close to what metagross does.

 

[Thimo]

It's funny you should bring up Darkrai, because that's pretty much how the council feels as well. We just finished voting on our second round of quickbans. Here are the results:

Darkrai: Ban (7/7 voted ban)
Genesect: Ban (5/7 voted ban, 2 voted wait)
Tapu Lele: Wait (2/7 voted ban, 5 voted wait)
Greninja: Wait (2/7 voted ban, 5 voted wait)
Metagrossite: Wait (7/7 voted wait)
Kartana: Wait (7/7 voted wait)

Tagging The Immortal to implement the Darkrai and Genesect bans please.

Greninja being Protean, Battle Bond or both?

 

[readyletsgo]

Going off of this, I pretty much agree. They're a wildcard that you can't really expect, and definitely turn the tides of the battle. Another example, comparing to megazard's z-trick hoopa-u:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-489965645

It's not a very spectacular replay, but it's another z-move that could end up being good. I was speaking with A Tyke about it, and Honchkrow could likely do a similar set, then sweep with sucker+moxie, given that it survives the initial hits.

For whoever wants an explanation:
Tapu Koko @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Mirror Move
- Brave Bird
- Wild Charge
- Protect
Z-mirror move lets you use the z-move version of whatever move was used against you last. So in the replay, I protect against psychic, use z-mirror move, get +2 att, THEN use Shattered Psyche (175 BP), which would allow tapu koko to cleanly sweep a handful of non-scarf/non-resist mons with brave bird or terrain boosted wild charge. For clarification, if this was used off of a physical attack initially, like rock slide, you would get the +2 att and then use continental crush. In the off-chance you don't want to use z-mirror move you could also nuke with supersonic skystrike.

Wait Torkool, are you saying that using Z mirror move not only gives you +2 attack, but also makes mirror move's attack a Z-move? I considered running Z-mirror move but only for the +2 attack. It didn't seem too worth it beyond that. I had no idea it z-attacked AFTER getting +2, that is awesome!

 

[Acast]

Greninja being Protean, Battle Bond or both?

Both. As far as I'm aware, we plan on tiering Greninja's various sets together as one pokemon.