Gen 1 Primeape (UU Mini Revamp) [QC 2/2] [GP 1/1]

Plague von Karma

Banned deucer.
This is part of a project to get rid of the poor quality, misinformation-ridden RBY analyses from over a decade ago. These works are low-priority and should be treated as such.

[OVERVIEW]

Primeape possesses a solid offensive movepool, having access to moves like Rock Slide, Body Slam, and Counter. Additionally, it is the only Fighting-type with access to Electric-type coverage in Thunderbolt, allowing it to threaten Water-types, namely Gyarados. This movepool gives it potentially explosive damage output, possessing 2HKOs on Pokemon like Persian. It also has a solid Speed stat, allowing it to outrun Pokemon like Kangaskhan and Articuno while threatening them with 2HKOs. Furthermore, this Speed provides it with an 18.55% critical hit rate, giving it a degree of volatility that allows it to just muscle past certain matchups.

Unfortunately, the positives end there. Primeape is comically frail by virtue of its poor bulk, taking massive damage from any attack thrown at it. This makes Pokemon that it should check—like the aforementioned Persian—threaten it. Its weakness to Psychic-type attacks combined with this poor bulk makes it easy pickings for Hypno and Kadabra, both of which can potentially OHKO it with their STAB moves. It can also have issues dealing with Flying-types like Dragonite and Dodrio, despite its access to Rock Slide. As if this wasn't enough, its Speed falls just short of tying with tier-king Tentacruel, which effortlessly swats it aside and leaves it vulnerable to chip damage from Wrap. These traits alongside a crippling weakness to paralysis make Primeape a poor fit on any competitive RBY UU team, with Poliwrath being a far superior Fighting-type. Other physical attackers like Persian, Dodrio and especially Kangaskhan can also fulfil Primeape's role just fine.

[SET]
name: All-out Attacker
move 1: Submission
move 2: Body Slam
move 3: Rock Slide
move 4: Hyper Beam / Thunderbolt

[SET COMMENTS]

Submission acts as Primeape's main form of STAB, 2HKOing common Normal-types like Kangaskhan and Persian, albeit with massive recoil in the process. However, Kangaskhan in particular should be checked for Counter first, as Primeape is liable to KO itself if the user predicts poorly. Body Slam allows Primeape to deny potential switch-ins with the threat of paralysis, supporting itself and its teammates. Rock Slide lets Primeape threaten Flying-types, notably 2HKOing Articuno. Hyper Beam allows Primeape to finish off weakened Pokemon, notably KOing Kadabra at a minimum of 74.9%. However, Thunderbolt is extremely helpful against Gyarados, letting Primeape 2HKO it consistently. Ideally, Primeape should be cleaning up late-game to minimize the chance of it getting revenge killed by Pokemon like Kadabra.

Primeape has a plethora of other options worth exploring. Low Kick can be used for its lack of recoil while still maintaining a possible 2HKO on Persian, but the power of Submission is sorely missed in other scenarios, losing out on 2HKOing Kangaskhan and Omastar. Counter gives Primeape the opportunity to check Normal-types more effectively, deterring their use of STAB moves, which especially helps against Persian. Seismic Toss gives Primeape more consistent damage output against Haunter and other low HP targets such as Kadabra. Thunder can give Primeape more damage output against Water-types at the cost of consistency, particularly against Tentacruel, where it deals more damage than its other options. Lastly, Toxic allows Primeape to stop Dragonite from attempting a Wrap sweep if it tries to use Agility.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Plague von Karma, 236353]]
- Quality checked by: [[phoopes, 96315], [Volk, 530877]]
- Grammar checked by: [[Estronic, 240732]]
 
Last edited:

phoopes

I did it again
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Additionally, it is the only Fighting-type with access to Electric-type coverage in Thunderbolt, allowing it to threaten Water-types like Vaporeon.
I don't think Vap is the best example here. Take a look at these calcs...

Primeape Submission vs. Vaporeon: 123-145 (26.5 - 31.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Primeape Thunderbolt vs. Vaporeon: 95-112 (20.5 - 24.1%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
Vaporeon Surf vs. Primeape: 150-177 (45 - 53.1%) -- 30.7% chance to 2HKO

Vap can switch in to any of Primeape's attacks, shrug them off, and threaten back with a 2HKO, with the chance only going up if you're taking recoil damage from Submission. Considering Thunderbolt isn't its strongest attacking move on Vap and only 5HKOs, I think you're better off changing this example to Gyarados, since that's a clean 2HKO. I know you mention it in the next sentence so you'd have to rework the opening paragraph but yeah, Vaporeon kind of just laughs at Primeape.

This movepool gives it potentially explosive damage output, possessing 2HKOs on Pokemon like Persian and Gyarados.
It's true that you do 2HKO Persian, but maybe note that that's probably not going to be happening too often. Persian outspeeds and has a 92.9% chance to 2HKO with Slash, which becomes guaranteed if you factor in Submission recoil damage. So yeah, overall not looking good for Primeape.

Overall, I guess I'd restructure the first paragraph to remove Vaporeon, and focus on it outspeeding and 2HKOing Gyarados, Kangaskhan, and Articuno. Then throw in a mention to the Persian 2HKO and use that to segue into Primeape's flaws, which include its <100 Speed. Which would involve starting the second paragraph by mentioning speed instead of frailty I guess. Also at some point maybe mention Poliwrath as a superior UU Fighting-type. Like yeah Primeape's better speed and attack mean it 2HKOs stuff that Poli doesn't, but also Poli has more utility and bulk which is why it still finds itself UU while Primeape definitely is not. Idk, don't want to make you rewrite/restructure the overview too much but at the very least my biggest gripe is getting rid of the part where it threatens Vaporeon.

Low Kick can be used for its lack of recoil while still maintaining a possible 2HKO on Persian, but the power of Submission is sorely missed in other scenarios.
I'd give examples here, like missing out on the Kangaskhan 2HKO or the potential 2HKO on Omastar.

---

Now that I've made all those comments, I'm honestly starting to rethink Thunderbolt a bit. Since you're really only using it for Gyarados and the odd Poliwrath, since Submission does more damage to Omastar and Vaporeon and Tentacruel outspeeds and neuters Primeape with Wrap. Add in the fact that Rock Slide does more damage to all the Flying-types I calc'd (save Gyarados) and I'm wondering whether Hyper Beam might just be the better option. Something to consider/I'd like to hear your thoughts.
 

Volk

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Here comes another Mono-Fighting QC!

Primeape possesses a solid offensive movepool, having access to moves like Rock Slide, Body Slam and Counter.
Add a comma after "Body Slam."

This makes Pokemon that it should check&mdash;like the aforementioned Persian&mdash;threaten it, with Primeape putting itself into Slash range with Submission recoil.
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this because Slash + Submission Recoil doesn't KO Primeape. Maybe be more vague or just end the sentence after "threaten it."

Its weakness to Psychic-type attacks, combined with this poor bulk, makes it easy pickings for Hypno and Kadabra, both of which can potentially OHKO it with their STABs.
Flying-type Pokemon like Dragonite and Dodrio are also big issues. Maybe mention them in a sentence after this one.

Rock Slide allows Primeape to check Flying-types, notably 2HKOing Articuno.
We'll say "threaten" not "check."

Hyper Beam allows Primeape to finish off weakened Pokemon, notably KOing paralyzed Kadabra at a minimum of 74.9%.
No need to mention Paralysis here.

Primeape does have other options worth exploring.
You got that right. Primeape can also run:
  • Seismic Toss for more consistent damage on Haunter and other low-HP targets like Kadabra.
  • Thunder for a little additional firepower compared to Thunderbolt. See the Tentacruel calc.
  • Toxic in the event that you or a loved one has been diagnosed with an acute case of Agility + Wrap.

Finally, be sure to mention at some point what one might wish to use instead. I'm not sure if this is a big enough factor in these modern analyses, but I think it is important to mention. In Primeape's case, you are mainly looking at Poliwrath (which you did mention), but also other physical attackers like the Normals.

Pretty good analysis overall. Ping me when implemented for the QC.
 

Astra

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[OVERVIEW]

Primeape possesses a solid offensive movepool, having access to moves like Rock Slide, Body Slam, and Counter. Additionally, it is the only Fighting-type with access to Electric-type coverage in Thunderbolt, allowing it to threaten Water-types, namely Gyarados. This movepool gives it potentially explosive damage output, possessing 2HKOs on Pokemon like Persian. It also has a solid Speed stat, allowing it to outrun Pokemon like Kangaskhan and Articuno while threatening them with 2HKOs. Furthermore, this Speed provides it with an 18.55% critical hit rate, giving it a degree of volatility that allows it to just muscle past certain matchups.

Unfortunately, the positives end there. Primeape is comically frail by virtue of its poor bulk, taking massive damage from any attack thrown at it. This makes Pokemon that it should check&mdash;like the aforementioned Persian&mdash;threaten it. Its weakness to Psychic-type attacks, (RC) combined with this poor bulk, (RC) makes it easy pickings for Hypno and Kadabra, both of which can potentially OHKO it with their STABs moves. It can also have issues dealing with Flying-types like Dragonite and Dodrio, despite its access to Rock Slide. As if this wasn't enough, its Speed falls just short of tying with tier-king Tentacruel, which effortlessly swats it aside and leaves it vulnerable to chip damage from Wrap. These traits, (RC) alongside a crippling weakness to paralysis, (RC) make Primeape a poor fit on any competitive RBY UU team, with Poliwrath being a far superior Fighting-type. Other physical attackers&mdash;like Persian, Dodrio and especially Kangaskhan&mdash;can also fulfil Primeape's role just fine.

[SET]
name: All-out Attacker
move 1: Submission
move 2: Body Slam
move 3: Rock Slide
move 4: Hyper Beam / Thunderbolt

[SET COMMENTS]

Submission acts as Primeape's main form of STAB, 2HKOing common Normal-types like Kangaskhan and Persian, albeit with massive recoil in the process. However, Kangaskhan, (RC) in particular, (RC) should be checked for Counter first, as Primeape is liable to KO itself if the user predicts poorly. Body Slam allows Primeape to deny potential switch-ins with the threat of paralysis, supporting itself and its teammates. Rock Slide allows lets Primeape to (less repetition between sentences) threaten Flying-types, notably 2HKOing Articuno. Hyper Beam allows Primeape to finish off weakened Pokemon, notably KOing Kadabra at a minimum of 74.9%. However, Thunderbolt is extremely helpful against Gyarados, letting Primeape 2HKO it consistently. Ideally, Primeape should be cleaning up late-game to minimize the chance of it getting revenge killed by Pokemon like Kadabra.

Primeape has a plethora of other options worth exploring. Low Kick can be used for its lack of recoil while still maintaining a possible 2HKO on Persian, but the power of Submission is sorely missed in other scenarios, losing out on 2HKOing Kangaskhan and Omastar. Counter gives Primeape the opportunity to check Normal-types more effectively, deterring their use of STABs moves, which especially helps against Persian. Seismic Toss gives Primeape more consistent damage output against Haunter and other low HP targets, (RC) such as Kadabra. Thunder can give Primeape more damage output against Water-types at the cost of consistency, particularly against Tentacruel, where it deals more damage than its other options. Lastly, Toxic allows Primeape to stop Dragonite from attempting a Wrap sweep if it tries to use Agility.

[CREDITS]
- Written by: [[Plague von Karma, 236353]]
- Quality checked by: [[phoopes, 96315], [Volk, 530877]]
- Grammar checked by: [[name, id]]
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