Deck Knight
Blast Off At The Speed Of Light! That's Right!
Prior to CAP 2, we had Policy Review thread that discussed in detail what we considered a check and what we considered a counter, and made a proposal to have a threats Discussion after typing, and keep the Counters discussion for after Stats and Ability. Here is the result of that thread:
Necturna's Sketch Artist concept was perhaps the ultimate test we could have imagined for this change, and it worked out wonderfully, giving us clear examples of Pokemon that should Counter the CAP, even a CAP with *any* single move.
I would like to open up this thread for a discussion amongst the PRC members for their thoughts on how the process went, if there are any improvements that can be made, or any other ideas around the process for threats and counters. I have provided links to the Threats and Counters discussions for Necturna below.
Necturna Threats Discussion
Necturna Counters Discussion
I believe this is a sufficient grounds. Seeing the topic has been dormant I assume there are no more amendments, so I'll put this up to 24 hours before the vote begins just in case.
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Ballot:
NO
Poll will close at 8:00 PM EDT on 04/30/2012
Adding a Threats Discussion After Typing:
After the CAP's Typing is decided, we develop a list of Pokemon that threaten the CAP using these parameters (credit DarkSlay):
Questions for Threat Discussion:
Alterations to the Counters Discussion:
Counters Discussion will use the list developed in the Threats Discussion as a base, then reassess to finalize a Hard Counters List. The questions the discussion should answer are:
Questions for Counters Discussion:
The end goal of the Counters discussion will be the basis for limiting Attacking Moves and non-Attacking Moves. A few Pokemon will be selected as Pokemon that should Hard Counter the CAP based on fulfilling three of six criteria:
Criteria for a Hard Counter (Requires 3/6):
Attacking Moves that would turn Pokemon on the CAP's list of Hard Counters into Checks under ordinary circumstances will not be allowed.
Non-Attacking Moves such as stat boosters or Taunt that would turn Pokemon on the CAP's list of Hard Counters into Checks will not be allowed.
Note: If it would take both an attacking and a non-attacking move to alter a Hard Counter, whichever discussion comes first will limit the second discussion.
For example if Dragon Dance + Close Combat would make a Hard Counter unable to do so, where neither Dragon Dance nor Close Combat alone would do so (e.g. Only +1 LO CC OHKOs, but the counter is ordinarily faster and can OHKO the CAP after taking a +0 LO Hit from Close Combat) then if Dragon Dance is selected first, Close Combat cannot be selected. If Close Combat is selected first, then Dragon Dance cannot be selected.
After the CAP's Typing is decided, we develop a list of Pokemon that threaten the CAP using these parameters (credit DarkSlay):
Questions for Threat Discussion:
- Going specifically by typing, what Pokemon found in the OU (or relevant) metagame will be able to comfortably give this CAP project trouble?
- What Pokemon will be major threats to this project right off the bat? What Pokemon have the potential to become counters? What Pokemon may end up as threats, but must be contained or dealt with per the concept?
- Will the concept succeed with these set list of threats? Is this list of threats acceptable for the project?
- What Pokemon will be threatened by the CAP based off of typing? Are these Pokemon targets that we want CAP to hit? Will these targets be "unavoidable" to threaten based solely on the typing?
- What direction must the project go in now that a set list of basic threats has been identified? What must be done in order to make these threats "wanted counters" or these threats be eliminated from counter discussion? What Pokemon do we want this project to counter entirely?
Alterations to the Counters Discussion:
Counters Discussion will use the list developed in the Threats Discussion as a base, then reassess to finalize a Hard Counters List. The questions the discussion should answer are:
Questions for Counters Discussion:
- With now a combination of typing, ability, and stat pool, which previously defined threats are considered hard counters to the project? Basic counters? Checks?
- Are the Pokemon that are currently able to counter the project the Pokemon we want/need to counter the project? If not, what must be done to handle these Pokemon? Is it unavoidable?
- What Pokemon have arisen in discussions that were not brought up before? As in, are there Pokemon that counter/check this concept on concepts that are not focused around its typing? Where should they be placed in the discussion?
- Which Pokemon have been taken out of the counters discussion due to the stat pool and ability?
- Which Pokemon have moved from threats purely by typing to checks? To neutral match-ups?
- Which Pokemon are now countered by the project fully? Which are checked by the project? Which have become neutral match-ups against the project?
- With this set list of counters and checks, does this fulfill the concept's goal?
The end goal of the Counters discussion will be the basis for limiting Attacking Moves and non-Attacking Moves. A few Pokemon will be selected as Pokemon that should Hard Counter the CAP based on fulfilling three of six criteria:
Criteria for a Hard Counter (Requires 3/6):
- Can switch into this CAP's Strongest reliable STAB attacks at least three times from full health.
- Can switch into this CAP's strongest possible coverage move at least twice from full health.
- Can stall this CAP indefinitely using its recovery options either forcing the CAP out or healing enough that the stalling Pokemon can alternate between recovery and attacking.
- Can OHKO or 2HKO the CAP with one of the moves on that Pokemon's relevant official Smogon moveset.
- Can cripple this CAP with a permanent status move without risking a OHKO.
- Can set up, use hazards, weather, or otherwise execute an opponent's strategy without risking a 2HKO.
Attacking Moves that would turn Pokemon on the CAP's list of Hard Counters into Checks under ordinary circumstances will not be allowed.
Non-Attacking Moves such as stat boosters or Taunt that would turn Pokemon on the CAP's list of Hard Counters into Checks will not be allowed.
Note: If it would take both an attacking and a non-attacking move to alter a Hard Counter, whichever discussion comes first will limit the second discussion.
For example if Dragon Dance + Close Combat would make a Hard Counter unable to do so, where neither Dragon Dance nor Close Combat alone would do so (e.g. Only +1 LO CC OHKOs, but the counter is ordinarily faster and can OHKO the CAP after taking a +0 LO Hit from Close Combat) then if Dragon Dance is selected first, Close Combat cannot be selected. If Close Combat is selected first, then Dragon Dance cannot be selected.
Necturna's Sketch Artist concept was perhaps the ultimate test we could have imagined for this change, and it worked out wonderfully, giving us clear examples of Pokemon that should Counter the CAP, even a CAP with *any* single move.
I would like to open up this thread for a discussion amongst the PRC members for their thoughts on how the process went, if there are any improvements that can be made, or any other ideas around the process for threats and counters. I have provided links to the Threats and Counters discussions for Necturna below.
Necturna Threats Discussion
Necturna Counters Discussion
Basically it's Dusk's last Proposal along with bmb's end product of Pokemon the CAP should threaten.Proposal: In the threats discussion stage, which occurs after the typing polls conclude, the community and TL decide upon a list of Pokemon which should reliably, occasionally, and situationally check and counter the CAP. The extent to which each threat should handle the CAP should be discussed thoroughly in the thread, and a final post should be made by the TL to ensure that everyone's on the same page come the discussion's conclusion.
A general idea of what the CAP should threaten should also be an end product of the Threats discussion in addition to identifying those threats that can reliably, occasionally, and situationally check and counter the CAP.
The counters discussion stage becomes non-mandatory. It can be invoked by either the TL or the forum moderators based on their interpretation of how the CAP has proceeded since the threats discussion stage. If the CAP has gone awry, they may have the discussion to get it back on track and/or discuss additional/changed checks and counters as needed by the particular CAP.
I believe this is a sufficient grounds. Seeing the topic has been dormant I assume there are no more amendments, so I'll put this up to 24 hours before the vote begins just in case.
- - - - -
Ballot:
YESProposal: In the threats discussion stage, which occurs after the typing polls conclude, the community and TL decide upon a list of Pokemon which should reliably, occasionally, and situationally check and counter the CAP. The extent to which each threat should handle the CAP should be discussed thoroughly in the thread, and a final post should be made by the TL to ensure that everyone's on the same page come the discussion's conclusion.
A general idea of what the CAP should threaten should also be an end product of the Threats discussion in addition to identifying those threats that can reliably, occasionally, and situationally check and counter the CAP.
The counters discussion stage becomes non-mandatory. It can be invoked by either the TL or the forum moderators based on their interpretation of how the CAP has proceeded since the threats discussion stage. If the CAP has gone awry, they may have the discussion to get it back on track and/or discuss additional/changed checks and counters as needed by the particular CAP.
NO
Poll will close at 8:00 PM EDT on 04/30/2012