Palkia (Revamp - GP 2/2)

shrang

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[OVERVIEW]
Palkia doesn't offer much defensive utility compared to other reliable Primal Kyogre switch-ins such as Primal Groudon and Latios, which makes fitting it onto a team difficult. It also struggles to contribute against highly offensive teams because it can't really switch in on any offensive Pokemon well other than Primal Kyogre. However, Palkia is still one of the best Primal Kyogre switch-ins, and it isn't afraid of Pursuit or Steel- and Dark-types nearly as much as its main competitors Latios and Latias. Additionally, in contrast to its lackluster performance against offense, Palkia is an excellent weapon against more defensive teams, as it can destroy most potential switch-ins with its power and wide coverage. If its defensive shortcomings are properly covered, Palkia is a formidable foe.

[SET]
name: All-out Attacker
move 1: Spacial Rend
move 2: Hydro Pump
move 3: Thunder
move 4: Focus Punch / Fire Blast
item: Life Orb
ability: Pressure
nature: Timid
evs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========
With decent Speed, massive Special Attack, and a wide assortment of coverage moves to back up its powerful STAB attacks, Palkia is a very effective wallbreaker. Spacial Rend is the chief STAB option for its power and reliability, easily 2HKOing Primal Groudon and most other Pokemon that don't resist it. Hydro Pump also gets STAB and complements Spacial Rend well, taking out most Fairy- and Steel-types that would try to stomach Spacial Rend in one or two hits. It is also slightly more powerful than Spacial Rend against targets neutral to both moves. Thunder allows Palkia to reliably 2HKO Primal Kyogre, even through a Calm Mind boost assuming Stealth Rock is up. Lugia and Water Arceus are both reliably 2HKOed by Thunder as well, and the 30% chance of paralysis works as a strong deterrent against trying to stall out Palkia with recovery moves. Focus Punch allows Palkia to OHKO Blissey on the switch, which otherwise takes all of Palkia's attacks with ease. Ferrothorn also takes massive damage from Focus Punch, though it won't be OHKOed and Palkia will take significant recoil damage in return from Life Orb and Iron Barbs. If Klefki and Ferrothorn are more pressing concerns than Blissey, Fire Blast can be used instead of Focus Punch to destroy them both, though it should be noted that Klefki already takes massive damage from Hydro Pump. Fire Blast also hits the rare Grass Arceus for heavy damage.

Draco Meteor is also an option over Spacial Rend for a stronger Dragon-type STAB attack. It can be useful to get a guaranteed OHKO on Latias and to do more immediate damage to Primal Groudon and Dialga, but aside from that it doesn't get any KOs that Special Rend or Palkia's other attacks don't already manage. The drop in Special Attack after using Draco Meteor also gives sweepers such as Geomancy Xerneas and Rock Polish Primal Groudon an opening to set up on Palkia, which makes the consistency of Spacial Rend more appealing.


Set Details
========
Palkia needs the power of Life Orb to guarantee 2HKOs on Pokemon such as defensive Primal Groudon with Spacial Rend. A Timid nature boosts Palkia's Speed without lowering its defenses—Focus Punch still destroys Blissey even with the drop in Attack, so running a Hasty nature isn't necessary. Palkia should always run a nature that boosts Speed, as many Latios and support Arceus formes do not run Speed-boosting natures themselves due to the relative scarcity of Pokemon in the base 100 Speed tier, giving Palkia an easier time dealing with them.


Usage Tips
========
Palkia is pretty easy to use. Just bring it in against Primal Kyogre—or at least some defensive Pokemon slower than it—and start launching attacks. Try to predict what your opponent will switch in, as Palkia will generally be hitting most things for a 2HKO. For example, a common scenario is Palkia going up against a team with Primal Groudon and a Fairy-type such as Klefki or Xerneas, both of which which take no damage from one of Palkia's STAB attacks and massive damage from the other. In this case, predicting which of the two the opponent might be more willing to preserve can help you choose which attack to use. Predicting the switch to Blissey isn't super important when using Focus Punch because it likes to forgo attacks to run Snatch, but it is still worth trying so Palkia doesn't take an unnecessary Toxic.


Team Options
========
Palkia likes entry hazard support to help deal with walls such as Lugia, as well as switch-ins to Fairy- and Dragon-type attacks. Primal Groudon is a solid answer to Fairy-types such as Xerneas and Klefki and also provides Stealth Rock support. In return, Palkia can come in against Primal Kyogre when Desolate Land is not active. Steel-types such as Klefki, Bronzong, and Aegislash have great synergy with Palkia, tanking Dragon- and Fairy-type attacks with ease while Palkia provides a switch-in to Fire- and Water-type moves in return. Klefki and Bronzong are especially useful because they provide Spikes and Stealth Rock respectively to help Palkia secure important KOs. Pokemon such as Rock Arceus, Dialga, Lugia, and Tyranitar can also help handle physical Dragon-types such as Mega Salamence. Deoxys-S is a solid partner for more offensive teams because it can provide both Stealth Rock and Spikes.

Trapping support can also be useful to take down specific foes Palkia may run into trouble against. Mega Gengar can eliminate Pokemon such as Grass Arceus and Fairy Arceus that Palkia can struggle to damage effectively. Mega Gengar can also take out Blissey if it lacks Shed Shell and Palkia doesn't want to use Focus Punch. Pursuit support from Tyranitar, Aegislash, or Mega Scizor can eliminate pesky targets such as Timid Latios, Latias, Deoxys-A, and Mega Gengar, all of which are faster than Palkia and can possibly revenge kill it. All of them appreciate Palkia's ability to switch into Primal Kyogre as well.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
========
Palkia can use Lustrous Orb to boost its STAB moves without having to deal with Life Orb recoil, but it will miss out on 2HKOs against Calm Mind Primal Kyogre, Lugia, and defensive Primal Groudon, which makes Life Orb preferable. Trick Room can let Palkia turn the tables against hyper offense teams and would-be revenge killers, but it struggles to set it up effectively. Thunder Wave is a decent option to harass Pokemon such as Lugia and faster Arceus formes with Calm Mind that might otherwise be able to stall out Palkia, and it also prevents Xerneas from being able to set up on Palkia. Dragon Tail can be used to prevent setup attempts from Calm Mind and Swords Dance Arceus formes while harassing Blissey in conjunction with entry hazard support. Earth Power is a perfectly accurate attack that does more damage to Primal Groudon than Spacial Rend and hits Klefki harder than Hydro Pump but otherwise has little utility. Choice Specs gives Palkia an even bigger power boost than Life Orb but is generally not recommended because common Pokemon are immune to at least one of its STAB moves, making it easy for something like Rock Polish Primal Groudon or Geomancy Xerneas to set up.

Checks and Counters
========
**Faster Arceus Formes**: Arceus formes that aren't weak to Palkia's STAB attacks and are EVed to be faster than it are probably its most reliable checks. Fairy Arceus is immune to Spacial Rend and can Recover off Hydro Pump damage until Palkia runs out of PP, and Judgment is an easy OHKO. If Fairy Arceus has Calm Mind, it can also set up on Palkia. However, Hydro Pump will still do a lot of damage to Fairy Arceus if it connects on the switch, and if it is slower than Palkia it will lose. Grass Arceus is in a similar situation, though it trades the Spacial Rend immunity for a resistance to Hydro Pump, and it will take massive damage from Fire Blast if Palkia has it. Ghost Arceus isn't weak to any of Palkia's attacks and can try to set up Calm Mind against it. Ice Arceus and Dark Arceus can do something similar, but they need to watch out for Focus Punch.

**Faster Pokemon**: Powerful Pokemon that are faster than 328 Speed can usually revenge kill Palkia with ease, even if they can't switch in too well, with Mega Salamence, Mewtwo, Mega Lucario, Swords Dance Arceus formes, Mega Diancie, and Deoxys-A being some good examples. Mega Gengar can also trap a weakened Palkia and pick it off with a STAB attack or Destiny Bond. Darkrai can also put Palkia to sleep with Dark Void and then beat it down with Dark Pulse. Pokemon with Choice Scarf such as Landorus-T and Genesect can also do the trick against a weakened Palkia. Palkia similarly doesn't enjoy taking priority moves such as Extreme Speed from Rayquaza or Arceus and Sucker Punch from Yveltal.

**Paralysis**: Palkia's decent base 100 Speed is one of its best assets, so paralyzing it can make it easy to revenge kill. Specially defensive Primal Groudon, Klefki, and defensive Jirachi can all take one hit from Palkia and paralyze it with Thunder Wave. However, Primal Groudon is 2HKOed by Spacial Rend, and Fire Blast will destroy Klefki and Jirachi.

**Latias and Latios**: Timid Latias and Latios can switch in on any move other than Spacial Rend and then outspeed Palkia and OHKO it with Draco Meteor. Latias is also bulky enough to survive a Spacial Rend at full HP in case the Palkia user predicts the switch.

**Ferrothorn**: Ferrothorn resists Palkia's STAB attacks and can stall it out with Leech Seed. However, Ferrothorn will be 2HKOed by either STAB attack followed by Focus Punch, so it may need to play some mindgames with Palkia to successfully beat it. It should also be noted that Ferrothorn completely fails as a check if Palkia has Fire Blast.

**Xerneas**: Xerneas is immune to Spacial Rend, is bulky enough to survive one Hydro Pump, and can either use Moonblast immediately to KO Palkia or set up Geomancy first. However, Xerneas cannot switch directly in on Hydro Pump, as it will be 2HKOed.

**Lugia**: Lugia hates Thunder and can't really switch into Palkia if it lacks Multiscale, but if Lugia is at full HP it can use Toxic and Multiscale to stall Palkia out. Thunder also isn't terribly accurate, so Lugia can fish for misses.

**Blissey**: Blissey completely walls Palkia if it lacks Focus Punch and can stall it out with Toxic. If Blissey has Seismic Toss, it can make use of it to keep Palkia from successfully using Focus Punch if it's healthy enough to take Palkia's other attacks.

**Dialga**: Dialga resists Hydro Pump and is bulky enough to take a Spacial Rend, OHKOing Palkia in return with Draco Meteor. Spacial Rend 2HKOes Dialga, though, so it needs to be very careful when it decides to come in.

**Clefable**: Clefable is 2HKOed by Hydro Pump but can come in on any other move and OHKO Palkia with Moonblast.

**Entry Hazards**: Stealth Rock and Spikes will wear down Palkia quickly in conjunction with Life Orb damage.

 
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Uhhh is this a new set idea or a replacement to the current one?

I'm unsure of its viability (offensive with dtail does a similar job at the cost of xern bait...this set doesn't change that) you got a team or replays of the set? I'm open to the idea cause its a D rank mon (for now) but the reasoning seems to match the reasons on the offensive set's analysis.

e: life orb thunder sounds pretty troll to actually 1v1 kyogre...
 

shrang

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I'd prefer if it just replaced the old one tbh. Lustrous is too hard to use these days.
 

Inspirited

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The deal with this is you have to choose between it and Lava Plume Rest Talk Roar Groudon in which Groudon is almost always better due to its ability to phaze a set up Geoxern as well as Kyogre. There is merit in threatening Toxic on Geoxern though but its very prediction reliant and Kyogre can 3HKO SpD Palkia at +1 (offensive CM) 100% if a hazard is up and 12.5% of the time without. This makes Resting with Palkia have some risk to it and although that Primal Don has the same issue, it at least has a 33% chance to phaze Kyogre with Sleep Talk while it is Resting. Using this with SR Primal Don is the only prospect I see, but you have to consider that you need your secondary water resist to do more than just check Kyogre. The only thing to write about here is that Gothitelle cannot open this thing up which, while nice, doesn't add to the versatility the water resist slot will need 99% of the time. It will still be a handicap to use in close to the 90th percentile of match-ups and isn't worth using on a serious team because of this imo, but that is indeed better than the set present so I guess a QC 1/3 is in order.
QC_stamp.gif
 
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aite things seem slow here... maybe we could get both this set AND a life orb set up and just have this as a full revamp? idk

I'd like to see other QC opinions here... steelphoenix Fireburn Hack you guys are active(?), what are your thoughts on this set/mon in general? The current set on site is Lustrous Orb for reference, would either life orb or this set work over it?
 

Fireburn

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Honestly, I don't like this set much. Even with full investment it isn't reliable at taking on CM POgres (+1 Thunder has an 83% chance to 2HKO after SR), and it massively squanders the main thing Palkia is good at doing which is abusing its 150 SpA + amazing coverage to threaten almost everything. I have to agree with Hack that Blissey is better on the teams you'd want to use this on.

Life Orb is decent and is probably better than Lustrous Orb. It's still not THAT reliable at taking on CM 3-Atks POgre (back in Gen 4, one of the perks of that set was beating Palkia, lol) since you do need SR to 2HKO +1 Ogre with Thunder while its own +1 Thunder chunks you for 67-80%, but what it is good at doing is absolutely destroying the common balance teams springing up as of late that rely on slow Arceus Defoggers and opt for Modest Latios.

You can definitely make a good case that 4 Attacks Latios can do a similar thing with more speed + power + defensive utility, but LOPalkia does have some small (though neat) advantages that make it not totally outclassed:

1) It takes Origin Pulse (25% vs 40%) and Ice Beam (40% vs 61%) better than Latios, so it's a bit better at being a pivot switch vs Ogre to get your PDon back in.
2) No Pursuit weakness - nothing to fear from Tyranitar or Aegislash, the former of which is at least common on stall.
3) No Ghost weakness makes it harder for Gengar to RK. Stuff like Tina-O Sneak won't quite cut it either.
4) Strong Water STAB is helpful - Palkia doesn't have to rely on Draco Meteor nearly as much as Latios does, which makes taking advantage of it after a kill somewhat harder. It also OHKOes fast Ho-Ohs which is definitely a nice thing to threaten.

4 Atks Latios also usually goes Modest which invalidates the speed advantage it has over Palkia for the most part.

With U-turn support from things like Scarf Rachi/Lando (these all share good synergy) this gets plenty of chances to come in and own something.

I like this set:

Palkia @ Life Orb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Spacial Rend
- Thunder
- Focus Punch

Life Orb boosted Hydro Pump is more than enough of a deterrent for Xerneas and you need Thunder for Ogres and Water Arcs, so no real need to run TWave. Palkia is faster than the standard Lugia (usually only goes for Jolly Rayquaza) so it helps you muscle past that too.

And yes, that is Focus Punch in slot 4. I think it might be a little better than Fire Blast tbh, since Fire Blast is mostly for Ferrothorn, because apparently that mon is good with PDon/Ho-Oh/Mega Sab running around, and FP gives you utility vs stall with a little prediction. Unlike absolute best wallbreaker in the tier Kyurem-W, Palkia can OHKO Blissey with a well placed Focus Punch on the switch, making it an actual threat to standard stall which is a very nice change of pace! Ferrothorn is really the only thing you'd miss Fire Blast for, not like Klefki or Skarmer wanna come in on Hydro Pump. Even then, Ferrothorn takes 73.8 - 87.2% for FP, so if it's taken a STAB move on the switch it will probably die.

I don't want to oversell this mon since it still isn't the best thing ever and most of the time Latis are way easier to slot into a team. That being said, LO Palkia is at least decent and I think it is this thing's best chance at being effective in the metagame atm. I also don't know what Trick Room is doing better...it doesn't seem like it ever has a good chance to set up vs standard HO and against any slower teams the LO set is just as if not more effective, is it not?

(oh yeah I'm rejecting sdef set btw it sucks)
 

steelskitty

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rejecting the SDef set since it's really not as good as it was in XY. i like fireburn's idea for the set but i think tr palkia deserves an oo mention at least because nothing really /outclasses/ it and the move makes up for a speed tier that's only slightly above average; it's still nice for "outpacing" stuff like mega diancie or latias (which currently creeps palkia on its analysis, i believe...maybe that should be changed?) on magic sun and it can set up on stuff like pdon or waterceus. i imagine the set would look like spacial rend / fire blast/trick room/hydro pump like it has in previous gens (maybe thunder>fire blast, but tr palkia isn't really a consistent ogre answer anyway so it seems a tad silly to run that).
 

Minority

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i think tr palkia deserves an oo mention at least because nothing really /outclasses/ it
It's outclassed by Dialga which actually checks other things. You need Thunder and even then you're not a great Ogre check and there's bad 4MSS so it ends up struggling to fit Hydro Pump. I'd pretty much never use this mon because there are other offensive water resists that actually check things, but I guess the fast LO set is the best because at least you might be able to surprise 252 Lati and maybe put some hurt on balance teams where Klefki is their primary SpD mon.
 

steelskitty

you deserve so much more than this
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It's outclassed by Dialga which actually checks other things. You need Thunder and even then you're not a great Ogre check and there's bad 4MSS so it ends up struggling to fit Hydro Pump. I'd pretty much never use this mon because there are other offensive water resists that actually check things, but I guess the fast LO set is the best because at least you might be able to surprise 252 Lati and maybe put some hurt on balance teams where Klefki is their primary SpD mon.
I disagree with a lot of this actually.

For starters, it's not entirely inferior to TR Dialga. It trades one set of resistances and weaknesses for another; it is not outclassed by Dialga from a defensive standpoint, they just fit on different sorts of teams. Palkia isn't isn't offensively outclassed by Dialga either, and there are two reasons for this. The first and less important is that its higher speed tier and offensive typing enables it to force out more things when it's unscouted; most notably, Palkia scares out Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, unboosted Arceus-Ground, and Excadrill. The other reason is that it has better coverage; Water/Dragon is excellent in this meta and Palkia virtually does in two moves (Rend/HPump) what Dialga needs three (DM/Flash Cannon/Fire Blast or Thunder) to accomplish.

I don't think TR Palkia has difficulty fitting Thunder. It comes down to that or Fire Blast, and Fire Blast's only targets are the (borderline irrelevant) uncommon Ferrothorn and the (definitely irrelevant) rare Arceus-Grass. I don't think it needs Thunder either; the move only hits Primal Kyogre (which you can still check by TRing on, Rending once or twice, and RKing with a slower mon) and Arceus-Water (which has no business staying in anyway if it hasn't first scouted you thoroughly). The point about 4MSS is really questionably valid and the insinuation that you need to drop Hydro Pump is absurd. Palkia hits enough with its STABs alone that the third move is really only needed for one or two targets.

Honestly, TR Palkia puts more of a strain on the generic magic sun team than the regular LO set does. The 252 Speed Life Orb set can get outpaced by Latias or rendered useless by Klefki or outpaced and OHKO'd by Mega Diancie; Palkia under TR has none of these problems. I also wouldn't leave a Latios or Latias in on Palkia in the first place unless I knew I EV'd it to be faster. Palkia "surprising" Latios/Latias by being faster only works if your opponent is an idiot or doesn't know their own EV spreads.

tldr I still advocate for TR Palkia to get at least an OO mention, possibly even a slash.
 

Minority

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Yea it is pretty inferior to TR Dialga. You give up the Flying resist and gain a Dragon weakness for Water STAB, which isn't that great in this meta. How are you going to say that the higher base Speed is a positive on a TR mon? The higher Speed makes you worse under TR, especially against things like P Don. It's a bit worrying you didn't mention Klefki at all in regards to Fire Blast (OHKOs after SR) but mention Ferrothorn and Arceus-Grass. There are also some clutch KOs you grab on some arbitrary things like Aegislash, Shaymin-S, Jirachi, and Bronzong, so yea Palkia kinda does want Fire Blast and Thunder. Because of Palkia's higher Speed and because Dialga can afford to run Shuca, Palkia doesn't really force P Don or Exca out any more than Dialga does. In regards to what you say about the LO set, your argument is pretty much that TR Palkia does better against balance teams because it does better against Klefki and Mega Diancie, except that the LO set can OHKO both of those on switch in anyways. When I talked about Lati I wasn't talking about a situation where the opponent even had switching as a good option (late game / no solid switches to go to). This mon sucks either way, it's just a matter of hammering out what sucks more.
 

Fireburn

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Trick Room is fine for OO.

shrang did you still wanna do this? It doesn't look like the sdef set is gonna get improved. If you wanna do a full revamp of palker with the lo set I'd be cool with it.
 
tr palkia is definitely worse than dialga. hitting arc-ground (plus other minor hydro benefits) vs the ability to check mence / actually be a better ogre check / espeed resist / non diancie/xern weak defensive typing... life orb fast is the way to go if ur gonna try and use this mon. oh and u lose the toxic immunity aka "arc-water stall me ez pz plz" vs "do minimal dmg to me and i can para u"
 
p.s. plz don't try to argue that arc-water can't tox stall palkia when u can get a toxic off on the switch or as u set tr and u can bounce vs mons p easily and it's a 70% move and u have life orb it's a minor point
 
i'm not saying u beat it 1v1 but i mean lol it's so common and ur prone to gettin neutered quite easily. fireburn's set seems best. OP set seems too do nothing.
 

shrang

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Okay then. I'll be on holidays overseas for the next 2 weeks, so don't expect any updates on this, but I'll try and work on it.
 
Fire Blast deserves either a slash after Focus Punch or, at minimum, the first mention in OO. It still gives Palkia terrific coverage and hits Aegi / Jirachi / Ferro brutally hard.


Remove the Choice Scarf mention from OO. Also remove Waterceus from Checks & Counters, it's not a LO Palkia check.

QC 1/3
 

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