Now that Custap Berry is released, what do we think about Custap Skarm, Foretress, Shuckle, etc.?
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OU Analyses Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Jukain
- Start date
using forretress or skarmory is based off your team's needs. both need to emphasize how mega sableye can just lead off. forretress and skarmory should be running steel stab imo for mega diancie regardless. the draw of forretress is explosion allowing it to get hazards up safely. skarmory has taunt, however. ive used froslass and the thing that annoyed me is that it's limited to spikes, so i see them both viable, but predictability seems like a problem, unlike froslass which can just destiny bond its way past priority users to pressure leads like mega metagross and grit spikes up because losing vital mons like this really sucks especially when they are your only way to stop froslass.
this might seem odd but i don't really like hp fire on magneton. is there any other option? tying with +1 adamant gyara / m-gyara is terrible bc one of the reasons to use magneton over magnezone is to revenge faster mons, if you want a designated steel trapper for help against bulkier teams id go with zone. i get the utility of being able to damage and trap ferro/zor while also beating fast mons but i also think their niches over each other should be more established in the moveset. even if it's just for discussion purposes, i still don't like hp fire on scarf magneton.
Considering that Scarf Magneton outspeeds +1 DD Dragonite and none of its other options can even KO it after SR, I was wondering why HP Ice wasn't an option. HP Ice is also Magneton's best option against SpD Gliscor and Landoge, since Flash Cannon doesn't do that much jack. That's pretty much it unless you wanna really pick at straws with Toxic or Thunder Wave (Magneton can status something before it dies and after it finishes killing steels I guess).
Sergeant Spooky
Those have already been removed on-site ages ago. Instead, if you have a change that you noticed on-site actually, let it be known here and I'll do it ASAP.
Those have already been removed on-site ages ago. Instead, if you have a change that you noticed on-site actually, let it be known here and I'll do it ASAP.
Might I ask why exactly Foretress is considered not viable? I know it's setup fodder for a lot of sweepers and Mega Sableye is very bad for it, but otherwise it does its job quite well.
Because it just sits there and has no way of threatening opposing Pokémon. All it does is set up rocks and spin. Sure, it's defenses are nice and it can tank hits, but it doesn't really matter when it has no way of threatening a ting, and no way of deterring set up outside of toxic. Additionally, SpDef Excadrill does the Steel type spinner / rocker bulky thing role better, while also having a pretty strong EQ and the ability to get past mega Sab with toxic. Forretress just doesn't do anything that another mon can't do better.
To my knowledge, one of the biggest reasons is that Forretress is outclassed by a combination of Ferrothorn, Skarmory, and Excadrill, who all offer similar qualities.
- Skarmory has a generally more useful typing, particularly with its Ground-type immunity, and it doesn't possess a crippling 4x weakness to Fire-type moves (which are even more common now than they were back when Forretress was actually being considered for an analysis like a year ago). Defog is also a lot more reliable than Rapid Spin, and Skarmory's access to Roost means it can actually wall things rather than passively tank hits.
- Excadrill is like 50x more threatening than Forretress but offers really similar utility, especially sets like the specially defensive one (which beats Sableye on the switch, something Forretress could only hope to do). It can't tank physical hits as well as Forretress but defensively its typing is nowhere near lacking and it often makes up for what it can't do defensively by threatening a lot of common Pokemon and being a much harder Pokemon to switch in on.
- Ferrothorn lacks hazard removal but it still overshadows Forretress in every other role. It does have an exploitable Fighting-type weakness, but it's not like Forretress is that much of a better solution to the majority of users of Fighting-type moves in the tier. Ferrothorn's phenomenal secondary Grass typing, access to Leech Seed, Iron Barbs, a stronger Gyro Ball, and Power Whip gives it an edge offensively, defensively, and in terms of longevity.
That's fair enough, but afaik there isn't another OU 'mon with all of SR, Spikes, Rapid Spin, and Sturdy(goes great with Custap). Also, maybe it's just me but I don't mind having one dedicated utility Pokemon and then not having to spend two separate Pokemon on have hazards and another to have hazard removal. When you have one Pokemon for both then it opens up a sort of freedom that I really like to have i team building. About Forretress vs SpD Exca, it's wrong to say there's "nothing" Forretress can do that SpD Excadrill can't when Forretress has access to Spikes, Sturdy+Custap, and superior physical bulk and typing. You guys can say it's not viable if you want, but my opinion is that it does have a niche.
EDIT: Skarm does have access to double hazards, but with Defog it ends up removing said hazards.
Have a niche as it may, is that niche significant to the point you'd use it on a team over a different Pokemon?
niche = viable in my book
As long as you build a team with sufficient support that allows the 'mon to use that niche, I don't see why that doesn't consitute being viable.
To somewhat echo what Ununhexium said and supplement it with some history, the precedent for evaluating Pokemon for analyses has always been that niche =/= viability, and viability is what we use to judge whether or not a Pokemon is worth using. If we were to go by niche, you'd have OU analyses popping up for things like Masquerain because it has all of Intimidate, Sticky Web, Quiver Dance, and Baton Pass, which is an impressive niche, but not viable due to its overall poor performance.
This is pretty inefficient because against a good opponent you will rarely have the freedom to fulfill both tasks at once, which is often essential, considering Stealth Rock alone is one of the most important and consequential moves in the game, not to mention hazards as a whole. You'll see similar precedent analyses for Pokemon like Excadrill and Skarmory where using hazards alongside hazard removal is generally discouraged. It's an example of putting all of your eggs in one basket.Josh Morales said:
Competitive Pokemon is just that: competitive, with an intent to win in the most reliable and definite way possible. Why build a team with more support than necessary to supplement a niche that can be fulfilled in more efficient ways? By doing so, you are guaranteed to sacrifice move slots, team slots, and live plays that could have been better spent accomplishing the same goal in a better manner. Using Forretress introduces disadvantages into your team that generally cannot be made up, and as an individual Pokemon, Forretress does not carry enough niches, surprise value, or potential synergy to set it apart from Pokemon that can achieve similar things with better efficiency, more consistent results, and less reliance on intensive support.
There's a lot of things that technically have a niche that shouldn't get an analysis. Aromatisee and Lickylicky are clerics that can't get Taunted but doesn't constitute an analysis what so ever. You can only use the argument of having a niche so much if there's actually some key merit to it. If the support necessary is more detrimental to the point you're better off using something else, then why bother using it? Also on Skarmory's double hazard Custap set with attack and speed (which is good btw for those reading), is used on HO teams anyways so it's not using hazard removal because it's used on completely different arch-types with a set that has more speed than Forretress, ground immunity which is actually pretty important due to the relevancy of spikes, and also has utility in Taunt if the necessity arises.
Sort of ninja'd but the point being is that it's really not worth the time and effort to use something that is practically outclassed in so many facets while excelling at only a level of extreme mediocrity.
Sort of ninja'd but the point being is that it's really not worth the time and effort to use something that is practically outclassed in so many facets while excelling at only a level of extreme mediocrity.
I disagree from my experience. Empirical evidence is insufficient in the face of rational evidence, but my rationalization of my opinion that that if a Pokemon has a merit over all other suchly used Pokemon(look at your list above, Forretress has at the very least one merit or more over all of your aforementioned 'mons) and it's feasible to provide sufficient support on a well built team to let that Pokemon function successfully(being capable of functioning successfully is the literal definition of "viable" after all), then it is viable.
Fair enough, that makes sense, but you're wrong in saying that's a bad thing. It's a trade and overall it's neither good or bad. You dedicate one Pokemon for utility and it opens up the ability of the rest of your team to synergize even more strongly because you don't have to worry about fitting it a Stealth Rock user or a hazard remover somewhere in there. If you managed to build a team that synergizes perfectly fine and you don't need the liberation of using a pure utility 'mon, fantastic, but if you don't and you're having to switch out one of your current team members for say an SR setter but you can't see switching out any of your current Pokemon as optimal, then you have yourself a situation where it's a good idea.
Again, it's only less efficient if your team simply doesn't need what Forretress has to offer, just like literally any other Pokemon.
lol sorry but how is spending 3 moveslots for SR, Spikes, and Rapid Spin on Forretress sacrificing more moveslots than having three individual Pokemon spend 1 move slot for either SR, Spikes, or Rapid Spin/Defog?
Sure, you sacrifice one team slot, but it's for the betterment of the rest of your team, for one example being able to use Draco Meteor, Psyshock, HP Fire, AND Roost on LO Latios without worrying about hazard removal. Your team STILL has hazard removal and Latios can perform even better independently.
Vs Ferrothorn
-One less weakness
-Sturdy
-Rapid Spin
-Volt Switch
Vs Skarmory
-One less weakness
-Rapid Spin instead of Defog
-Volt Switch
Vs SpD Excadrill
-3 less weaknesses
-More physical bulk
-Spikes
-Volt Switch
Fulfilling nearly all of the support roles for the rest of your team except being a cleric is pretty damn good synergy, allowing the rest of the team to make up for Forretress' lack of offensive prowess with ease since they don't need to worry about spending move slots on anything regarding hazards.
If you guys still don't agree with me, you can have your opinions, but I still think it's viable.
Since SF gatr and FF Typlosion are being released, how viable do you think they will be. I think Typlosion will mainly be a niche Pokemon and gatr will mainly be another gyarados with a slightly different movepool and ability. I think gatr is worthy of an analysis and Typlosion should be a mon that we can do an analysis if most viable mons have had an analysis.
NO ONE CARES ABOUT MEGANIUM
This was already discussed, once the new abilities are actually released in a few weeks, we will decide if they deserve an analysis. I think feraligatr will most likely get one, and the other two probably won't.
I think Dragalge's analyses was done way too fast for people to realize what are the best sets for it. Choice Specs, while ridiculously strong, it's really prediction reliant (ex: locked into a dragon move vs a fairy ex2:locked into a poison move vs a steel type, which are Dragalge's "main" switch-ins in the first place) and thus, really inconsistent at what is he suposed to do; wallbreak. Instead, people lately are opting for the Draco Plate set, as it is still ridiculously strong and Sludge Wave still kills any fairy not called Klefki (or lol Mawile). Add to this, the ability to lay up Toxic Spikes reliably (which are amazing right now) since Dragalge checks a ton of stuff, and this set just sounds so much better. Then, there's the Tank set some people have been using (including me) and it's really bulky, checking the likes of Gengar, Clefable and Keldeo while having big offensive presence and lays Toxic Spikes for bulkier teams. Dragalge needs an update imo.
Don't we already have a Swampert analysis in the Preliminary dex? Why does it need a revamp, exactly?
