Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

[diminom]

Well I see a lot of pokemon are being discussed. I was here to bring up some more pokemon that I believe should rise/fall, however considering there are already a lot of topics here already I will just add on to them.

First off,

C- -> C
With an extremely powerful banded set and the option to run a viable scarf set, Staraptor is a staple on birdspam teams and a viable wallbreaker for any team. Its banded set hits harder than any other bird in OU, including M-Pinsir's ridiculously powerful Return, allowing it to break past things that other birds simply can't. There's really nothing in C- that matches the breaking power of Raptor, which is why it would be more at home in C with mons like Entei, Gatr, and M-Pidg.

C- -> C
I personally agree this pokemon should rise. Yes while I do not believe it is an amazing wallbreaker, I still believe it has a good place in OU. C- is low a rank for a pokemon that has few common switch ins and an access to amazing movepool with Brave Bird, Close Combat, Double-Edge, Final Gambit, and even U-Turn. Not to mention Staraptor has a decent attack and speed stat which allow it to be useful against offensive teams with Choice Scarf, and defensive teams with Choice Band. While I am not saying this pokemon is amazing or should even be ranked above C or C+, I do think it has a niche on birdspam teams with a decent movepool that allows it to be somewhat versatile.

can mandi drop to C+ or C its really bad lol. Its defensive typing is only okay and its not even a solid check to 90% of the things its supposedly a check to. It struggles to maintain any offensive presence outsisde foul play and its super susceptible to passive damage from hazards/status. Its largely outclassed by mega sableye in almost all its roles and especially now that hoopa is dead idk why you would ever use this. If you dont get what i mean like seriously play with this thing for a little bit and you'll see just how finnicky it is. It has bulk but it doesnt have the movepool or typing to take advantage of that.

B- -> C
I like to believe that Mandibuzz did drop already and they just did not update it. Simply put, Mandibuzz isn't nearly as useful as it once was. It struggles as a wall to stay relevant in the current meta, hoopa is gone, it gets walled to death by Sableye, and it is outclassed by many other walls that either have a better typing or more offensive potential like or Clefable or Mega Scizor. I can see this being somewhat useful however it usefulness is so niche that it is not worth it using this pokemon on many teams. Its versatility is horrible as there is really only one viable set, and even I struggle to find a use for this pokemon on stall teams. I don't personally think I would go as far as to make this pokemon unranked as it can check Gengar and Breloom pretty well and it has access to defog, however that being said I still have no idea why Mandibuzz is still B- as it easily deserves to be C or even C-.

A -> A+
Mega Sab is literally the staple that holds together an entire playstyle, and a very good playstyle at that. I don't use it much personally, but every ladder player will run into this thing quite a lot, and like littlelucario said, if you don't have multiple answers to it, it will slowly but surely beat your team down. The fact that an entire playstyle would take a huge hit if this thing wasn't in the tier gives it enough reason to be A+ in my opinion.

A -> A
I am mixed on this change. While I do believe that Mega Sableye defines stall currently and does place solidly above many other As in my opinion, I do not believe Sableye is ready to be in A+. The two other megas (Diancie and Scizor) seem in be above Sableye because of their raw versatility in many of different playstyles and movesets which give them a way better match up against the current meta. Mega Scizor sets up and beats so much of the tier compared to Sableye because of his solid attack stat and good defenses. This combined with Bullet Punch and U-Turn gives Scizor a ton of offensive pressure which helps him keep up with the fast paced meta of OU. Other the other hand we have Mega Diancie which is the best offense fairy type in the tier. Boosting a good speed tier and a solid offensive and defensive typing lets Diancie check many top tier OU threats like Keldeo, Tornadus-T, Latios, Rotom-W and Lando. Combine this with an amazing attack and spattack stat and you can easily see why Diancie is A+. I mean just its switch ins alone are very limited as most of them are hit hard by hp fire or are very niche like defensive Manaphy or Amoonguss. In general, while I can say all of these amazing things about these megas, I cannot say the same for Sableye. While sab is good, it is rather 1 sided, as it has many switch ins and checks like Keldeo, Diancie, and Clefable which are very common in ORAS OU, and an overall passivity with its low speed and attack stat. Also your argument of "Sableye is a Stable of stall and practically defines the playstyle" is true, however stall is not that great right now with a lot of common pokemon have a 130 base Atk/SpA with Life Orb and common wallbreakers like Mega Heracross and Volcanion becoming more and more of a thing. Sableye should stay in A for now in my opinion.

 

[SWAGCOLFO]

Mega Altaria B+ -> B

This mon is honestly not good right now. DD sets are straight up ineffective and mixed attacker is a nice lure and all but isnt that powerful - honestly not many reasons to use this over Diancie or Gardevoir which apply way more offensive pressure. The only sets I ever see have success are weird counter team type sets that people don't prep for like Facade Cotton Guard and fat Body Slam stuff. These are still matchup dependent or susceptible to a bunch of offensive threats anyway, Altaria almost has to be gimmicky to be any good. Half the things it checks pressure it to Roost every turn and it doesn't appreciate burns from Keld even if it's Heal Bell since this is just losing turns.

Thinking back I don't know why we kept this in a rank with Mega Mane and Tangrowth or wanted give someone the idea that this mon is more viable than Breloom (which is fine in B) or Nidoking (which should rise).

I have to second this, Malt has only gotten worse. Nearly every good team carries a steel and it requires more and more support to actually perform its role. Even then if you see a magnezone you are already aware of what your opponents gameplan is and play around. It's more of a late game sweeper than a mon that can just ddance and get kills like Zard X back in the day. With Amoongus and Quagsire jumping up to OU for usage too there are even more counters to it filling up OU. It is just underwhelming and B is the right place for it for now.

Mega Altaria B+ -> B

 

[Srn]

Man mega-alt sure has a big hate-train on its back lmao.
Look, I get that mega alt has been getting worse recently, but it's still nowhere near the level of garbage like raikou. If anything, now that all the clefable are going bold due to the drop in electrics, the special malt will 2hko clefables much more often. Flamethrower/eq give steels enough trouble already, 2hko'ing mzor, ferro, heatran, scarf rachi, sdef skarm, excadrill, magnezone, the only steel that really walls the special set is empoleon :L
Even amoonguss will get 2hko'd by flamethrower about 30% of the time with SR, and all it really does back is clear smog for 32%~ once its spore is used up. If amoong is that much of a problem, special malt can even pick up fire blast>flamethrower and just 2hko outright.
It's not a switch in to the following, but it can also serve as soft checks to keldeo, mega heracross, garchomp, lati@s, typical electrics, rotom-w, and a few other stuff i'm forgetting.
Mega alt is simply not a pokemon that performs on the same level as reuni, hippo, kingdra, togekiss, and raikou. Shifts in the meta against its favor are notable, but it can still handle them and perform its role.
Keep it B+

 

[diminom]

A- -> A
Bisharp is an amazing late game cleaner that is on par with many other A mons. His amazing offensive typing allows him to sweep an entire teams with just 1 swords dance. This is because of his amazing attack stat and access to sucker punch which can easily dent many top tier pokemon like Tornadus, Slowbro, Clefable, Volcanion, and Heatran among many others. His dark typing makes him great on F/D/P cores and his steel typing makes him great on S/F/D cores, and because of this he is incredibly common as he can fit on most offensive and balance teams with his amazing typing that compliments many cores and pokemon like Keldeo, Latios, and Clefable. Bisharp is also one of the few pokemon in the tier and has access to Defiant. Defiant gives Bisharp a very solid niche on Spikes stacking teams and it gives him many setup opportunities with Intimidate and Defog. This means Bisharp can help his teammates a ton by discouraging defog and keeping up rocks for important sweepers like Zard X and Mega Alakazam. While I do not believe Bisharp is the best cleaner in the tier because of his poor speed and weakness to Garchomp and Keldeo, his typing and solid ability means that he can find a spot on so many teams. Simply put if you do not watch out for Bisharp not only will he be able to put a huge dent in your team but he will also find so many setup opportunities with his ability, great typing, and general disregard for thunder wave as well.

A -> A+
I find it quite strange that Garchomp is not in A+ when it is metagame defining and is as common as pokemon like Keldeo, Latios, and even Landorus-T. Garchomp makes a great defensive check to many top tier pokemon like Lopunny, Mega Scizor, and Talonflame like the other defensive wall Landorus. However, unlike Landorus-T, Garchomp has access to Fire Blast, a higher speed tier, Rough Skin, better SpD, and Dragon Tail. Dragon Tail means that a lot of pokemon that can setup on Landorus-T like Sableye, Manaphy or Gliscor cannot setup on Garchomp. Fire Blast lets Garchomp check Scizor which would otherwise counter it and it gives Garchomp a better matchup against Skarmory and Ferrothorn. The higher speed tier means that Garchomp can outspeed base 70 and 80 mons without much investment which is useful in the fast paced meta of ORAS OU. Rough Skin gives him a better matchup against VoltTurn offensive teams which are common in the meta right now. Not to mention Rough Skin also gives Garchomp a very solid match up against Bisharp. Finally Garchomp has way better SpD than Landorus-T which helps it take on more niche pokemon like Charizard-Y and Manectric. With such great niches over Landorus I personally believe that Garchomp should rise to A+.

C+ -> B-
I would argue that Zapdos deserves to be in at least B, however I do not want to be too ambitious so I will start off with B-. First off, Zapdos has been clearly rising in popularity for a good reason. Zapdos has an amazingly unique typing that no other pokemon has defensively. This means that Zapdos is an excellent check to Mega Scizor, Mega Pinsir, and Ferrothorn. This and Zapdos decent defenses gives Zapdos a very strong niche and a good place on many defensive and balance teams. Not only this but Zapdos is quite a bit more offensive than Skarmory and it lacks a fire and electric weakness. I personally do not believe that Zapdos is amazing however I believe that C+ is very a low a pokemon that quite a solid defogger and a good check to Scizor and Tornadus, two very common hard to check OU pokemon. Zapdos also has a good speed tier for a defensive pokemon and decent SpA stat that means it has some offensive power. You can even run Discharge or Toxic on Zapdos to cripple many common switch ins like Latios and ZardX. In general, I think this nom is pretty simple and I believe that while Zapdos has always had these niches, the rise of pokemon like Mega Scizor and Tornadus have given it more viability. Despite the fact that it is checked by Clefable, Diancie and other common pokemon, I still believe that C+ is too low for a pokemon with such an good niche that no other pokemon really has in the same way.

C - > C+
Mega Pidgeot has always been a very overlooked pokemon in ORAS OU. This is because of Pidgeot rather low SpA stat for a mega evolution and its heavy competition with Tornadus-T. However, I personally believe Pidgeot is one of the best stallbreakers in the game. Mega Pidgeot great movepool with Refresh and Roost that means that it can stall out a lot of common wall like Chansey and Clefable that would normally beat Pidgeot without these moves. Plus Pidgeot also has access to Work Up and 100% accurate Hurricanes with a 30% chance of confusing. Pidgeot also has an amazing speed tier as well as a solid move pool that can lure in many threats like Ferrothorn and Scizor and kill them. While yes many counters to Pidgeot are rising like Scizor, Tyranitar and Zapdos and Pidgeot struggles to break through many common OU pokemon like Clefable and and Rotom-W. I still believe that Pidgeot is under ranked as it as a good matchup against stall and defensive teams, as well as a good speed tier and 100% accurate hurricanes that make it good against offense.

C- -> C
This is a very simple nomination as picking Magneton is sorta one sided. I mean Magneton has a very clear niche over Magnezone as it can out speed and act as a check to Tornadus, Talonflame, Weavile, and Choice Scarf Tyranitar. I do not believe that Magneton should rise above C as Magnezone is better than Magneton in pretty much every way except speed, but still out speeding Talonflame and Torn in particular is very useful as many teams that do not need the extra bulk that Magnezone brings and they need the checks to those pokemon instead. Of course this niche is still very small and a common argument against not bringing Magneton to C is the fact that the niche is too small, however I personally believe that Magneton's niche is much better than the other C- pokemon like Aggron, Hoopa, Conkeldurr, or Goodra and is much more on par with the niches of Toxicroak, Azelf, and Seismitoad.

------------
Other Pokemon I have considered righting about but I do not think should change

: Rain is not as strong or common as it once was and many people now run strong water counters for Volcanion like Latios and Slowking among others. However I do not know much about rain as I do not use or see it that often, and I don't think I am in a position to comment where to move these pokemon.

: In my opinion, Entei is underrated. It has a solid niche as the one of the very few fire types that can break past Chansey. He has a good 50% chance to burn his target meaning many common fire switch ins like Hippowdon and Garchomp cannot switch in. Not to mention the burn is extremely annoying for pokemon like Slowbro and Latias. He has extreme speed, a good attack stat when banded and very good bulk and typing that gives it many switch in opportunities. He faces competition from Victini, however Victini cannot burn pokemon like Lando, has no extreme speed, and can really only attack once before being forced to switch out.

: One of the most offensive revenge killers and cleaners that plays in the tier. He has an amazing speed and attack stat that gives him an unrivaled role on certain VoltTurn teams and he pairs amazingly with Magnezone and checks pretty much all fairies and psychic types in the tier. Weak to priority and Lando/Garchomp but his benefits are still commendable against offense and very common OU pokemon like Clef, and Latios. I do not believe it should drop, but I do not know drill enough to say so.

Thanks to Starry Blanket for the format.

 

[Sochlo]

Mega Gallade C+>B-

I know we have a hate boner against this thing but ranking it with things like Empoleon and lol Beedrill is really underselling it, especially since Fighting types are faring better now. Before you say "but Medicham", stop because you have nothing of value to say. SD-Drain Punch-Zen Headbutt-Knock Off/Shadow Sneak is arguably the best set it can run atm. It has other options for coverage (Ice Punch most notably) and can pull off more specialised sets like Bulk Up or even stallbreaking sets with Taunt.

Granted a lot of its less popular options are very team specific, but I could argue that it only says more of its options. Even Close Combat is viable, although in most cases it's better than Drain Punch I'd rather have Terrakion or dare I say it Medicham. It also pairs well with Specs Volcanion, which is another thing it gained recently.

So yeah please raise this it's better than Beedrill.


Speaking of things better than Beedrill, I also support an Omastar raise. It's been discussed already and I really don't have anything to add that hasn't been stated.

 

[Sun]

Mega Gallade C+>B-

I know we have a hate boner against this thing but ranking it with things like Empoleon and lol Beedrill is really underselling it, especially since Fighting types are faring better now. Before you say "but Medicham", stop because you have nothing of value to say. SD-Drain Punch-Zen Headbutt-Knock Off/Shadow Sneak is arguably the best set it can run atm. It has other options for coverage (Ice Punch most notably) and can pull off more specialised sets like Bulk Up or even stallbreaking sets with Taunt.

Granted a lot of its less popular options are very team specific, but I could argue that it only says more of its options. Even Close Combat is viable, although in most cases it's better than Drain Punch I'd rather have Terrakion or dare I say it Medicham. It also pairs well with Specs Volcanion, which is another thing it gained recently.

So yeah please raise this it's better than Beedrill.


Speaking of things better than Beedrill, I also support an Omastar raise. It's been discussed already and I really don't have anything to add that hasn't been stated.

Then, do not agree on MGallade; mega Gallade is definitely a good Wallbreaker, but in this metagame there are types best fight, and I speak not only of Medicham, but also mega lopunny, Terrakion band, Keldeo, these are very more menacing Gallade now, talking about the most effective gallade set not thought that what you mentioned you are very good, this is the best set i think: Close Combat / Zen headbutt / Knock off or Ice punch and Swords dance, this improves ability to wallbreaking of Gallade, the filler can be replaced with Will or wisp, which helps weaken and walls as tankchomp, lando-t, Hippo; talking the talk "is better than Mega Bee," I do not agree, mega Bee has a good speed and excellent attack, also provides much more offensive pressure wears down the balance, especially if you have Magnezone as a teammate, mega bee ago an excellent job in this metagame, as it is back to play stuff like bulky mega Latias, latios to control Volcanion, also mega bee is also a decent pursuit trapper, so i support a mega Bee raise

 

[Gotham-Mimiqui]

So, can someone explain quickly how a fearsome Pokemon like Mega Metagross has fallen to A- rank, whereas just about a year ago he got suspect tested?
I know theres a huge rise of Mega Scizor as one of its best checks, a lot more defensive mons like Tangrowth, Slowbro etc running around, but this Pokemon has not changed since a year, it is still a fast and strong powerhouse with splendid speed tier, formidable attack further boosted with a free Life Orb boost with NO RECOIL and very good bulk and typing allowing it to switch in and out confortably to help all those traits.

Edit: idk why I put Tangrowth or SLowbro here since they cant really handle MMetagross so yeah. But that just adds to how strong MMetagross still is.

 

[Flygonial]

So, can someone explain quickly how a fearsome Pokemon like Mega Metagross has fallen to A- rank, whereas just about a year ago he got suspect tested?
I know theres a huge rise of Mega Scizor as one of its best checks, a lot more defensive mons like Tangrowth, Slowbro etc running around, but this Pokemon has not changed since a year, it is still a fast and strong powerhouse with splendid speed tier, formidable attack further boosted with a free Life Orb boost with NO RECOIL and very good bulk and typing allowing it to switch in and out confortably to help all those traits.

Sure, Mega Metagross is the same pokemon, but as you admit, many of the metagame trends work against it. In the end, I don't see how you're doing much more than describing rehashed strong points for Mega Metagross and ignoring whether anything has changed to increase its merit in the meta. I'm not necessarily opposed to a rise, but I don't feel like you're making a solid case.

 

[Gotham-Mimiqui]

Well here is an interesting link ive found in the suspect test thread, posted by Srn : http://pastebin.com/thvDKcAy
As you can probably see, all the cheer power Megagross packs is always going to heavily threaten most balance teams as they try to switch on this thing. The only Pokemon who's a nice counter to Gross is Scizor and its Mega counterpart, the later seeing a huge raise recently. And?

I dont know why Megagross seems so underrated. How this thing sits at a weird 37th place in the OU usage stats of last month is beyond me. Mega Metagross's best job is wallbreaking, when you have a wallbreaker that is so absurdly powerfull AND Fast, becoming both sweeper and wallbreaker, and ill remind you 80 / 150 /110 bulk, you got an amazing Pokémon. Also, people have been talking about 4MSS, but 4 attacks Megagross with full speed and attack investement is already frightening and he has great synergy with a lot of teammates that garantees Metagross to be able to handle everything that falls to the 4 moves he picked.

The fall of defensive mons like Mandibuzz, Zapdos, Hippowdon also gives Metagross a better opportunity to shine, as balance and defensive teams are now only packing stuff like Lando, Gliscor, Ferro and Skarm as their primary physicall walls, wich all got a 60/40 matchup against Megagross because of Hammer harm and Ice Punch. I feel like MMetagross still is on the same level as A rank stuff. He has above-average matchup against a lot of A and A+ rank mons, but he is amazing against pretty much everything else. So yeah, I think im definitively looking forward a rise of Mega Metagross. It is still a force in this metagame, and he beats some top tier stuff like Clef, MLatias, MDiancie, Tyranitar, and defensive TankChomp and Landorus-T 1 vs 1.
http://pastebin.com/thvDKcAy

 

[tigers jaw]

Please don't raise mega bee my god it's so underwhelming. Rocks weakness+uturn is counter-intuitive and it's the only thing it really does. Not to mention its piss-poor defenses and tankchomp/deflando/helmet whatever on every other team. Thing sucks balls I'll just use something else that isn't weak to rocks with uturn (seeing as all the common shit with turn aims to get it going on the same things as mega bee) that isn't a mega (or mayb is a mega wink scizor considering far better typing, better wincon, recovery, AND can contribute to a defensive backbone of a team). Is comparable to Darmanitan in the way ppl see it and think it's great wow fat power good speed (exclusive to bee not Darmanitan) must be great when in practice it's just fucking gash. Keep it where it is/drop imo.

 

[p2]

it's because during the metagross suspect it was made out to be some sort of god with absolutely no answers, suspect threads are really nothing to go off of because its basically just excessive theorymonning to force a mon out of the tier, which im glad the community realised they were being idiots at the thought of a megagross suspect because the meta was unstable and people weren't fully adapting to threats, because really megagross isn't touching your standard balance team nowadays unless you run some niche and specific set, and that was sort of the case before, but it was just a case of people being whiny claiming that their skarmory couldn't wall gross and so on lol.

basically what i'm saying is, if you're running balance, you will have something that can wall megagross or can put a ton of pressure on it after some prior damage like scarftar.

it always misses so it's got that going for it too.

 

[bludz]

Well here is an interesting link ive found in the suspect test thread, posted by Srn : http://pastebin.com/thvDKcAy
As you can probably see, all the cheer power Megagross packs is always going to heavily threaten most balance teams as they try to switch on this thing. The only Pokemon who's a nice counter to Gross is Scizor and its Mega counterpart, the later seeing a huge raise recently. And?

I dont know why Megagross seems so underrated. How this thing sits at a weird 37th place in the OU usage stats of last month is beyond me. Mega Metagross's best job is wallbreaking, when you have a wallbreaker that is so absurdly powerfull AND Fast, becoming both sweeper and wallbreaker, and ill remind you 80 / 150 /110 bulk, you got an amazing Pokémon. Also, people have been talking about 4MSS, but 4 attacks Megagross with full speed and attack investement is already frightening and he has great synergy with a lot of teammates that garantees Metagross to be able to handle everything that falls to the 4 moves he picked.

The fall of defensive mons like Mandibuzz, Zapdos, Hippowdon also gives Metagross a better opportunity to shine, as balance and defensive teams are now only packing stuff like Lando, Gliscor, Ferro and Skarm as their primary physicall walls, wich all got a 60/40 matchup against Megagross because of Hammer harm and Ice Punch. I feel like MMetagross still is on the same level as A rank stuff. He has above-average matchup against a lot of A and A+ rank mons, but he is amazing against pretty much everything else. So yeah, I think im definitively looking forward a rise of Mega Metagross. It is still a force in this metagame, and he beats some top tier stuff like Clef, MLatias, MDiancie, Tyranitar, and defensive TankChomp and Landorus-T 1 vs 1.

p2 kinda beat me to it but...

Yeah this is kinda misunderstanding why Metagross is good. That suspect was ages ago so a lot of those points don't apply to the current metagame at all. It's really not the biggest threat to balance, since you can only carry so many coverage options. Not only that but its extremely prediction reliant against balance teams since you always have to Grass Knot a Slowbro switch-in, and if you fail to then you have to switch out immediately. Ferrothorn can easily come in on Grass Knots and pivot out into Slowbro, many things wall it on balance without GK and GK is basically useless against offense anyway. This is also kinda forgetting that despite 1v1ing Skarmory in theory, the Hammer Arm drops make you absurdly easy to switch into after one or two. Slowking beats non-TPunch sets, Scizor walls you completely, Tangrowth wins 1v1, and Metagross switches into almost nothing on balance (Leech Seed / TWave / Scald / EQ are all things it doesn't wanna take). Torn-T soft checks you and ScarfTar too, once you've been worn down they both win and both are common on balance.

Metagross' best matchup is by far against offense (using Ice Punch / Bullet Punch / Pursuit as the last option) due to its ridiculous bulk alongside strong attack and solid movepool. One of the main reasons it was being suspected is that very few things could successfully revenge kill it from full HP. Choice Scarf Landorus-T for example can never achieve the OHKO, which is crazy. However in this metagame it's so easy to accrue chip damage with Rocky Helmet and things of that nature, not to mention the massive speed creep with stuff like Torn-T as one of the main abusers which can just U-turn out of Meta until you're in range of Heat Wave for example.

I had this argument with someone before and said Metagross would way rather switch into Latios on offense and get chunked for 50% from Draco than into Clefable on balance and get paralyzed by TWave. This really isn't a perfect example of its matchup against playstyles but please don't make the mistake of thinking that Mega Metagross is a godly balance breaker when that isn't its forte at all. Grass Knot is honestly not the best option on it at all any more, and will rarely see any use in offense v offense matchups at all.

diminom Garchomp's best sets in this metagame are offensive sets. It isn't going to rise on the merits of the Tank Chomp set, and it certainly isn't as metagame defining as the other A+ rank mons right now at all. It hasn't been since Lando-T retook the spot as the top defensive ground.

Not sure why there's any hype to raise Bee, this mon requires so much support to be effective. One of its best selling points was outspeeding Mega Altaria at +1 but considering Altaria's fall from grace it has lost one of its biggest niches. It's still fast as hell but hazards are harder to remove than ever and chip damage and priority are abundant.

I won't go too far into the argument with Srn about Altaria but the Bold Clef thing is an overstatement. Not to say it isn't true at all but you still need Modest to 2HKO with Hyper Voice (and it's like a 50% roll anyway, if they're running like 50 SpDef lol). I would also argue the mixed wallbreaker is its best set right now (but man DD sets are p wack) but it suffers a lot of competition from Wisp Gardevoir and HP Fire Diancie which are similarly tricky to switch into but apply more offensive presence overall thanks to not having ass speed tiers. It has some better defensive typing than these but speed > defensive typing for a wallbreaker most of the time I'd say. Maybe it doesn't need to drop but there's a reason there's a hate train - when's the last time someone had real success with this thing? I've seen Mane and Aero put in work but as I mentioned before all the times I see Altaria put in work now are with gimmick sets, mixed attacker is cool but I haven't seen it used. Being slow is a real problem for this mon especially when its sets that remedy the problem (DD) are bad now

 

[Ramses]

I don't know if everyone knows, but Zapdos is dong in OU and the only reason it's being hyped is that a lot of people peak high on the ladder with it being thrown on poorly built stall teams that take advantage of how bad the ladder is in general. That aside, it doesn't offer anything outstanding that other Pokemon can. There are much better hazard turnovers than it and considering hazard removal is a bit out of favor unless you're using something like Talonflame or Mega Pinsir. Tornadus and Mega Scizor have been popular forever and it was still dong, so there really isn't much you said that exemplifies anything about it aside from the rudimentary facts you listed. Zapdos is fine in C+.

Stallbreaker Mega Pidgeot is kinda bad these days since it doesn't really break stall that well. A simple Work-Up + 3 attacks set is generally better or just run the U-turn set. That aside, Tornadus-T gives it so much competition and the fact it takes up the Mega slot really warrants it's position so low anyway. Whatever it does, Torn does similarly bar 100% accurate Hurricanes and Torn is generally better. As for Magneton there was a nom for it a few pages back, but once you realize that just outspeeding Talonflame and Weavile isn't worth all the other perks that Magnezone itself brings to a team, such as feasible bulk. Basically, Magneton rarely puts in appropriate work when used, whereas Magnezone does and is just so much better.

Mega Beedrill (and Mega Altaria, seriously it had a nice run, but it's just not good anymore) is total garbage right now for reasons bludz explained really well. If anything, it's more set for a drop than a rise in this meta. The same goes for Mega Gallade. Especially with the latter, there's little to no niche it holds within the metagame. As a wallbreaker Mega Medicham out does it by a mile and if you're looking for something speedy Mega Lopunny is always better. Not to mention the influx of other Fighting-types like Terrakion, which is pretty much one of the best non-Mega wallbreakers that reside in the tier currently. So in short, Mega Gallade's niche is incredibly small and shouldn't rise on the basis that all the other Fighting-types in the tier offer more than it does.

Oh and can we stop hating on Alakazam? It's a better mon than everyone is letting on and being completely outclassed by it's Mega is a huge overstatement ._.

 

[Gotham-Mimiqui]

Thanks p2 and bludz for the answers; I think I overhyped a bit. You guys are right I shouldnt have looked at the suspect test as an argument. In my mind I just thought that Megagross was really scary due to how hard he is to swith into/wall if you dont have the correct answers. Thanks for your knowledge; now that i look better at it, its true that A- is probably whats suits better Megagross ; the meta shifts are really interesting, and when you see how he droped alongside MAltaria... (wich again shows how I was wrong saying that the meta is becoming boring)

 

[HailFall]

Just going to say that mega altaria certainly is not garbage and it's got plenty going for it even if current trends are going against it. Saying it's worse than either mega manectric or aero is pretty dumb imo and I think it's far better than both of them because despite it struggling offensively in this meta; alt has good defensive utility going for it that lets it shine. DDD body slam is cancerous as ever having a good chance to paralyze switchins and the bulk to take on most elecs immune to para, and the special attacker set has the tools to quickly wear down its checks. I've actually used this a fair bit recently and it's one of my top 5 favorite megas to use on balance and stall.
While the metagame has been giving it issues for the most part recently, the special attacker set has nice utility vs pretty common stuff like mega latias balance, and lures quite a few common mons on sand teams. Just because malt isn't as good as it used to be that doesn't make it bad. It still serves a nice defensive role and it has the tools to punish switchins (body slam or coverage). It should stay B+

 

[adamant excadrill]

p2 kinda beat me to it but...

Yeah this is kinda misunderstanding why Metagross is good. That suspect was ages ago so a lot of those points don't apply to the current metagame at all. It's really not the biggest threat to balance, since you can only carry so many coverage options. Not only that but its extremely prediction reliant against balance teams since you always have to Grass Knot a Slowbro switch-in, and if you fail to then you have to switch out immediately. Ferrothorn can easily come in on Grass Knots and pivot out into Slowbro, many things wall it on balance without GK and GK is basically useless against offense anyway. This is also kinda forgetting that despite 1v1ing Skarmory in theory, the Hammer Arm drops make you absurdly easy to switch into after one or two. Slowking beats non-TPunch sets, Scizor walls you completely, Tangrowth wins 1v1, and Metagross switches into almost nothing on balance (Leech Seed / TWave / Scald / EQ are all things it doesn't wanna take). Torn-T soft checks you and ScarfTar too, once you've been worn down they both win and both are common on balance.

Metagross' best matchup is by far against offense (using Ice Punch / Bullet Punch / Pursuit as the last option) due to its ridiculous bulk alongside strong attack and solid movepool. One of the main reasons it was being suspected is that very few things could successfully revenge kill it from full HP. Choice Scarf Landorus-T for example can never achieve the OHKO, which is crazy. However in this metagame it's so easy to accrue chip damage with Rocky Helmet and things of that nature, not to mention the massive speed creep with stuff like Torn-T as one of the main abusers which can just U-turn out of Meta until you're in range of Heat Wave for example.

I had this argument with someone before and said Metagross would way rather switch into Latios on offense and get chunked for 50% from Draco than into Clefable on balance and get paralyzed by TWave. This really isn't a perfect example of its matchup against playstyles but please don't make the mistake of thinking that Mega Metagross is a godly balance breaker when that isn't its forte at all. Grass Knot is honestly not the best option on it at all any more, and will rarely see any use in offense v offense matchups at all.

diminom Garchomp's best sets in this metagame are offensive sets. It isn't going to rise on the merits of the Tank Chomp set, and it certainly isn't as metagame defining as the other A+ rank mons right now at all. It hasn't been since Lando-T retook the spot as the top defensive ground.

Not sure why there's any hype to raise Bee, this mon requires so much support to be effective. One of its best selling points was outspeeding Mega Altaria at +1 but considering Altaria's fall from grace it has lost one of its biggest niches. It's still fast as hell but hazards are harder to remove than ever and chip damage and priority are abundant.

I won't go too far into the argument with Srn about Altaria but the Bold Clef thing is an overstatement. Not to say it isn't true at all but you still need Modest to 2HKO with Hyper Voice (and it's like a 50% roll anyway, if they're running like 50 SpDef lol). I would also argue the mixed wallbreaker is its best set right now (but man DD sets are p wack) but it suffers a lot of competition from Wisp Gardevoir and HP Fire Diancie which are similarly tricky to switch into but apply more offensive presence overall thanks to not having ass speed tiers. It has some better defensive typing than these but speed > defensive typing for a wallbreaker most of the time I'd say. Maybe it doesn't need to drop but there's a reason there's a hate train - when's the last time someone had real success with this thing? I've seen Mane and Aero put in work but as I mentioned before all the times I see Altaria put in work now are with gimmick sets, mixed attacker is cool but I haven't seen it used. Being slow is a real problem for this mon especially when its sets that remedy the problem (DD) are bad now

I also agree that mega metagross is really good right now and deserves to be A rank. It checks (not counters) a large amount of the A+ mons such as latios mega Diancie keldeo Lando T 2 hit KOs rotom wash with zen after rocks and 1 hit KOs standard CM magic guard clefable. Mega metagross also can run thunder punch since it hits Skarmory (most atm are so def anyways) which makes it easier for mega metagross to break past bulky waters that would normally wall mega metagross such as slowking slowbro and alomomola. Yes it does suffer from 4MSS but with the popularity of stall it can run grass knot to hit quagmire and win 1v1 against Skarmory. I feel as if mega metagross is a very underrated threat currently too checks a large amount of the meta game and does well versus bulky offense balance and stall teams and I feel like the meta game is in favor of mega metagross

 

[Bice]

Good day.

---> A+: Agree

Fun fact: I actually had no idea this thing was A and not A+. Anyway, Tyranitar is excellent in the current meta. Being the key factor in a dominant playstyle, it's not like Tyranitar is bad without Sand Stream, like how Politoed is bad without Drizzle. It has excellent offenses and a good movepool, and has the bulk to make up for its lackluster speed. I'm mainly ranking this based off of its Choice Band set, which has gotten a lot of attention recently, and for good reason. Sure, it may not have the good speed Choice Scarf brings, but it has the ability to punch holes in most teams. Its Choice Scarf set is also great, being able to revenge kill the likes of the Lati twins, and it can run a defensive set (note: not really judging T-Tar based off of this, as I have no experience with this set). Just make it rise already.

---> B: Yeah, no.

Seriously, what's with the hate on Mega Altaria recently? Yes, I certainly agree MAlt has fallen from grace (I remember when people were calling for a suspect lmao), however, I definitely think it's much better than the likes of Raikou (who I'll get to in a second) and Quagsire. It has an amazing typing and stats, albeit with mediocre speed, and a good movepool, and it can fit on a variety of playstyles. Plus, Pixilate boosted Return (or Hyper Voice) hits quite hard, especially the former when MAlt has gotten a Dragon Dance up. With its great typing, it can form as a great soft check to the likes of Keldeo, Mega Heracross, and others. It's perfectly fine where it is.

---> B-: Agree

Yeah, this thing is just a faster yet inferior Thundurus at this point. Back when Electric-types were dominant, Raikou was one of them who took a sharp rise in viability, serving as a great check to its fellow Electrics, as well as Manaphy, Gengar, and others. However, with Sand and Stall both on the rise, Raikou's mediocre power hasn't been able to keep up recently. Even with Calm Mind, it's still not powerful enough, as Tyranitar, one of its biggest checks, is still only 3HKO'd by Raikou at +1 Special Attack, and can retaliate back with Stone Edge or Crunch. Drop it, please, thanks.

 

[Ciele]

I don't know if everyone knows, but Zapdos is dong in OU and the only reason it's being hyped is that a lot of people peak high on the ladder with it being thrown on poorly built stall teams that take advantage of how bad the ladder is in general. That aside, it doesn't offer anything outstanding that other Pokemon can. There are much better hazard turnovers than it and considering hazard removal is a bit out of favor unless you're using something like Talonflame or Mega Pinsir. Tornadus and Mega Scizor have been popular forever and it was still dong, so there really isn't much you said that exemplifies anything about it aside from the rudimentary facts you listed. Zapdos is fine in C+.

If its success on ladder means nothing because "ladder is bad" then what exactly are you basing your opinion on? Theorymon? It enjoyed quite a bit of success in the most recent major tournament (Smogon Tour) so I hope it's not tournaments.

A Ground-immune Defogger who counters two of the biggest threats in the tier is quite useful, especially when it also checks a number of other big threats such as Pinsir and Talonflame. Unlike a lot of other walls, Zapdos can't even be used as set-up fodder because Electric/Fire/Ice coverage from 125 SpAtk is so ridiculously good. Nothing on offense can safely switch into it (Tyranitar maybe?), balance usually has trouble breaking through it, and stall will never keep hazards against it.

It's not the most versatile Pokemon by any means but it has proven to be very effective on certain teams and deserves way better than C+ rank. Personally I think it should be B but at the very least it should be B-.

--

I would also like to nominate Chansey for A-.

I know it's "cool" to criticise stall and its players but the reality is that Chansey has been an important member of many of the most successful teams throughout this whole generation. The top of the ladder is nothing but stall, Weavile stall has been hugely successful both on ladder and in tournaments, Gothitelle stall was considered overpowered, WhiteQueen won 15 or 16 rounds of OST with Chansey on all different kinds of teams, and there's even a Tyranitar/Slowbro stall team that has seen success in and after SPL. Chansey has contributed to every bit of that, and the last two points show that it's not just Sableye providing the necessary support for it to succeed. If you look at the replays of people high on the leaderboard you'll see a Lot of Chansey, and if you look at recent tournament win rates you'll see outrageous numbers like these.

It functions as a cleric, an SR setter, a hard wall to a ton of stuff, a soft check to a massive portion of the tier, and in the case of Some Users, it can even offer Healing Wish support. Natural Cure and reliable recovery makes it extremely difficult to wear down (even without Leftovers), and Seismic Toss gives it a consistent way of dealing decent damage. It also has Thunder Wave.

Nothing other than Blissey (the inferior Chansey) can come close to doing what Chansey does for teams. It's the cornerstone of one of three major playstyles, and to me, that alone should warrant it being placed above highly inconsistent Pokemon such as Gengar and Klefki.

Agree with Chomper and Tyranitar moving to A+ for reasons already stated in this thread.

 

[MANNAT]

Regular Hera for D rank

a
Ok, after using this thing quite a bit, I'm going to nominate regular heracross to D rank, mabe C-. The set that I will primarily be talking about is the guts SD set since it is a really solid stallbreaker in the current metagame and what I believe is its best set. This set gets plenty of setup chances vs stall since it threatens out chansey, resists the utility dark moves that sableye has, and has guts so that status spreaders don't really threaten it. Heracross with guts and swords dance can sweep through or at least thoroughly damage most stall teams if played well since. At +2 with guts, heracross has the equivalent of 1047 attack, which is mind boggling and can explain why this thing hits so hard and can OHKO basically the entire game at +2. The ability to do so well vs common stall mons is really good and appealing for hera since it pretty much 6-0s standard stall without talonflame as long as rocks are up (obviously banded weavile is annoying) and is such a solid stallbreaker that it's more than worth using imo. Additionally, tboost boosted attacks can work out well vs offense for people that like to use tankchomp as their physical attacker check and can get in on dark types and just fire off a cc, which can do a ton of damage to most of HO (2hkos latios iirc) Certain mons like talonflame and banded weavile that are found on common stall teams can be annoying for it, but that's what teammates are for. I'm not nomming for this thing to B rank or anything, I'm nomming it to go near the low end of the VR rankings. It has such a good matchup vs stall and doesn't even take a mega slot that it can be justified on some teams. Obviously it is going to require some team support to function via pivots, rocks setters, talon checks, etc., but that's something that's a given with a D rank pokemon. It has enough of a niche to justify D rank and really should be placed on this list. It's certainly better than some of the other dogshit in D like roserade, cloyster, bronzong, blissey, normal kyurem (subroost pressure stall, really ;-;) etc. that are almost entirely outuclassed by other mons lol.

Here are some calcs to show how fucking strong this thing actually is:

Calcs

+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 357-420 (106.8 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Mega Slowbro: 594-702 (150.7 - 178.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 387-456 (127.3 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Amoonguss: 705-829 (163.1 - 191.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 36 HP / 220 Def Alomomola: 589-694 (122.7 - 144.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 252-297 (63.9 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 214-252 (54.4 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery )
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Mega Scizor: 421-496 (122.7 - 144.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 842-992 (239.2 - 281.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 1194-1406 (309.3 - 364.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 535-631 (146.9 - 173.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 244 HP / 8 Def Gliscor: 400-471 (113.6 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 627-738 (155.1 - 182.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Mega Altaria: 371-437 (105 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 646-761 (100.6 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 487-574 (120.5 - 142%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 409-483 (101.2 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 387-456 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Here are some replays to show a regular hera team in action:

Replay(s)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-374140843 - Just to show that hera teams can work vs offense
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-374069721 - Cool replay vs stall where hera would've 6-0'd if i clicked rocks instead of fire blast turn 1 or if they didn't have counter skarm lol and hera put enough pressure on their team to force them to play conservatively early game.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-374142288 - +2 hera sets up and kills half of the team

I'll maybe add some more replays later, but these should be fine to show how hera works in general.

Edit: since SOME people thought that it was a good idea to point out that I had poor replays and ignore the part of my post that was much better, THESE replays are to show that teams with Heracross WORK vs multiple playstyles, not to show that heracross is a don that can put in work every game lol. Also, the replay with clef clicking fire blast turn 1 was one that hera wouldve literally 6-0'd if I clicked rocks like someone who isnt retarded lol, I can send a pb of that team to show it was lo rocks clef if you guys really want. The last one is vs a team of ranked mons and just shows that mega hera can set up and kill multiple mons on opposing teams at +2 vs bulkier builds, not that it can counter S ranked threats lol.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-374526780 - Here is a replay that shows that hera can work vs offense as well (a friend sent this to me after laddering)

 

[LimaBean]

Regular Hera for D rank

Ok, after using this thing quite a bit, I'm going to nominate regular heracross to D rank, mabe C-. The set that I will primarily be talking about is the guts SD set since it is a really solid stallbreaker in the current metagame and what I believe is its best set. This set gets plenty of setup chances vs stall since it threatens out chansey, resists the utility dark moves that sableye has, and has guts so that status spreaders don't really threaten it. Heracross with guts and swords dance can sweep through or at least thoroughly damage most stall teams if played well since. At +2 with guts, heracross has the equivalent of 1047 attack, which is mind boggling and can explain why this thing hits so hard and can OHKO basically the entire game at +2. The ability to do so well vs common stall mons is really good and appealing for hera since it pretty much 6-0s standard stall without talonflame as long as rocks are up (obviously banded weavile is annoying) and is such a solid stallbreaker that it's more than worth using imo. Additionally, tboost boosted attacks can work out well vs offense for people that like to use tankchomp as their physical attacker check and can get in on dark types and just fire off a cc, which can do a ton of damage to most of HO (2hkos latios iirc) Certain mons like talonflame and banded weavile that are found on common stall teams can be annoying for it, but that's what teammates are for. I'm not nomming for this thing to B rank or anything, I'm nomming it to go near the low end of the VR rankings. It has such a good matchup vs stall and doesn't even take a mega slot that it can be justified on some teams. Obviously it is going to require some team support to function via pivots, rocks setters, talon checks, etc., but that's something that's a given with a D rank pokemon. It has enough of a niche to justify D rank and really should be placed on this list. It's certainly better than some of the other dogshit in D like roserade, cloyster, bronzong, blissey, normal kyurem (subroost pressure stall, really ;-;) etc. that are almost entirely outuclassed by other mons lol.

Here are some calcs to show how fucking strong this thing actually is:

Calcs

+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 357-420 (106.8 - 125.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Mega Slowbro: 594-702 (150.7 - 178.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 387-456 (127.3 - 150%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 136 Def Amoonguss: 705-829 (163.1 - 191.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 36 HP / 220 Def Alomomola: 589-694 (122.7 - 144.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 252-297 (63.9 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 214-252 (54.4 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery )
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Mega Scizor: 421-496 (122.7 - 144.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 842-992 (239.2 - 281.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 1194-1406 (309.3 - 364.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 535-631 (146.9 - 173.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 244 HP / 8 Def Gliscor: 400-471 (113.6 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 627-738 (155.1 - 182.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 104+ Def Mega Altaria: 371-437 (105 - 123.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 646-761 (100.6 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 487-574 (120.5 - 142%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 409-483 (101.2 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 387-456 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Here are some replays to show a regular hera team in action:

Replay(s)

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-374140843 - Just to show that hera teams can work vs offense
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-374069721 - Cool replay vs stall where hera would've 6-0'd if i clicked rocks instead of fire blast turn 1 or if they didn't have counter skarm lol and hera put enough pressure on their team to force them to play conservatively early game.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-374142288 - +2 hera sets up and kills half of the team

I'll maybe add some more replays later, but these should be fine to show how hera works in general.

Those replays do not do guts heracross justice. For the first battle against offence, heracross didn't even come out of its pokeball so you can't say it did well against offence (thank its team mates) because against offence it's pretty poor. The second replay it got ko'd and maybe could of been toxic stalled. In addition, there's unaware quagsire, skarm which took a hit and countered (skarms may even opt for brave bird, drill peck as moves and rocky helmet as an item), and weavile forces heracross to switch or go down (not to mention the prevalence of rocky helmet lately plus iron barbs and rough skin in the current metagame) . Saying pretty much 6:0 stall is an overstatement. The third player had pokemon that were comprised of many very low on the viability rankings and was worn down and prioritised.

 

[Oregon Wizard]

Alright, so apparently my earlier post was not enough to warrant debate of any kind according to the mod (even though it did.) Anyways, rules are rules, so I have an updated post. As you can see from Little Lucarios calcs, Heracross can function as a hardcore stallbreaker/wallbreaker. I really like that set, but for me, its too slow, and it becomes obvious that Hera isn't the mega as soon as it comes into battle, which is half the fun. Choice Scarf, Guts Heracross is my favorite Heracross set, and here is why I think it should be D rank, at least. ScarfGuts Heracross has a completely unique dual STAB, with access to CC and Megahorn as BP 120 stab moves and great coverage options in Knock Off, Stone Edge, and Earthquake. It may be a bit of a shallow movepool, but really, he has all he needs. Close Combat and Megahorn hit real hard, even before the guts boost, allowing Hera to revenge kill common threats, such as ScarfTar, Lati@s, Bisharp, Mega Alakazam, Heatran, Lopunny, Weavile, Terrakion, and Serperior to name a few. All of these pokemon are outspead, as the scarf puts hera higher than max investment positive nature 150's. Also, Heracross is one of very few physical attackers that can beat Mega Sableye one on one. This isn't his only utility against stall either, as he also beats Chansey (obviously) and the boost he receives from guts is unnafected by Quagsires unaware. Its not hard to get Heracross burned either, basically every Heracross is a Mega, so naturally, you burn it and shut it down. On offensive teams, this is great, because not only do you have a status sponge that few people expect, but your sponge actually benefits from the status, which can make very paranoid opponents hesitant to throw out a wisp, but more importantly, it gives you a free switch and set up in one move. Here, have some calcs

without a burn or any other status ailments
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 458-540 (153.1 - 180.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 68 Def Mega Latias: 308-366 (84.8 - 100.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 362-428 (93.7 - 110.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 16 HP / 8 Def Mega Gardevoir: 268-316 (95.3 - 112.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 506-596 (78.8 - 92.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 254-302 (72.1 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

While Statused
252 Atk Guts Heracross Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 272-322 (74.7 - 88.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Guts Heracross Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 100+ Def Mega Charizard X: 242-286 (67.4 - 79.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Skarmory: 213-252 (63.7 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 214-253 (70.3 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 384-452 (109 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 228-268 (54.6 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 199-235 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 262-310 (108.7 - 128.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Mega Scizor: 192-226 (55.9 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 229-270 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

As you can see, Heracross kills. I admit he is very niche, but you can't deny that it isn't a good niche to have. No other physical fighting type can do all this, including Terrakion, who can't beat Sableye, Lati@s, Quagsire, or Scizor without a band, and would not out speed as many offensive threats as Scarf Heracross, unless he is running scarf himself, in which he will not have enough power to break through the defensive Pokémon that Heracross has little trouble with. No other scarfer can brag this. All these calcs are with a jolly Heracross, whose attack stat with Guts activated reaches 523. That's higher than Adament mega Hera, who sits at 515 and commonly runs Jolly because its speed is dismal, unlike Scarf Heracross. Furthermore, having a second Pokémon that can mega evolve but sometimes or usually doesn't as your actual mega can really mess with an opponents game plan. An example of this would be Scizor, Slowbro, Latias, Tyranitar, or Alakazam. Heracross in my opinion is completely viable in OU and should go from unranked==>D.

Thank you for considering my proposal. Here are some replays.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-374177907
Heracross dominated this team, and he would have killed Houndoom if it weren't for the weird sucker punch set this guy was running. Ft. Tyranitar with the ultra clutch performance.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-374170708
Less spectacular, but a good clean up job.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-374166349
Hera catching the Heatran who was expecting the Mega, then taking Mega Lati@s with the trash. Would have cleaned if opponent didn't forfeit.

 

[kek123]

Alright, so apparently my earlier post was not enough to warrant debate of any kind according to the mod (even though it did.) Anyways, rules are rules, so I have an updated post. As you can see from Little Lucarios calcs, Heracross can function as a hardcore stallbreaker/wallbreaker. I really like that set, but for me, its too slow, and it becomes obvious that Hera isn't the mega as soon as it comes into battle, which is half the fun. Choice Scarf, Guts Heracross is my favorite Heracross set, and here is why I think it should be D rank, at least. ScarfGuts Heracross has a completely unique dual STAB, with access to CC and Megahorn as BP 120 stab moves and great coverage options in Knock Off, Stone Edge, and Earthquake. It may be a bit of a shallow movepool, but really, he has all he needs. Close Combat and Megahorn hit real hard, even before the guts boost, allowing Hera to revenge kill common threats, such as ScarfTar, Lati@s, Bisharp, Mega Alakazam, Heatran, Lopunny, Weavile, Terrakion, and Serperior to name a few. All of these pokemon are outspead, as the scarf puts hera higher than max investment positive nature 150's. Also, Heracross is one of very few physical attackers that can beat Mega Sableye one on one. This isn't his only utility against stall either, as he also beats Chansey (obviously) and the boost he receives from guts is unnafected by Quagsires unaware. Its not hard to get Heracross burned either, basically every Heracross is a Mega, so naturally, you burn it and shut it down. On offensive teams, this is great, because not only do you have a status sponge that few people expect, but your sponge actually benefits from the status, which can make very paranoid opponents hesitant to throw out a wisp, but more importantly, it gives you a free switch and set up in one move. Here, have some calcs

without a burn or any other status ailments
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 458-540 (153.1 - 180.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 248 HP / 68 Def Mega Latias: 308-366 (84.8 - 100.8%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 362-428 (93.7 - 110.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Heracross Megahorn vs. 16 HP / 8 Def Mega Gardevoir: 268-316 (95.3 - 112.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 506-596 (78.8 - 92.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 254-302 (72.1 - 85.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

While Statused
252 Atk Guts Heracross Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Volcanion: 272-322 (74.7 - 88.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Guts Heracross Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 100+ Def Mega Charizard X: 242-286 (67.4 - 79.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Skarmory: 213-252 (63.7 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 214-253 (70.3 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 384-452 (109 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 240 HP / 176+ Def Garchomp: 228-268 (54.6 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 199-235 (47.3 - 55.9%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 262-310 (108.7 - 128.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Guts Heracross Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Mega Scizor: 192-226 (55.9 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Guts Heracross Megahorn vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 229-270 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

As you can see, Heracross kills. I admit he is very niche, but you can't deny that it isn't a good niche to have. No other physical fighting type can do all this, including Terrakion, who can't beat Sableye, Lati@s, Quagsire, or Scizor without a band, and would not out speed as many offensive threats as Scarf Heracross, unless he is running scarf himself, in which he will not have enough power to break through the defensive Pokémon that Heracross has little trouble with. No other scarfer can brag this. All these calcs are with a jolly Heracross, whose attack stat with Guts activated reaches 523. That's higher than Adament mega Hera, who sits at 515 and commonly runs Jolly because its speed is dismal, unlike Scarf Heracross. Furthermore, having a second Pokémon that can mega evolve but sometimes or usually doesn't as your actual mega can really mess with an opponents game plan. An example of this would be Scizor, Slowbro, Latias, Tyranitar, or Alakazam. Heracross in my opinion is completely viable in OU and should go from unranked==>D.

Thank you for considering my proposal. Here are some replays.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-374177907
Heracross dominated this team, and he would have killed Houndoom if it weren't for the weird sucker punch set this guy was running. Ft. Tyranitar with the ultra clutch performance.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-374170708
Less spectacular, but a good clean up job.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-374166349
Hera catching the Heatran who was expecting the Mega, then taking Mega Lati@s with the trash. Would have cleaned if opponent didn't forfeit.

Heracross is major out classed in this tier by other fighting types and bug types it daul stab is resisted by the most common walls in the tier lando-t and clefable it quad weak to flying types its speed tier isnt amazing it has no priority it 100% out classed by the mega , scarf is out classed by scarf terrakion ,guts is easy to play around SD is literally out classed by mega in every way other than speed and does nothing against HO or offensive balance

Also if anything your calcs convinced me that heracross was worse than I previously after seeing that it doest even one shot chansey or mega latias with out guts and rocks also I want to say this again the two best walls in the tier in clefable and lando-t resist it stabs although this isnt has bigger deal for mega as it has rock blast and tones of power aswell as a lot more bulk to to take lando-t's stone edges or eqs also id like to point out the 1/3 of the teams that your replays were against had a 'standard' team in game 3 the one game there was a normal team you say ''would of cleaned up'' lando was on 76% health -1 252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Landorus-T: 50-59 (13.1 - 15.4%) -- possible 7HKO yea clean up im not saying you wouldn't of won but not with hera which is what you seemed to implying also the the two kill you got on your opponent with hera is due to his miss plays imo since he had lando the free switch in

most effective move that scarf hera can use on lando and clef:
-1 252 Atk Heracross Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Landorus-T: 56-66 (14.6 - 17.3%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Heracross Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 112-132 (28.4 - 33.5%) -- 95.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Oregon Wizard]

Heracross is major out classed in this tier by other fighting types and bug types it daul stab is resisted by the most common walls in the tier lando-t and clefable it quad weak to flying types its speed tier isnt amazing it has no priority it 100% out classed by the mega , scarf is out classed by scarf terrakion ,guts is easy to play around SD is literally out classed by mega in every way other than speed and does nothing against HO or offensive balance

Also if anything your calcs convinced me that heracross was worse than I previously after seeing that it doest even one shot chansey or mega latias with out guts and rocks also I want to say this again the two best walls in the tier in clefable and lando-t resist it stabs although this isnt has bigger deal for mega as it has rock blast and tones of power aswell as a lot more bulk to to take lando-t's stone edges or eqs also id like to point out the 1/3 of the teams that your replays were against had a 'standard' team in game 3 the one game there was a normal team you say ''would of cleaned up'' lando was on 76% health -1 252 Atk Heracross Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Landorus-T: 50-59 (13.1 - 15.4%) -- possible 7HKO yea clean up im not saying you wouldn't of won but not with hera which is what you seemed to implying also the the two kill you got on your opponent with hera is due to his miss plays imo since he had lando the free switch in

most effective move that scarf hera can use on lando and clef:
-1 252 Atk Heracross Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Landorus-T: 56-66 (14.6 - 17.3%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Heracross Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 112-132 (28.4 - 33.5%) -- 95.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Okay, so Heracross is walled by two of the best Pokémon in the meta and also two of the best tanks maybe ever. There are things in much higher ranks that are also walled by both these Pokémon just as hard. There is a reason I'm nomming him for D. He is certainly outclassed, but he is viable.
I'm not sure what you mean by my replays not being against standard teams, but you're right about the lando, I forgot about him. In the first replay, Heracross ohko'd a defensive Mew and 2hko'd a Donphan. He played really well. And you are right, without a burn, Hera's power is lacking. But with a burn, he is an animal, and even the premier tanks of OU (besides lando/clef) can't easily stomach his hits. In my opinion, ScarfGuts Heracross is better than Conkeldurr's AV guts set, which is in C I believe. He doesn't have the bulk, but he outspeeds things instead, and can take on pretty much any psychic type as well as Mega Sableye. I have this Heracross set on my main team, which I think has potential to break 1650 on the ladder. I don't use Heracross because he is the best bug or fighting type, or the best scarfer. I use him because he fills a niche on my team as a physical attacker that can beat a lot of the threats that beat my team, such as mega Sableye, Weavile, and Heatran. I see on a regular basis this Hera set succeed and I know that it belongs on this list.

 

[Slowbroman]

I'm supporting the Heracross to D nom, if only for the reason that I think it's not totally outclassed. Guts means that it is pretty much the only Fighter that can break M-Sableye without taking a burn (Conkeldurr can't hit Sableye hard enough with its coverage moves) as well as the BandGuts set being able to switch in on predicted Scalds (i.e from Slowbro, Suicune, etc.) and Will-O-Wisps from the likes of Rotom-W, bulky Zard X and the rarer defensive Infernape and Rotom-H, as well as the aforementioned M-Sableye. Obviously, the combination of Guts and a half-decent Speed tier is basically its only niche, but considering that we've got stuff like standard Sableye ranked, I think it deserves D rank.

 

[kek123]

I'm supporting the Heracross to D nom, if only for the reason that I think it's not totally outclassed. Guts means that it is pretty much the only Fighter that can break M-Sableye without taking a burn (Conkeldurr can't hit Sableye hard enough with its coverage moves) as well as the BandGuts set being able to switch in on predicted Scalds (i.e from Slowbro, Suicune, etc.) and Will-O-Wisps from the likes of Rotom-W, bulky Zard X and the rarer defensive Infernape and Rotom-H, as well as the aforementioned M-Sableye. Obviously, the combination of Guts and a half-decent Speed tier is basically its only niche, but considering that we've got stuff like standard Sableye ranked, I think it deserves D rank.

so your telling me you can switch in heracross on zard x and slowbro what? its not worth the risk... invalid point imo also sub Mega hera is one of the best mons at beating Mega sab y'know the mon that i've been talking about the most the thing that completely out classes heracross also base 85 with no priority is a bad speed tier for OU standard with out eminence wall breaking power or lots of bulk the reason normal sab is ranked is because of priority recover and wilo wisp and priorty taunt which is something it can only do mega sab gets it but for only the first turn also you say predict scald as if it 100% chance for burn when actually your taking damage for no reason 70% of the time