Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[Martin]

Idk why Lati is getting so much hate tbh. While it seems to just have Healing Wish, people are seriously underselling its ability to do what it does well. I mean, sure, it has a bit of 4mss (it wants h-wish+defog+roost+draco+psy+lure move on one set), but... well, that is all I see with Lati. People moan about how it is too weak, but IMO Psychic is just so leagues better on it than Psyshock is that the argument of it being over-reliant on Draco for good damage can just get thrown out of the window. If you look at my RMT, my Lati actually lacks Draco because I think it is self-sufficient enough to not need to rely on it. To illustrate what I am trying to say...

184 SpA Life Orb Latias Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 161-191 (47.2 - 56%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 172-203 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now, the main complaint is that people moan about it being noticably weaker than Latios, making it over-reliant on Draco, but even without full investment you are hitting nearly as hard as Latios. While you could blame it on the BP difference and say that Latios could also run Psychic, the fact is that Latios is better with Psyshock while Latias is better with Psychic simply because Latios has benefits from the mixed attacking potential it provides while Latias doesn't really gain much from using it due to it not aiming to crack skulls. Sure, Latias' dracos don't hurt as much, but Latias isn't the kind of Pokemon who you spam Draco on, and instead you play it with a more conservative lean. Wheras Latios is aiming to nuke anything which doesn't resist Draco, Latias is aiming to retain its SpA unless it absolutely needs to let it drop, clicking Psychic on most turns when it doesn't use a status move. Does it do this well? Hell yeah. Is it better than Starmie? Probably not, but I can't say that Starmie is leagues better than Latias (to the point of saying that Starmie and Lati should switch places) considering that the only comparisons I can draw are that they clear hazards and that they are psychic-types. Starmie is more like Latios: aiming to nuke stuff with analytic Hydro Pumps, and comparing it to latias isn't great, but when I compare them I think that they are on almost exactly the same level, with Starmie being maybe one rung better than Latias (assuming that each sub-rank is three rungs).

I personally think that Starmie should be moved up to A and that Latias should stay in A, as I simply can't see Latias on the same level as stuff like Klefki and Poli tbh. Starmie is undersold hugely on the current list (i'd go as far as saying that I think it is a rung above half of the current A rank tbh), and if that is what people want Latias should be ranked relative to then it should move up and not the other way around.

 

[AM]

Idk why Lati is getting so much hate tbh. While it seems to just have Healing Wish, people are seriously underselling its ability to do what it does well. I mean, sure, it has a bit of 4mss (it wants h-wish+defog+roost+draco+psy+lure move on one set), but... well, that is all I see with Lati. People moan about how it is too weak, but IMO Psychic is just so leagues better on it than Psyshock is that the argument of it being over-reliant on Draco for good damage can just get thrown out of the window. If you look at my RMT, my Lati actually lacks Draco because I think it is self-sufficient enough to not need to rely on it. To illustrate what I am trying to say...

184 SpA Life Orb Latias Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 161-191 (47.2 - 56%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 172-203 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Now, the main complaint is that people moan about it being noticably weaker than Latios, making it over-reliant on Draco, but even without full investment you are hitting nearly as hard as Latios. While you could blame it on the BP difference and say that Latios could also run Psychic, the fact is that Latios is better with Psyshock while Latias is better with Psychic simply because Latios has benefits from the mixed attacking potential it provides while Latias doesn't really gain much from using it due to it not aiming to crack skulls. Sure, Latias' dracos don't hurt as much, but Latias isn't the kind of Pokemon who you spam Draco on, and instead you play it with a more conservative lean. Wheras Latios is aiming to nuke anything which doesn't resist Draco, Latias is aiming to retain its SpA unless it absolutely needs to let it drop, clicking Psychic on most turns when it doesn't use a status move. Does it do this well? Hell yeah. Is it better than Starmie? Probably not, but I can't say that Starmie is leagues better than Latias (to the point of saying that Starmie and Lati should switch places) considering that the only comparisons I can draw are that they clear hazards and that they are psychic-types. Starmie is more like Latios: aiming to nuke stuff with analytic Hydro Pumps, and comparing it to latias isn't great, but when I compare them I think that they are on almost exactly the same level, with Starmie being maybe one rung better than Latias (assuming that each sub-rank is three rungs).

I personally think that Starmie should be moved up to A and that Latias should stay in A, as I simply can't see Latias on the same level as stuff like Klefki and Poli tbh. Starmie is undersold hugely on the current list (i'd go as far as saying that I think it is a rung above half of the current A rank tbh), and if that is what people want Latias should be ranked relative to then it should move up and not the other way around.

Yeah there's a pretty immense difference with Latias in that one of them is able to threaten some of the top tier threats better, a pretty significant one in Clefable, and big surprise it isn't Latias. Psychic is a team specific asset on Latis depending on the nature of teams not being able to inflict heavy damage on AV Azumarill and Torn-T is a very considerable tradeoff you have to make seeing as how the former is actually good when people stop bashing the set solely out of ignorance and the latter is such a main stay on a ton of teams. What it does well is based on player capability and in my eyes and for a veeeery long time doesn't hold a candle to Latios' realistic team-building constraint where it can cater moves to break checks in a much more effective manner due to the "a good offense is a good defense" mentality.

Seriously can people stop advertising their RMT's? It's so cringe worthy sorry gamer boy but you're one of many that does to try and prove a point. Also I know what you're trying to say with the calc but that isn't even realistic to begin with when a Knock Off is coming next.

No the main gripe is that it doesn't actually do its job in a manner where its impact is on the level of all the other A ranked stuff. These are by far either large team-building constraints, such as Kyurem-B, or much more dominating forces in the metagame, such as Tyranitar. Starmie is much more of a cleaner than Latias will be seeing as how it can run a Natural Cure variant with its Life Orb set to, in a general sense, not care about things like Thundurus and take a guess which one is being hit first by a +2 Serperior?

I can most certainly say Latias is on par with some of the A- stuff lol. Starmies offensive set is killer against some offenses, Jirachi is a fantastic mon in A-, Rotom-W is pretty consistent with all these sand builds, Klefki just sits there and sets Spikes everywhere along with being one of the few non shitty checks to Weavile who is already a pretty hefty constraint to building, the term "Volcarona 6-0s your team" is actually a legitimate thing that cements itself in its current position. Latias is much more suited to A-, having it in the same rank to the likes of M-Gard and Tyranitar just as two examples is seriously off :/

 

[Kibblecat]

--> A-: After spending a long time trying to use the Poison Heal SD set because I like it (which is admittedly great stall breaker with SD too, but that's neither here nor there to my point), I wasn't sold on it, thinking B+ Rank was a good place for it, sitting on par with some of the other best things in that slot such as (for me) Terrakion. The sash technician set was about the same - it's got good utility and if you can keep the sash intact (good luck) it can emergency-check (and even lure) some things it's not meant to, like Talonflame. Giving the thing a Life Orb after reading Albacore's post was what sold it for me as it becomes a really surprising method of breaking through lots of common things that think they can switch in, like Clefable, Gliscor, Heatran, and TankChomp. In particular, beating Tank Chomp and Hippo while also being able to discourage non-offensive Heatran from switching in covers a good deal of the rocks setters in the metagame. On that note, it's also a superb check to sand able to easily beat Tar and Excadrill with strong priority and to threaten Hippo with Bullet Seed and, if need be for whatever reason, Spore. It's also a great Dark-check which is invaluable in a metagame full of dark type offense (thinking of Bisharp and the aforementioned Tar here, although Bish isn't as big as he once was), although naturally it'd be a lot higher up the system if it was a reliable answer to Weavile (which it's not). Looking at A-, it's easily as valuable as a lot of the things in there - admittedly none of them are in a role quite like Breloom, but the ability to check everything Breloom does is significantly more valuable in today's metagame than what most of B+ does. Looking at B+, I can't see anything that can put the same level of pressure on the most common threats as Breloom... I mean, what, we've got Mega Latias or, more offensively... Mamoswine, Dragonite and Rain Sweepers :/ I might not see the same as what everyone else sees, but when I look at the list I see Breloom as light years ahead of everything in B+ and at least on par with a good deal of A-. Quite enthusiastically supporting this rise.

I don't really have enough current experience with any of the other noms, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

I'm gonna try to do this once more and nominate Nidoqueen for C+. This thing really is just as good as King, having better defensive capabilities and the ability to set up SR/Toxic Spikes easier in contrast to Nidoking's offensive prowess.

Maybe she's not as powerful, but her bulky offensive set is able to shit on Klefki, check Clefable and other fairies very well, can use Stealth Rock effectively, beats many popular Taunt users (such as Gengar) and is very hard to switch into due to her impressive coverage. She's not to be played like Nidoking, you need to take advantage of her better bulk and ability to switch better into attacks, kinda like Latias when compared to Latios.

One thing she can do and Nidoking can't is being a defensive tank who can set up Toxic Spikes in conjunction with a Rocky Helmet. She becomes a decent check to Mega Lopunny considering it's not 2HKOed by Ice Punch and can 2HKO in return after Rocky Helmet damage. Of course, she has severe competition from other bulky ground-types, especially Garchomp and Hippo, but the ability to check fairies rather easily is a huge advantage.

#BringQueen2C+

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Do you have any replays showcasing Queen's capabilities, especially in relation to King?

Just asking since most evidence as of yet shows King being more dominant. Also you listed some sets that have use in theory, but theory means nothing if application doesn't follow suit. On paper that all sounds fine and dandy, but that's also just on paper.

Also you document Queen's superior bulk, but can you list or explain how this distinguished it from King other than a hypothetical Mega Lopunny counter?

If not, I don't see this nom gaining traction.

 

[Albacore]

thoughts about steels

In all honesty I could see Klefki rise to A rank, it's a pure support mon but said support is extremely good imo, it just has the perfect combination of qualities to be an excellent fit on a lot of offensive teams, not only does it check a lot of things which tend to heavily threaten offense, it also provides speed control. The main problem with Klefki it that it eats up a moveslot which limits your team to only 4 big offensive threats, however, it's able to provide so much offensive pressure on the opponent through the combination of Spikes and TWave that you really don't miss that slot too much. The very fact that it's one of the only viable Spikes setters for offense is fantastic, especially in a metagame where hazards are as dominant as they are now. The whole thing about it being easy to switch into is kinda true, but given that it mostly fits on HO, a lot of the time, all it really needs to do is force something out and it's pretty much done its job. If a +1 MAltaria switches out to Raikou to eat up a TWave, then Klefki has basically done its job. And if said Altaria is weakened to the point where Klefki is no longer needed, it can just stay in and set up 2 layers of Spikes. That's another great thing about Klefki, it comes in use even when you're sacking it, and unlike slower spikers even if you fuck up and mispredict and have it get 2HKOed, it's still going to be able to get a layer of Spikes or a TWave off which can change the course of the battle. Calling something "really good death fodder" doesn't seem too flattering, but in Klefki's case it's actually a good quality since it's almos talways able to do something while it's beaing foddered off, espeically given its resilience to priority. Sure, it's stopped by Sableye, but so are Skarmory and Ferrothorn, and they're respectively 1 and 2 subranks higher than it. Heck, Klefki can at least deal some damage to it, Play Rough does 40% to the standard spread which prevents it from reliably swicthing in if it's even a little bit weakened, so if anything, Sableye's popularity is a plus for Klefki at least when compred to other Spikers.

Jirachi really shouldn't move up though. All of its sets are pretty flawed, Wishtect is kinda bad and super easy to take advantage of since it relies on Wish as its recovery, SubToxic is pretty cool at luring bulky Grounds and Waters but really flaters against most faster things, Mix Lure just isn't that strong in general and is pretty easy to beat once people figure out what's going on and Scarf has all the flaws you'd expect from a scarfer, plus the fact that it's pretty weak and relies way too much on flinches to revenge kill certain things, and most of the time I'd much rather use Klefki since it can actually switch into Weavile and provides far more team support. It's not hard to take advantage of generally speaking, there's slight variety in the sets but once the opponent figures out the ste in question it won't have too much of a hard time dealing with it in most cases. It's a good mon, but it just does not match up with anything currently in A rank, in fact it's pretty much the perfect A- rank if you ask me.

As for Metagross, it's okay but I don't think I would put it above C+ simply becuase it's pretty much deadweight outside of its specific niches, as good as these niches may be. It's great at trapping Psychics and checking certain Fairies, however, once you ask it to do anything else it kinda falls flat on its face from my experience. This is mostly becuase of its really bad 4MSS preventing it from threatening a large potion of the tier at once, you need Meteor Mash, Bullet Punch and Pursuit, and without EQ you're beaten by Steel-types, particularly Bisharp, without Zen Headbutt Keldeo, Talonflame and YZard just laugh at you, Ice Punch is barely a viable option but if you don't want to lose to Lando-T completely it can be used I guess, and no matter what you run you're not getting past Hippowdon or Slowbro, especially since, unlike most things that are walled by these two, it doesn't even have the luxury of being able to run Toxic due to its Assault Vest. When you compare it to Banded Scizor who mostly fills the same roles, it's a bit better at its specific role of trapping Latis and swicthing into Fairies, sure, but it's a lot worse outside of that since it doesn't have Scizor's powerful U-Turn to weaken its checks, and its Bullet Punch is significantly weaker, so it being 2 subranks below it seems prerfectly reasonable. I guess I could see it alongside some of the weaker stuff in B- like Magneton or Sylveon, but then you have stuff like Lucario and Crawdaunt and Toxicorak and Tyrantrum which all have pretty good niches and the ability to perform well outside of them as well.

Anyway, we would like to hear thoughts on Mew to A- and Politoed to B+. A couple of other things were brought up, but I'd like to hear about those two in particular becuase the others involve things either moving to or dropping from A+ rank, and we've decided to focus on A/A- ranks at the moment.

Mew : The extreme popularity of Weavile and Dark-types in general, the fact that it gets curbtomped by 3 out of 4 current S rank threats, and the rise of Sableye stall are a pain for it. All things considered, it's able to take on a pretty large portion of the tier defensively, it's still an okay defogger in a tier filled with hazards (one of the only ones that isn't complete Bisharp food), and its stallbreaker set is still a massive pain for bulkier teams, but the decline of balance, especially the slow passive kind it steamrolls, makes its niche as a stallbreaker less valuable.

Politoed : We originally considered Kingdra for A- since we felt like it should be the same rank as Politoed, due to the simple fact that it is basically mandatory on rain. However, Halcyon mentioned that rain wasn't that good at the moment, partly due to the high amount of priority seen on HO teams nowadays, and that rain's matchup-based nature made Politoed fit more at home in B+, which is full of Pokemon that can be either extremely effective or deadweight depending on what team they're up against. If this happens, Kabutops will probably drop to B rank too.

 

[AM]

I mentioned to bludz that politoed and kingdra should occupy the same rank. I think the philosophy behind politoed being above kingdra is kind of outdated. What I can manage on my phone for now.

 

[NotSoClutch]

I mentioned to bludz that politoed and kingdra should occupy the same rank. I think the philosophy behind politoed being above kingdra is kind of outdated. What I can manage on my phone for now.

Should that be the case though? While most rain teams tend to favor the use of Kingdra, a viable rain team can be made without a Kingdra. Pokemon like Keldeo, mega pert, Kabutops, etc are still reasonably effective options in replacing Kingdra, but Politoed, on the other hand, fills a role that no other Pokemon can fulfill in anywhere near the capacity that Politoed can. No other rain setter comes close to the ability of a Politoed.

With the most popular rain builds giving Kingdra the spotlight, I understand the philosophy behind keeping toed and Kingdra in the same rank, but I think the original logic still stands. I only wish I had a replay of a rain team I faced a couple of days ago to more or less give a good example of a Kingdraless rain team that works in the meta. Politoed should stay A-

As for Mew, I think a drop is warranted. Mew's stallbreaker set doesn't seem nearly as effective as it once was with the rise of offense and sableye stall. I've also been noticing a rise of SD Talonflame (at least on ladder), which gives mew a lot of issues. I don't have a lot to say about Mew as I haven't used Mew on a consistent basis, but the few times I have used Mew, it has been really....lackluster compared to past results. Mew to A-

 

[thesecondbest]

I don't care what happens to Mew but if it drops drop Celebi. The latter is better only against keldeo and when using stab grass moves, while me is way more versatile with better typing and a kickass stall breaking set. Mew even gets heal bell if you want that. It has fire blast ice beam willo, and more that Celebi doesn't. It is clearly better and the rankings should reflect that

 

[Alfalfa]

I don't care what happens to Mew but if it drops drop Celebi. The latter is better only against keldeo and when using stab grass moves, while me is way more versatile with better typing and a kickass stall breaking set. Mew even gets heal bell if you want that. It has fire blast ice beam willo, and more that Celebi doesn't. It is clearly better and the rankings should reflect that

Mew has a large movepool for certain, but it really does not utilize anything effectively aside from a Defog or stallbreaker set. The surprise factor from Mew's movepool really does not get utilized that well, since Mew has issues consistently using such movepool without being overshadowed by other mons. Mew's stallbreaker set is not really that effective against stall when most stall squads consist of Mega Sableye, meaning its only real set of value is Defog. You mention Keldeo as Celebi's only relevant target to check, but you are forgetting Breloom and Serperior, both of which are very good at the moment. I am not certain of the value of Baton Pass Celebi at the moment (its most proficient set), for I have not done much battling of recent. Before you tell me that Mew can Baton Pass as well, Celebi baits in Pokemon like Talonflame, Heatran, Mega Scizor, and Tornadus-T that its usual teammates would love to take advantage of, whereas Mew's usual switch-ins consist of Pokemon that are expecting Defog or stallbreaker sets, meaning its teammates do not have as large of a palette of Mew switch-ins to take advantage of.

 

[Bluemargay]

Celebi does get some moves that Mew doesn't, mainly Healing Wish and Leech Seed. Not to mention having two types means that it hits things more effectively and makes for a better offensive pokemon. I made to 22 on the ladder with an offensive Celebi on my team consisting of Earth Power, Nasty Plot, Psychic and Giga Drain with Life Orb.

 

[RufflesPro]

I've been meaning to make this nomination for quite a while, but I never had any replays, now that I got some, I would like to make it right now:

C+ > B- ​

I realize that Infernape has always been noobishly nominated to move up every now and then, but this time its different. Infernape deserves B- not for any of its more common sets, (Sash Lead, Mixed LO, NP, SD, Scarf & Band), but for one set and one only: Defensive Infernape. I started as a gimmick at first, but then it was soon to be realized that it was actually good and even got a set on smogon's dex, but It think people still don't realize how effective this set is.

Before anything, this is the set that I'm talking about:

Smogon's Set

Infernape @ Leftovers
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 248 HP / 88 Def / 124 SpD / 48 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Slack Off
- Low Kick

The set I usually use

Infernape @ Leftovers
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 224 HP / 252 Def / 32 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Will-O-Wisp
- Slack Off
- Close Combat*
small notice: I realized Low kick is prolly better but I've never thought of that until I saw the actual set on smogon xP

The main difference in our sets is that I have a little bit less speed (just enough to outspeed jolly hoopa), much more defensive investment, and rocks over taunt

I realized that still, a lot of people may think that this set is "gimmick" but it's actually very far from that, it's, IMO, the literal definition of viable innovation.

The biggest selling point to this set is actually Infernape's outstanding defensive typing. Why some of you ask? Because Infernape is one of the very few mons that can counter (yes, COUNTER) every single Bisharp, Weavile, and Mega Scizor set that viably exists in OU today. Resisting all of their stab, outpacing all of them except weavile, having access to WoW, and even having access to solid, consistent healing in Slack Off, makes Infernape a solid counter. Obviously, Infernape walls and checks a lot more, and at the same time it gets destroyed by many mons, but these three in particular are extremely hard to counter on their own, especially as a heavy Balanced builder, and having one Pokemon to counter them all at the same time who has access to consistent recovery, WoW, Taunt, and even Stealth Rock is basically godsend to Balance. The biggest problem to Balanced nowadays is physically offensive spam, especially dark spam. Garchomp's main reason to its popularity is because it checks physically offensive spam pretty good, but obviously it stops dead to Weavile, unlike Infernape. This same reason is why RestTalk Keldeo is getting more and more popular.

The two closest mons to having the defensive viability of Infernape are Cobalion and Keldeo; however, they are both outclassed (as consistent defensive answers to the three aforementioned Pokemon only!) because they do not have consistent recovery (restTalk is not consistent and takes 2 moveslots) and they do not have access to Will-o-Wisp (Though Keldeo has Scald, which is almost as good as WoW, and Cobalion has T-wave).

Aside from that, Defensive Infernape has multiple nice assets to it, Close Combat / Low Kick actually do very decent damage, even if uninvested, and allow Infernape to get past Heatran, most team's main WoW absorber. It also has the option to have either Taunt or Stealth Rock as its last move, both which it can use very reliably. Another thing about this Infernape set is that is very surprising, catches the opponent off guard, and can cripple its offensive set's switchins, meaning it gets a free wisp on something coming to supposedly wall Infernape, such as Landorus-T, Azumarill, Hippowdon, or Slowbro.

Obviously, Infernape has many flaws, getting shut down by the likes of Defensive Starmie and Latis (although burn is somewhat nice) while having to rely on teammates for opposing water types / faster pokemon that threaten to KO / any pokemon that can ohko/2hko that doesn't mind burn too much. However, its overall viability and utility should allow it to be B-. (Oh, and did I mention that it's a pretty decent Hoopa-U check?)

Also, here are some replays I got today showing Infernape's usefulness:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-289246602 - Here Infernape catches the opponent off guard and gets a turn 1 burn on Lando-T. Later, it completely walls Hoopa-U, cripples it with burn, kills magnezone with Close Combat, and then burns Mega Pinsir, after surviving a Quick Attack at -1 (That was actually max roll too!)!
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-289262403 - After unfortunately missing WoW on Latios, it manages to burn Azumarill, completely crippling it, gets up rocks early game, and then even gets up rocks again (after being spun) late-game to expedite victory (oh and takes out weakened ferrothorn).
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-289384805 - Here Infernape takes a Specs Shadow Ball from Raikou and manages to burn it, making it much easier to handle for the team, then it gets some crucial damage vs. offensive starmie (helps because if starmie goes out rocks can stay up), and then finally comes in on a swords dancing scizor, easily takes +2 BP, burns, heals, and then takes it out, aka countering it spectacularly.

 

[Srn]

Gonna be a short explanation but here goes:

I think mew should stay at A because the reason it was sent there in the first place hasn't changed: the ability to beat almost every hazard setter. Ferro, lanT, chomp, ttar, etc etc all are taunted, wisp'd, knock'd off, and just plain neutered. SR and spikes have not decreased in effectiveness, and if rise of dark types was such a big issue then every psychic/ghost should be dropping, not just mew. The fact is, dark and ghost types definitely don't get a free switch into mew either; tyranitar, bisharp, and weavile all fear wisp and gengar fears knock off. Its biggest niche was never really one as a stallbreaker, although it does do that quite fucking well, its good because of its matchup vs hazard based teams, and should stay there because hazard based teams are both good and common.

 

[bludz]

I am pretty sure Mew was not raised from A- to A for its Defog set. I mean, when people ask what are the top hazard removers in the tier, the general answer is Latis, Starmie, and then Excadrill. I'm aware that a general consensus may be wrong but this is such an obvious one that it would be silly for Mew to be excluded if it actually were one. There is a reason Mew isn't on that short list, and I don't think Mew deserves to be a sub rank above Starmie (or Latias, which looks like it's going to drop) for its Defog set. It's simply more team dependent (fits on balance, far too passive for offense, whereas the other 3 can all fit on both) and is setup fodder for offensive threats like SD Talonflame and DD Charizard X.

Stallbreaker has been the better set IMO, not for its ability to beat full stall (since most carry Mega Sableye), but for its ability to almost singlehandedly shut down many balance teams (thinking those Hippo / MZor / Clef builds). However, two problems have arisen. One, balance is getting a little faster and more offensive so it doesn't get steamrolled by powerful breakers. This means that Taunt doesn't shut down entire teams any more. Two, Hoopa-Unbound is a thing and is starting to get a little more popular. I'd also argue that because this is Mew's better set, hazard stacking actually hurts it because it hampers its ability to wall things.

 

[Costi]

Hi people,

I'm going to make a nom on my own, hope it's not garbage lol.

Conkeldurr C+ --> B-

So. I thought about this nom in the last few days and i eventually come up with this nom now, seeing breloom is going to move up.

I feel that conkeldurr is a really cool pokemon right now and the set i'm talking about is the life orb sheer force set.

The ability to check Mlopunny and the very popular Sand offense right now is invaluable. This mon, like breloom, is able to do massive damages to pokemon that usually are going to switch into the incoming mach punch. Clefable, for example is smacked down by poison jab, hippo is 2hkoed by ice punch and many other switchins are not safe too. Things like slowbro, skarmory and azumarill.

While slowbro and skarmory are not used on offense team, azumarill is usually a solid switchin that it's destroyed. Sand offense that carry either hippo or ttar not appreciate the presence of Conke.

The wide movepool conke has let it be a pain for fat balance build (even if now are not that common) and thanks to how good mach punch is right now is good against offense too.

His matchup against almost every hazard setter is awesome. Garchomp is ohko and that is a huge plus for phis oriented offense team. Heatran is ohkoed by superpower, even if it is not that needed. As i said before, it has good matchup against hippo, skarm, landog, clefable and ferro, basically every hazard setter.

Having a dark type check is cool. Weavile is popular as fuck, bisharp is bisharp and you always want a reliable check to them. Breloom is destroyed by ice shard while is still able to check bisharp.

Overall i think that the high amount of the things it can handle is really good right now and maybe it deserve to move up. Heck, also manaphy is basically demolished by tpunch + mach punch.

Just want to hear your opinions :) if needed, i have some replays of this thing put in work, but i'm on phone and i'm not able to upload them. Sorry for english mistakes.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

Should Zoroark be ranked now? An event Zoroark with Sludge Bomb got released, which means it can now take a shit on all the fairies who used to wall it. This could mean a Nasty Plot set could be fairly effective. What do you think?

 

[Mr James Grey]

Should Zoroark be ranked now? An event Zoroark with Sludge Bomb got released, which means it can now take a shit on all the fairies who used to wall it. This could mean a Nasty Plot set could be fairly effective. What do you think?

Since it has just been released, it should probably be given a little time to see if its even worth bothering with. I have a feeling that, unfortunately for our foxy friend, that won't be the case. It's pretty frail, which for an offensive mon wouldn't be a problem, except that it sits in an awkward speed tier of 105 where it can easily be outpaced and ohko'd by many top tier threats. Without any form of priority (other than sucker punch, but with a special set this wont be doing much) Zoroark's speed really holds it back from being viable in this meta when compared to other special attackers in the tier. But like I said, we will have to wait and see, and shouldn't jump the gun to rank it just yet.

 

[pika pal]

Generally, when mons get new tools like this, does any kind of dedicated testing take place, or do we simply wait and see whenever someone decides to play around with it and makes a case if it works well? I doubt Zoroark will warrant this given it would at absolute best maybe be a C-Rank, but I'm curious how things are evaluated in general when events give them in particular something new.

As far as Mew goes, I take issue with the Stallbreaker set because Stall has too many mons that can exploit it like Mega Sableye as a staple, and Balance teams aren't using mons that are as defensive as before, which were the parts of these Cores Mew was best at dismantling. Having tried it myself, my big issue with Mew is that if its role is adequately prepared for by the opponent, it becomes extremely easy to take free turns from Mew, which against offense and current balance is a significant problem. Every other hazard remover it competes with can usually present at least an adequate enough threat to limit the opponent's switch options, since they encourage things like Bulky Steels/Waters or Pursuit trappers. With Mew, things like Refresh Altaria, either Mega Zard, or MG Clefable (to name a couple) can switch into it with basically no consequence and set up some more or otherwise prepare to cripple the switch-in in Clef's case.

My issue with Mew therein is that it's prepared for very easily in building a team to cover the two or three competing mons for what it overlaps between Utility, Status, Hazard Removal, and Stall breaking, so I've yet to see a team that isn't prepared for Mew in particular.

 

[Jaguar360]

Generally, when mons get new tools like this, does any kind of dedicated testing take place, or do we simply wait and see whenever someone decides to play around with it and makes a case if it works well? I doubt Zoroark will warrant this given it would at absolute best maybe be a C-Rank, but I'm curious how things are evaluated in general when events give them in particular something new.

As far as Mew goes, I take issue with the Stallbreaker set because Stall has too many mons that can exploit it like Mega Sableye as a staple, and Balance teams aren't using mons that are as defensive as before, which were the parts of these Cores Mew was best at dismantling. Having tried it myself, my big issue with Mew is that if its role is adequately prepared for by the opponent, it becomes extremely easy to take free turns from Mew, which against offense and current balance is a significant problem. Every other hazard remover it competes with can usually present at least an adequate enough threat to limit the opponent's switch options, since they encourage things like Bulky Steels/Waters or Pursuit trappers. With Mew, things like Refresh Altaria, either Mega Zard, or MG Clefable (to name a couple) can switch into it with basically no consequence and set up some more or otherwise prepare to cripple the switch-in in Clef's case.

My issue with Mew therein is that it's prepared for very easily in building a team to cover the two or three competing mons for what it overlaps between Utility, Status, Hazard Removal, and Stall breaking, so I've yet to see a team that isn't prepared for Mew in particular.

From the last time something happened like this (Serperior and Emboar getting Contrary/Reckless), there was a lot of dedicated testing before they got ranked. Serperior was ranked pretty early on since what it could do was obvious, but Emboar took like a week or two to get ranked and we had to do more research with it. I think Zoroark falls into the latter case, but it might be easier with it since it's only getting one move and some people have played around with it before.

 

[Albacore]

Sludge Bomb Zoroark isn't even available on the sim yet so let's not be too hasty. It's a pretty minor change compared to stuff like Megas and newly released abilities, and whether or not Sludge Bomb is enough to make Zoroark viable is far from obvious, so it's going to require a good amount of testing and at least a couple weeks to form an actual conclusion.

In any case, I will be trying out Sludge Bomb Zoroark ASAP and I urge you to do the same, both NP and Mixed with Sucker Punch and Low Kick seem okay in theory, though its mediocre speed and dissapointing damage output are still legitimate problems for it, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

edit : okay apparently it was availible as PS lied to me. But still, don't rush this guys.

 

[Kibblecat]

Just a few cents on Zoroark's new toy, in a statement of still standing comparisons about things that share properties with Zoroak:

Hoopa-U gets: Nasty Plot and/or Gunk Shot, so neither the ability to set up nor the newfound access to poison coverage give Zoroark a niche here, with the exception of slightly better speed. Defensive typing of Hoopa is neither here nor there because Zoroark is crippled just as much by its frailty.

Weavile gets: Low Kick+priority (in a better secondary STAB that's harder to manipulate because it's not Sucker Punch). Better speed. Also gains pursuit over this - Zoroark can but significantly less effectively even when fully physical, and has no moveslots in mixed. Weavile can't go mixed but can achieve similar effectiveness to the NP set by setting up SD. If you desperately want poison coverage, Weavile even gets Poison Jab, but it doesn't even need it with good neutral ice hits on most Fairies.

Bisharp gets: Sucker Punch and Low Kick, SD to set up (by comparison to the NP Zoroark set). Better secondary typing, steel which makes the want of poison coverage redundant, but loses out on speed. Significantly less gimmicky and very effective ability which adds a ton of utility against defoggers, most of which Zoroark straight up loses to (not that I'm saying Illusion isn't hilarious and very effective when abused properly). Bisharp is the loosest comparison here but as an A rank dark type, there's definitely a point to be made of it.

If we want to branch out of typing I could write a paras on other special sweepers here that can already boost, outspeed Zoroark, and cover everything they need to.

I don't need to list any more dark types to show that Sludge Bomb or not, Zoroark still doesn't have it's own niche in OU, even on paper. Every possible reason to use it is covered better by another Dark type higher up. Currently everything ranked has at least one niche of it's own that isn't duplicated (at least anywhere near as effectively) anywhere in the tier, but given that Zoroark can't run both of it's sets at once, even it's unique combination of possibilities don't give it a niche ahead of any of the aforementioned three (depending on what job you want it to do). And, well, if one needs the combined traits of Hoopa-U, Weavile and Bisharp all in one slot, and concludes that they'll top the ladder by filling that last slot with Zoroark, there are probably already bigger holes in the team than a versatile dark type.

I know I'm kind of rushing into writing it off in the same way that some people so far have rushed into nomming it for an exalted position in C-, but on the other hand I can't actually see how any play testing will demonstrate it to be as worthwhile in it's given roles than any of the above. They all do many of the things that Zoroark can do, just better; there's really nothing Zoroark can do that make it worth choosing over something else. It's always had Illusion and thats literally all I can think of...

TL;DR: Getting poison coverage doesn't make it into a miniature 'best-of-all' dark type in OU, and it's easy enough to see that on paper without testing it. I can't expect not to be proven wrong in testing, and naturally it's right to say that we shouldn't be hasty in judgements on things that aren't testable, but I really think that even with Sludge Bomb, there's not a reason to use it over anything. Reasons-on-paper to use something don't always come with real reasons-in-practice (i.e. testing based evidence, which is the value of testing), but I do believe that any good practically demonstrated reason (with replays) to use a Pokemon should be easily explained on paper for it to be shown to be anything more than fluke. Right now on paper all I can see are reasons to use other things in it's place which leads me to believe that even replays wouldn't sufficiently evidence ranking this thing. As I said, I agree it's hasty to say already it'll never have a niche, and I can't yet expect to not be proven wrong, but my prediction is that this thing still doesn't have enough going for it to even hit D rank, let alone any higher. I don't see what disagreeing would gain if it did hit D-rank though, so that's all I have to say on Zoroark before it's testable.

EDIT: Oh, further case in point that might have saved a lot of other words above. Mega Houndoom gets an exact same move set as the Zoroark NP set, in NP / Fire Blast / Dark Pulse / Sludge Bomb or whatever the heck it runs. I dont even know if Doomer needs sludge bomb since it gets STAB on it's fire moves, but, well, case in point, there's already something better with exactly the same capabilities as Zoroark (at least ones that relate to the changed access to Sludge Bomb), and I think the combination of Low Kick and Sucker Punch on a mixed set is sufficiently covered above (and somewhat underwhelming on a mixed set...).

 

[Rechi]

Albacore
Sludge Bomb is available despite what the Teambuilder says. I've been using it all day.

I doubt this post is gonna change anybody's mind but I'll give it a shot anyway. I've been testing Zoroark out today and I feel like it's worth talking about even if it's just for at least D rank. One of the worst things about Zoroark before, besides all the super obvious shit, was that it was basically a free switch-in for Fairy types no matter what moves it ran. That's no longer the case as LO Sludge Bomb 2HKOs every relevant Fairy type in the tier except Diancie. Dark/Poison/Fighting coverage hits everything in the game cept Toxicroak, which frees up the fourth moveslot for things like Sucker Punch, Taunt, Trick, U-Turn, Nasty Plot, etc, etc. Like some guy above me said, its speed tier isn't that great and it sucks that it gets outsped by a lot of relevant threats but beating fast, offensive mons and sweeping teams isn't really its role. Zoroark's best used for luring in your main sweeper's predictable defensive checks and OHKOing them/wearing them down so your other pokemon can sweep.

For example, in most of my games I've been disguising Zoroark as Mega Lopunny. Most people's switch-ins to Mega Lopunny are bulky Ground/Psychic/Fairy types, none of which appreciate taking a LO Dark Pulse/Sludge Bomb to the face. Mega Lopunny is so threatening by itself that even if someone does suspect Zoroark, most people are afraid enough of that Fake Out+Return life that they switch to their checks anyway. Sure, other Dark types like Bisharp and Hoopa-Unbound could wear down Lopunny's checks for it just as well, better probably, but most of the time they have to rely on double switches in order to get in. Double switches can be predicted or exploited through entry hazards and once you're in, there's not much stopping the opposing pokemon from switching out besides the odd Pursuit from Bisharp. Wallbreaking's a lot easier when the walls come to you instead.

Am I saying that Zoroark doesn't come with risks? Course not. Not everybody's going to get fooled and you always have to make sure that Illusion doesn't get broken too early. But if you take that aside, you're left with a decent mixed attacker with great three move coverage, somewhat versatile options, and a surprise factor that can potentially cost the opponent a pokemon or two if they're not careful. And as far as I'm concerned, if something as risky, gimmicky, and team-specific as Shedinja can make it to D rank I don't see why Zoroark can't.

My meager replays. Haven't topped the ladder or anything but they're all I got:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-289975808
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-289695367
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-289576802
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-289568753

Edit: New replay, this time with a Mega Metagross team
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-290291844
Looking at my opponent's team I see that my Metagross has a lot going against if it wants to sweep. Slowking, Klefki, most likely Rocket Helmet Chomp and Scarf Rotom-H. And as much as I want to disguise Zoroark as Metagross, I'm probably going to need Metagross's Steel typing to switch into Heracross or Roserade at some point which means the disguise will be easier to see through if it takes damage before my Zoroark does. So what I do instead is disguise Zoroark as Garchomp, so it can persuade the opponent to bring in/not switch out their Slowking or Garchomp against it. This is how you're supposed to think when using Zoroark people.

Mega Medicham team replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-290769371
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-291019848

 

[Celticpride]

Let's stop the Zoroark discussion for the time being. No one has any experience using it (especially as long as Alba's point about it not being available on PS is still true) and any discussion on it will be theorymon for at least a few days. Posts regarding Zoroark will be deleted / ignored until the council puts it up for discussion or deems it unviable.

 

[bludz]

It's silly to theorize about this potential impact if we haven't used it in practice much. That's why Hoopa wasn't ranked directly upon its release, and other mons with new Hidden Abilities / moves did not receive instant ranking or change in ranking. I'm gonna have to ask that nobody brings up a case for Zoroark to be ranked for a tentative time period of ten days (which could be changed, I'll speak with the other guys about it). Test it out, come up with opinions on it (and we'll do the same), but please don't post them yet, because discussion about it right now simply will not be good. As Celticpride said, these posts will be deleted until we decide it is ok to post about it

EDIT: This is as good a time as any to post this, since it's kind of related. For unranked -> ranked nominations, posting directly in the thread isn't necessarily your best course of action. Since the VR council are the ones who decide what is ranked, we are the ones you need to convince. You are most likely better off PMing one of us with some replays + your argument, maybe a team with said mon (that can allow us to test out its capabilities), etc... either simultaneous to your post or prior to it. You can think of it as an optional screening process that will give you an idea of whether the nomination will be taken seriously or not. The difference is that with already ranked pokemon, we're obviously going to at least consider every nomination, whereas nominations like Milotic or Donphan and things of that nature probably will not be considered.

 

[Azureaper]

It's nice to see Nidoking mentioned. I wonder if a mixed set has been considered? Sucker punch OHKOs Latios, and poison jab punches through fairies with ease. Flamethrower will be weaker, but it'll still give steel types a hard time.