Other ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V2 - Check Post #2500 PG. 100

[AM]

Welp can't test teams right now cause of slow server so I guess I'll take some time to speak on stuff.

Empoleon should rise cause it's really just a sweet pivot and is better than half the stuff in B- and I guess personally to me is just on par utility wise to all the stuff residing in B. Yawn just lets it sort of grab momentum in the fact they're either forced to switch or take the sleep effect and this is pretty nice for balanced builds looking for that bit of breathing room. I guess I could go on and on about what it does but that's really just regurgitating the stuff that has already been said and stating the obvious.

I wouldn't raise this for its Custap set honestly it was just brought as a point to establish merit on that. I'd raise this on the merits of its Specially Defensive set which is actually awesome for being one of the few consistent checks to stuff like M-Diancie and M-Gardevoir at least from a defensive stand-point minus all the in-battle semantics. Also nice that it's one of the few sets in the tier that isn't completely floored by typical Landorus sets which is nice as well if we're talking about a pivotal tool as well.

Lets be real, just like Gary previously said, this needs to get the hell out of C+ rank rofl. I think the whole opportunity cost argument can only go so far when you realize this thing is hitting 600+ on the attack spectrum off the bat and is one of the stupidest things to try to switch into for fat teams because they're not feeling so fat and cushy when trying to eat up a HJK or coverage move from it. However I think this was already pointed out but I don't like the idea of M-Medicham in B rank simply cause of the choice of so many megas. It's not so much opportunity cost more so its a bit more team specific and luxury in a similar vein to M-Pidgeot to myself.

Yeah idk about this moving up to A+. This is the same thing with Hippowdon where all the niches are there but I don't feel strongly in the fact that they qualify itself as an A+ ranked threat more so that its role is consistent enough to maintain itself as one of the best A ranked mons similar to Garchomp and Hippowdon. This is coming from a lot of extended use of Starmie for awhile and while I was on board with the idea of it going to A+ I can't actually say that I feel that level of consistency anymore. A lot of times I feel like Starmie is just pressured as hell to maintain those hazards off the field but like all psychic hazard removers it sucks that it has to dance around these pursuit trappers and not putting itself in an unfavorable position. Sure you can argue that there is an opportunity cost in these pursuit trappers switching in and that it favors Starmie more but does it really to the level it surpasses the reward of the removal of Starmie? We're talking about a situation where losing that asset of hazard removal just paves the way for losing short term momentum and long term momentum in how the hazards can mitigate your long term goal. As for its offensive utility I think the reason why this is even being brought up to the table is for its offensive set which has coverage options to boot and ways to just screw over would be defensive checks like Ferrothorn with HP Fire and Empoleon with Thunderbolt. I never liked the aspect of it being worn down with the set and the fact that like stated before it just gets pressured to maintain hazards off the fields. Being one a grounded hazard remover always sucks because it leaves you prone to Spikes, which is something I feel the Latis have an advantage of over Starmie as a hazard remover. Eh I could go on forever but I think you get my idea. A+ seems sort of a bit much to myself.

Better than half the stuff in its ranking and people hype the CB set a lot, which is understandable, but Scarf set is kind of hilariously effective to against offensive minded teams. Not a whole lot to say here and gatr isn't actually superior to Tyrantrum to the point that it should be a sub-rank higher.

No definitive comment yet I've only been able to test it a bit in regards to its LO set, which is why it's being considered in the first place, but the no comment aspect is more of the fact that I'm gauging whether it should be B- cause it sure as hell should be C+ and looking better than half the C+ stuff practically.

Other stuff that was mentioned that I'm interested on like Zapdos I don't really have a comment on since I'm still testing it out and seeing where it fits.

 

[blinkie]

IDK why people are hyping up Custap Skarm so much tbh, it isn't that good of a lead or something. Against a good player, "guaranteed 2 hazards" is a lie as when people see 5 HO mons and then a random Skarm they will instantly realize it is Custap. Sometimes you can't even get SR up as Skarmory doesn't have too good of a speed tier lol and mons with Taunt like Azelf will shut you down. Speaking of its speed tier, it isn't fast enough to Taunt certain SR setters like fast Tran and speed creeping Rachi.(I always run enough for jolly loom) While Brave Bird is cool for suicide, you will have to pick between that or Iron Head for Mega Diancie, while either way Mega Sableye shuts you down(although tbh it was overhyped before). Even without this it is easy to limit Skarm to 1 hazard using the standard "Gym Leader method" by breaking sturdy with a random move and then proceeding to OHKO, or Knock Off as someone above me mentioned. If you are assuming that everyone will use the "Gym Leader method", then this leaves Custap Skarmory rather inferior or almost outclassed by Azelf unless you really need spikes, as Azelf has faster speed and skill swap. While Skarmory may be less obvious on lower ladder, most good players can see through both Custap Skarm and Azelf easily so it won't make too much of a difference.

tldr; Custap Skarm is not that good

Oh yeah but I still think Skarm should rise to A- lol as the specially defensive set can beat metagame defining threats such as Megagross, Landorus lacking Focus Blast and Mega Diancie. It distinguishes itself as it has reliable recovery over other checks to these threats. Great defensive typing and physical bulk also lets it beat non Fire Blast Mega Altaria and whirlwind out Scizor. Yeah I think everything else about spdef Skarm has been talked about a lot in the thread already though.

 

[bludz]

So after using Empoleon some I'm going to agree it warrants a rise to B. I mean first of all it's one of the few things that can resist Azumarill's STABs which is kind of a rarity besides Ferrothorn, Venusaur, Amoonguss (which can lose to BD sets anyway) and Tentacruel. On top of that it has a ridiculous amount of utility ranging from Stealth Rocks and Defog to stuff like Yawn and Roar. With a nice defensive typing, solid special attack and decent bulk it can usually put in work and actually acts as a check to a lot of things that even carry a coverage move for it such as Mega Diancie. Add all that together, call it a Talonflame check too and this mon is B rank IMO.

Alright so here I'm going to make probably a controversial nomination (hell, isn't every A+ -> S nomination controversial? Besides the recent Landorus one, I guess lol).

Thundurus A+ -> S
I think we all know that this pokemon is a god against offense. Priority T-Wave in conjunction with the trolly speed tier make it a force to be reckoned with it and it is one of the few mons in the game that can bring you back from almost any situation provided you get the hax. What it doesn't get enough credit for is the ability to break down defensive cores and depending on the set can even have a good matchup against stall. Nasty Plot sets destroy slower balance teams thanks to great coverage and a typing that actually makes it resistant to many of the priority attacks found on those builds such as Brave Bird from bulky Talonflame and Bullet Punch from Mega Scizor. Prankster Substitute is trolly as hell and is great for stalling out turns against Sand or Rain squads which carry some mons that can't be T-Waved (Excadrill and Swampert). The mixed attacker set is simply fantastic against a lot of teams too and despite not being as amazing versus offense is still pretty great and boasts the ability to destroy Chansey. Sets that opt for Grass Knot over HP [Ice] like NP / Tbolt / Grass Knot / Focus Blast or Tbolt / Knock Off / Superpower / Grass Knot put in massive work against many common stall cores (see: not Mega Venu or Mega Altaria) considering these sets can take out Chansey, Grass Knot destroys Quagsire and Unaware Clefs don't run much special defense. Granted you lose some coverage against offense but most people assume HP [Ice] anyway and GK is amazing for Hippowdon. All in all I think even though T-Wave + 3 attacks is the most common set, Thundurus has enough options at its disposal to hurt many different types of team builds and this warrants a rise to S rank IMO. It is frail and often put on a timer by LO, but I think NP sets are insanely good right now and they have a little better longevity. Granted I'm listing all these options and Thundurus can't do all these things at once (this is a very legit concern) but versatility was a big reason Mega Altaria rose to S and also one of the main reasons Landorus has so few reliable switch-ins and why Metagross is so good. It's also SR weak but is one of the few things that actually scares SpDef Talonflame which is running rampant through the tier right now (seriously try to take this thing on with counters to the SD set minus Rotom-W or Heatran with a Rock type move lol).

 

[BlueLobster]

To the people saying custap Skarm is not that good: While the points you made (especially blinkie) are quite true, there is one thing Skarm has over alot of common leads: type advantage. If you opt for BB + Iron Head (like me), you can bop many troubling pokes, such as MDiancie, TTar (unless bulky fire blast), Mamoswine, Clefable (though PDef variants with FB are a problem), taunt MVoir, taunt Keldeo, who is rising in popularity, and, while losing to Azelf, is a reasonably reliable lead, getting at least SR up unless a fast taunt or MEye. I agree it's being overhyped by the people here, but I think some people have gone the other way.

If you still think taunt is better than dual STAB on Skarm, that probably has something to do with it, iron head is far better in the meta rn with it's coverage, and Skarm's too slow to taunt anything that isn't pink or a sand setter before it sets SR.

 

[SINCEER]

I want to nominate Victini from B+ to A-

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the OU metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential. These Pokemon exert an above average presence in the metagame.

Victini is an excellent asset in this metagame, being able to break all types of archetypes.

It is an excellent stallbreaker, being able to break the Chansey / Skarm core and other common mons associated with stall, being able to 2hko Mega Sableye and outspeed it the turn after the speed drop to kill it after and even avoid recover stalling. Access to Energy helps it break Quagsire and other bulky water types that may switch in on it on a daily basis.

stallbreaking calcs

252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 249-294 (81.9 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 161-190 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 486-573 (75.7 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 234-276 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Victini Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 364-432 (92.3 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

On balance it destroys common switch ins that actually are not switch ins.A couple of Victini's checks or counters in this current OU meta is Tyranitar and Heatran, but its not like Victini needs oh that much team support to be able to check it's counters. One pokemon paired with Victini breaks all of its checks or counters which is Keldeo . Also, access to U-turn and Brick Break do not leave Victini compltely useless against pursuit Ttar or Heatran. From the calcs below you can see that Victini puts its so called "switch ins" to shame.

balance calcs

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 168-198 (49.2 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Victini U-turn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 176-208 (51.6 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 303-357 (86 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 262-310 (74 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 129-153 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

0 SpA Victini Energy Ball vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 124-146 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(This calc is here to show the contrast between V-Create and Energy Ball. V-creat does not the same but even more than an uninvested Energy Ball does to Rotom0

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 162+ Def Garchomp: 148-174 (35.2 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 24 Def Landorus-T: 259-306 (81.1 - 95.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-1 252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 190-225 (49.7 - 58.9%) -- 75% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 286-337 (74.8 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Lastly, Victini obviously breaks HO, too wide of an archetype to put up some calcs.

Conclusion

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits. These Pokemon exert a strong presence in the metagame.

After reading the overall statement for the A Ranking, I think we can conclude that Victini fills out alot of these traits. What are the common downfalls that people like to point out when trying to combat the argument? "Weak to rocks" "Bad defensive typing in Fire/Psychic" so on and so on. However, Victini's abiliy to break all archetypes with ease, be just an overall hard hitter,and when paired with Keldeo and hazard removal mon we can see it's easy to see its ability and potential rise above all the other B+ mons in its current viablity ranking. Along with an excellent abiliy in Victory Star which allows you to play with a bit more medium accuracy moves, I would say it is " fantastic in the OU metagame, and can sweep, and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits."These Pokemon exert a strong presence in the metagame.

Lets be honest ,This current meta is extremely matchup based :////. With a mon that can break all archetypes and improve accuracy of moves with otherwise mediocre accuracy that also usually hit hard, it is a very strong presence in the OU metagame.

#VictiniB+----->A-

 

[AM]

Yeah in all honesty I think Victini barely just made it to B+, let alone A- last slate with an argument of even dropping it down due to its rock and pursuit weaknesses. What pushed it to B+ in the first place was the band and mixed sets but A- is really just pushing it at this point and trying to force out these capabilities that is way easier said than done. Victini's ability to break all these archtypes necessitates that all the issues it has like SR and being Pursuit weak are removed out of the picture in order to function effectively. Then we get into the argument of "oh well hazard control is easy to come by". Like man, idk about you, but there isn't that many reliable hazard removers in the meta if we're just spit-balling a comparison in regards to the amount of hazard removers and what actually works with well with each other with regards to what appreciates this hazard control and is effective at the same time. Being one of the few good spinners in the tier is one of the traits that is being discussed for Starmie's placement in A+ because realistically you have that, Excadrill, and then a couple of lower ranked stuff to go off of with everything else being Defoggers that are mostly all prone to Defiant Thundurus and Bisharp.

That hazard removal that it needs is a pretty solid amount of support you're asking on for something that is being suggested for A-. Lati /Starmie + Victini adds on the pursuit weakness, Emp + Victini adds on Landorus weakness, Skarm + Victini adds on Keldeo weakness and these are just common occurrences or top tier aspects seen on like every team in some form or another. You could use the argument that Volcarona sort of adds on these same elements for a variety of these and needs the hazard removal even more making them equal but the difference that makes me feel like Volcarona is more viable is that its set up move is waaaay more easy to pull off and tears through way more meta-game trends in just one turn. A lot of Victini's success is, match up based is the word? Like it really doesn't just spam these moves as easily as people try to assume lol cause a lot of times it's popping off a V-Create making it easier to handle next turn due to speed drop (this kills a lot of momentum by the way, it's a double edged sword), trying to play around some prediction games on its choice sets which sort of kill the whole murdering all playstyles argument since it can't do so in one go like certain set up sweepers, and overall sort of has the issue with a lot of wall-breakers that they fall under this speed tier of being forced out by a bunch of dangerous stuff on offense and balance like Landorus and Keldeo.

Post is sort of all over the place but eh I think it's perfectly fine in B+ and A- is pushing it too far and has that case of hype that happens when a craze of something happens and people just assume it should go higher due to that craze, which Victini sort of has right now.

 

[SINCEER]

Yeah in all honesty I think Victini barely just made it to B+, let alone A- last slate with an argument of even dropping it down due to its rock and pursuit weaknesses. What pushed it to B+ in the first place was the band and mixed sets but A- is really just pushing it at this point and trying to force out these capabilities that is way easier said than done. Victini's ability to break all these archtypes necessitates that all the issues it has like SR and being Pursuit weak are removed out of the picture in order to function effectively. Then we get into the argument of "oh well hazard control is easy to come by". Like man, idk about you, but there isn't that many reliable hazard removers in the meta if we're just spit-balling a comparison in regards to the amount of hazard removers and what actually works with well with each other with regards to what appreciates this hazard control and is effective at the same time. Being one of the few good spinners in the tier is one of the traits that is being discussed for Starmie's placement in A+ because realistically you have that, Excadrill, and then a couple of lower ranked stuff to go off of with everything else being Defoggers that are mostly all prone to Defiant Thundurus and Bisharp.

That hazard removal that it needs is a pretty solid amount of support you're asking on for something that is being suggested for A-. Lati /Starmie + Victini adds on the pursuit weakness, Emp + Victini adds on Landorus weakness, Skarm + Victini adds on Keldeo weakness and these are just common occurrences or top tier aspects seen on like every team in some form or another. You could use the argument that Volcarona sort of adds on these same elements for a variety of these and needs the hazard removal even more making them equal but the difference that makes me feel like Volcarona is more viable is that its set up move is waaaay more easy to pull off and tears through way more meta-game trends in just one turn. A lot of Victini's success is, match up based is the word? Like it really doesn't just spam these moves as easily as people try to assume lol cause a lot of times it's popping off a V-Create making it easier to handle next turn due to speed drop (this kills a lot of momentum by the way, it's a double edged sword), trying to play around some prediction games on its choice sets which sort of kill the whole murdering all playstyles argument since it can't do so in one go like certain set up sweepers, and overall sort of has the issue with a lot of wall-breakers that they fall under this speed tier of being forced out by a bunch of dangerous stuff on offense and balance like Landorus and Keldeo.

Post is sort of all over the place but eh I think it's perfectly fine in B+ and A- is pushing it too far and has that case of hype that happens when a craze of something happens and people just assume it should go higher due to that craze, which Victini sort of has right now.

You always find away to shoot down my argument, but you do it in a way I can't resist but agreeing with lmfao. I was seeing its pursuit weakness and rock weakness as a very small piece to the big picture and made everything sound so simple, but you made it clear. Thankyou and fuck you for opening my eyes :]]]]]]]]]]

 

[Darth Darkrai]

Alright, I've reconsidered my position on Mega Medicham. After playing around with it today, I've done surprisingly well with it on mid-ladder, especially considering that the team I'm using it on was thrown together pretty quickly and without a huge amount of thought put into it, and that I'm not a terrific player. It's a very powerful wallbreaker, and I've been finding that it can also do well vs. certain BO teams, though even with double priority, it struggles a fair amount against a lot of offensive teams. I'm definitely not advocating a high rank for it, because it still has a lot of problems, but from what I've seen today, I think it's definitely worthy of a B- ranking.

 

[Immortal]

I love starmie but i really don't think it is quite good enough for A+. Sure is has two good abilities, a great speed tier, a nice movepool and handles keldeo pretty well but i think it is better on paper than in practice where i feel it is pretty underwhelming. Obviously rapid spin is great because it doesn't wipe your hazards away and its defensive sets make for pretty reliable hazard removers but not as reliable as some defoggers. Even with investment they aren't especially bulky and their offensive output is pretty limited. The offensive analytic set still doesn't hit particularly hard and has almost no bulk to speak of. It is nice to have a fast spinner but starmie's psychic typing really is a pain to deal with as well. Starmie has a couple of solid sets to choose from but neither blow me away, when i use starmie it always seems to come up just short of what i wanted it to do. It seems to have been on a glass escalator ever since aegislash got banned but I really don't think it is good enough for A+, it does some cool things but isn't at an A+ level of dominance. A is still a very good ranking and fits starmie much better.

 

[Analytic]

C to B-

M-Medicham was an absolute monster in XY.With ORAS,came new threats.M-Metagross,M-Diancie and M-Altaria proved enough to see this mon go sliding down the usage stats.It is still an excellent wallbreaker though,breaks Physically Defensive mons in OU like Rotom-W,Ferrothorn,Hippowdon,Quagsire,Suicune and Landorus-T rather easily.

I nominate it for B- because I think C is too low for an excellent wallbreaker like MegaCham.It performs quite well against stall and Balance but is susceptible to being revenged killed quite easily by the likes of Talonflame,M-Diancie,M-Altaria,Latios,Keldeo and Raikou,mons that are quite prevelant in the OU Meta.
However,it reaches an unbelievably high Attack stat of 604 if i'm not wrong with Pure Power and possesses great Dual STABs in Zen Headbutt and High Jump Kick along with priority in Fake Out and Bullet Punch and coverage moves in Ice Punch and ThunderPunch.

I think it's definitely worthy of a B Rank to say the least but I won't push it any further because of the current trends in the meta right now.

Here are some calcs:

Hide

240+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W: 271-321 (89.4 - 105.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

240+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 252-297 (62.3 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

-1 240+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-T: 304-360 (79.5 - 94.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

240+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 208-246 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

240+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 307-363 (77.9 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

240+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

 

[DarkNostalgia]

rofl Alakazam needs to rise, like fast. C+? Im talking B- lol. LO Zam is a great stallbreaker, late-game sweeper. Played with it a few times and it's been great so far, just needs a bit of prior damage to KO loads of stuff. Great speed tier: 120, so it can revenge kill stuff like Starmie, Latios, Gengar, Keldeo, Mega gross. 135 spa is skyhigh as well, and not to mention the whole load of utility and support moves in its arsenal, gems like encore, taunt, sub. it breaks stall real nice, screwing over stuff like clef and chansey with encore (also mfw u encore bisharp into sucker punch) Psychic+Fighting+Ghost is really good coverage, hitting everything for neutral damage (i think?) and its hard to find switch-ins to this thing bar mandibuzz (uncommon), mega sableye (opp cost, usage decreasing), av torn-t etc. I mean frailness isnt a problem when it grabs a kill whenever it switches in, and its not like its going to stay in on a scizor anyway ;_;

 

[BlazeLatias]

Right so i got two mons who i think are in need of a rise

Tyrantrum c+ to b-

Simply put this things a monster thanks too its ha rock head. I mean Thanks his ability he can fire off rock stab even stronger then stab stone edge and its pretty much a nuke with low opportunity cost becuase you dont take recoil but got to live with the chance of a miss which is not even close to being bad. Not to mention trums got fantastic coverage overall and its band set is really scary vs slower teams/stall teams. The fact that it pretty much picks the coverage it wants depending on what it wants to beat is really good. Iron head if you wanna kill fairies (redundant as head smash hits harder) and zen headbutt if you wanna hit keldeo. Hes got some pretty good physical bulk as well allowing him to take a hit or two. Bit unfortunate typing as hes weak too all priority moves but as i mentioned he can take a hit or two. (can live a bp from mega scizor) Overall great pokemon im surprised hes not already b- or b rank already.

Starmie to A+

On request of a fren im also nominating starmie too move up to A+. Both starmies offensive and defensive rolls are pretty fantastic right now because offensive lo starmie is pretty scary with a fantastic speed tier and the coveted bolt-Beam with a powerful water stab combined with anylitic(sorry dont remember how to spell it lol) is deadly enough said. Its defensive set is pretty fantastic as well being able to check keldeo lacking hp bug or hp electric and beats sub+cm deo which is a scary as hell. As a plus defensive starm checks Common mega meta+deo cores. Reflect type is another amazing tool on the defensive set as it prevents starm from being pursuit trapped by bisharp and tyranitar and allows starmie to beat them 1v1 (bisharp more then tar as stone edge hits rather hard) on top of that Reflect Type allows starm too scald ferrothorns to death which is always fun. Only real reason starm wont go to A+ is becuase of the problem of either poor bulk or being rather passive. Despite that Starms without a doubt the most reliable spinner in the ou tier as it pretty much always gets the job done.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Well after a long time of following the OU metagame and playing on Showdown, I believe I am finally educated enough for my opinions to hold some weight. This said I will give my 2 cents on the current ranking nominations.

Empoleon: B->B
Disagree. Empoleon is a good defogger with a great typing, but its lack of reliable recovery outside of Leftovers is a struggle for the poor penguin. It has great utility with its Scald, which scares some mons on the switch on, but a slower dry pass/volt turn user can get any Pokemon in safely against it. Pokemon that do not fear its typing or burns (such as Megazard X) have an invitation to set up. All in all it does not really stand up to the B rank threats, while falling in nicely with the B- ranks.

Skarmory: B+>A-
Agree. Unlike most people, I will not proclaim the Custap set as two free hazards, which is simply not true. Instead I will point to its SpD set, which completely walls Landorus bar Focus Blast, which is bound to miss at some point and give Skarmory a chance to get ahead. Its ability to put up and remove hazards is very beneficial for many teams, and its ability to take any non multi-hit move with Sturdy and proceed to Whirlwind out a sweeper is a great advantage. Granted it would be one of the worse A- Pokemon, but it doesn't matter since it outclasses most of the B+ ranks.

Mega Medicham: C+>B-
Agree. When it comes to wall breakers Megamedi can break down so many different Pokemon. It crushes many Pokemon that can try to switch into it with a large array of coverage, and though it struggles with Offense due to its low speed tier it can still chunk other mons with dual priority sets.
It may take up the Mega slot and not give the greatest rewards, but it completely outclasses everything in the C+ tier.

Starmie: A>A+
Disagree. Starmie is a great spinner than can hit trade ins hard with Analytic. However unless it is running the defensive Reflect Type set it dies to Pursuit. Once its set is discovered it can be played around effectively, not fearing the defensive set and pressuring it accordingly, or playing around the squishy offense set and looking for opportunities to strike. Mega Sableye spin blocks it and can set up on any non LO set, Reflect Type or not.
Starmie has its strengths, but it is not worthy of A+ in my eyes.

Tyrantrum: C+>B-
Neutral. While its CB set can tear apart almost all non-resistant mons, I still have not seen enough of it to make a legitimate input on its increase in ranking.

Alakazam: C>C+
Neutral. I am aware that LO Alakazam has a great speed tier and coverage, but it is extremely fragile and dies to Pursuit. I will not deny it yet, however, since I have not seen enough of Alakazam to pass judgement on it.

 

[DarkNostalgia]

I hate to be that guy, but dying to Pursuit is not a factor that stops a Pokemon from being viable. Look at Latios and Gengar.

 

[Heroes and Cons]

Starmie to A+ is debatable for me. On the one hand, its exceptional movepool and speed tier, along with Natural Cure and access to Rapid Spin, make it an excellent offensive spinner and can be hard to switch into without a dedicated special wall or bulky spinblocker. On the other hand, there are many fairly reliable checks to it, to the extent that quite a few Pokemon in LOWER ranks can beat it, and the fact that so many common pokemon can easily switch into most of its attacks (specially bulky Celebi, Ferrothorn, Latias, AV Tyranitar, etc), tank even a supereffective hit with ease, and OHKO it in return stops it from being a Pokemon you can brainlessly use like most A+ Pokemon. Its speed tier is also not an good as previous generations; with so many extremely fast Megas running around that completely outstrip it, and others (such as Mega Zard X and Mega Sableye) that simply use it as setup bait, using Starmie can even be a liability occasionally. It requires a bit more support - such as entry hazards and removal of special walls - to be effective than I could justify letting it rise up to A+. Keep it A Rank.

(Here's hoping we can talk about this guy soon and get him up to A- at least.)

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I hate to be that guy, but dying to Pursuit is not a factor that stops a Pokemon from being viable. Look at Latios and Gengar.

Completely true. I don't know if it is worth the team support to cover this weakness, though, in the case of Starmie, since Starmie will usually be trying to support the team, not receive the support. Also, Gengar and Latios have ways to deal with the Pursuit users (mainly TTar and Bisharp) with Focus Blast and Earthquake, respectively.

 

[pika pal]

I hate to be that guy, but dying to Pursuit is not a factor that stops a Pokemon from being viable. Look at Latios and Gengar.

Pursuit alone does not keep a mon from being viable, but it is still a factor that should be accounted for in evaluating a Pokemon, the same way hazard weakness is not completely breaking, but still a flaw (I remember a point in very early XY where both Zards were in S-Rank).

Gengar and Latios are inhibited by their Pursuit weakness, but they have plenty of factors to ensure that's not an issue or to compensate: Gengar's coverage makes it difficult to get a Pursuit trapper in unscathed, and his speed combines with that to force mindgames against them, since they risk eating a Focus Blast if Gengar doesn't switch out. Latios, on the other hand, puts immense pressure on a lot of other mons, as well as offering hazard removal. Pursuit support also isn't too much to ask for that role, since Latios pair pretty well naturally with Steel or Fairy types that can beat Bisharp and Tyranitar, the two most common Pursuit users and can lead to double switches.

Alakazam can work under a similar premise to Gengar with deterring attacks, but while both are frail, Gengar's typing gives him immunities/4x resists to create switch in opportunities, while Alakazam is always getting hit on entry save for revenge kills, which are reasonably easy to double switch with to a Pursuit trapper, some other bulky answer (or both such as Scizor). I see the merit of regular Alakazam, but while he does seem good at what he does, he's kind of one note without the kind of absurd power things like Zard-Y or Tyrantrum bring to make that one note all it needs in OU.

 

[Cloud_Nine987]

I support Tyrantrum going to B-. I admittedly haven't used it too much on the ladder, but from the couple of matches I've played he's pretty good. With good attack (that can be boosted by a boosting item, unlike certain megas) backed up by good defense and decent speed. Not to mention its movepool has all of the tools it needs to succeed, including Earthquake, all of the elemental fangs, Head Smash (best move), and even Rock Polish which may be underrated on Tyrantrum (has anyone tried an RP set on him?).

 

[Analytic]

Alright,here are some things I'd like to point out.

Why does Skarmory need to move up to A- just because it's "guaranteed" to set up two hazards? I get it,it's a nice addition but in a metagame where mons like M-Diancie,M-Sabeleye are present as well as mons like LeadThundy w/Taunt and Lead Azelf,I don't see why the Custap Berry set is a good enough reason for it to move up to A-.It outspeeds most non dedicated leads anyway,Ferro,Rotom-W,Landorus-I/T are just a few that come to mind.It will manage to get up hazards regardless,don't see how the extra hazard warrants a move up to A-

Well after a long time of following the OU metagame and playing on Showdown, I believe I am finally educated enough for my opinions to hold some weight. This said I will give my 2 cents on the current ranking nominations.

Empoleon: B->B
Disagree. Empoleon is a good defogger with a great typing, but its lack of reliable recovery outside of Leftovers is a struggle for the poor penguin. It has great utility with its Scald, which scares some mons on the switch on, but a slower dry pass/volt turn user can get any Pokemon in safely against it. Pokemon that do not fear its typing or burns (such as Megazard X) have an invitation to set up. All in all it does not really stand up to the B rank threats, while falling in nicely with the B- ranks.

Skarmory: B+>A-
Agree. Unlike most people, I will not proclaim the Custap set as two free hazards, which is simply not true. Instead I will point to its SpD set, which completely walls Landorus bar Focus Blast, which is bound to miss at some point and give Skarmory a chance to get ahead. Its ability to put up and remove hazards is very beneficial for many teams, and its ability to take any non multi-hit move with Sturdy and proceed to Whirlwind out a sweeper is a great advantage. Granted it would be one of the worse A- Pokemon, but it doesn't matter since it outclasses most of the B+ ranks.

Mega Medicham: C+>B-
Agree. When it comes to wall breakers Megamedi can break down so many different Pokemon. It crushes many Pokemon that can try to switch into it with a large array of coverage, and though it struggles with Offense due to its low speed tier it can still chunk other mons with dual priority sets.
It may take up the Mega slot and not give the greatest rewards, but it completely outclasses everything in the C+ tier.

Starmie: A>A+
Disagree. Starmie is a great spinner than can hit trade ins hard with Analytic. However unless it is running the defensive Reflect Type set it dies to Pursuit. Once its set is discovered it can be played around effectively, not fearing the defensive set and pressuring it accordingly, or playing around the squishy offense set and looking for opportunities to strike. Mega Sableye spin blocks it and can set up on any non LO set, Reflect Type or not.
Starmie has its strengths, but it is not worthy of A+ in my eyes.

Tyrantrum: C+>B-
Neutral. While its CB set can tear apart almost all non-resistant mons, I still have not seen enough of it to make a legitimate input on its increase in ranking.

Alakazam: C>C+
Neutral. I am aware that LO Alakazam has a great speed tier and coverage, but it is extremely fragile and dies to Pursuit. I will not deny it yet, however, since I have not seen enough of Alakazam to pass judgement on it.

For starters,any variant of Starmie shouldn't be staying in on a M-Sabeleye,it's spin blocked any Ghost type so I don't know you mentioned that.It's a Normal move so it'll obviously not spin against ghost types lol.

Yes,Starmie and Alakazam die to a Pursuit but that doesn't mean that they don't deserve to get their ranks changed.They aren't good enough reasons for a Pokemon's viability to change :]

 

[Darth Darkrai]

Alright,here are some things I'd like to point out.

Why does Skarmory need to move up to A- just because it's "guaranteed" to set up two hazards? I get it,it's a nice addition but in a metagame where mons like M-Diancie,M-Sabeleye are present as well as mons like LeadThundy w/Taunt and Lead Azelf,I don't see why the Custap Berry set is a good enough reason for it to move up to A-.It outspeeds most non dedicated leads anyway,Ferro,Rotom-W,Landorus-I/T are just a few that come to mind.It will manage to get up hazards regardless,don't see how the extra hazard warrants a move up to A-

First, I wouldn't say it should move up JUST because of its Custap set. The Custap set is one I've been using a lot recently, and it's one that I really like, but if that were the ONLY good set for it, it would probably actually be LOWER than B+ right now. The Custap set is great, but it really only works well on HO, and certain BO, teams. The reason it should move up is because it also has the excellent Specially Defensive set, which gives it uses on Balanced and Stall teams as well. With the release of Custap, it now has sets that give it usefulness on a much wider variety of teams than it did previously. That's the real reason Skarm should be moving up.

Also, the Custap really isn't to outspeed whatever your opponent has out first (unless they're smart enough to send out a counter for Skarm first), it's to outspeed whatever they switch in to take Skarm out.

 

[Analytic]

First, I wouldn't say it should move up JUST because of its Custap set. The Custap set is one I've been using a lot recently, and it's one that I really like, but if that were the ONLY good set for it, it would probably actually be LOWER than B+ right now. The Custap set is great, but it really only works well on HO, and certain BO, teams. The reason it should move up is because it also has the excellent Specially Defensive set, which gives it uses on Balanced and Stall teams as well. With the release of Custap, it now has sets that give it usefulness on a much wider variety of teams than it did previously. That's the real reason Skarm should be moving up.

Also, the Custap really isn't to outspeed whatever your opponent has out first (unless they're smart enough to send out a counter for Skarm first), it's to outspeed whatever they switch in to take Skarm out.

How does it matter?The idea is to get up hazards right?You'll get up more than one hazard regardless.The SpD Set is what sounds nice now,with Landorus-I and Gengar troubling the likes of Balanced Teams,it seems interesting as to where it will lie on the viability rankings.

 

[Darth Darkrai]

How does it matter?The idea is to get up hazards right?You'll get up more than one hazard regardless.The SpD Set is what sounds nice now,with Landorus-I and Gengar troubling the likes of Balanced Teams,it seems interesting as to where it will lie on the viability rankings.

No, the idea is to get as many hazards up as possible. The more the better.

 

[Yugi]

I think Mandi Down.As im seeing right now,for me its rarely on teams and also it can provide just as a defogger.Taunt can seriously wear it down,and its at the most common staller in the game,that being sableye.It also likes running foul play and again with the low attack of sableye againts sab it doesnt have the greatest matchups.Also there are other more popular defoggers that can set rocks and one of them being the popular Skarmory.It doesnt guarantee you the defog againts a special attacker like a gengar who carries t-bolt and such.Also the weakness to rocks makes it a little bit more vulnerable with Physical attacks allthough having alot of Physical defense.It doesnt have many options againts steel types,unless running bone rush,which is uncommon for it to run in my opinion.It should go to C+ or C just because there are many better options.Also Skarmory Outclasses Mandibuzz in every possible way so another reason of it getting down in ranking.

 

[heritage]

I don't really have a say on where Mandi goes but there are a few things in that paragraph that really bothered me.

Also Skarmory Outclasses Mandibuzz in every possible way so another reason of it getting down in ranking.

This isn't even close to being true. Mandibuzz has a nice Dark resist that allows it to switch into Knock Off a lot easier, it has Foul Play, which Skarmory doesn't have, a much better HP stat, and it actually has a Special Defense stat, unlike Skarmory's mediocre one.

It doesnt have many options againts steel types,unless running bone rush,which is uncommon for it to run in my opinion.

Lol Bone Rush
0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Excadrill: 262-310 (72.5 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Mega Metagross: 264-312 (87.7 - 103.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Bisharp: 83-98 (30.5 - 36%) -- 46.4% chance to 3HKO
Bisharp can't beat it 1vs1 anyways.

It doesnt guarantee you the defog againts a special attacker like a gengar who carries t-bolt and such.

Gengar very rarely carries T-Bolt, it really has better things to do with its moves. Not to mention...

0 Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 198-234 (76.4 - 90.3%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 108 SpD Mandibuzz: 239-283 (56.5 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Again, no real opinion on where Mandibuzz goes, but I think it has certain niches that nothing else really does, and C is defiantly underselling it way too much.

 

[MegaStarUniverse]

Victini to A-. This pokemon is underrated. It destroys stall teams. Pressures every playstyle with its choice band set and can counter and check Clefable which is nice. I can say that its choice banded set has no switch ins. I heard a couple times that Heatran is counter but thats only if it goes V-create. Bolt Strike has a chance to 2 Hit Ko it. 252+ Atk Choice Band Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 185-218 (47.9 - 56.4%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. True you have to predict Heatran to come in but its definitely not a "Counter". its special lure set is cool too. U-turn can give momentum as well.

Lucario to B+. Lucario at +2 can beat Balance and Hyper Offense teams so well that its not even funny. Sure it can't setup on much... only ferro and celebi come to mind and if one of them has T-wave it just stops the sweep most of the time or you have to predict the switch out and SD up but it can be a very good win condition.

Staraptor to B-. Staraptor definitely does not deserve C+. Its choice scarf set functions good with nice Coverage, Speed, and Power. It can form a good volt-turn core also. U-turn is .Its Choice Band set hits like a truck and can not be countered.