Omastar (QC 1/3)

[shrang]

Lord Helix

[Overview]
- Cool mon
- Definitely lost its luster since its heyday in BW2 where it killed everything
- Still has some utility in the tier: Rock-typing and good Defense to check birds, access to Toxic Spikes and enough firepower to muscle past Magic Bouncers.
- Has lots of problems now, but is still quite usable.


Lord Helix
########
name: Shell Smash
move 1: Shell Smash
move 2: Toxic Spikes
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Hydro Pump / Earth Power
ability: Shell Armor
item: Shuca Berry
evs: 112 Def / 188 SpA / 208 Spe
nature: Modest

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========
- Shell Smash gives Omastar the ability to beat any Magic Bouncer in the game, including Mega Sableye, also lets you go on a sweep late game if its checks are neutered.
- Toxic Spikes lets you pressure the Mega Sab + Defog Waterceus cores by poisoning the Waterceus while simultaneously handling Mega Sab.
- Hydro Pump is preferred for Water STAB as it kills Mega Sableye and can OHKO other Supportceuses like Rock and Ground (and also checks Ho-oh much better). Scald can be used in its place just because its Scald and this Omastar is defensive anyway.
- Finally Ice Beam is used so you can check Mega Mence and Ray.


Set Details
========
- This set does a number of things, although never expect Omastar to do all of them at once: Defensive check to birds, and with Toxic Spikes and Shell Smash it can pressure Mega Sab + Waterceus cores
- 208 Speed allows Omastar to outrun and murder Mewtwo / Shaymin-S / Darkrai after a Smash. 112 Def lets you beat Excadrill at full health and survive an Adamant Precipice Blades from P Don. Rest go in SpA
- Shuca Berry lets you check Mega Mence.
- Shell Armor is probably the best ability to use on this Omastar, since preventing crits is nice for a defensive mon. Swift Swim can get you a layer on P Ogre if need be but is in general useless, while Weak Armor is better suited to offensive sets.


Usage Tips
========
- Never make the mistake of using this as a sweeper - it's not. Shell Smash is only there to do very certain things.
- Early-mid game: Aim to get TSpikes up so you can fuck with opposing P Donners, Arcs and GeoXerns and stuff. Use Shell Smash only if you're facing Mega Sab.
- Use to check Ho-oh/Mence/Ray whenever you need to.

Team Options
========
- Omastar is pretty self-sufficient, really, since pretty much everything appreciates Toxic Spikes.
- Giratina-O is good as it can switch into P Donner that would inevitably switch into Omastar, as well as blocking the rare Rapid Spin
- Mega Salamence and Lati@s all synergise well with Omastar as they resist its weaknesses
- A Primal Donner of your own is good for handling pretty much everything - especially good if you use Swords Dance to pressure the crap out of Waterceus
- Lati@s is good for switching into P Ogre that walls Omastar
- Pursuit support is good to get rid of Lati@s which 1) wall Omastar and 2) can Defog. Tyranitar is great as it gives Omastar an SpD boost. Mega Scizor and Aegislash can also use Pursuit against Lati@s.
- The rare Poisonceus can absorb your Toxic Spikes - use Kyurem-W to check it - P Donner wrecks Poisonceus
- Mega Gengar is good for taking out Defog Waterceus
- Dual Screens is good to help Omastar set up - Deo-S is a good screen user, as well Lati@s and (God forbid) Klefki
- Wobbuffet support is very helpful!
- Pursuit is useful if you're using Focus Sash, as you can't break Latias with +2 Ice Beam without using LO - use Ttar/Scizor/Aegislash
- Blissey walls you as well. Take advantage of the blob by using something like Klefki, Ferrothorn or Deo-S to spam the opposing field with Spikes.


Other Options
########
- Spikes is usable, but Toxic Spikes is more efficient with the defensive Omastar set due to its ability to pressure Defog Arcs
- Ditto to Stealth Rock
- Full offensive set is good too, but TSpikes are so much more useful :O
- Can use Knock Off to troll things, but you can't really fit it into teams


Checks & Counters
########
- Bulky Waters - P Ogre, Waterceus, Palkia
- P Donner for the defensive set
- Blissey / SpD Clefable
- Latias
- Not giving the offensive set chances to set up would be good
- Scarf Zekrom (with Jolly) still outspeeds +2 Omastar and OHKOs with Bolt Strike
- +ve Spe Deo-A can still outspeed Omastar at +2

 

[Hack]

rejected 1/3

You have to do better to sell in a mon's viability than just posting a skeleton where it's assumed the mon in question is viable. I'm not gonna see what this does, ever, so I'm just outright rejecting this anyway but gl.

 

[shrang]

What else would you like to know? I'm not certainly not going to hype the Pokemon, because frankly, it doesn't deserve that much hype. I've clearly stated what its niche is. The least thing you can do is give it a proper look instead of dismissing it on assumptions.

 

[dice]

hmm so i guess it's kinda like cloyster that can't spin except it can be a poor man's ho-oh switch?

i'm not 100% sold it's viable but idk if it's unviable. Sweep Fireburn Nayrz input plz

 

[Sweep]

I don't know, Omastar is a weird Pokemon in ORAS.

I'd probably use an offensive set with Shuca Berry if I ever used this in a serious match; this set does a better job at pressuring Defog Arceus / Mega Sableye with Hydro Pump and can dent Lati@s with Ice Beam and smack Primal Groudon and Steels like Aegislash with Earth Power. You lose the security of Focus Sash, but offense isn't always gonna fit a hazard remover anyway and if you're brave enough to use Omastar in the first place, you probably are not one for security. I used Earth Power / Toxic Spikes / Ice Beam / Shell Smash on the ladder with a Substitute Geomancy Xerneas (to abuse Toxic Spikes and take advantage of Omastar's ability to lure and damage Primal Groudon and certain Steels / check Ho-Oh). The two syngerize surprisingly well on paper! And yes, the combo did work out well and won games when I used them, but I only used it on the ladder...it beat several high ranked players but I can't say in good faith that any of those players were actually "good." I can provide replays if needed.

The set I had in mind for the analysis is this:

Omastar @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 112 Def / 188 SpA / 208 Spe
Modest Nature
- Shell Smash
- Toxic Spikes
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump / Earth Power

208 Speed allows Omastar to outrun and murder Mewtwo / Shaymin-S / Darkrai after a Smash. The given Defense EV's allow Omastar to beat LO Excadrill 1-1 at full health (assuming it has Hydro Pump, Earth Power does 91% max but at worst in a 1-1 situation you'll trade with it) and live a 252+ Precipice Blades from Groudon after Stealth Rock. Naturally, the physical bulk is easily enough to check Ho-Oh and Salamence as well. Omastar lives a Judgment from Ground Arceus after SR with no HP investment, so I find HP investment wasteful.

I used Earth Power on my team but Hydro Pump is better vs. Sableye and vs neutral Arceus formes like Ghostceus and Darkceus. It also allows Omastar to do something back to Ho-Oh should a Life Orb variant stay in and Earthquake. Omastar wishes it could use all three moves AND TSpikes, but it can axe Earth Power if you don't want to use it with Xerneas. Max Speed is viable to outrun Mega Mewtwo Y The Special Attack investment easily OHKOes bulky Mega Salamence and ironically allows it to check most Rayquaza, particularly Scarf and Berry resist variants. Omastar also usually OHKOes standard Geomancy Xerneas after SR after a Smash, and Hydro Pump pressures Arceus formes immensely.

Defog Arceus-Water is a dead stop to this set. Latias / Latios are too, but are pretty easy to Pursuit trap with an Aegislash or something and they will be worried about Ice Beam anyway, so I don't feel they're as problematic. If you use Omastar, make sure the rest of your team can easily pressure Waterceus.

A lot of Pokemon check Omastar, but most of the Defog / Magic Bounce users don't have the tools to stop Omastar from setting up a layer, and the added utility of checking Salamence, Ho-Oh, and weakening Primal Groudon can be neat for its teammates. It's not a /terrible/ Pokemon, it's just gimmicky. I'd compress the two sets because I don't think a bulky spread is worth it; Omastar isn't gonna live all that long no matter how much bulk you put into it, so you mine as well abuse that surprisingly decent 115 Special Attack (boosted further by a Modest nature) and a movepool that works out quite well in ORAS.

Undecided on approving this right now, this is pretty close for me. Also please change the names of the sets, they trigger me :(

Playtested with this more under "Friend of Ryan," it does pretty well vs. really offensive teams because it can find a turn to set TSpikes, but can instead check Mence or Ray if you need it to (cannot do both in one match unless your opponent gives it free turns). It's very mediocre, but I'll approve it.

QC 1/3

 

[steelskitty]

qc rejected 2/3

this is a slow pokemon that really checks nothing well and needs to use a boosting move to pose any sort of a threat to the opponent. I know you aren't calling it a great Rayquaza/Ho-Oh/Mence check because it really isn't. In Ray's case, if all they do is SD on your switch-in then EQ will KO the Omastar (+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 112 Def Shuca Berry Omastar: 260-307 (92.5 - 109.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock; the uncommon Outrage also puts Omastar down). In Ho-Oh's case, CB Brave Bird 2HKOs you with Rocks up (252+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 112 Def Omastar: 121-143 (43 - 50.8%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock; 176 Atk+ Band still has like a 70% shot of doing this). And with any of these mons, all it takes is an EQ on an obvious switch-in and your Omastar isn't a "check" anymore.

Toxic Spikes is a cool niche in Ubers but Omastar does not use the move well because it's not all that stellar vs Latis and any support Arceus with a STAB. I don't even think it's viable on this set.

The fact that it has to choose between Hydro Pump and Earth Power (being walled by Ho-Oh and lacking STAB or being walled by Primal Groudon and even Shuca-less Dialga) is also really awkward. Removing Toxic Spikes from the set would remedy this, I guess, but then it makes this mollusk have even less of a niche.

I don't really see this doing anything in real games, sorry.

FireEDIT - Steel keeps forgetting he was fired but I agree with this post so the rejection will hold

 

[Nayrz]

Yeah i looked into this mon with other qc on irc... i can't figure out a legit reason to use it on a serious team. its not a bird check (omastar doesnt seem to set rocks so it doesnt actually stop the birds doing what they want) and each of the flying attackers in the tier will 2hko after rocks with their stab. It can 1v1 pdon if you wanna throw away a flying resist. It sets tspikes...but cannot stop them being removed instantly (defog latias does not care about omastar, boosted or not), it also can't break primal kyogre unless the kyogre has no brain cells and lets omastar get 2 boosted hydro pumps on it. others have noted its downsides and i agree with them so im not gonna repeat the points. its one of those mons that would troll the ladder and thats cool to use on a fun team... however every mon that passes for an analysis has to be given a serious place on the viability rankings and i dont believe omastar is viable enough to be represented to the userbase as a mon worthy of a teamslot on a serious team.

qc rejected 3/3