Metagame np: SV DOU Stage 3: Hands To Myself | Iron Hands Remains DOU

Status
Not open for further replies.

Noelle

Trying my best
is a Community Contributor
The History of Substitute in Doubles OU

I've wanted to make this post for a while, but didn't know where to put it, so I'm just gonna put it here. The idea for this originally came from DaAwesomeDude1 asking someone to make a post about Substitute in BW DOU, but I decided to take it a step further and talk about Substitute in every generation (other than DPP because I haven't played enough of it). This is also heavily inspired by BKC's videos because I've been watching them a ton as background noise at school.

What is Substitute?

Substitute allows the user to create a Substitute that possesses 25% of the HP of the user. This Substitute must be broken before you can deal damage to the Pokémon that used it. Substitute has the additional benefit of blocking Toxic, Will-O-Wisp, Thunder Wave, Intimidate, and flinches from Fake Out. Taking away 25% of your health to make a Pokémon harder to remove may seem counterintuitive, but it actually makes quite a bit of sense. Substitute can be used to be able to effectively take less damage from attacks that would otherwise significantly chunk or OHKO the Pokémon using it, and avoiding Toxic or Intimidate is valuable enough on its own to be worth the 25% of your HP in some cases.

This can become especially oppressive in combination with Leftovers and/or Grassy Terrain. Leftovers and Grassy Terrain make the user unreasonably difficult to remove, as every turn the Substitute is not broken is effectively free healing. Even when the Substitute is broken immediately, you're only technically losing 18% of your HP rather than 25%. Protect further prolongs the turns it takes for your opponent to break the Substitute, and you only lose 12% of your HP instead of 25% if you Protect once after successfully getting a Substitute up.

While Substitute can be bypassed by sound-based attacks, this is not particularly relevant in most metagames. Rather, the main drawback of using Substitute is the fact that you are limited by your moveslots. Almost every relevant Substitute Pokémon also wants Protect, which only leaves you with two moveslots for attacks and/or setup moves. If you choose to run a setup move alongside Substitute like many Pokémon commonly do, you now only have one moveslot to use for an attack. This means that Substitute, while powerful in some cases, requires the user to have one or two attacks capable of hitting a significant portion of the metagame in which they reside (think common offensive pairings like Bolt + Beam coverage).

Substitute has two general use cases. The first of which being a Pokémon with good coverage and high enough damage output to OHKO a lot of the metagame. This forces the Pokémon weak to it to switch, which can be capitalized on by using Substitute to become even more difficult to remove. The second is setup sweepers that are ruined by Toxic or Intimidate, and can use Substitute to get around this. These Pokémon generally have a spammable STAB attack that's difficult to switch into, like Scald or Thousand Arrows. There are some edge cases that don't fit either of these archetypes (Like Prankster Substitute Thundurus), but these are generally rarely used (if at all) and are usually not very good. With the mechanics and use cases of Substitute out of the way, lets get into the users of it across the generations.

BW DOU

:kyurem black:
Kyurem-Black is incredibly naturally bulky and has great coverage with Ice Beam and Earth Power. This allows it to force out many of the metagame's most common threats, such as Landorus-Therian, Thundurus, Heatran, and so on. Even Pokémon not necessarily weak to Ice and Ground coverage may still run from Choice Band Outrage if Kyurem-Black's set has not been revealed. The many switches Kyurem-Black forces by virtue of its amazing coverage and ability to bluff a Choice Band set allow it to easily get Substitutes up and make itself much more threatening. This makes Kyurem-Black one of the most frustrating Pokémon to play against for inexperienced BW DOU players. Kyurem-Black getting a Substitute up can be devastating and lead to losses outright, but attacking into Kyurem-Black to deny Substitute is also incredibly risky in some board states, as the Kyurem-Black could just as easily attack rather than Substitute or actually be Choice Band Outrage. Kyurem-Black can also very easily fit Leftovers, which, while it can reveal that you are not a Choice Band set if Stealth Rock or Sand are up, makes Kyurem-Black infinitely more oppressive with a Substitute up. Substitute Kyurem-Black forces the opponent to position well and not allow it to come in and get a Substitute for free, but also requires good positioning itself, as its lackluster defensive typing means its threatened by several common pokemon like Latios, Tyranitar, Hitmontop and so on. Its Stealth Rock weakness also makes it harder to pivot in and out repeatedly. Kyurem-Black, while undeniably one of the best users of Substitute and an incredible Pokémon, requires good positional play to get the most out of it.

:heatran: :metagross:
Heatran functions in a similar way to Substitute Kyurem-Black, but can be pivoted around more easily due to its amazing defensive typing. An immunity to Sandstorm also allows it to get more out of using Leftovers, and its good natural bulk means that many Pokémon can struggle to break Heatran's Substitutes once it gets them up. Heatran's guaranteed Leftovers recovery via an immunity to Sandstorm allows it to alternate between Substitute and Protect until its Substitute survives, at which point it can start chunking its opponent with Heat Wave and Earth Power. Heatran enjoys being paired with redirection and Fake Out which allow it to maintain its Substitutes and allow Heatran to spend more turns attacking and less turns just using Substitute and Protect. Metagross can also use Substitute, but literally everything I just said about Heatran applies to Metagross and there's not much else to say about it.

:suicune:
Suicune is a potent Calm Mind setup sweeper that uses Substitute to avoid Toxic from Pokémon like Jellicent. This does mean that it only has one moveslot left for an attack, but Scald is very spammable due to how crippling burn is. A lot of resists still don't want to switch in on it and risk a burn. This does mean that Suicune has no way of hitting Jellicent, but Jellicent can't really threaten Suicune either, and makes Suicune a great way to exploit Jellicent builds, as you can pretty much completely ignore it and then use your teammates to remove it late game. Leftovers and Protect along with Suicune's high natural bulk further contribute to why Suicune is such a good Substitute user.

:kingdra:
Kingdra can use a Mystic Water Substitute set to punish the many switches it forces with rain boosted Water-type attacks. Substitute has the benefit of making Kingdra less weak to priority, which makes it even more difficult to remove its speed advantage. Blocking Thundurus' Thunder Wave is also huge for rain. Running Substitute instead of Hydro Pump makes it harder to remove bulkier targets that would require a single target Water-type attack, but Substitute is still a fine option.

XY DOU

:kyurem black:
Kyurem-Black is still an amazing Substitute user, but most of what makes it good in BW still applies in XY.

:gengar mega:
Mega Gengar is interesting because its ability Shadow Tag means it can't force switches, as the opponent can't switch. Substitute Gengar can be used to gain an immunity to Thunder Wave and Spore from Thundurus and Amoonguss respectively. Its high speed also allows it to use Substitute in combination with Protect to avoid taking attacks that would otherwise OHKO it. If its Substitute survives, it becomes much more difficult to remove, requiring its opponent to attack it at least twice. While it can't force switches because of Shadow Tag, it can force its opponent to Protect, which can be capitalized on by Substitute in a largely similar way (Though Encore is a better option to exploit Protect in a lot of cases). Substitute does compete with other utility moves like Taunt and Encore for a moveslot, but moves like Disable or Encore can also be used in combination with Substitute, making Mega Gengar a potent disruption tool.

:sylveon:
Sylveon on TVALKS can opt for Substitute instead of Hidden Power Ground to avoid Spore. Thunder Wave and to a lesser extent Toxic. Support from Mega Kangaskhan and Amoonguss also makes it easier to set up and maintain Substitutes. You lose out on the coverage from Hidden Power Ground, but Hyper Voice is already extremely consistent neutral coverage in the tier, and Sylveon behind a Substitute is a threatening enough win condition to be worth dropping coverage for it. (Edit: please don't use HP Ground Calm Mind Sylveon, its very bad)

:aegislash:
Substitute is a rather unique option for Aegislash, as it allows it to attack in Sword Forme more freely due to not having to worry about getting OHKOd. Similarly to Heatran in BW, Aegislash is bulky enough to afford to be able to alternate between Substitute and Protect until one of its Substitutes survives, and once one of them survives it becomes incredibly difficult to remove and can make use of its high damage output in Sword Forme more freely.

SM DOU

:kartana:
Kartana can use Substitute to take advantage of the many switches it forces against common Pokémon like Tapu Fini and Diancie, as well as making itself immune to Incineroar's Intimidate. Being able to stay in on special attackers that would otherwise knock it out and hit them with a powerful Leaf Blade or Sacred Sword from behind a Substitute allows Kartana to vastly increase the amount of Pokémon it’s able to threaten. Tailwind is a more popular option on Kartana to provide speed control to its team, but if the team already has another Tailwind setter Substitute is a strong alternative.

:zygarde:
Dragon Dance Zygarde often runs Substitute to avoid Incineroar’s Intimidate and various Toxic users such as Gothitelle and Amoonguss. Similar to Suicune, Zygarde is limited to one moveslot for an attack if it chooses to use Substitute, but Thousand Arrows is such a spammable attack that Zygarde loses very little by running Substitute as a last move when compared to the huge benefit of ignoring Intimidate. In later gens like SS, Zygarde needs to be paired with pokemon like Genesect or Celesteela that can consistently remove Grass-types so that Zygarde doesn’t find itself walled by the extremely common Rillaboom, but in SM this is hardly relevant due to the lack of viable Grass-types that actually resist Ground outside of niche options like Tapu Bulu. Zygarde is harder to fit on teams due to facing competition with Landorus-T for a Ground-type slot, but Zygarde is still a potent threat in its own right, and generally fits on much different teams than Landorus-T, making this much less of an issue in practice.


SS DOU

:landorus:
Landorus is a monstrous offensive threat in SS. The offensive combination of Sludge Bomb and Earth Power threatens to 2HKO such a wide margin of the tier, that its only natural that it forces a large amount of switches. Switches that can be capitalized on by Substitute. Substitute turns what is already threatening offensively to a behemoth that can threaten an immediate win from behind a Substitute. Substitute is especially relevant in Landorus' case, as it allows it to stay in on common priority attacks such as Genesect's Extreme Speed, Urshifu's Aqua Jet and Rillaboom's Grassy Glide and retaliate with a powerful Earth Power or Sludge Bomb. Landorus taking 2 attacks at minimum to remove in general makes it much more difficult to deal with for many teams and further widens the margin of pokemon it wins against. Landorus has other options for a 4th move like Stealth Rock, Focus Blast and Psychic that are fine on some teams, but Substitute has proven itself to be one of Landorus' most consistent options.

:volcanion:
Volcanion's unique defensive profile allows it to set up and maintain Substitutes without much difficulty, which allows it to avoid OHKOs from common threats such as Landorus and Naganadel and become immune to flinches from the many Fake Outs it draws to itself, making it even more difficult to stall out Trick Room turns against it. Volcanion can struggle to fit Substitute in its moveset sometimes due to having a ton of other good options for 4th moves though.

:zygarde:
Similarly to SM, Substitute Dragon Dance Zygarde is still a powerful win condition when paired with Pokémon that can consistently pivot in and deal with Rillaboom. Substitute Zygarde got even stronger this generation in a way due to the omnipresence of Grassy Terrain. Grassy Terrain + Leftovers gives Zygarde 1/4th recovery over 2 turns, which just so happens to be the amount that it takes to create a Substitute. If you can keep Grassy Terrain up, you can theoretically Substitute + Protect with Zygarde forever until it is provided with an opening to attack or Dragon Dance. Other pokemon like Volcanion and Sylveon can also exploit this to their benefit, but Zygarde specifically benefits from this more due to its high Speed after a Dragon Dance, outspeeding most threats in the metagame. Other options like Extreme Speed and Stone Edge have started seeing usage over Substitute more frequently, but Substitute is still by far the most common option, and for good reason.

:celesteela:
This set has become significantly less common due to Meteor Beam being the more generally popular set for Celesteela and Celesteela's usage in general declining, but Celesteela can run Substitute on Leech Seed sets. Celesteela's good defensive typing and bulk allows it to become nearly unbreakable with the combination of Leech Seed and Substitute. This Celesteela set is particularly strong on hazard stack teams, as Leech Seed has amazing synergy with Stealth Rock and Spikes (Leech Seed is removed when you switch, but hazards punish excessive switching) and these teams generally have ample Fake Out support to help Celesteela maintain a Substitute.

:dracovish:
Dracovish can opt for a Mystic Water Substitute set to improve its matchup into Incineroar and make it harder to deal with via priority like Extreme Speed and Grassy Glide. There's not much else to say about it as Dracovish more commonly runs Choice Band sets and isnt particularly popular to begin with.

Conclusion

And that’s most of the relevant Substitute users in every DOU generation. I didnt cover DPP because I havent played enough of it to say what Substitute users are actually good in the tier, and I didnt cover SV because I just don’t like it and dont want to write about it (SV doesnt have many viable Substitute users anyway). Looking at archetypes in past metagames and how they’re used can inform meta developments in current generations, and Substitute is a really cool move that I wish was used more in current gen. In conclusion, sub good, thanks for reading.
 
I am going to use this as an opportunity to go on a bit of a tangent about the ruinous legendaries (actually just Chi-Yu and Chien-Pao)

DISCLAIMER: This is not me asking for any tiering action to be taken, as i understand Pokémon home is right around the corner. I just want to both answer this person's question and give my thoughts on why these Pokémon are stupid

:xy/chi yu:
I know people generally talk about Chi-Yu being broken in the context of its synergy with another very dumb Pokémon by the name of Iron Bundle (Iron Bundle post coming soon???), but I feel like people really underestimate how ridiculously powerful Chi-Yu is even when removed from the context of this pairing. Effectively having a base 194 Special Attack stat due to its ability, higher than the likes of Deoxys-Attack and Mega Rayquaza, Chi-Yu has the ability to chunk Pokémon that resist its attacks, to say nothing of the havoc it can wreak when the opposing Pokémon are neutral or weak to its attacks. Its STAB attacks hit almost the entire tier for at least neutral damage, further adding to its potent wallbreaking capabilities.

While you can use Terastallization to more effectively pivot around Chi-Yu's Heat Waves and Dark Pulses, if we are willing to consider Terastallization in the context of Chi-Yu's opponents, we must also acknowledge the fact that Chi-Yu can effortlessly break through Pokémon that commonly run Tera Water specifically for Chi-Yu such as Amoonguss with Life Orb Tera Grass sets, which can afford to fit Tera Blast into its moveset. Natural Heat Wave resists like Walking Wake get obliterated by a Tera Fairy Tera Blast or even a simple Choice Specs Dark Pulse.

Its defensive stats aren't unusable either, allowing it to even run Snarl + Will-O-Wisp sets or Assault Vest sets to provide utility to its team, or even a simple bulky Substitute set to take advantage of the many switches it forces with its powerful STAB moves. These sets allow it to overcome its already limited counterplay and establish a true stranglehold on the current metagame. Its existence makes popular Psyspam Trick Room teams inconsistent at best due to its ability to almost singlehandedly claw back an advantage in an otherwise completely lost position.

All of this is without even considering its potent pairings with other strong special attackers like Iron Bundle and Walking Wake, boosting their already high damage output to levels that even some of the bulkiest Pokémon in the tier struggle to withstand. The pairing of Chi-Yu and Iron Bundle alone significantly hinders the development of the metagame, requiring multiple techs and dedicated switchins to have a serviceable matchup into them. While not as oppressive as Flutter Mane and Chi-Yu, its hard to deny the popularity and effectiveness of this pairing when you look at the data:


| 2 | Iron Bundle | 85 | 50.60% | 54.12% |
| 3 | Chi-Yu | 83 | 49.40% | 46.99% |

Anyone who knows me knows I have to tie everything Pokémon related back to SS DOU in some way, so lets look at Rillaboom's usage in DPL as a comparison:


+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Rillaboom | 25 | 44.64% | 52.00% |


Both Iron Bundle and Chi-Yu see more usage in SV DOU than Rillaboom in SS DOU, which people complain about significantly more. They aren't even the most used Pokémon in SV, that title going to Iron Hands (I have no idea how that thing stayed unbanned) with a towering 55% usage. To be completely fair this is comparing a pre home meta to a solved oldgen, so taking this with a grain of salt is both reasonable and recommended. I am a firm believer that usage stats and winrates are terrible at measuring the actual viability of a pokemon and are kinda pointless, but people still use them for whatever reason and its a neat way to visualize the absurdity of Chi-Yu and friends.

My main problem with Chi-Yu is that, even outside of being broken, its just boring. Instead of relying on a deep coverage movepool or interesting, unique traits that make it play in an interesting way and add depth to the metagame like something like Dragapult or Pheromosa from SS (Dragapult's deep special movepool but lack of ways to take advantage of its superior physical attacking stat giving a limitation to an otherwise unreasonably good Pokémon, Pheromosa being a potent late game cleaner if played perfectly, but is extremely frail, adding depth to the teambuilder through finding ways to allow it to trade up consistently), Chi-Yu just uses STAB attacks and still 2HKOs or OHKOs 90% of the tier through brute force. Its not interesting or deep in any way, you just click the Heat Wave button and shit dies. It's hard to even talk about because it does very little/nothing interesting. The closest Chi-Yu has gotten to even remotely being a genuinely mechanically complex Pokémon is the Chople Berry Snarl + Will-O-Wisp set, but this set is pretty niche due to Arcanine filling a similar role arguably better than Chi-Yu does and other Chi-Yu sets providing more value to a team in most cases. This isn't even the only Pokémon in SV like this, most strong attackers in the tier are like this with a few exceptions like Dragonite. This is more of a personal gripe than anything and I don't think we should ban Pokémon for the simple crime of being boring, but when combined with Chi-Yu's already overbearing presence in the metagame, it just makes me want it gone even more.

:xy/chien pao:
Chien-Pao looks more reasonable in comparison with Chi-Yu, but make no mistake, Chien-Pao is still a menace in it's own right. Chien-Pao is moreso an enabler for strategies making use of Dragonite and/or Palafin to break through teams with Sword of Ruin boosted priority attacks. From personal experience, when I played SV, I find Chien-Pao + Dragonite and Chien-Pao + Palafin teams to be among the most consistent archetypes in the tier due to their complete indifference to speed control and high damage output, making them easy to pick up but difficult to play around if your team doesn't have priority blocking. Though, that's the thing, even if your opponent runs priority blocking, the Chien-Pao player will always have outs against it by resetting the terrain with Ice Spinner or removing Farigiraf and Tsareena with Throat Chop and Ice Spinner respectively. Tera Ghost to get around Extreme Speed is also swiftly punished by Chien-Pao's STAB Sucker Punch/Throat Chop. If the Chien-Pao player knows what they're doing and gets enough turns right, they straight up have the tools to just negate any and all counterplay you can generate. The problem with this is, due to Chien-Pao's frailty and terrible defensive typing, it relies on getting turns right to actually get anything done, and punishes you pretty hard for playing it recklessly.

Looking at the usage, Chien-Pao is used a decent amount, but is not nearly as widespread as Chi-Yu (albeit with a higher winrate but winrate means literally nothing and its a marginal improvement anyway)

| 12 | Chien-Pao | 29 | 17.26% | 55.17% |

As an SS comparison, its usage stats can be compared to Urshifu-R, with a similar winrate and a lower but close enough usage:


11 | Urshifu | 11 | 19.64% | 54.55% |

I don't think Chien-Pao and the teams it enables are as broken as what Chi-Yu can do, but I could definitely understand a suspect in an ideal world where we don't have to worry about Pokémon home.

Why Chi-Yu and Chien-Pao haven't been BANNED!

You just listened to me explain, in many words, why Chi-Yu and Chien-Pao (mostly Chi-Yu) are problematic. This begs the question: Why aren't they banned? The main reason for this is Pokémon home. Because Pokémon Home is most likely going to become available in the coming weeks (I say most likely because Game Freak refuses to give us a release date for some reason?), and it would be unwise to direct tiering resources to making a meta that won't exist in 3 weeks more balanced. Waiting for Pokémon Home availability and see if Chi-Yu and/or Chien-Pao are still broken afterwards. That's just about everything I wanted to say, thank you for reading.
If anything, they’ll be even more of a problem after pokemon home. There’s basically no world in which their abilities don’t enable the worst of the worst. They turn powerful pokemon into absolutely broken pokemon. That’s… only going to be more of a problem when even more powerful pokemon than we already have are unleashed on the format.
 

Teals

Banned deucer.
While it is uncertain which pokemon are going to be coming back with home, using nat dex doubles is a decent way to gauge how the ruin pokemon play out in a meta with more "brokens." Natdex has a few things that surely won't be in home, z moves and megas. However, it is clear that they play a significant role in defining the meta and it wouldn't be any different with whatever home releases. To begin with, the concept of not being able to switch out of stat drops is ridiculous, and it is significantly more broken in doubles. Intimidate has been a staple in the doubles format. Better than it is in singles due to it affecting both of your opponents mons. You were able to play around it due to the fact that you could just switch out. Here we see something entirely unique. Defense drops that affect both pokemon, and anything you swap out to. This results in a metagame where your defensive checks are hardly checks, and the best way to play around these mons is to hit harder and faster. Alternatively, you have mons that lower attack stats. Combined with Tera, these can become tedious to kill, and bulky set up mons can sit and get free turns. It creates a volatile metagame where everything becomes very matchup dependent.

Banning individual mons that perform well when paired next to ruin mons won't fix anything as the mechanics will apply just the same to the next best thing. On top of this, the ruin mons aren't deadweight. They're oppressive forces in their own right.

Overall yeah. These things probably need checked out
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top