np: OU Suspect Testing Round 5 - Sandstorm (Excadrill/Thundurus Banned)

[Ketsuban]

For one, I'd like to see Drizzle and Drought banned. It would allow for the viable creation of teams with this thing you may not have even heard of: Team synergy. I'm getting sick of seeing people able to dominate just by slapping together a team with Politoed, Tornadus, Dragonite, Scizor, Ferrothorn, and some random filler.

Having a Pokémon who can create eternal rain and some Pokémon that benefit in some way from the presence of rain doesn't qualify as "team synergy"?

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Mienshao is theoretically a good wallbreaker, but let me remind you that Mienshao has to use this move called Hi Jump Kick, whereas rain stall teams like to use this move called Protect.

Pity Feint is only 50 pow--

Feint can now inflict damage even if the target has not used Protect or Detect and its power has changed from 50 to 30, possibly to avoid overuse of this move with Technician.

Bahahahahaha. What's going to abuse it, Ambipom? Let's have Swift-likes boosted to 70 power and hit through Protect next generation and we can do away with this pointless move.

 

[blarajan]

Considering type based synergy to be the most important part of teambuilding is pure noob talk, honestly. Teambuilding isn't all about "i've got two resists to every type!"

 

[alphatron]

Teambuilding is probably the hardest part about playing this game.

In UU, I ran offensive zapdos with vulpix before the ban. Since that wouldn't work in OU, perhaps SpD Zapdos could aide drought instead. Politoed won't switch in. Scarftoed sucks in weather wars.

On another note, whatever happened to that hp ice terrakion?

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Considering type based synergy to be the most important part of teambuilding is pure noob talk, honestly. Teambuilding isn't all about "i've got two resists to every type!"

I actually had a team like that once that made it to #163(or something like that), but what it focused on was forcing switches and abusing the switch-in to set up or whatever needed to be done. It's only weakness(aside from good predictions) was Toxic Spikes as only two members were immune and nothing could spin/absorb them.


EDIT: w00000000t 1,000th Post >:3

Btw, thx Blarajan.

 

[blarajan]

Teambuilding is probably the hardest part about playing this game.

In UU, I ran offensive zapdos with vulpix before the ban. Since that wouldn't work in OU, perhaps SpD Zapdos could aide drought instead. Politoed won't switch in. Scarftoed sucks in weather wars.

On another note, whatever happened to that hp ice terrakion?

It kind of worked. Though, I don't particularly enjoy using Life Orb on Terrakion, and that was necessary to hit Gliscor. So I just preferred smashing it with Band. It worked pretty well though. Not at all needed anymore due to the lack of Gliscors.

I actually had a team like that once that made it to #163(or something like that), but what it focused on was forcing switches and abusing the switch-in to set up or whatever needed to be done. It's only weakness(aside from good predictions) was Toxic Spikes as only two members were immune and nothing could spin/absorb them.

Lol, the problem with most "lol resistances" teams is that they're really weak to dual-type Pokemon. I have two Pokemon that resist Ice and two that resist Ground!! But all are super effective to Mamoswine. That sort of thing.

Also, HAPPY 1K KEFKA <3.

 

[Kefka Palazzo™]

Lol, the problem with most "lol resistances" teams is that they're really weak to dual-type Pokemon. I have two Pokemon that resist Ice and two that resist Ground!! But all are super effective to Mamoswine. That sort of thing.

Also, HAPPY 1K KEFKA <3.

Well, the only dual-type pokemon that gave the team trouble was...Terrakion(which wasn't TOO common at the time) and Skarmory I guess since he could easily set up hazards.

 

[New World Order]

What you base teambuilding on depends on what kind of team you're making. If you have a stall team, you'd better be keeping type synergy into consideration. With a balance team, you should more be concerned with keeping everything in check than type synergy. With an offensive team, you should be more concerned with "can I hit everything hard/ revenge kill stuff".

EDIT: Post #666

 

[GtM]

Considering type based synergy to be the most important part of teambuilding is pure noob talk, honestly. Teambuilding isn't all about "i've got two resists to every type!"

I remember making a team with something like 10 type immunities or something ridiculous... it didn't get very far but i sure as hell caused a lot of ragequits. I think it was something like Jellicent / Bouffalant / Heatran / Gliscor / Bisharp / Porygon2. I just kept switching between them for different attacks against predictable opponents. :P

 

[Fawfulmk-II]

from my return here i have a few things to say:

-it's nice to see that the discussion over Reuniclus cooled down since last time.
-while I'm still on the fence over the Excadrill ban, I'm cool w/ Thunderus going poof. will this mean that Emolga Zapdos will go up a tier?

-how of all dragons in the game, did DRAGONITE get nominated as a suspect?

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

from my return here i have a few things to say:

-it's nice to see that the discussion over Reuniclus cooled down since last time.
-while I'm still on the fence over the Excadrill ban, I'm cool w/ Thunderus going poof. will this mean that Emolga Zapdos will go up a tier?

-how of all dragons in the game, did DRAGONITE get nominated as a suspect?

That beats me. I'm assuming people were just bitching about Multiscale.

 

[Pippy]

-how of all dragons in the game, did DRAGONITE get nominated as a suspect?

Dragonite is a very dangerous Pokemon, and with Multiscale, he's even more dangerous, as it adds to his already impressive bulk and gives him an almost guaranteed Dragon Dance. He also has great stats to abuse DD, as it remedies his low speed and sends his already high attack (base 134) through the roof. To top it all off, Dragonite has an immense movepool, making him unpredictable and able to serve a variety of roles other than set up sweeper.*

Personally, I don't think he's broken due to his glaring SR and Ice weaknesses, but he is definatly suspect.*

 

[EpicTurtle]

Honestly, Dnite isn't broken. I mean it's a REALLY good Pokemon, but with Sand, SR, Bulky Steels and the general metagame, it isn't that hard to deal with. I mean with Excadrill gone, it is harder to deal with, but I personally don't think Dnite deserves to be suspect.

 

[lmitchell0012]

Honestly, Dnite isn't broken. I mean it's a REALLY good Pokemon, but with Sand, SR, Bulky Steels and the general metagame, it isn't that hard to deal with. I mean with Excadrill gone, it is harder to deal with, but I personally don't think Dnite deserves to be suspect.

I think the mixed sets are probably why people think dragonite is broken. Physical walls can deal with the physical sets, and special walls can deal with whatever special moves it's carrying. However, I don't think there's anything that can switch into a mixed set and threaten him if he's at full health. I'm assuming that like garchomp, he's using a yache berry set that's making him broken??

 

[THATSAplusONE]

Honestly, Dnite isn't broken. I mean it's a REALLY good Pokemon, but with Sand, SR, Bulky Steels and the general metagame, it isn't that hard to deal with. I mean with Excadrill gone, it is harder to deal with, but I personally don't think Dnite deserves to be suspect.

Correct. It's not broken, but something needs to be broken right jk lol. There are people just can't except their own faults and losses and blame everything but themselves for why they can't win. This is probably the case here.

 

[lmitchell0012]

Actually, now that I think about it, porygon2 seems like a pretty good counter to dragonite (if there are no entry hazards up): Eviolite+Trace+Multiscale=Insane defenses.

 

[Raikaria]

I think the mixed sets are probably why people think dragonite is broken. Physical walls can deal with the physical sets, and special walls can deal with whatever special moves it's carrying. However, I don't think there's anything that can switch into a mixed set and threaten him if he's at full health. I'm assuming that like garchomp, he's using a yache berry set that's making him broken??

If MixNite was the broken factor, Salamence would already be Uber, because Mence outclasses Mixnite due to a higher speed and Sp.Atk.

The set most people complain about is Bulky Dragon Dance, but even then, any form of passive damage, such as Sand or Rocks, means that Dragonite becomes Gen 4 Dragonite, and thus, inferior to Salamence.

 

[PK Gaming]

The set most people complain about is Bulky Dragon Dance, but even then, any form of passive damage, such as Sand or Rocks, means that Dragonite becomes Gen 4 Dragonite, and thus, inferior to Salamence.

We've gone over this. If you think Salamence is superior to Dragonite in gen V, you have not played mid to high level BW, you have not watched mid to high level BW, you have not read mid to high level BW teams etc.

The set that gets on everyones nerves isn't the Bulky Dragon Dance set. Its the Lum DD set, since balanced and offensive teams cannot OHKO it under ideal conditions, nor can they check it with Tanks (for example, my teams tank, Bronzong gets wrecked by fire punch, my check Landlos can't OHKO with stone edge etc) I've actually had someone say "gg" when Dragonite set up 2 dances (entirely possible, unlike mence) because I couldn't keep up with it / or check it. Now SR and Sand obviously hurt its effectiveness, but the onus is on the opponent to set up rocks AND bring out their SS. Also, SS only activates at the end of the turn, so Dragonite still gets one free turn. It sounds easy to check Dragonite on paper, but in practice its tough especially if the Dragonite user goes out of their way to keep Multiscale in pristine condition. As an aside, Deoxys-S + Dragonite is an overpowered combination hahaha...

The Bulky Dragon Dance set is significantly weaker offensively and is more of a "bulky booster" it can't sweep through entire teams because it doesn't have the muscle to pull it off.

TL;DR: I don't think Dragonite is broken, but its undeniably the single best offensive Pokemon in the entire BW OU metagame. Terrakion might it a run for its money but nothing else can compare.

 

[shrang]

Sub/DD Dragonite (I decided to try out after hearing how good it was) is a fucking maniac, IMO. The only thing that can counter it is Skarmory, and even that loses if Dragonite is the last Pokemon. Ferrothorn and Bronzong gets stalled out of Gyro Balls and Dragonite can actually set up on HP Ice. Jirachi loses to DD + Sub + Roost. Gliscor is a weak piece of shit that can't hurt you at all, even with Ice Fang. Scizor is the only that thing that remotely beats it, and we all know how easy it is to set up on Bulley Punch. I'm not calling it broken, but it is so ridiculously easy to set it up. Just for the record, I used to run 24 HP / 4 Def / 252 Atk / 228 Spe Adamant (I changed it due to a certain weakness on my team) to outspeed Deoxys-S at +2, so you can't say it doesn't hit hard either.

 

[tehy]

Well, excadrill was the main check to it, but we all know how that's turned out. I just use sableye at the end, honestly.

 

[NoJohns]

Can anyone tell me how Dnite manages to keep Multi-scale intact? What exactly is it switching in on that makes it so easy to gain these boosts? How do people keep Stealth Rock off the field when the best rapid spinner in the game, Excadrill, is now banned?

Apologies if I'm sounding facetious to those who have genuine trouble with Dragonite, but I just want to know what makes him such a good sweeper.

 

[Eggbert]

Yea offensive / bulky offensive teams vs. multiscale nite under screens...does end well for them. Nite with lum is practically invincible under these conditions. Nite does hate repeated status from insanely bulky pokemon, like certain eviolite mons. It's BW, you have to sac something in order to stop it from sweeping. What I do is have a really really reliable SR user. If they waste time trying to spin or use Espeon, I just set up on them so nite can't get the time to setup.

 

[New World Order]

I agree with PK Gaming that Dragonite is the most powerful pokemon in the metagame. However, I disagree that it outclasses Salamence offensively, for the simple reason that Salamence has superior Special Attack. Both pokemon have similarly powerful Outrages, however, Dragonite often finds itself in trouble against the likes of Skarmory because it is forced to break through with Fire Punch, whereas Salamence can dispatch it with Fire Blast. One may bring unpredictability into the discussion, but with 2 sets, Salamence already has enough unpredictability to go by. When Salamence enters the field, one should never assume its set. If you assume MixMence and it turns out it was DD. Congrats, you've just given Mence a free setup to plow your team. If you assume DD and it turns out to be MixMence. Congrats, you've just lost your physical wall to a DM.

In fact, the only reason to use offensive DD Nite over Salamence is Extremespeed. Salamence doesn't absolutely need rapid spin support because it usually only needs 1/2 turns to break the game open, whereas Dragonite pretty much comes with a rapid spinner. Moreover, Salamence doesn't actually have as much difficulty setting up as you'd think. With Intimidate, Mence can come in Multiple times per match, Dragonite is often forced into a now or never position, especially if Multi Scale is removed.

I am by no means saying Salamence is better than Dragonite, but Dragonite is not the offensive god people make it out to be. I feel much more pressure with Salamence on the field than Dragonite on the field. Even though Salamence is easier to bring down, it doesn't need nearly as much support to wreak havoc. Stealth Rocks is basically a must on every team anyways, so its not like you're making specific preparations for Dragonite. There are a significant number of pokemon capable of revenge killing it, and there are pokes Dragonite has trouble breaking through such as Quagsire and Hippowdon, who by the way is the perfect DDNite counter, bringing sand and stealth rocks to the table. Is Dragonite dangerous? Absolutely. Is it unstoppable? No. It is by no means broken, while Multi Scale is a pain to deal with, people should stop complaining and actually prepare for it. If you find Dragonite a threat to your team, why would you not make changes to fix that? Any competent battler would be willing to get rid of their Weavile check or whatever for a Dragonite check.

 

[Eggbert]

Dragonite is actually underestimated, if anything. It's fairly easy to get multiple DDs (especially with screens) with it and clean a team or just be a can opener for another sweeper. This is especially effective on offensive teams as once Dragonite takes down or weakens 2 of the other team's walls it is really easy to sweep. Nite is also an amazing cleaner and has access to extremespeed, which is really good on the DD set for weakening scarfers or chloro users or picking off faster things if you aren't boosted.

Keeping SR off isn't the most difficult thing. I don't even use a spinner and play around 60% of my games without SR on my field due to a fast taunt and alot of offensive pressure that leaves them little time to set up (or if the do, more setup time for me)

 

[Aerodactyl Legend]

I've always been more afraid of DD Dragonite than DD Salamence. The way it can pull a clutch on an entire team when you're losing is insane. Salamence is generally better by offensive terms, but with Dragonite's boosts this generation, I find them both pretty interchangable when building teams.

 

[Agent123]

I don't care about Dragonite because I run Scarf Haxorus : )