A few people have been asking for more clarification on why exactly we chose to suspect Gigalith over other elements of Sand, e.g Sand Rush / Sand Stream, a combination of Sand Rush + Sand Stream, Smooth Rock, and Sandslash + Stoutland, so I'm going to do my best to go into detail on what influenced our final decision and answer most of the questions brought up in this thread.
"Why not suspect test Sand Rush over Gigalith? That way you preserve Gigalith and kill off Sand as a playstyle completely"
This is a very fair question and at first glance it seems like the most effective way of ending the Sand issue without having to ban any Pokemon. Unfortunately, this would be very much against our usual tiering philosophy of sticking to simple bans and our desire to stay as close to the cartridge games as possible.
For starters, Sand Rush being suspected and banned would imply two very problematic ideas;
1. Sand Rush is an inherently broken and uncompetitive ability in NU.
2. Every Pokemon that has the ability Sand Rush and is available for usage in NU is broken and too overwhelming for the tier.
Obviously we know that Sand Rush is not a broken ability. Its effectiveness (and the effectiveness of sand as a whole) is completely dependant on how consistent your sand setter is, in this case the sand setter is Gigalith. We know that Sand as a playstyle is not overwhelming when coupled with balanced sand setters, see: Hippopotas or manual Sand Storm setting (both of which were seen unviable in past metagames and continue to be unviable in the current metagame). In fact, I'd go as far as to say Sand as a playstyle is probably the weakest and least consistent playstyle in the tier when Gigalith is taken out of the equation, which should already be a strong indicator of Gigalith's involvement in its ascension to the top of the meta. There's a bunch of reasons for why Sand on its own, and in extension 'Sand Rush' is not broken, and pales in comparison to other weather playstyles.
Now that we've broken down the specifics of Sand Rush, it's clear that banning the ability would be unnecessarily complex and based on a false perspective of the ability being broken, when it clearly is only able to flourish based on how effective Gigalith is at supporting the playstyle. Some people might argue that "you could just as easily say Gigalith is only broken because of Sand Rush users", but that's incorrect, Gigalith is what enables Sand to be as overwhelming as it is, if the Sand Rush users were truly the problem, then that would mean that Hippopotas would be broken because of them, but that isn't the case. The Sand Rush abusers are just the consequences of Gigalith's immense sand-setting capabilities, it's the catalyst for this entire playstyle. Arguing that Sand wouldn't be broken without Sand Rush users is effectively just saying that if you ban the abusers, the playstyle has nothing to abuse Gigalith's broken support, and therefore isn't an issue anymore. Of course it isn't an issue, you're banning everything that can utilise Sand and effectively killing off an entire weather which isn't broken for the sake of protecting one Pokemon. The point of this suspect isn't to make Sand unusable or go extinct (which is exactly what a Sand Rush test would do), the point is to remove a Pokemon which is broken due to the unchallenged support it provides to a particular playstyle. Hopefully that's enough detail as to why 'Sand Rush' wasn't picked to be suspected, onto the next question.
"Drought was banned in the Beta period of NU. Why not just ban Sand Stream, how is it consistent to ban one weather setting ability and then claim you're banning Gigalith for consistency's sake?"
The main thing we strive to make sure when considering ability bans is that if we are going to that extreme, every single user of that ability should be broken or overwhelming or at the very least viable enough to the point that it makes a playstyle too overwhelming to sustain in NU. Back in beta we had two 'Drought' users in the tier, Ninetales and Vulpix. Obviously we knew Ninetales was broken, and a simple Ninetales ban was being discussed at first. However we decided that before we went that route, we should find out if Drought Vulpix could support Sun to a level that would still make it overwhelming. So a bunch of council members went out and made Drought Vulpix teams, tested it against good players, on the ladder, etc, and we found that due to the hyper offensive nature of sun, simply having a Pokemon that could set 8 free turns of Sun multiple times throughout a match was far too much for the tier to handle, and it was also deemed broken. That's why we went with the Drought ban, all Pokemon with that ability were too broken in the supported they provided to Sun. As a playstyle, Sun is the most aggressive of all the weathers, so it's not accurate to compare it to Sand which takes a much more balanced approach in it's most popular builds (which is partly due to the small number of abusers as well as the lack of direct buffs Sandstorm provides in comparison to something like Sun's Fire-type damage buff or automatic Solarbeams).
Sand has two options for Sand Stream setters, Hippopotas and Gigalith. We know Sand Stream Hippopotas is not broken as many of us have tried Hippo sand to no avail, it simply doesn't have the bulk to sustain the bulky offense route which Sand teams take, nor does it provide the defensive and offensive capabilities that makes Gigalith so good at what it does, therefore we're once again left with Gigalith as the sole issue and only sand setter which makes the playstyle as a whole overwhelming.
"If we banned Smooth Rock, Gigalith would have less turns of Sand to provide, and you'd be able to preserve Gigalith, why not ban that?"
Item bans in general are something I strongly disagree with because at that point you're just treading around the issue for the sake of protecting something, but regardless, banning Smooth Rock would do nothing to make Sand less overwhelming. A lot of Sand teams have been using Choice Banded Gigalith lately, as seen in high level NUPL matches, as well as the classic leftovers set to sustain Gigalith's longevity even further. Clearly Smooth Rock would be a small hit for Sand, but it would do nothing to address the issue and just create a scenario of us having to look at Sand again because we didn't have the guts to deal with it properly from the offset. Moreover, suspect tests are not made in order to preserve something, they're made to put arguably broken elements under the microscope so the community can vote on whether or not they're too much for the tier to handle. No amount of theorymonning in a post Gigalith metagame matters in this test, and it should not be the basis of people's arguments. If anything is an issue when Gigalith is potentially banned, it gets looked at after the suspect, there's no point making guesses and speculating and it should not prevent you from banning something which is otherwise broken. Please dont think that by voting 'Do Not Ban' just because you weren't happy with the Council's decision, or because you want to keep Gigalith you're going to achieve anything, because that sort of mentality is completely flawed and will affect the tier in a very negative way.
"I still don't agree with Gigalith being suspect tested, if I vote 'Do Not Ban' and Gigalith ends up staying, will Sand be addressed again in the future in the form of another suspect test, for example a 'Sand Rush' test"
No, we will not be suspect testing Sand Rush, Smooth Rock, Sandslash + Stoutland, Sand Stream, or Sand Stream + Sand Rush now, later, or in the distant future. If you think Sand is an issue and broken in the tier, then vote Ban in this suspect test. We will not be going against our tiering policies and reasoning, nor do we plan on setting a bad precedent for future suspect tests in NU. So for the very few people considering voting 'Do Not Ban' because they think the Council is going to go back on it's word, reconsider.
All in all, our final decision was based on Gigalith being deemed as the central culprit behind making Sand broken. All other alternatives were discussed and crossed off the list for the reasons stated above and we all agreed that this was the simplest way to address the problem and the way which made the most sense for us as a tier as well as one which stays true to Smogon's tiering philosophy.
Now that I've answered the major questions that have been brought up in this thread, I might as well give my own opinion on the actual suspect so we can start steering this discussion into the right direction.
I will unsurprisingly be voting to 'Ban Gigalith' because I believe the support it provides to the sand archetype is far too good for the tier to handle and turns an otherwise mediocre playstyle into something overwhelming which restricts the growth of the tier, limits teambuilding options, and has made offense and hyper offense incredibly risky to use due to how good of a natural match-up it has by virtue of Gigalith's consistency. Gigalith has far too little downside for the ridiculous support it provides to Sand, and the tier will greatly improve from it's departure.
I hope that's cleared up any questions and concerns anyone had. Myself, Hootie, and the NU Council are happy to answer any further unanswered questions you might have in the NU general discord or NU room. Anymore discussion of different routes to take for this suspect test or any commentary not related to the current suspect test is going to be deleted and infracted, so please stick to the topic at hand which is Gigalith, and remember that if you feel Sand is an issue (which I know most people do), then vote Ban. Thanks for reading.
"Why not suspect test Sand Rush over Gigalith? That way you preserve Gigalith and kill off Sand as a playstyle completely"
This is a very fair question and at first glance it seems like the most effective way of ending the Sand issue without having to ban any Pokemon. Unfortunately, this would be very much against our usual tiering philosophy of sticking to simple bans and our desire to stay as close to the cartridge games as possible.
For starters, Sand Rush being suspected and banned would imply two very problematic ideas;
1. Sand Rush is an inherently broken and uncompetitive ability in NU.
2. Every Pokemon that has the ability Sand Rush and is available for usage in NU is broken and too overwhelming for the tier.
Obviously we know that Sand Rush is not a broken ability. Its effectiveness (and the effectiveness of sand as a whole) is completely dependant on how consistent your sand setter is, in this case the sand setter is Gigalith. We know that Sand as a playstyle is not overwhelming when coupled with balanced sand setters, see: Hippopotas or manual Sand Storm setting (both of which were seen unviable in past metagames and continue to be unviable in the current metagame). In fact, I'd go as far as to say Sand as a playstyle is probably the weakest and least consistent playstyle in the tier when Gigalith is taken out of the equation, which should already be a strong indicator of Gigalith's involvement in its ascension to the top of the meta. There's a bunch of reasons for why Sand on its own, and in extension 'Sand Rush' is not broken, and pales in comparison to other weather playstyles.
- You only have two viable sand abusers; Stoutland and Sandslash, maybe three if you consider Lycanroc (though personally I don't rate Lycanroc too highly on Sand teams and wouldn't really consider it anywhere near as menacing as the first two.)
- Sand doesn't provide any of its common abusers any buffs in damage or bulk, it simply activates the ability Sand Rush. When you take away Gigalith's ridiculous sand supporting ability, Sand Rush is simply a speed boosting ability with no other perks and requires the use of unviable Pokemon to even function (Hippopotas or manual setters). This is particularly important to consider when you bring things like Swift Swim and Chlorophyll abusers into the picture who have both their ability activated AND receive damage buffs and other perks from their corresponding weather. My point is bringing this up is that while other weather playstyles are viable and can thrive based on the merit of buffs they recieve from Rain and Sun, Sand cannot. Sand can only be used viably and be a legitimately threatening playstyle when it is being given by support by Gigalith to such an overwhelmingly ridiculous degree that it can operate without any buffs.
- (Keep in mind that I'm not counting Gigalith in this point because it's a Sand Setter, I'm purely talking about Sand Rush users here. I'm also not mentioning Lycanroc because it's very rarely seen on sand, and most people will agree that even with the SpD buff, it's rather mediocre.)
- So with that being said, clearly it's not fair or accurate to pinpoint Sand Rush as broken when it's far more tame in comparison to other weather-based abilities like Swift Swim and Chlorophyll which have the advantage of benefiting from the actual weather and not just the ability. (Note that this point doesn't need the Rain/Sun comparison to stand, I'm just using it to make things clearer).
Now that we've broken down the specifics of Sand Rush, it's clear that banning the ability would be unnecessarily complex and based on a false perspective of the ability being broken, when it clearly is only able to flourish based on how effective Gigalith is at supporting the playstyle. Some people might argue that "you could just as easily say Gigalith is only broken because of Sand Rush users", but that's incorrect, Gigalith is what enables Sand to be as overwhelming as it is, if the Sand Rush users were truly the problem, then that would mean that Hippopotas would be broken because of them, but that isn't the case. The Sand Rush abusers are just the consequences of Gigalith's immense sand-setting capabilities, it's the catalyst for this entire playstyle. Arguing that Sand wouldn't be broken without Sand Rush users is effectively just saying that if you ban the abusers, the playstyle has nothing to abuse Gigalith's broken support, and therefore isn't an issue anymore. Of course it isn't an issue, you're banning everything that can utilise Sand and effectively killing off an entire weather which isn't broken for the sake of protecting one Pokemon. The point of this suspect isn't to make Sand unusable or go extinct (which is exactly what a Sand Rush test would do), the point is to remove a Pokemon which is broken due to the unchallenged support it provides to a particular playstyle. Hopefully that's enough detail as to why 'Sand Rush' wasn't picked to be suspected, onto the next question.
"Drought was banned in the Beta period of NU. Why not just ban Sand Stream, how is it consistent to ban one weather setting ability and then claim you're banning Gigalith for consistency's sake?"
The main thing we strive to make sure when considering ability bans is that if we are going to that extreme, every single user of that ability should be broken or overwhelming or at the very least viable enough to the point that it makes a playstyle too overwhelming to sustain in NU. Back in beta we had two 'Drought' users in the tier, Ninetales and Vulpix. Obviously we knew Ninetales was broken, and a simple Ninetales ban was being discussed at first. However we decided that before we went that route, we should find out if Drought Vulpix could support Sun to a level that would still make it overwhelming. So a bunch of council members went out and made Drought Vulpix teams, tested it against good players, on the ladder, etc, and we found that due to the hyper offensive nature of sun, simply having a Pokemon that could set 8 free turns of Sun multiple times throughout a match was far too much for the tier to handle, and it was also deemed broken. That's why we went with the Drought ban, all Pokemon with that ability were too broken in the supported they provided to Sun. As a playstyle, Sun is the most aggressive of all the weathers, so it's not accurate to compare it to Sand which takes a much more balanced approach in it's most popular builds (which is partly due to the small number of abusers as well as the lack of direct buffs Sandstorm provides in comparison to something like Sun's Fire-type damage buff or automatic Solarbeams).
Sand has two options for Sand Stream setters, Hippopotas and Gigalith. We know Sand Stream Hippopotas is not broken as many of us have tried Hippo sand to no avail, it simply doesn't have the bulk to sustain the bulky offense route which Sand teams take, nor does it provide the defensive and offensive capabilities that makes Gigalith so good at what it does, therefore we're once again left with Gigalith as the sole issue and only sand setter which makes the playstyle as a whole overwhelming.
"If we banned Smooth Rock, Gigalith would have less turns of Sand to provide, and you'd be able to preserve Gigalith, why not ban that?"
Item bans in general are something I strongly disagree with because at that point you're just treading around the issue for the sake of protecting something, but regardless, banning Smooth Rock would do nothing to make Sand less overwhelming. A lot of Sand teams have been using Choice Banded Gigalith lately, as seen in high level NUPL matches, as well as the classic leftovers set to sustain Gigalith's longevity even further. Clearly Smooth Rock would be a small hit for Sand, but it would do nothing to address the issue and just create a scenario of us having to look at Sand again because we didn't have the guts to deal with it properly from the offset. Moreover, suspect tests are not made in order to preserve something, they're made to put arguably broken elements under the microscope so the community can vote on whether or not they're too much for the tier to handle. No amount of theorymonning in a post Gigalith metagame matters in this test, and it should not be the basis of people's arguments. If anything is an issue when Gigalith is potentially banned, it gets looked at after the suspect, there's no point making guesses and speculating and it should not prevent you from banning something which is otherwise broken. Please dont think that by voting 'Do Not Ban' just because you weren't happy with the Council's decision, or because you want to keep Gigalith you're going to achieve anything, because that sort of mentality is completely flawed and will affect the tier in a very negative way.
"I still don't agree with Gigalith being suspect tested, if I vote 'Do Not Ban' and Gigalith ends up staying, will Sand be addressed again in the future in the form of another suspect test, for example a 'Sand Rush' test"
No, we will not be suspect testing Sand Rush, Smooth Rock, Sandslash + Stoutland, Sand Stream, or Sand Stream + Sand Rush now, later, or in the distant future. If you think Sand is an issue and broken in the tier, then vote Ban in this suspect test. We will not be going against our tiering policies and reasoning, nor do we plan on setting a bad precedent for future suspect tests in NU. So for the very few people considering voting 'Do Not Ban' because they think the Council is going to go back on it's word, reconsider.
All in all, our final decision was based on Gigalith being deemed as the central culprit behind making Sand broken. All other alternatives were discussed and crossed off the list for the reasons stated above and we all agreed that this was the simplest way to address the problem and the way which made the most sense for us as a tier as well as one which stays true to Smogon's tiering philosophy.
Now that I've answered the major questions that have been brought up in this thread, I might as well give my own opinion on the actual suspect so we can start steering this discussion into the right direction.
I will unsurprisingly be voting to 'Ban Gigalith' because I believe the support it provides to the sand archetype is far too good for the tier to handle and turns an otherwise mediocre playstyle into something overwhelming which restricts the growth of the tier, limits teambuilding options, and has made offense and hyper offense incredibly risky to use due to how good of a natural match-up it has by virtue of Gigalith's consistency. Gigalith has far too little downside for the ridiculous support it provides to Sand, and the tier will greatly improve from it's departure.
I hope that's cleared up any questions and concerns anyone had. Myself, Hootie, and the NU Council are happy to answer any further unanswered questions you might have in the NU general discord or NU room. Anymore discussion of different routes to take for this suspect test or any commentary not related to the current suspect test is going to be deleted and infracted, so please stick to the topic at hand which is Gigalith, and remember that if you feel Sand is an issue (which I know most people do), then vote Ban. Thanks for reading.
