Metagame NP: NU Stage 3 - Rain On Me [Bans Post #87]

[Finchinator]

Snorlax is obviously broken. It’s a blanket wall to every special attacker in the tier and can be very difficult to 3hko. Curse is the first blatantly broken set but it’s really easy for Snorlax to deviate from this set and beat its checks. For example, something like Toxic / Body Slam / Heat Crash / Rest takes away sweeping potential for statusing Jellicent and OHKOing Escavalier. Snorlax gets to choose its checks and use its teammates to check the few things that don’t force Snorlax out. Clearly a ban to me and didn’t need any more time in the tier.

I echo this entirely. Snorlax was one of the easier votes I have ever made; it was clearly broken. The Choice Band and more offensively geared sets were manageable, but the sheer utility it presented as a blanket wall with a non-passive presence was more than enough for it to invalidate dozens of Pokemon.

Sneasel was another thing I voted ban on. I personally believe it had very few counters. Yes, it was a stronger threat on paper than it was in practice. I get that CB sets were SR vulnerable and SD sets lacked power, but overall it was still ridiculously restrictive if you wanted to be consistent against it. The tier has respectable removal rn and honestly pivoting into most frail breakers is possible given the current landscape of momentum oriented cores. Sneasel was a closer case than Snorlax, but I still found it too much to deal with.

I was on the fence about two Pokemon: Escavalier and Ninjask. As for the former, it was too early and close to call for me. I would not be shocked if it got handled next vote, but I feel like it being slow and abusable at least will grant us time to identify if it is too strong offensively despite these things. My first guess is yes, it probably will be, but it does not make the metagame unplayable like Snorlax and it had only been a few days, so I was hesitant. As for Ninjask, I know this may be a hot take, but it is really annoying to deal with. It chips everything and with HDB, it is never really dying. It is not the strongest or most durable Pokemon obviously, but it finds a way to invalidate a lot of counterplay over time and then win/threaten to win games. I admit that it does not fit the conventional "broken" profile and because of this I voted do not ban, but I can see why it was nominated and why sjneider voted ban 100%.

To me, I do not find Gallade broken and have not at any point. LO struggles to get many hits in and usually caps out at 1 kill -- even with LO, it lacks OHKO power normally and finds itself struggling to get in repeatedly, let alone set up, so it is normally more than manageable imo. Scarf is good, but just that -- a very good Pokemon with enough pivots and counterplay. Every team carries resists to STABs and most have some bulky SR setter like Mudsdale, which makes it very easy to account for. You do not have to bend overbackwards for this and I feel it brings another healthy offensive presence to the tier that is not particularly restrictive.

 

[Rabia]

Duraludon is broken because it’s way too good of a lead on HO.

This is the one part of your post that just... really confuses me. I don't think Duraludon's place on hyper offense is where I would claim its viability to mostly arise from, and it surely isn't what I'd base its banworthiness on either. I think Duraludon is beyond a shadow of a doubt hyper offense's best lead, but beyond that it's mostly just a good and reliable option for the archetype. Most of its utility comes from early-game, where it sets Stealth Rock and maybe fires off a Draco Meteor, but beyond the first few turns it usually has little to no impact because you're rarely looking to keep it around. I think when using it on HO, you're best off trying to break what you can with its STAB moves and Body Press (maybe even Thunderbolt is ok still on such sets just for Jellicent); the issue, though, is it's just not as strong of a breaker as I'd like it to be without Choice Specs. 120 Special Attack is great yeah, but I find it relatively decent to wall with options like Escavalier and Galarian Stunfisk because of their resistances and ability to take Body Press fine enough. I think some of my opinion simply comes down to what I perceive as good on this set/in general too; I'm much higher on Focus Sash Duraludon and lower on other item options, and I don't view the slow Fairy-types as very good right now, so maybe I'll try out other items and see how it goes from there (I value highly not losing to lead Ribombee/Whimsicott). But I don't think Duraludon's viability really is based in the potential of HO. I'd much sooner pin it on Choice Specs/Iron Defense sets.

 

[Mariannabelle]

Felt like shouting out a few mons

SPOOKY OCTOBER SHOUTOUTS

No longer invalidated by Sneasel. Snorlax meta also would have driven a fatal stake into it. It's fast Ice-Ghost offense. It definitely can't fill Sneasel's void, but at the very least it isn't just outclassed at what it does now. As an attacker, Froslass is a bit on the weaker side with only 80 base ATK, but it does bring cool stuff to the table like Ghost resistances, high bp STAB Poltergeist, Taunt, Spikes, and the ability to use both physical and special attacks.

Gallade is still around, and the loss of Sneasel represents one less thing that Sableye is food for.

No more competition from Decidueye, no more Sneasel, and Miltank is being pushed toward Thicc Fat.

Ninjask is still around (not that Rotom is the best check lmao), and Rotom is no longer Sneasel food.

----------------------
Also shoutout for:

Now that we have another great Fairy check in Escavalier, maybe we can start seeing other Silvally formes besides Steel. Silvally-Dark comes to mind to fill the Dark STAB void left by Sneasel, Silvally-Ghost because it's spooky October month, Silvally-Electric just because I think it's got mad coverage, Silvally-whateveryouwant is fine.

 

[Danny]

After conferring with the homies, and using the fox herself on one of my favorite ladder teams where I use her to ‘trap’ Weezing allowing Ninjask or Escavalier to win, I’d like to shout out Thievul.

Thievul is a great breaker,using it’s specs set to break holes and get surprise kills on supposed switch ins. Thievul gets the amazing ability Stakeout allowing it to dish out 2x the damage it would on forced switch outs. Considering the constant use of Weezing in order to check Escavalier, expect Thievul to consistently come in and essentially trap the Weezing or else allow an offensive mon to be OHKO’d by DP or a defensive Pokemon not named Clef or Aromatisse to be 2hko’d. Even resists such as Ribombee and Whimsicott take 76-90 and 72-80 respectively. Thievul also benefits from the fact that fairies are really limited by escavalier, allowing the fox to deal out huge amounts of damage. This ability paired with perfect coverage in Psychic and Burning Jealousy, not to mention utility knock off or momentum in u turn or parting shot, make thievul a force to be reckoned with.

 

[poh]

Sup.

I'd like to talk about a pokemon that may or may not be problematic for the tier. Problematic in terms of teambuilding and general growth of the metagame.

​

Ninjask's case is particular because it rarely happens that a pokemon can be labeled as 'unhealthy' even though it has plenty of defensive and offensive counterplay. This is a very rare case: a pokemon that's ten times better in practice than on paper. It doesn't look threatening until you realize your whole team is chipped, your win con is easily revenge killed by it and Ninjask can clean up lategame.

My first argument as to why Ninjask is unhealthy is it completely invalidating most if not all scarfers. Why would you use scarf Gallade or scarf Rotom when you could use Ninjask which outspeeds literally everything without locking itself. This leads to lazy teambuilding which then leads to a stagnant metagame. Ninjask not only invalidates scarfers but many setupsweepers (offense as a whole) in general too.

Ninjask is a very low risk/ high reward pokemon, especially with HDB. Checks get chipped over the course of a game very easily, i mean literally Steel-types losing 70% of their health through mindless U-turns and Dual Wingbeats. Once your supposed checks, who don't have reliable recovery might i add, are weakened enough it's not hard for Ninjask to eventually clean.

I probably worded a lot badly but I do think council should have another look at this.

 

[Katy]

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it is an interesting case of a mon which - on paper alone - doesnt seem problematic at all, its typing isnt the best and its very fragile to begin with, and its attack stat seems mediocre with only 90 base. but with heaving heavy-duty boots to help out with the stealth rocks-weakness and its low risk/high reward play i view it as a problematic case for the tier. ninjask can literally do everything without getting chipped by stealth rocks and it can slowly chip its checks down via u-turning out all over again, when an expected check comes in, it can even use dual wingbeat on its incoming check and after it u-turn out to leave the check chipped enough for the lategame. moreover it can make use of protect which helps it to be faster than some of the scarfers in the tier, scouting for its move and then u-turning out to a fitting partner to take on the opposing pokemon.
Ninjask leaves teambuilding restrictive to a point where steel-types are a necessety i feel. togedemaru, alo-slash galar-fisk, and steelvally are probably its best checks as of now, but it can just u-turn on them. the other issue is, that to deal with ninjask it could be that ppl feel the need to be forced in a good amount of priority-moves like ice shard or will-o-wisp from prankster pokemon such as sableye. i think playing with ninjask is a low risk and ninjask has plenty of teampartners to take advantage of its momentum-serving move in u-turn and the scouting with protect, bringing excellent partners in, BUT playing against it is a high risk for the opponent, with leaving its checks vulnerable to not only the chips ninjask is doing all over again with u-turn but also entry-hazards like stealth rocks and spikes which only help ninjask slowly chipping them down.
i personally view ninjask as a problematic case because it fullfills the aspect of an unhealthy pokemon in the tier, leaving players with only a very limited counterplay which can get chipped easily in the long-term of the game, where ninjask has no trouble to clean up the entire team in the lategame. in my opinion looking at ninjask is very much needed.

thanks for reading that block of text btw, forgive me if i worded things badly.

 

[kay]

So I can get why people see Ninjask as problematic, but I think rather then it being problematic it's mostly just it finds itself in a meta it can thrive in. Teams are forced to be rather offensive right now because of the extremely powerful wall breakers that bulky teams just don't have answers to, so they attempt to be faster and more offensive to help combat that but then you run into issues of Ninjask really gate keeping how offensive teams can realistically get before Ninjask just starts rolling over them and its there that really lies the problem. We have so many broken wall breakers in the tier that's forcing the meta in the direction that's ripe for the picking for Ninjask.


I think rather then looking at Ninjask it would be more worthwhile to look at these two as together they totally invalidate the bulky teams that are historically good into Ninjask. SD Gallade is a monster where defensively we only really have Sableye to defensively deal with it as even Pyukumuku gets 2hko by LO CC and Escavalier pretty much has nothing aside from one time switch ins like Colbur Jellicent, Mudsdale, and physically defensive Poliwrath. The combination of these two has left the tier in a state of unviability for slower teams like stall or the euro balance of old and I think the tier would really benefit from removing one or ideally both from the tier.

 

[roxie]

Just going to say, I do find Ninjask quite unhealthy, especially after experimenting with various tournament games. There is not a lot of great things that can deal with Ninjask properly because if you mention Steel-types like Silvally-S or Sandslash-A that gets worn down by both U-turn and the supposed breaker thats coming in makes it very un-managable in the long run. I'm not sure if I am building incorrectly or if this thing literally just sticks out right now. I haven't heart any argument on why Ninjask should stay and I don't feel like naming random resistances or "Rocky Helmet" as reliable checks because then I'd be using something like Regular Stunfisk + Static + Rocky Helmet.

Other than Ninjask, I am liking the Ghost- and Grass-types in the tier, Trevenant and Gourgeist-Small in particular as running Choice Band hits incredibly hard. I think ever since the Sneasel ban, a light has shined on these 2 Pokemon and mentioning this 100x times before, Itemless is not really common in NU as opposed to the Itemless Tier PU (where mons literally run itemless to be unaffected by Poltergeist). Trevenant is a nice status absorbant like Clefairy and can heal itself periodically in the match with Nature Cure, wheras Gourgeist has nice Speed, and in particular, this form outspeeds Basculiun. I have thought about expirementing NP, but it just seems like a lot can check its NP sets. I did see eternally using trev first so s/o to him and this set!! (i dont have the ev spread figured out yet lol)

Gourgeist + Trevenant

Gourgeist-Small @ Choice Band
Ability: Frisk
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Poltergeist
- Power Whip
- Shadow Sneak
- Trick

Trevenant @ Choice Band
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Poltergeist
- Horn Leech
- Earthquake
- Wood Hammer

 

[poh]

Dlc2 is upon us and it will take a while until stuff trickles down but there are already a few new toys to play with.


Golbat is a very dynamic mon and will add more to the tier cause it can fill lots of roles. Roost and brave bird are a given and from there you can fill in the remaining moveslots to your liking. Golbat is mainly used as a defogger but can also act as a disruptor and pivot. Taunt, toxic and super fang disrupt slower builds while u-turn can bring in the dangerous breakers like clawitzer and gallade. Golbat can act as a check to a plethora of popular mons like gallade, ribombee, whimsicott and ninjask while also sponging massive hits like specs draco meteor from duraludon or even a blizzard from vanilluxe. Personally looking forward to using golbat, hoping that RU doesn't use it.


These goofy 2 got their hidden ability released, Slush Rush. While i don't think they will be instantly 10 times better, they now have some sort of asset that can make them a bit more threatning. Under hail they outspeed the unboosted meta bar ninjask and accelgor, while having their signature move deal double damage. Arctozolt seems more promising to me cause you can run bolt beak as your main stab, blizzard and fdry for mudsdale and gastro respectively and stomping tantrum last for stunfisk. Aurorus will eventually drop down too so yeah hail looking fun to use.

 

[Segetarius]

Okay, it is time for me to way in on a situation that I feel has become a little out of control. Recently, 3 mons in particular have come under fire for being banworthy to some of the player-base, even with the additions (and potential drops) from DLC2, and I feel that while my attempts might be futile, at least I can put in my two cents and lay out how I think of the current metagame situation.



This bug has been a hot topic for a bit now, with some demanding a ban and others, including myself, saying that this mon is a product of the metagame and not by any means banworthy. Allow me to pose the question to those of you who believe Ninjask is banworthy: why is it overwhelming now, but was considered a gimmick in an overall weaker meta a few months ago? I would submit to you that the answer is that the meta is more offensive, with bulky offense being far and away the most popular playstyle. Ninjask is able to thrive in this meta because with investment, there is no priority move that OHKO's it, thus it can freely speed boost and cleanup the faster and frailer mons present on bulky offense. A few months ago, in a bulkier meta, Ninjask was nigh unviable simply because Fisk-g was in the tier, among other bulky mons. Proponents to a jask ban have argued that it simply U-turn's out of its checks, opening up other breakers, yet I say again, a few months ago it could still do all of that and it was considered a gimmick. It's not like we cant deal with Ninjask, the meta is simply harsh to those playstyles that could consistently do so in the past. Why? Keep reading!



This is the other bug that has been highly controversial, ever since it dropped. Many complain that the CB set can't be walled and that its combination of typing, stats, movepool, and ability make it overwhelming. Some have even gone so far as to say that it's the only good steel type in the tier. I think this is all a little exaggerated. Yes, Escav has excellent traits offensively and defensively, yet neither of these sets are overwhelming for a simple reason: its speed. Offensively, base 135 attack may seem too powerful by NU standards, but since its held back by a base 30 speed stat and surprisingly unimpressive bulk on offensive sets, its very specialized in what it does. In this meta of bulky offense, the CB set breaks the slow, bulky mons on these teams, Mudsdale being the first that comes to mind. Yet against so many other offensive mons, Escav is dead weight, as it really only beats the offensive fairies, which we were doing before Escav dropped. Defensively, Escav's typing is superb and it poses an offensive threat even uninvested, but only to already frail mons, resulting in a somewhat awkward fourth move slot on the SpDef sets. Do you run SD for more offenseive-defensive use? Toxic to punish switches? Protect for greater longevity? Even Megahorn is a consideration for more power. And to conclude, I'll show the same calcs as when Escav was on the slate of potential bans:

0- SpA Silvally-Steel Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 172+ SpD Escavalier: 168-200 (48.8 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

0- SpA Silvally-Steel Flamethrower vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Escavalier: 216-256 (70.8 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO



This is the mon in this post that I feel is truly banworthy and extremely unhealthy to the metagame. You may have noticed that in my analysis of the other two mons in this post, I repeatedly talked about how they fit into a meta of bulky offense. Well, Gallade is singlehandedly responsible for BO being the meta. Gallade is more than capable of invalidating every single balance/defensive/stall team with every one of its sets, and simply put, Gallade has no true counters in the tier. Scarf is easily the most common set, and even this set is able to wallop all of the aforementioned playstyles, yet much of the danger of Gallade is that you can't safely assume it is Scarf. Scarf, CB, SD, SubBU, even AV, these are all viable sets, each requiring different measures to stop it and each capable of sweeping teams. Many argue that there is a common counter to all of these: Sableye and to a lesser extent, Def Aromatisse. To this I say, when was the last time you saw either of those mons? I haven't seen either in a week, which was the last time I encountered a stall team. And even these "counters" can be beat by all of the aforementioned sets (except AV). Scarf and Band sets just Trick and then these "counters" are neutered and the setup sets, especially with Sub, use these as fodder. Gallade was NUBL and was only recently unbanned, and I think we've seen enough to conclude that Gallade is still way to restrictive to stay in NU. If it was up to me, this mon would be banned, and I think that many would be amazed at how Jask usage especially would dwindle. I'm begging any council members reading this, next time there are ban votes, ban this mon, for the health and sanity of the metagame.

 

[Kiyo]

Allow me to pose the question to those of you who believe Ninjask is banworthy: why is it overwhelming now, but was considered a gimmick in an overall weaker meta a few months ago?

Just wanted to touch on this point as I've consistently voted Ninjask lower than other (VR) Council members in the past.

I think there's been a stigma associated with this Pokemon among the perennial NU players. It was used seriously at the beginning of SM with SD+Z-Dig sets being popular, but other than that it has historically been a Pokemon you frequently see on the low ladder, and occasionally on the high ladder, but scarcely in a high-stakes environment such as SPL or NU Open. I can attest that after three-plus years of voting this mon to be C-rank or UR on the VR, I have been reluctant to rank this mon seriously despite recognizing it as a constant threat when facing it.

To your point, Ninjask hasn't changed, but the pokemon very clearly is not broken. I'm not sure if Ninjask distorts building to the point its unhealthy for the metagame, I think we've done ok so far, and drops making the metagame more volatile by nature makes me want to wait to do most anything tiering wise.

 

[Mariannabelle]

I’m curious to know what the community thinks of hail right now.

On one hand, we have a glut of powerful Slush Rushers in Arctozolt/Arctovish/Sandslash, all of which can be supported by Aurora Veil. Aurora Veil compensates for bad bulk of various other non-weather offense as well. The veil or hail itself can be extended with various items, and the setters themselves are offensive powerhouses. Other instant weather methods are banned/irrelevant.

On the other hand, hail teams involve stacking ice weaknesses and tend to have a predictable game plan.

What do you think?

 

[Pabloaram]

Aurora veil was a problem before the Arcto got his hidden ability. The tier has many abuser of screens in ninetales, ninjask, gallade, frostmoth, etc...
Hall "cheep" most defensive mons outside of Avalug and Alolash and the extra bulk of screens is too much when outside of ice typing both Arcto has great bulk

 

[Segetarius]

I’m curious to know what the community thinks of hail right now.

On one hand, we have a glut of powerful Slush Rushers in Arctozolt/Arctovish/Sandslash, all of which can be supported by Aurora Veil. Aurora Veil compensates for bad bulk of various other non-weather offense as well. The veil or hail itself can be extended with various items, and the setters themselves are offensive powerhouses. Other instant weather methods are banned/irrelevant.

On the other hand, hail teams involve stacking ice weaknesses and tend to have a predictable game plan.

What do you think?

Hail has become extremely controversial, so I might as well give my thought process.

Hail on the one hand is an excellent playstyle against offense, as many mirrors between offensive teams come down to who can hit harder and faster. In this regard, hail has the market cornered through efficient and, depending on how you build it, extremely fast setup. If you really want to go all in on ending the game quickly, you could go so far as to run light clay and veil on Vanilluxe with explosion to provide a switch to your sweeper, though I wouldn't recommend that. Generally, just having mons with Slush Rush and setting up veil gives hail an edge as an offensive playstyle, especially with the meta revolving less around hazards.

That being said, I think the counterplay to hail is pretty simple and easy to incorporate into teams. Besides stacking Ice-types on a team, which is already a risky proposition given all of the Gallade and Escavalier in the meta, weather-based offense generally has a basic weakness since their inception: hazards. Hail especially suffers from this dilemma, as the most of the abusers are weak to Stealth Rock, yet so many of them yearn for extra power like Choice Band on Arctovish or Life Orb on Arctozolt. This isn't to say that the hail abusers can't run boots, but there are legitimate reasons to run power boosting items instead. This issue is only confounded since one thing veil can't stop is hazards. Thus, I find that one of the effective ways to deal with hail is Toxic Spikes, as the setters (Weezing and Garbodor) fill roles both as setters and good checks to the abusers, since, if nothing else, they will spread a lot of residual damage. Now obviously, this doesn't apply to Sandslash-A, but it has the issue of two 4x weaknesses to fighting and fire, common coverage types, and bad SpDef even under veil. This leads to a difficult position where even the plenty common mons that hail can break such as Mudsdale aren't necessarily dead weight if they manage to set up Stealth Rock, at least against the more offensive hail teams. Yet, hail finds it difficult to run a small core of say two or three mons, as this makes it a lot more difficult to repeatedly set the weather and position the sweepers, as ultimately, the Arcto-mons are thoroughly unimpressive without hail.

These are among the issues I observe when playing against hail, and frankly, I don't think there is a perfect solution that will result in a hail apocalypse. Hail may be a fine tool in lower laddering, but it's fundamental issues and predictability make it a mediocre choice against experienced players, at least through my eyes.

 

[etern]

Locking this thread since we'll be having a new NP thread later today / tomorrow posted by rozes when we get the first DLC2 Shift of the month. See you then!