Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

[Magcargo]

I've really been enjoying using Ash Greninja lately. Its able to acquire so much free damage early / mid-game thanks to the threat of Battle Bond forcing out low health / death fodder Pokemon, allowing it to weaken many of its checks with respectably powerful Dark Pulses and Hydro Pumps. Once Greninja transforms, its the ultimate cleaner since it outspeeds a majority of the unboosted metagame and 1-2 shots everything with its frighteningly powerful Hydro Pumps and Dark Pulses. Greninja also has a very powerful priority Water Shuriken against faster mons like CS Genesect and Pheromosa, meaning they are hardly safe responses.

Greninja has some issues with Fat Grass and Water types like Mantine and Tapu Bulu, but pairing it up with things like Tapu Koko, Celesteela, and CB Genesect can usually resolve these issues.

 

[Morkal]

Color me ignorant, but what do you mean by "slow building momentum?"

You also mentioned rain. I personally like that the new Rain mon (Pelipper) has actual utility outside of rain setting (2 excellent STABS under rain, Roost, U-turn, random Knock Off). I've been considering it even on a non-dedicated rain team, personally.

It's no worries! I should have been more clear in my explanation. As we're all well aware; while this generation of Pokemon had an absolutely massive power creep, it at the same time removed three key things from Gen 6's metagame. Those three things removed were; heavy reliance on priority, the decline of non-hazard set up, and having entire teams based around blowing holes in the other team consistently. Generation 7's new threats are considerably a fair bit slower (especially all of the Tapus not named Tapu Koko), and any faster, more frail threats introduced (such as Pheromosa), require assistance from these faster threats to prevent things such as priority. Tapu Lele is arguably for Gen 7 what Talonflame was for Gen 6, and will shape the metagame in a (albeit far different way), but with just as much impact. This leads into what I said about slow building momentum. This generation, you have to be careful about managing your terrains / weather, hazard control, status control, all things that during the previous generation were simply ignored for hyper offense 75% of the time.

On another note, Pelipper has always been one of my favorite Pokemon, and to see it get Drizzle plus a nice little boost to its Special Attack is absolutely wonderful, and I'm so happy that it's more usable now.

 

[Alphanex20]

It's no worries! I should have been more clear in my explanation. As we're all well aware; while this generation of Pokemon had an absolutely massive power creep, it at the same time removed three key things from Gen 6's metagame. Those three things removed were; heavy reliance on priority, the decline of non-hazard set up, and having entire teams based around blowing holes in the other team consistently. Generation 7's new threats are considerably a fair bit slower (especially all of the Tapus not named Tapu Koko), and any faster, more frail threats introduced (such as Pheromosa), require assistance from these faster threats to prevent things such as priority. Tapu Lele is arguably for Gen 7 what Talonflame was for Gen 6, and will shape the metagame in a (albeit far different way), but with just as much impact. This leads into what I said about slow building momentum. This generation, you have to be careful about managing your terrains / weather, hazard control, status control, all things that during the previous generation were simply ignored for hyper offense 75% of the time.

On another note, Pelipper has always been one of my favorite Pokemon, and to see it get Drizzle plus a nice little boost to its Special Attack is absolutely wonderful, and I'm so happy that it's more usable now.

Well put, especially since (as I was recently surprised by), Tapu Lele is (like Talonflame) not impossible to counter. All you really need is a Steel that doesn't mind Lele's coverage too much (Magearna and Celesteela come to mind, not to mention they aren't the easiest things to trap either) or a non-Fairy Weak Dark (Alolan Muk is an example that gets STAB Pursuit, STAB Knock Off, and Poison Touch for haxy shenanigans).

 

[Morkal]

Well put, especially since (as I was recently surprised by), Tapu Lele is (like Talonflame) not impossible to counter. All you really need is a Steel that doesn't mind Lele's coverage too much (Magearna and Celesteela come to mind, not to mention they aren't the easiest things to trap either) or a non-Fairy Weak Dark (Alolan Muk is an example that gets STAB Pursuit, STAB Knock Off, and Poison Touch for haxy shenanigans).

Ironically (I mentioned this like five or ten pages back not sure), I've been OHKOing Tapu Lele's on the switch in with a niche Arbok set on one of my teams that has actually worked wonders in OU, and deals with the Tapus pretty damn well.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

it's wild other than unware clefable teams i haven't seen any good stall teams without shednija

idk i 'm about shednija <3

 

[Morkal]

it's wild other than unware clefable teams i haven't seen any good stall teams without shednija

idk i 'm about shednija <3

Shedinja has always been wonderful, and if you have hazard / weather control he's even more wonderful. Sand is currently (at least from what I've been seeing lately) the second least common weather being used, so Shedinja doesn't have as much to worry about.

 

[Alphanex20]

it's wild other than unware clefable teams i haven't seen any good stall teams without shedinja

idk i 'm about shednija <3

That's mostly because of Xurkitree and Manaphy. You need one or the other to stop those monsters from 6-0ing you lol.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

That's mostly because of Xurkitree and Manaphy. You need one or the other to stop those monsters from 6-0ing you lol.

I run max speed heatran so even if xurtitree was hp fire i'd body it, shed just punishes u-turn/volt switch while supporting Your team, but sadly You can only squeeze one offense choice user on the same team.

I've ran shed last gen in both pre oras ou and oras ubers, it with it's teammates were forces to lose some match-ups even outside of sand, early meta helps it but it hard counter u-turn/volt-turn.choice items which are currently a must

edit is 1533 to low to be called meta?

 

[Punchshroom]

So I've just been dicking around with chat and calcs and managed to conjure up this monstrosity:

Hoopa-Unbound @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Magician
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Dark Pulse
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast

+2 252+ SpA Hoopa-Unbound 190 BP Special Fighting vs. 240 HP / 216+ SpD Mandibuzz: 425-501 (100.9 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Hoopa-Unbound 190 BP Special Fighting vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Muk: 369-435 (89.1 - 105%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO, guaranteed OHKO after SR
+2 252+ SpA Hoopa-Unbound 190 BP Special Fighting vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela: 396-466 (99.4 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Hoopa-Unbound 190 BP Special Fighting vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Magearna: 326-384 (89.8 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

The damage is actually ridiculous.

 

[Jojobobo]

Well put, especially since (as I was recently surprised by), Tapu Lele is (like Talonflame) not impossible to counter. All you really need is a Steel that doesn't mind Lele's coverage too much (Magearna and Celesteela come to mind, not to mention they aren't the easiest things to trap either) or a non-Fairy Weak Dark (Alolan Muk is an example that gets STAB Pursuit, STAB Knock Off, and Poison Touch for haxy shenanigans).

I've been using Fightinium-Z Focus Blast Lele with Calm Mind, it blows a lot of steels and dark types out of the water - even those not hit super-effectively take over 50%. Point is, out of all the Tapus it is extremely hard to counter and I think suggesting it is manageably counter-able is a bit disingenuous. I've also seen on the ladder Scarf sets with both Psychic and Psyshock - meaning that very little can comfortably switch in for a second time after seeing one of those (they'll assume, as you would, they only have one Psychic move) which makes for an easy win.

All that said, even if something like Lele were to be banned, I think access to things like Fightinium-Z will make other Psychic types very hard to manage if they boost - it's not like it's something Lele is the only mon capable at exploiting just that it's quite a bit better at it than most. Besides, currently Lele seems like the best option to deal with the Toxic (heh) stall rife at the top of the ladder - so it is a bit of a necessary evil.

 

[Marzbar]

Ironically (I mentioned this like five or ten pages back not sure), I've been OHKOing Tapu Lele's on the switch in with a niche Arbok set on one of my teams that has actually worked wonders in OU, and deals with the Tapus pretty damn well.

Arbok!? Teach me your ways! I love this epic Team Rocket snake <3
Is it Coil Gunk Shot shenanigans?

 

[Morkal]

Arbok!? Teach me your ways! I love this epic Team Rocket snake <3
Is it Coil Gunk Shot shenanigans?

Arbok @ Black Sludge
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Gunk Shot
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch

Lives hits from most of the Tapus (bar a Psychic from Tapu Lele) and usually can OHKO without a boost (everything is OHKOd with +1 though), it also can deal with Heatran, and a multitude of other threats. Also it's a hard stop to Pheromosa.

 

[Duck Chris]

I've really been enjoying using Ash Greninja lately. Its able to acquire so much free damage early / mid-game thanks to the threat of Battle Bond forcing out low health / death fodder Pokemon, allowing it to weaken many of its checks with respectably powerful Dark Pulses and Hydro Pumps. Once Greninja transforms, its the ultimate cleaner since it outspeeds a majority of the unboosted metagame and 1-2 shots everything with its frighteningly powerful Hydro Pumps and Dark Pulses. Greninja also has a very powerful priority Water Shuriken against faster mons like CS Genesect and Pheromosa, meaning they are hardly safe responses.

Greninja has some issues with Fat Grass and Water types like Mantine and Tapu Bulu, but pairing it up with things like Tapu Koko, Celesteela, and CB Genesect can usually resolve these issues.

I've tried this and I must say I was torn between battle bond and Gunk Shot. What's your fourth move after Hydro, Pulse, and Shuriken?

 

[Niftyyyy]

Ironically (I mentioned this like five or ten pages back not sure), I've been OHKOing Tapu Lele's on the switch in with a niche Arbok set on one of my teams that has actually worked wonders in OU, and deals with the Tapus pretty damn well.

What kind of a noob switches a Tapu into an Arbok though? That's just suicide. My choice band rampardos destroys greninja when it tries to switch in as well, doesn't make it a good answer to it.

 

[Magcargo]

I've tried this and I must say I was torn between battle bond and Gunk Shot. What's your fourth move after Hydro, Pulse, and Shuriken?

U-turn to gain momentum vs common switch ins like mantine, chansey, etc.

 

[Morkal]

What kind of a noob switches a Tapu into an Arbok though? That's just suicide. My choice band rampardos destroys greninja when it tries to switch in as well, doesn't make it a good answer to it.

Rampardos doesn't have STAB super effective moves against Greninja, while Greninja's Water STAB is super effective against Rampardos. Arbok's STAB is super effective against all of the Tapus (4x against Tapu Bulu), and with the exception of Tapu Lele, none of the Tapus have super effective STABs against Arbok. You can bring in Arbok on the Tapus (bar Lele), and it's a reliable answer to many of the game's most prominent threats (especially Pheromosa). Try running it! You'll be surprised on just how much it can carry a match sometimes.

 

[tigers jaw]

use av alolan muk instead. does the exact same, but better, whilst actually beating lele (which is fucking huge), pursuit traps, removes items etc. basically, it isn't total dogshit.

 

[Morkal]

use av alolan muk instead. does the exact same, but better, whilst actually beating lele (which is fucking huge), pursuit traps, removes items etc. basically, it isn't total dogshit.

Usually people are dumb enough to switch Lele in on my Arbok and get their Lele's OHKO'd by Gunk Shot. Not to mention that A-Muk's neutrality to fighting makes it not as adept to deal with Pheromosa, it also doesn't have access to Sucker Punch or Earthquake like Arbok does (Arbok is my answer to Heatran). So in the context of my team, Arbok is more useful.

 

[M BLADE]

Damn, then your team must suck. (just kidding... well, kinda).

Any thoughts on Keldeo? Besides being completely countered by Toxapex unless it' using Taunt... and hating Tapu Koko as well as Tapu Bulu... and Tapu Fini... and Tapu Lele haha (Koko and Lele won't like Hydro Pump though, and i swear Scald has100% chance of burning which is bad for Tapu Bulu).
Seems like it isn't as effective as before.

 

[Gerard]

Usually people are dumb enough to switch Lele in on my Arbok and get their Lele's OHKO'd by Gunk Shot. Not to mention that A-Muk's neutrality to fighting makes it not as adept to deal with Pheromosa, it also doesn't have access to Sucker Punch or Earthquake like Arbok does (Arbok is my answer to Heatran). So in the context of my team, Arbok is more useful.

That's people being really dumb, not Arbok being any good. If they are resorting to switching in Tapu Lele on that then they are desperate since they are a lot of pokemon who would do a much better job switching in (Landorus-T, Scizor, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Hippodown, Sableye, and a huge etc...).

 

[RabidChipmunk]

Arbok @ Black Sludge
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Gunk Shot
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch

Lives hits from most of the Tapus (bar a Psychic from Tapu Lele) and usually can OHKO without a boost (everything is OHKOd with +1 though), it also can deal with Heatran, and a multitude of other threats. Also it's a hard stop to Pheromosa.

Yeah about all that

252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arbok: 195-230 (60.1 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Arbok: 195-230 (60.1 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Arbok: 328-387 (101.2 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (oml this pokemon)

Those last two calcs assume electric terrain and grassy terrain are up, respectively

So yeah, I don't see how Arbok is an answer to any of those Pokemon. I wish he was since I love him, but it's just not happening.

 

[Ema Skye]

How are you guys feeling about Latios in the new meta?

I'll admit I haven't seen it much or used it a whole lot. But the times I have used it left me feeling like it's not as viable. The number of threats it can switch in on feels like it shrunk and it probably hates the new fairies moreso than any other returning Pokemon. It also isn't liking the drop in usage for Keldeo and Zard Y.

That said, dropping a Draco is still so satisfying!

 

[Duck Chris]

How are you guys feeling about Latios in the new meta?

I'll admit I haven't seen it much or used it a whole lot. But the times I have used it left me feeling like it's not as viable. The number of threats it can switch in on feels like it shrunk and it probably hates the new fairies moreso than any other returning Pokemon. It also isn't liking the drop in usage for Keldeo and Zard Y.

That said, dropping a Draco is still so satisfying!

Honestly probably still the best offensive defog user, although Tapu Fini probably works better for fatter teams.
I think I'd use Latios if I already had terrain on my team, because otherwise Tapu Fini's support is definitely worth it.
Worth mentioning that clicking Defog on Latios is a free switch in for your opponent's Genesect, so keeping your opponent on their toes by attacking first and defogging later might be better.

 

[pika pal]

A lot of big stuff running around absolutely shits on Latios: The Tapus as Fairies (Fini also neuters Draco Meteors on teammates), Specs Ash-Greninja scares it out even before it transforms, Magearna shits on any set without HP Fire, there's Celesteela, Skarmory, more niche stuff like SubRoost Decidueye and Mimkyu (OHKOs at +2 with Shadow Sneak using Disguise for set up), and the things that just shit on everything (Genesect, Protean Greninja, Pheromosa) also don't do him any favors.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 306-362 (102.3 - 121%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Pre shift Ash-ninja)

Top that off with missing out on the Terrains (Lele's priority protection and Fini's Status immunity when absorbing Scalds) meaning he doesn't gain the same degree of support from running with the Tapus, the shift doesn't look very kind to Latios. Given time for a couple more suspects to get addressed that might change, but the going for Latios doesn't look too great right now.

 

[Marzbar]

Arbok @ Black Sludge
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Gunk Shot
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch

Lives hits from most of the Tapus (bar a Psychic from Tapu Lele) and usually can OHKO without a boost (everything is OHKOd with +1 though), it also can deal with Heatran, and a multitude of other threats. Also it's a hard stop to Pheromosa.

Why Shed Skin over Intimidate?