Implemented Keep RBY BO3

[earl]

genuinely, I’ve never seen this level of what I can only interpret as actual malice from staff? why does uniformity matter here? is the asymmetry driving you crazy? let ppl play what they want

edit: mods removed my grinchposting :(

 

[Da Pizza Man]

It's abundantly clear that we did not adequately communicate our decision-making process. This post is an attempt to rectify that mistake and clarify how we came to the decision we made.

Apart from RBY, every slot across all trophy team tours has always been Bo1. D4 Repertoire's post in the original thread already covers much of the reasoning why we believe Bo1 is the optimal format for team tours. Obviously, there is slightly more variance in any individual match in a Bo3 vs a Bo1, but in the team's opinion, the drawbacks clearly outweigh the benefits. The primary factor in our consideration was the workload increase across the team that comes with more Bo3 slots, which will inevitably exclude some players who can't commit the increased time and cause fatigue in both the players and supporters of each slot over the course of a tour. Additionally, at the end of the day, these are team tours and each week's result is determined by a team-wide Bo8/10/12 series. We don't think these drawbacks are offset by team reusability either, as that inherently diminishes the creativity on display each week.

We also believe that playerbase votes on Bo1 vs Bo3 are flawed in practice, which is why we denied this proposal in the original thread. A vote before auction absolutely does not guarantee it'd match with the preferences of the players that actually end up playing the tier over the course of the season. A vote after the auction, with each team's starter submitting their preference, comes with its own issues. First, the players signing up have no idea if they'll be playing Bo1 or Bo3, and since they have to be prepared for Bo3, this ends up being exclusionary to those dissuaded by the format for the reasons mentioned above. In addition, it means managers will be forced to draft without full knowledge of what exactly they are drafting for and simply have to pray that the player they buy ends up having the same preference as the majority to avoid negative impact.

With the above 2 conclusions, we were convinced that team tours should generally be Bo1 and that playerbase votes are not a practical solution to determine the match format within a tour. This led us to consider the status of the only outlier in trophy team tours: RBY Bo3. RBY Bo3 has been the status quo since SPL 6, where it was created because the TDs, 9 years ago, believed RBY was too luck-based (relevant screenshots: one|two) to be Bo1 and also didn't require prep due to the mechanics of the generation. Both of these things have proven to be untrue over the years, as any RBY player would argue that the tier is indeed competitive, and while the nature of prep may be different from other tiers, it is not minimal. Given the flawed reasoning for the original decision and similar sentiments echoed by players with significant RBY accomplishments in the thread, we believe it's right to reverse that legacy decision. Bo1 treats RBY as an equal to every other tier in trophy tournaments and keeps our tours completely consistent and standardized as they should have been all along.

We understand that this timing is far from ideal; however, we felt it better to resolve this before the upcoming SPL instead of having another year of inaction on this thread only to come to the same conclusions outlined above. We apologize for the initial miscommunication on our end, but hope you can understand our perspective a bit better after this post.

I see that the tournament directors have decided to honor the season of giving by giving us the community the middle finger with this response. Stuff like this is why Smogon leadership often gets a bad rap both inside and outside the website, and leads me to think that there really needs to be some sort of leadership reform.

 

[spoo]

would like to echo the sentiment of sabelette and co that top players (and everyone else) should seriously consider sitting out for this edition regardless of whether you play rby or not. this is the best way to show solidarity and support for your rby friends who are really fucking mad, and is the best (only) way to show TDs that these kinds of decisions with 0 community input dont just come without consequences. this decision is much bigger than just rby and i hope that people don’t assume their tier is magically safe from falling victim to this same kind of bullshit in the future. yes, a boycott hurts the prestigious reputation that this tour is supposed to uphold, but that is exactly the point, and the TDs have decided to compromise this tour’s competitive integrity anyways. if you honestly want things to change then dont just post about it but actually do something

 

[Sabelette]

Posts about boycotts and resignations are getting edited or deleted and if mine is any indication they are not even notifying people, heads up.

Edit: for the record it is supposedly senior staff who are doing this and not the TDs but I obviously cannot confirm this, but my post shortly before the double down by TDs was fully deleted with no notification/reason and several posts from recently have been removed or edited by mods.

 

[Mizuhime]

Posts about boycotts and resignations are getting edited or deleted and if mine is any indication they are not even notifying people, heads up.

Forget the shitty, uneducated, brain dead decision at hand, if this part is true anyone who is involved in deleting the aforementioned posts should resign immediately anyways.

You were part of the decision that set the community on fire, don't go deleting posts to pretends it's not as bad as it is. Your only way out of this is accountability now, make the right choice by the community you're suppose to be leading

 

[Gimmicky]

Posts about boycotts and resignations are getting edited or deleted and if mine is any indication they are not even notifying people, heads up.

In what world is this a proper response from the TD team? Do they think if they silence enough people that we’ll suddenly be much nicer in our criticisms? TDs had a chance to earn back our respect by reversing a terrible decision that 90% of the community hated, and they had a second chance to earn it back by not doubling down on said decision, but to delete posts calling for boycotts or resignation is cowardly and completely antithetical to your job as a community servant.

If you, as a community servant, refuse to serve the needs/wants of the people and go as far as to delete posts calling for you to reevaluate your methods of leadership, then you are unfit to be in a position of power. This is fucking shameful. It’s one thing to delete outright harassment and unfounded hate, but to delete/edit posts calling you out for abuse and/or unworthiness of your power, or calling to boycott a tournament you have intentionally sabatoged is cowardly. Do your job correctly or resign.

 

[Finchinator]

In what world is this a proper response from the TD team?

No TDs have deleted any posts, for the record. (I haven’t either since half the community thought I was still one LMAO)

 

[Gimmicky]

No TDs have deleted any posts, for the record. (I haven’t either since half the community thought I was still one LMAO)

Posts being deleted on behalf of TDs by other mods isn’t that much better. Not every post needs to be a three paragraph long essay to get the point across, and deleting posts just for being “one-liners” or editing/deleting posts calling for boycotts is unprofessional and in super poor taste at a time like this

 

[phoopes]

Let me be abundantly clear: the TD team has not touched this thread since “the decision” was made.

Posts that were edited/deleted were done so by me. I only deleted shit that was explicitly trolling or just a one-liner with no substance. As you can see, I’ve left up plenty of posts that contain actual criticisms/feedback/whatever.

I don’t agree with the decision either. But I wasn’t going to let people just troll in this thread. If you want TDs to resign, I guess that’s your right. But I deleted the posts that basically just said “I’m mad resign lol” because they weren’t that productive like some of the other posts in this thread actually are.

I’m leaving up the last few posts from Sabelette, Mizuhime, and Gimmickyasitgets even though they were posted with a clear misunderstanding of what was going on.

Please in the future stop assuming shit without knowing all the facts first. Thanks.

EDIT: if you want to get mad my DMs are open

 

[Concept Everything]

And I hope my former colleagues appreciate how much anger I am restraining when I worked 5+ years to integrate RBY with Smogon Tournaments and make it a normal part of the circuit, only to see it immediately mistreated literally the first possible chance after I step down. I do not deserve this. My tier does not deserve this. Do your fucking jobs PLEASE

This may come as something contentious but it’s my belief that each subsection on Smogon should have the opportunity to elect a member of their section into the TD team to alleviate this from becoming a future issue to a certain degree. It’s clear that had this been brought up to the RBY section before the overall BO1 decision was made then this entire situation may have been completely annulled before it started. This situation as a whole has clearly reflected negative opinions on the current members of the TD team and the future of the TD team, I’m not saying electing someone from each section would completely fix this; however it would alleviate a situation like this occurring in the future to some degree. Players who aren’t actively involved in a tier should not be making decisions on a tier without contacting the section staff within that tier for their opinions and feedback on any action within a tier.

 

[Sabelette]

Let me be abundantly clear: the TD team has not touched this thread since “the decision” was made.

Posts that were edited/deleted were done so by me. I only deleted shit that was explicitly trolling or just a one-liner with no substance. As you can see, I’ve left up plenty of posts that contain actual criticisms/feedback/whatever.

I don’t agree with the decision either. But I wasn’t going to let people just troll in this thread. If you want TDs to resign, I guess that’s your right. But I deleted the posts that basically just said “I’m mad resign lol” because they weren’t that productive like some of the other posts in this thread actually are.

I’m leaving up the last few posts from Sabelette, Mizuhime, and Gimmickyasitgets even though they were posted with a clear misunderstanding of what was going on.

Please in the future stop assuming shit without knowing all the facts first. Thanks.

EDIT: if you want to get mad my DMs are open

and what about the edits and my 3 paragraph post saying people should boycott? I don’t think there is any reasonable argument that those are trolls, and yet.

 

[Rewer]

@TD's don't be stubborn friends, just reverse it. This clearly didn't have the expected reaction (though it's a very funny one). It's okay to make mistakes! We're all flawed humans.

Thankfully, there's an easy fix, which is saying sorry and reverting it back to the format that wasn't broken. No reason to keep community unhappy, it's christmas and it's time to be jolly!

 

[phoopes]

and what about the edits and my 3 paragraph post saying people should boycott? I don’t think there is any reasonable argument that those are trolls, and yet.

As for edits the only things I edited out were a quote of a deleted post and a random shot at Finch’s grandmother (lol)

The post of yours that you’re referencing was deleted because it was hella inflammatory. If you want to call for a boycott that’s fine. I myself will not be signing up for SPL. If you want TDs to resign that is your right as well. But please try to keep things respectful.

 

[Kristyl]

Whether or not you agree with RBY being made Bo3 originally it's become abundantly clear that there's unanimously a preference for it over the years. If you don't want to let DPP players vote on it for logistical reasons like figuring out a voting pool I think that's at least somewhat valid (though we could surely find a solution). But punishing RBY players for literally no reason other then "symmetry" then doubling down on it is so disrespectful its almost laughable.

RBY Bo3 has been the status quo since SPL 6, where it was created because the TDs, 9 years ago, believed RBY was too luck-based (relevant screenshots: one|two) to be Bo1 and also didn't require prep due to the mechanics of the generation. Both of these things have proven to be untrue over the years, as any RBY player would argue that the tier is indeed competitive, and while the nature of prep may be different from other tiers, it is not minimal. Given the flawed reasoning for the original decision and similar sentiments echoed by players with significant RBY accomplishments in the thread, we believe it's right to reverse that legacy decision. Bo1 treats RBY as an equal to every other tier in trophy tournaments and keeps our tours completely consistent and standardized as they should have been all along.

NONE OF THIS MATTERS! Again, it does not matter if the original decision to make RBY Bo3 was right or wrong, the players unanimously agree over the years that its the preferred format, as seen that its played in all RBY tournaments and RBY players have never complained about Bo3. There is no reason or justification to suddenly remove it from SPL other then incompetence and lack of care about players interest. I really have no interest in participating in this SPL or any future tournaments run under this leadership, it's clear the priorities are all fucked up. At the very least keep it for this edition then it can be discussed after. Its not too late to right this wrong but sweeping it under the rug will kill the communities trust even more then it already has and make the relationship between players and TDs even more bitter.

Echoing this sentiment:

daily reminder that we are a community full of ppl who play a made up format of pokemon for fun.

I think we should really re-evaluate how Smogon is run as a whole. Not allowing ADV players to ban Speedboost, not allowing DPP players to ban Iron Head or Snow Cloak + Snow Warning and of course this whole RBY Bo1 bullshit. Why? It only serves to make the tier worse for the people playing them, it does not alienate new players they don't care if the rules are """complex""". If a community of people who actively play the tier unanimously agree on some change that would improve the tier it makes little to no sense for a small group of people to shut it down and tell them no. What's the purpose? We're an insular community playing a made up fun format of Pokemon quit taking yourself so seriously and let the players decide what will be the most fun for them. (I'm not trying to start an argument about these separate issues but it does prove a greater point about the disconnect between TDs, tiering admins etc and the general wants/needs of playerbases.)

I could say a lot more about this but I don't want to rant too much, just revert this that's all that matters right now.

 

[Tobes]

As for edits the only things I edited out were a quote of a deleted post and a random shot at Finch’s grandmother (lol)

The post of yours that you’re referencing was deleted because it was hella inflammatory. If you want to call for a boycott that’s fine. I myself will not be signing up for SPL. If you want TDs to resign that is your right as well. But please try to keep things respectful.

It’s to be expected that my post was deleted, as a matter of course. I can accept that without batting an eye. What I find perplexing is the attitude that demands for resignation are to be delivered respectfully. A call for resignation is inherently a vote of no-confidence; with rare exceptions, respect is contradictory to the motion. These calls are not overzealous knee-jerks, either—the players who make these calls legitimately believe that they are warranted due to the gravity of the situation, and these voices should be heard even if you personally view them as inflammatory. Resignations are an organic part of the system and certainly not without precedent in cases like these. I have stated my reasons earlier in this thread for why I think demands for resignation here are justified, without vitriol or emotionality. Having seen the non-response from the TD team, I am now openly calling for resignations. I see no reason why I should be obligated to play nice when the TDs are refusing to engage in a basic dialogue, much less good faith argumentation.

 

[Monai]

It’s to be expected that my post was deleted, as a matter of course. I can accept that without batting an eye. What I find perplexing is the attitude that demands for resignation are to be delivered respectfully. A call for resignation is inherently a vote of no-confidence; with rare exceptions, respect is contradictory to the motion. These calls are not overzealous knee-jerks, either—the players who make these calls legitimately believe that they are warranted due to the gravity of the situation, and these voices should be heard even if you personally view them as inflammatory. Resignations are an organic part of the system and certainly not without precedent in cases like these. I have stated my reasons earlier in this thread for why I think demands for resignation here are justified, without vitriol or emotionality. Having seen the non-response from the TD team, I am now openly calling for resignations. I see no reason why I should be obligated to play nice when the TDs are refusing to engage in a basic dialogue, much less good faith argumentation.

I want to add that there should be a measure in place for ousting "authority" figures who have made such wildly undemocratic decisions. If TD's won't resign in shame, then they should be able to be replaced.

 

[Ortheore]

I'm going to also chime in to say removing Bo3 is awful and the way it's been handled is stupid. The idea that prep for rby is not minimal therefore it should be Bo1 just doesn't make sense, like are you implying any non-zero amount of prep is too much for Bo3? That's not only unfounded, it's directly contradicted by all evidence available. RBY has been Bo3 for years with no issue, and prior to that when Pokemon Perfect was at its peak we played Bo5

Otherwise there's no substantial reason that I can see being given for this other than trivial bullshit like consistency with other gens, which is far too superfluous to warrant a change in this manner. Or there are sweeping generalisations that ignore all context and detail. Regardless, this decision needs to be reversed and personnel changes made (I can't believe you'd double down after creating such a shitshow)

I do think there's an interesting conversation to be had about Bo1 vs Bo3 (or even Bo5 lol). It'd be nice if that had happened lol. Having said that, it also seems to me that there's no reason to change anything - rby is happy with Bo3, everyone else likes Bo1. Why would you mess with that?

 

[phoopes]

It’s to be expected that my post was deleted, as a matter of course. I can accept that without batting an eye. What I find perplexing is the attitude that demands for resignation are to be delivered respectfully. A call for resignation is inherently a vote of no-confidence; with rare exceptions, respect is contradictory to the motion. These calls are not overzealous knee-jerks, either—the players who make these calls legitimately believe that they are warranted due to the gravity of the situation, and these voices should be heard even if you personally view them as inflammatory. Resignations are an organic part of the system and certainly not without precedent in cases like these. I have stated my reasons earlier in this thread for why I think demands for resignation here are justified, without vitriol or emotionality. Having seen the non-response from the TD team, I am now openly calling for resignations. I see no reason why I should be obligated to play nice when the TDs are refusing to engage in a basic dialogue, much less good faith argumentation.

Off the top of my head I think there are three posts that I deleted that called for resignations.

One of them was laced with a lot of expletives and just very vitriolic in general. It’s easy to call for a resignation without giving off the vibes of “fuck you you incompetent piece of shit” so I deleted that one. Another was yours (which was just a one liner/pun) and the last one was a post that had a sentence of fluff and the word “resign” following.

I’m only deleting shit that really adds nothing productive to the conversation. Like I said if you want to call for a resignation that’s perfectly within your right. I just want people to understand that you can do so in a constructive manner that doesn’t belittle someone else.

—-

Overall I’m just one guy who’s trying his best to put out as many fires as he can because I care about what’s happening here. As I’ve said 100 times I don’t agree with the decision either. But I’m trying to be reasonable and not get Mad Online about it.

Please remember there’s real people behind the computer screen and that even if we care a lot, we’re arguing about a game. I know we want to get as much enjoyment out of the game we play as possible, but some things are not worth getting this upset over. Just trying to keep things healthy and not toxic.

 

[Tobes]

Off the top of my head I think there are three posts that I deleted that called for resignations.

One of them was laced with a lot of expletives and just very vitriolic in general. It’s easy to call for a resignation without giving off the vibes of “fuck you you incompetent piece of shit” so I deleted that one. Another was yours (which was just a one liner/pun) and the last one was a post that had a sentence of fluff and the word “resign” following.

I’m only deleting shit that really adds nothing productive to the conversation. Like I said if you want to call for a resignation that’s perfectly within your right. I just want people to understand that you can do so in a constructive manner that doesn’t belittle someone else.

—-

Overall I’m just one guy who’s trying his best to put out as many fires as he can because I care about what’s happening here. As I’ve said 100 times I don’t agree with the decision either. But I’m trying to be reasonable and not get Mad Online about it.

Please remember there’s real people behind the computer screen and that even if we care a lot, we’re arguing about a game. I know we want to get as much enjoyment out of the game we play as possible, but some things are not worth getting this upset over. Just trying to keep things healthy and not toxic.

I don’t hold your attempts at peacekeeping against you. What I would like to underscore is that a large portion of the playerbase feels actively disrespected by the actions and comportment of the TD team at this time. I think you’re well-intentioned for trying to keep a measure of civility, but I also think that you underestimate the view that the dismissive attitude / radar silence of the TD team is even more so toxic than the posts in this thread, and thus requests to refrain from meeting that level of toxicity may not be met well.

 

[Clas]

its 3am i want sleep, but.

who thought this was a good idea and why is it double-downed upon

not dragging this out bc enough has been said. Change for the sake of change is, was, and will always be shit. This very clearly had a very negative take, and has been responded in a way mirroring that of bottomless pit skull voids that we call most AAA studio producers; this is despite the community as a whole having otherwise spectacular communication, shown off daily and potentially hourly depending on where you look. When criticism like this occurs, you take a step back, own up, and listen to those who play your game, as they're the ones keeping it alive, and not instead spit in their face.

Merry Christmas, sort your shit out.

 

[spidget]

I think as a representative of the community, I speak for everyone when I say we stand with the TDs. They are doing thankless work only to be met with this hatred and cruelty. Also, this work is absolutely free, they have no obligation to appease your complaints so I’d suggest we let the appointed pros do their job. Keep BO1. Happy Holidays.

I am glad to see other representatives of the community stepping up to defend the TDs. If you are also part of the silent majority, please post in this thread to band together to support our beloved tournament directors, it's a thankless job and we need to start thanking! Stay positive friends and do not resort to shit slinging. It's a game we play for fun at the end of the day (:

 

[PDC]

there are 2 good options for the format of playing in spl. one is rby bo3 and the rest bo1, and the other is everything is turned into bo3. i believe rby to be a special case in terms of how it is played which warrants bo3. no other tier contains such level of uncompetitiveness whether it be due to matchup or tiering. turning every tier into a community vote over bo3/bo1 is imo a logistical and incoherent mess.

but i will also say that after reading some of these posts (emphasis on some) it seems like a lot of this is opportunistic outrage. as in, a lot of users being disproportionately angry so they can bandwagon hate on a select group of other users. it isn't everyday that you can tell the tds to go fuck themselves and have our posts bedazzled by 100 luvdiscs.

 

[phoopes]

I don’t hold your attempts at peacekeeping against you. What I would like to underscore is that a large portion of the playerbase feels actively disrespected by the actions and comportment of the TD team at this time. I think you’re well-intentioned for trying to keep a measure of civility, but I also think that you underestimate the view that the dismissive attitude / radar silence of the TD team is even more so toxic than the posts in this thread, and thus requests to refrain from meeting that level of toxicity may not be met well.

Yeah I get what you’re saying, I would just keep in mind (@ everyone) that the TD team is 9 people big. And with something this controversial they’re most likely going to want to come to a consensus when constructing a response so as to not misstep and say the wrong thing. This is probably why it took more than 24 hours to respond to this thread in the first place. Getting 9 people to all give input on an important message and then consolidate it all into one post is tough. Even if you disagree with the content of Merritt’s post I’m assuming that’s why there were no answers as soon as answers were demanded.

I understand that there’s frustration, I’ve been on the receiving end of it many times as a member of Senior Staff when it takes a long time to get shit done. I just ask that we all show a little grace to our fellow volunteers, even if you’re not happy with them in the moment.

 

[Merritt]

Hi all.

Following significant discussions with the TD team, we will be implementing the following:

All matchups during SPL will be by default a bo1 series.

For RBY only, considering its historical status, players may agree to have it be a best-of-three series prior to the game beginning. This must be confirmed by both players by challenging in the format "[Gen 1] Best of 3 OU" (or similar) which will display an automated message to denote the series as a best-of-three.

This agreement will be enforced. Attempts to renege on these agreements will be ruled the same as falsifying results.

Thank you.

 

[Sabelette]

The recent “compromise” by the TDs is not a compromise at all and is a far worse outcome for all involved. Allowing players to force BO1 (because most will want BO3) is a terrible choice competitively and is an absolutely ridiculous decision. Someone looking to cheese their opponent can force BO1 and fish for a lucky win, and the fact that the TDs are allowing a random number of games per week means that the supposed “consistency” they wanted was never really the concern, because this is way less consistent than just forcing BO3! I really truly cannot tell if this is incompetence or malice anymore. I’m trying to go home for christmas so I don’t have time to lay out the thousand other problems here but this is just a horrific mistake. If you wanted to convince me to support BO1 by somehow finding an even worse format, good job.