Battle Spot Kanto Classic - This feels like Stadium

[Lady Vader]

The second I saw that there would be an official 6v6 tournament on Battle Spot to celebrate the 20th anniversary of Pokémon (I feel old...), I was all over that. Especially at how they are trying to recapture the feeling of Generation I the best you can on a Generation VI game.

Team Preview

Dragonite
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Earthquake
- Extreme Speed

Dragonite was the first Pokémon I thought about as what makes it good isn't whatever item it holds. It can usually set up a Dragon Dance without getting KOed, which allows it to sweep easily. I am going with Earthquake as many Pokémon from Kanto are part Poison-type and Extreme Speed is to pick off weakened foes that I don't want to risk dying to.

Alakazam
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psyshock
- Protect
- Disable
- Encore

Alakazam was one of the strongest Pokémon in RBY and is still a force to be reckoned with. It's primary purpose is to stop Clefable as it is one of the biggest threats in the meta. Psyshock has great mono-coverage (only have to worry about other Psychics and Magneton), Protect, Disable, and Encore allows me to systematically pick apart any moveset I want.

Gyarados
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Waterfall
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake

This is a beast. An absolute beast. One Dragon Dance is all it needs to start wrecking everything and even without a Dragon Dance, it is still a threat thanks to Moxie. Waterfall is the standard STAB, with Stone Edge and Earthquake being powerful cover moves. Did I mention it is a beast?

Clefable
Ability: Unaware
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Minimize
- Moonlight

Clefable might be the deadliest, most annoying Pokémon in this meta. Between Unaware screwing over setup sweepers, Calm Mind increasing its damage output and Special bulk, Minimize making it difficult to hit, and Moonlight healing itself (without Rain or Sand to hinder it), it is a evil 'mon to face. I went with Moonblast over Stored Power since immediate power plus STAB makes it a better choice.​

Nidoqueen
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 HP / 84 Def / 172 SpD
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- Sludge Wave
- Ice Beam
- Stealth Rock

As I said before, I looked at Pokémon that didn't 100% require an item. Nidoqueen mostly fills that slot. Sheer Force combined with Nidoqueen's great Special movepool allows her to hit many threats and hit them fairly hard, even without investment. Earth Power and Sludge Wave are powerful STABs and Ice Beam lets her hit Dragonite hard. Stealth Rock is there as it is always useful to have Stealth Rock. Unless you are playing 1v1, in which case it isn't, but that's neither here nor there.

Snorlax
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Body Slam
- Crunch
- Rest
- Sleep Talk​

"Finally, I'm on my two feet! Now it is time to wreck things!"
To round off my team and to help tank hits aimed my way, and with naturally high HP, Atk, and Sp. Def, I thought Snorlax would be a good choice. Thick Fat is to maximize damage as well as the fact that Rest heals status and health, making Immunity a less useful choice. Sleep Talk is there to keep things going, even on the two turns I'm asleep thanks to Rest. Body Slam is the always useful STAB, especially against Minimize Clefairy and Crunch provides perfect coverage in this meta, as well as hitting the dangerous Gengar and Alakazam for super-effective damage.

So that's my team. Thanks for any help and I hope to battle some of you in the tournament.

Team Changes:
v1: Dragonite / Alakazam / Gyarados / Arcanine / Nidoking / Chansey
v2: Dragonite / Alakazam / Gyarados / Clefable / Nidoking / Chansey
v3: Dragonite / Alakazam / Gyarados / Clefable / Nidoqueen / Chansey
v4: Dragonite / Alakazam / Gyarados / Clefable / Nidoqueen / Snorlax

FINAL RESULTS:

Battle Box:

Peak Rating: 1,755 (Battle 26)
Final Rating: 1,717
Wins: 23
Losses: 7
Final Placing: 300th (out of 32,220 trainers)

Goals:
15 Wins
20 Wins
25 Wins
30 Wins

Gyarados ended up being my premiere sweeper, outperforming Dragonite (though Dragonite got me some wins) including one match where it was the only Pokemon I used. Clefable was an amazing addition as it pulled many situations from a loss to a 2-0 or 1-0 victory. Also, it seemed many people were unaware of, well, Unaware, wasting turns setting up instead of attacking. Nidoqueen, while usually spending most of the tournament knocked out, proved to be a wise addition as her Stealth Rocks often crippled my opponent, though I feel like I should have picked Thunderbolt as it was more useful. Snorlax proved an odd ‘mon as it managed to sweep a few times just by outlasting thanks to RestTalk, as well as getting lucky with Sleep Talk against Gengar a few times. The Pokemon that proved the least useful was my Alakazam as being limited to Psyshock (as well as the amazing rarity of opposing Clefables) caused it to be of a more limited use, though it proved itself many times and I am glad I had it with me.

The biggest threats turned out to be Slowbro (especially if I lost my Clefable) and Gengar. The number of my ‘mons that got knocked out due to Destiny Bond is far higher than I would have liked. Also, Gengar proved to be the best counter for Clefable thanks to Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, and STAB Sludge Wave. Another surprising threat was Machamp, though it was less of one thanks to Clefairy’s Moonblast and Alakazam’s Psyshock. A Machamp would have been a good choice, though, since the large number of Snorlax made it very viable.

This was an amazingly fun tournament. Being able to play against only the original 151...well, 149, was just great, though nothing topped being able to play a 6v6 Singles format on my handheld against random people in an official tournament. There were some odd quirks (the number of Charizards was amazing, especially as each one lost 50% of their HP against me and there one only one Rapid Spinner, which I faced in my final match), but it was a great experience. Also, I am quite happy with my performance. A 77% win rate is nothing to sneeze at and it is way better than I did in the International Challenge last June. And, like Joey's super cool Rattata, I'm in the top percentile, getting 300th place out of over 32,000 trainers from around the world.

Special thanks to:
NOVED for suggesting Clefable and some minor (but important changes).
cant say for suggesting Snorlax, who earned me several wins.
Omastar68 for suggesting Nidoqueen, working with me on damage calcs, and discussing other ideas.
My team wouldn’t have been as good without any of you. Thank you.

 

[NOVED]

Cool team man. I like the idea of running 2 DDers. Theres some changes I think could help you out.

First of all, in a lot of games, your plan is going to be to take out Clefables. Dragonite and Gyarados are two of your main win conditions and Unaware Clefable really screws them both. You already have two good checks in Nidoking and Arcanine but I think adding another would help. There's been an Alakazam set thats gotten really popular so far and it really screws up Clefable. It utilizes protect/disable/encore. In this meta, mono psychic coverage is actually pretty sweet so Zam can afford to run these moves to disrupt some mons and avoid sucker punches. You can either lock Clefables into Moonlight/CM or just disable their Moonblast since they normally only run 1 attack. I'd recommend you at least give it a shot, it's super good and gives you another thing to handle pesky clefables. This is the set:
Alakazam
Ability: Magic Guard
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psyshock
- Protect
- Disable
- Encore

I would try to fit rocks on Nidoking or Chansey. Rock is really useful in 6v6, especially when using 2 set up sweepers. The chip damage will definitely be useful. I think flamethrower is probably the least useful move on Nidoking and maybe Toxic on Chansey. Nidoking is usually so offensive that it doesnt want to set up rocks, but using it for rocks one turn may be better than just replacing a pokemon on your team simply for reliable rocks. Nido does scare out a lot of things so you could get a free turn for rocks when they switch out.

On Dnite, I think extreme speed would be beneficial over roost. Espeed can come in clutch if you just need dnite to revengekill something like Zam or a weakened DD mon. Even though you already have espeed on arcanine, it doenst hurt to have 2 pokes with it cause its such a great move. You should also consider Outrage. Outrage is really good since the only notable fairy is Clefable, and you wont be setting up when theres a clefable around anyway. And the only steel is magnezone and that can be handled prior to DDing. Outrage is really strong and works a lot better than DClaw in the late game. Not an important change like Espeed but just another move to consider.

On gyarados, I think Stone Edge is a solid move over Crunch or EQ. I really think Stone Edge is good to KO Zapdos after rocks and Dragonite. The accuracy is a little shaky but the coverage is great.

And on gyarados and Dnite, you should run Jolly nature to outspeed Jolteon and Aerodactyl after DD.

You may want to consider Twave on Chansey over Toxic as well. (If you dont opt to use Stealth Rock on it at least) Because your team looks like it could become overrun by some fast offensive mons like Alakazam and Aerodactyl if you let your pokes get too weakened. Aerodactyl looks incredibly threatening actually. You might even want to consider replacing a poke here for something much more defensive like Slowbro or Max Def Clefable. Clefable might be okay over Arcanine, I feel thats the most expendable pokemon on the team. And if you were to use Slowbro, Gyarados might be the best mon to replace just do you dont stack two water types. Clefable is probably the best pokemon in this meta as well so its never a bad idea to run that. This is the best Clef set being run atm(imo):
Clefable
Ability: Unaware
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Minimize
- Moonlight

You can also run Stored Power over Moonblast but I think Moonblast would be better in your case so you can just immediately start dishing out damage if need be. You could also use Thunder Wave over Minimize but Minimize makes Clefable pretty deadly.

Also, you probably want to make sure your EVs are set with Level 50, since this is a Battle Spot competiton. At level 50, stats only move up every 8 EVs so 244 EVs give you the same number as 248 EVs, so its just a waste to use 248. An easy way to tell if your EVs are good is by setting your pokemon to level 50 in the teambuilder on showdown. Oh and your Nidoking EVs look a little messed up, im sure it was a mistake there or something but yeah, you should probably just invest the rest of your EVs into speed if you didnt already.

I hope some of these help you out man. :) I love how you set up the sprites btw, looks sick.

 

[Lady Vader]

In this meta, mono psychic coverage is actually pretty sweet...
Alakazam
Ability: Magic Guard
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Psyshock
- Protect
- Disable
- Encore

It's funny how I forget how powerful Psychic is within Generation I 'mons as the only things I have to worry about are other Psychics and Magneton. I'm still not sure about it as I do prefer my revenge killer coverage set, but I will try this.

I would try to fit rocks on Nidoking or Chansey. Rock is really useful in 6v6, especially when using 2 set up sweepers. The chip damage will definitely be useful. I think flamethrower is probably the least useful move on Nidoking and maybe Toxic on Chansey. Nidoking is usually so offensive that it doesnt want to set up rocks, but using it for rocks one turn may be better than just replacing a pokemon on your team simply for reliable rocks. Nido does scare out a lot of things so you could get a free turn for rocks when they switch out...Oh and your Nidoking EVs look a little messed up, im sure it was a mistake there or something but yeah, you should probably just invest the rest of your EVs into speed if you didnt already.

Hmm...I might try using Rocks, though I would have to breed a new Nidoking for that purpose as the listed one is my Poison team's Nido. And yeah, it should say 252 Speed, but I changed it on the post manually and only changed HP (the set I had on Showdown was incorrect).

On Dnite, I think extreme speed would be beneficial over roost. Espeed can come in clutch if you just need dnite to revengekill something like Zam or a weakened DD mon. Even though you already have espeed on arcanine, it doenst hurt to have 2 pokes with it cause its such a great move. You should also consider Outrage. Outrage is really good since the only notable fairy is Clefable, and you wont be setting up when theres a clefable around anyway. And the only steel is magnezone and that can be handled prior to DDing. Outrage is really strong and works a lot better than DClaw in the late game. Not an important change like Espeed but just another move to consider.

I've been personally debating myself about Extreme Speed over Roost. I think I will. Thank Arceus that I already have a Marvel Scale Dratini with Extreme Speed. I'm not much of a fan of Outrage (I never was, even in Generation V), but I really should consider it as the only two 'mons I have to really worry about are Clefable and Magneton (who is going to use Wigglytuff?).

On gyarados, I think Stone Edge is a solid move over Crunch or EQ. I really think Stone Edge is good to KO Zapdos after rocks and Dragonite. The accuracy is a little shaky but the coverage is great.

And on gyarados and Dnite, you should run Jolly nature to outspeed Jolteon and Aerodactyl after DD.

Yeah, Stone Edge is a definite change. I forgot that Gyara can use it and it pairs up better with the other 'mons.

And Jolly is needed more.

You may want to consider Twave on Chansey over Toxic as well. (If you dont opt to use Stealth Rock on it at least) Because your team looks like it could become overrun by some fast offensive mons like Alakazam and Aerodactyl if you let your pokes get too weakened. Aerodactyl looks incredibly threatening actually. You might even want to consider replacing a poke here for something much more defensive like Slowbro or Max Def Clefable. Clefable might be okay over Arcanine, I feel thats the most expendable pokemon on the team. And if you were to use Slowbro, Gyarados might be the best mon to replace just do you dont stack two water types. Clefable is probably the best pokemon in this meta as well so its never a bad idea to run that. This is the best Clef set being run atm(imo):
Clefable
Ability: Unaware
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast
- Minimize
- Moonlight

You can also run Stored Power over Moonblast but I think Moonblast would be better in your case so you can just immediately start dishing out damage if need be. You could also use Thunder Wave over Minimize but Minimize makes Clefable pretty deadly.

I just swaped out Thunder Wave for Toxic...I guess I'll change it back, though I might be rebreeding some of my Level 100 'mons so I can get better EV spreads without messing up my OU 'mons.
I might try out Clefable instead of Arcanine as Minimize is very tempting

I love how you set up the sprites btw, looks sick.

Thanks, both for liking my sprite set-up and for the help. I'm definitively going to try out some of these.

EDIT: Tried them. It works much better. Thank you a lot.

 

[cant say]

Feel free to change the thread tag to 'Battle Spot' since it is a BS competition after all...

First of all, I think Iron Head over Earthquake on Dragonite is really good here, as EQ's only target is Magneton, and that's covered quite well in your team by Nidoking and Chansey. Iron Head is used so Clef isn't a hard counter to Dragonite, and although you won't get the 2HKO with Jolly, you could still flinch it or finish off a weakened one.

I'm kinda worried about your matchup against Alakazam, especially the Disable+Encore one that NOVED was talking about. It 2-3HKOes your whole team so nothing can switch in on it, meaning you need to sack something before killing it. Both Dragonite and Gyarados can Dragon Dance infront of it and OHKO, but any good Zam user would switch to their Clef in that situation. I think the best way to go about this is replace Chansey with Snorlax. Big Lax can tank a move from Zam and OHKO it with either Body Slam or Crunch, so it doesn't fear being Encored, and it deals with Clefable really well by either Body Slamming Minimize varients, Whirlwinding Calm Minders (also Minimizes), or going for broke with Fissure. Here's the set I've been having fun with:

Snorlax
Ability: Thick Fat
252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Body Slam
- Fissure / Earthquake
- Crunch / Whirlwind
- Rest / Whirlwind

If you want to hit Magneton (and Golem / Rhydon) then use EQ, otherwise Fissure is so clutch. Crunch for Gengar, and Rest for longevity.

Of course you lose the support of Aromatherapy, but apart from that I think Snorlax would be a great fit. Maybe you could try Lapras over Gyarados lol

edit: HOLY SHIT so many typos thanks phone

 

[Omastar68]

A spread of 4/252/252 maximizes Chansey's bulk. Why the 12 in SpD instead of max HP on yours? Also, it's nice to have a fighting type such as Machamp or Primeape. Since you have a bit of a Stealth Rock weakness and no spinner maybe you could drop Gyara.

I'd use Nidoqueen over Nidoking. King's main niche is Sucker Punch, and more Atk in general, and the higher Spe counts for little since King is still a little on the slow side for an offensive Poke. The extra SpA doesn't count for much either, since Queen is still quite powerful and gets many of the same OHKOs and 2HKOs. I did some calcs with the two of them I posted in another thread, I can refer you to those if you still have doubts, though I'll have to change some stuff cause that was for regular BSS.

Also, you can cut eight Spe EVs from Gyara and still outspeed positive base 130s. You lose the speed tie w/ other +1 Spe Jolly Gyara tho, so idk if it's worth it.

 

[Lady Vader]

A spread of 4/252/252 maximizes Chansey's bulk. Why the 12 in SpD instead of max HP on yours? Also, it's nice to have a fighting type such as Machamp or Primeape. Since you have a bit of a Stealth Rock weakness and no spinner maybe you could drop Gyara.

I'd use Nidoqueen over Nidoking. King's main niche is Sucker Punch, and more Atk in general, and the higher Spe counts for little since King is still a little on the slow side for an offensive Poke. The extra SpA doesn't count for much either, since Queen is still quite powerful and gets many of the same OHKOs and 2HKOs. I did some calcs with the two of them I posted in another thread, I can refer you to those if you still have doubts, though I'll have to change some stuff cause that was for regular BSS.

Also, you can cut eight Spe EVs from Gyara and still outspeed positive base 130s. You lose the speed tie w/ other +1 Spe Jolly Gyara tho, so idk if it's worth it.

Yeah, you can give me the damage calcs.

 

[Omastar68]

:) Alright lol.

Hide

252 SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Nidoqueen: 156-186 (79.1 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Nidoqueen: 156-186 (79.1 - 94.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 182-216 (92.3 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nidoking: 174-206 (111.5 - 132%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam: 93-109 (71.5 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lot of calcs just for Zam, but it's an important Poke. Nidoqueen has a fairly reasonable chance to survive Psychic, and is basically bound to survive Psyshock, which is the sole attack on some Zams. King, meanwhile, is trashed by either psychic STAB, and yours isn't Sucker Punch to(partially,) make up for this.

252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nidoking: 180-212 (115.3 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Nidoqueen: 164-194 (83.2 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Nidoqueen: 164-194 (83.2 - 98.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Sheer Force Nidoqueen Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 204-244 (120 - 143.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Neither Nido is great against Gyara, but at least Queen has a chance vs ones that aren't boosted yet. She's still strong enough to OHKO w/ T-Bolt(without T-Bolt both only 2HKO even with Stealth Rocks on the opponent's side,) even if you cut back on SpA investment. 0 SpA is an OHKO on Gyara after SR damage.

252 Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nidoking: 144-170 (92.3 - 108.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 112-132 (67.4 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Nidoqueen: 130-154 (65.9 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0+ SpA Sheer Force Nidoqueen Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 156-184 (93.9 - 110.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Nidoqueen: 194-230 (98.4 - 116.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

King is more than likely to die to an unboosted EQ, and can only OHKO back if Marvel Scale is broken. Queen lives with a decent amount of health to spare, and essentially does the same damage as King in this situation-they both just need MS broken to get the OHKO.

Hope that's enough calcs, it's time consuming to get them and I think this gives a good picture.

Queen reaches 96 Spe while your King reaches 137, but neither are that fast anyways, so I vastly favor the bulk if I'm using it for setting rocks.

 

[Lady Vader]

:) Alright lol.

Hide

252 SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Nidoqueen: 156-186 (79.1 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Nidoqueen: 156-186 (79.1 - 94.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Nidoqueen: 182-216 (92.3 - 109.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nidoking: 174-206 (111.5 - 132%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Alakazam: 93-109 (71.5 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Lot of calcs just for Zam, but it's an important Poke. Nidoqueen has a fairly reasonable chance to survive Psychic, and is basically bound to survive Psyshock, which is the sole attack on some Zams. King, meanwhile, is trashed by either psychic STAB, and yours isn't Sucker Punch to(partially,) make up for this.

252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nidoking: 180-212 (115.3 - 135.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Nidoqueen: 164-194 (83.2 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Nidoqueen: 164-194 (83.2 - 98.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ SpA Sheer Force Nidoqueen Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 204-244 (120 - 143.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Neither Nido is great against Gyara, but at least Queen has a chance vs ones that aren't boosted yet. She's still strong enough to OHKO w/ T-Bolt(without T-Bolt both only 2HKO even with Stealth Rocks on the opponent's side,) even if you cut back on SpA investment. 0 SpA is an OHKO on Gyara after SR damage.

252 Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nidoking: 144-170 (92.3 - 108.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

252+ SpA Sheer Force Nidoking Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 112-132 (67.4 - 79.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Nidoqueen: 130-154 (65.9 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0+ SpA Sheer Force Nidoqueen Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dragonite: 156-184 (93.9 - 110.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Nidoqueen: 194-230 (98.4 - 116.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

King is more than likely to die to an unboosted EQ, and can only OHKO back if Marvel Scale is broken. Queen lives with a decent amount of health to spare, and essentially does the same damage as King in this situation-they both just need MS broken to get the OHKO.

Hope that's enough calcs, it's time consuming to get them and I think this gives a good picture.

Queen reaches 96 Spe while your King reaches 137, but neither are that fast anyways, so I vastly favor the bulk if I'm using it for setting rocks.

You've convinced me that I need to at least try her out. What would your suggested moveset/EV spread be (hopefully a Modest nature as it would be way faster to breed)?

 

[Omastar68]

I think Modest is best, though you should play around with the damage calc. I just used a simple spread for the calcs, but you probably want to start with Spe. No Spe Nidoqueen is slow, but a few EVs may let you get the jump on some foes, so you'd want them. After that consider what Pokes your team has trouble with, and try to EV to survive their strongest attacks. Some things like Zam's Psyshock and DNite's EQ you definitely want to be able to survive, so make sure you can live those before anything less common.

Make sure to test stuff out on PS before breeding it-that saves time. Glad I convinced you on Queen, and I'll try and make you an EV spread later, just tell me what Pokes most bother you after any other changes you want to make to your team based on what others have said.

 

[Lady Vader]

Well, I've done some calcs of my own, just to see something:
(All Numbers on Nidoqueen are minimum to survive minus crits and hazards):
252+ SpA Alakazam Psychic vs. 252 HP / 172 SpD Nidoqueen: 164-194 (83.2 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 44 Def Nidoqueen: 164-194 (83.2 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(I do doubt Modest Alakazams will be common, but still)
252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 144-170 (73 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Nidoqueen: 166-196 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Again, Adamant Dragonite might be rare since it enjoys that boost to Speed more. I'm not going to prepare for a +1 Adamant Dragonite as that just sucks up all of my potential offensive presence.

After some basic testing on the damage calcs, a spread of 252 HP / 156 Def / 84 SpD will make me safe from Timid 'Zam's Psychic and a +1 Jolly Dragonite's EQ, which leaves me with 16 EVs for Special Attack, which I don't know if it will be enough.

When it comes to movepool, I'm a little stuck on possibilities:
With Stealth Rock, I only have three slots left. Sludge Wave is a given since I don't want to worry about Clefable, but then I have two slots, but three good moves: Earth Power (STAB + good against Magneton, which are common), Thunderbolt (to OHKO Gyara), and Ice Beam (to OHKO Dragonite). Should I stick with Sludge Wave, Earth Power, and Ice Beam or should I replace EP or Ice Beam with Thunderbolt?

One of the big threats I can see is Snorlax, which I have little to stop.

 

[Omastar68]

There aren't any Pokes a few Spe EVs on Queen won't outspeed? Oh well. Anyways, I'm thinking Counter over Ice Beam/T-Bolt, would be a good idea, taking care of both Gyara and DNite, as well as a few other things. It takes advantage of the fact Queen can't afford to invest much in SpA, and with only STABs for attacks it may even be a good idea to go Bold/Calm.

That's not to say I'm sure on Counter, I'll test it out and see how that goes. Although Counter also gets Snorlax, so even if it doesn't work out for me it may still be a good idea for you.

EDIT: +2 252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 84 Def Nidoqueen: 144-171 (73 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Really nice calcs on this girl thus far. She lives stuff like Zam's Psychic and Starmie's Hydro Pump even after rocks. Neither of the should be doing Modest, so there's that. There's no list for Kanto Classic Speed Tiers, do you know if there's anything common that's just barely faster than 96 Spe? If there is and I(we,) can run just a few EVs to outspeed said threat, and if it's just a little it won't compromise bulk.

 

[Lady Vader]

I've never been a big fan of Counter as at least the other moves would do damage if I make an incorrect prediction.

I just looked, and the Pokémon who are close in base speed as Nidoqueen are mostly from later Generations (most of which aren't good, with the exceptions of Mega Scizor and Mega Heracross, both of which are slower anyway by 1 Base Point) or are near unusable Kanto 'mons (Beedrill, Kingler). The closest three Kanto 'mons who are faster I could see are the uncommon Blastoise (Base 78 to 'queen's 76), Dragonite (Base 80) and Gyarados (Base 81), but as those will have 252 Speed investment let alone Dragon Dance (as well as likely having a Jolly nature). So unless we want to make it faster than a Hitmonchan (who is exactly the same speed), investing anything in Speed is a waste of time for Nidoqueen.

When it comes to fighting Snorlax, one thought that came to mind was replacing Chansey with an old friend of mine: Primeape. He has never let me down, even when I was facing a team made up of 50% (Good) Legendaries in Random Battles. His Atk and Speed are rather good, has STAB Close Combat, plus great coverage moves like Earthquake, Ice Punch, and Gunk Shot for Clefable (though Poison Jab might be a better choice due to Minimize). Actually, let me do some damage calcs on Clefable while I'm thinking about it...

Oh...that's not good.
252 Atk Primeape Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 104-124 (51.4 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Primeape Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 70-84 (34.6 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Primeape Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 114-136 (56.4 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Primeape Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 78-92 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primeape: 138-164 (98.5 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Yeah...Primeape can only take out a weakened Clefable and MUST hit.

 

[Omastar68]

I've never been a big fan of Counter as at least the other moves would do damage if I make an incorrect prediction.

I just looked, and the Pokémon who are close in base speed as Nidoqueen are mostly from later Generations (most of which aren't good, with the exceptions of Mega Scizor and Mega Heracross, both of which are slower anyway by 1 Base Point) or are near unusable Kanto 'mons (Beedrill, Kingler). The closest three Kanto 'mons who are faster I could see are the uncommon Blastoise (Base 78 to 'queen's 76), Dragonite (Base 80) and Gyarados (Base 81), but as those will have 252 Speed investment let alone Dragon Dance (as well as likely having a Jolly nature). So unless we want to make it faster than a Hitmonchan (who is exactly the same speed), investing anything in Speed is a waste of time for Nidoqueen.

When it comes to fighting Snorlax, one thought that came to mind was replacing Chansey with an old friend of mine: Primeape. He has never let me down, even when I was facing a team made up of 50% (Good) Legendaries in Random Battles. His Atk and Speed are rather good, has STAB Close Combat, plus great coverage moves like Earthquake, Ice Punch, and Gunk Shot for Clefable (though Poison Jab might be a better choice due to Minimize). Actually, let me do some damage calcs on Clefable while I'm thinking about it...

Oh...that's not good.
252 Atk Primeape Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 104-124 (51.4 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Primeape Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 70-84 (34.6 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Primeape Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 114-136 (56.4 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Primeape Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 78-92 (38.6 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primeape: 138-164 (98.5 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Yeah...Primeape can only take out a weakened Clefable and MUST hit.

Yikes, I run Primeape and it's kinda good, but definitely not for Clef. It takes some prediction to pull off right, for instance, you probably wanna run U-Turn, the, if you think the foe will switch to a psychic to eat your CC you hit it SE and score momentum.

Thx for checking on Spe, that's about what I that but good to know. I'm not sure on Counter. On the one hand, DNite and Gyara shouldn't feel comfortable setting up on you when you're liable to have a move to OHKO either one(and if they have set up its to late for a Queen anyways.) It also gets Snorlax that's boosted(unboosted does little enough a Counter won't OHKO,) and Dugtrio's EQ and stuff like that. I don't think there's really a right answer for Counter or T-Bolt/ Ice Beam, at least not until I see for myself.

I like Primeape, and you can definitely toss out Chansey, but perhaps Snorlax may be a better fit over it, since it's also a normal type, and compounds no weaknesses(Primeape compounds fairy and psychic.)

EDIT: I'm leaning towards 252 HP/ 84 Def/ 172 SpD Bold for Queen. You still 2HKO Clef, and you know live some really strong attacks, while not minding some OHKOs you lose.

Here are calcs:

Hide

0 SpA Sheer Force Nidoqueen Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Jolteon: 110-132 (78 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 172 SpD Nidoqueen: 58-70 (29.4 - 35.5%) -- 16.3% chance to 3HKO

Weird one to start with, but it shows losing the OHKO on Jolteon isn't too huge.

+1 252 Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 84+ Def Nidoqueen: 186-222 (94.4 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Not an amazing chance to survive, but way better than zero.

+1 252 Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 84 Def Nidoqueen: 180-212 (91.3 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

+1 252 Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 84+ Def Nidoqueen: 164-194 (83.2 - 98.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 84+ Def Nidoqueen: 164-194 (83.2 - 98.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Bold has a highee chance to survive +1 EQ after rocks than Modest has w/o rocks.

+1 252+ Atk Snorlax Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 84+ Def Nidoqueen: 158-186 (80.2 - 94.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Snorlax Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 84 Def Nidoqueen: 170-202 (86.2 - 102.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Snorlax Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 84 Def Nidoqueen: 170-202 (86.2 - 102.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Snorlax Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 84+ Def Nidoqueen: 158-186 (80.2 - 94.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+3 252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 84+ Def Nidoqueen: 166-196 (84.2 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Really only need the last calc here. Surviving +3 STAB Body Slam off fully invested base 110 Atk...that's definitely something. On paper Queen doesn't look this bulky. Beauty of investment.

Just gonna stop here, probably enough. Do let me know if you find a better spread though.
[\Hide]

 

[Lady Vader]

That set for Nidoqueen seems good. I've already have tested it once and it seems to be working, but there are many more tests to go.
Well then, what's a good set for Snorlax?

EDIT:
Here's my first attempt at a Snorlax:
Snorlax
Ability: Thick Fat
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Body Slam
- Crunch
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Body Slam is STAB and deadly against Minimize Clefable, Crunch is for Alakazam, Starmie, Slowbro, and whatever other Psychics might come up. And they have good coverage. And then I round it off with the always classic RestTalk combo. Combined with Thick Fat, it should take hits very well. The only thing I'm not sure on is the EV spread, but this is a first draft, so I'm fine.

 

[cant say]

There aren't any Pokes a few Spe EVs on Queen won't outspeed? Oh well. Anyways, I'm thinking Counter over Ice Beam/T-Bolt, would be a good idea, taking care of both Gyara and DNite, as well as a few other things. It takes advantage of the fact Queen can't afford to invest much in SpA, and with only STABs for attacks it may even be a good idea to go Bold/Calm.

That's not to say I'm sure on Counter, I'll test it out and see how that goes. Although Counter also gets Snorlax, so even if it doesn't work out for me it may still be a good idea for you.

EDIT: +2 252+ Atk Snorlax Body Slam vs. 252 HP / 84 Def Nidoqueen: 144-171 (73 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Really nice calcs on this girl thus far. She lives stuff like Zam's Psychic and Starmie's Hydro Pump even after rocks. Neither of the should be doing Modest, so there's that. There's no list for Kanto Classic Speed Tiers, do you know if there's anything common that's just barely faster than 96 Spe? If there is and I(we,) can run just a few EVs to outspeed said threat, and if it's just a little it won't compromise bulk.

Counter is bad man. As soon as they see it they're just gonna keep DDing on you. Just use Nidoqueen for hitting stuff really hard with Sheer Force-boosted attacks!

Also, No Guard Machamp over Primeape any day

 

[Omastar68]

Counter is bad man. As soon as they see it they're just gonna keep DDing on you. Just use Nidoqueen for hitting stuff really hard with Sheer Force-boosted attacks!

Also, No Guard Machamp over Primeape any day

Do you ever not hate Counter :P It's not like it's my main attack(and 0 SpA Nidoqueen isn't much of an attacker anyways,) it's for surprise KOs. I had an ugly incident where this DNite DDd on me instead of using EQ, but the next turn it used Outrage, even knowing I had Counter, and it wasn't enough to KO(+1 EQ isn't enough from full health, but I was weakened, guess he predicted an EQ immune switch.)

I'm not saying that I think Ice Beam/T-Bolt instead is wrong, but I do think they're both viable options.

I grudgingly agree that Machamp is generally better than Primeape, however Primeape is still viable, and has a Vital Spirit so Venomoth can't put your whole team to sleep. Acrobatics is quite nice in this meta, and it has quite a few other options, including a faster Encore than Machamp. One problem though is it's worthless against boosted Snorlax, while Machamp can confuse it on top of doing good damage and being more resilient in general.