Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]

[LordRandomness]

A mega pokemon should be worth = (1 pokemon) + (1 pokemon's item slot power) + (risk invoved in mega evolution speed increasing turn)

Parental bond itself, a 1.5x multiplier, is the equivalent of being Choice Banded without actually being choiced.
Take parental bond out of the equation and we are left with Mega Kangaskhan's base stats and movepool.

Risk involved in mega evolution speed increasing turn: (this is one of Mega Gengar's and Mega Alakazam's problems) there is little to none. You could be running fake out for a free turn, or power up punch to threaten out a ghost type. Kang also has the bulk to survive a hit easily, so there is vitually no risk. Also normal Khan at 80 speed is usually fastish enough for the first turn it comes out (remember you can choose when to bring it in).
So taking that out, we simply need to evaluate Mega Khan's movepool and stats relative to the average pokemon. If you take parental bond vs choice band out of the equation, then Mega Khan has a 47 BP fighting type Swords Dance, sucker punch for priority, fake out for free damage, crunch, EQ, drain punch, elemental punches incoming... Mega khan's movepool and stats are just much better than the usual OU pokemon =/

That's why I call uber.

Not necessarily. If a Mega pokemon is worth, say, 1.2 times that, that just increases the power of the average team by 0.2. There's nothing inherently wrong with that, all it does is force everyone to use their Mega slot which given the number of Mega pokemon isn't necessarily a disaster. I guess the question becomes whether making everyone use their mega slot is bad policy, and whether Mega Kanga is strong enough even for that slot that it'll dominate it.

That still doesn't warrant it being treated differently for tiering purposes. It may as well be "you can use a legendary, but only one per team also you can't use items on them". If something's broken, it's broken.

What would that actually DO to the metagame, anyway? Would it ruin it in some way?

 

[Chou Toshio]

Well, because you can only use one per team. There's no "we'd better send them all to Uber because otherwise people will use nothing but them and the metagame will go stale" argument, because people CAN'T. I don't see why the mega slot shouldn't potentially be a BIT stronger, although obviously anything overwhelmingly strong FOR the slot should go and too much stronger leads to overcentralizing issues and so forth.

You completely ignored my post and the main argument around this point of discussion that has been frequently repeated: The "cost" for using a Mega Evolution is negligible-- it's so insignificant, it's not really worth acknowledging; certainly not compared to the problem.

Why restrict it to one per battle then? I'm not saying anyone knows for certain what Gamefreak's reasoning behind this is, but if it was just about having as many fancy suped up Pokemon, why not just have six megas? The cost of having Mega Kangaskhan means you have to forgo every other mega. Overall, I like the idea of megas. Having one powerful Pokemon that's clearly more powerful than the other five. I wasn't really saying that Kangaskhan is guaranteed to take out two Pokemon. It frequently does.. but it's skill dependent. Sometimes it doesn't even take out one depending upon how my opponent uses it. Just that I generally have to use two Pokemon working together to beat it. eg. One to Wilo-Wisp and one to finish it off, or one to sacrifice with rocky helmet, then another to revenge kill it. That's generally along the lines of what happens.

But what you're not getting is if 1 Pokemon is significantly better than others, it can lead to teams being broken down much more easily-- which completely disrupts the dynamics of a Pokemon battle. If one enemy Pokemon is powerful to the point it's almost guaranteed to take down several others, it will often decide the whole game right there. You're ignoring the fact that with such a game dynamic, the ability to win via skill is trounced.

In a meta where 1 Pokemon easily busts through several others just because it's better the game isn't about skill-- it's about who is lucky enough to find a chance to smash the other side first.

The proof is in the pudding-- just play on the ladder watch games, and I guarantee you'll be disgusted at how many games there are where the OBVIOUSLY better player (completely outplaying the opponent) loses just because of a lucky Mega Kang sweep.

 

[Tachnicla]

Why restrict it to one per battle then? I'm not saying anyone knows for certain what Gamefreak's reasoning behind this is, but if it was just about having as many fancy suped up Pokemon, why not just have six megas? The cost of having Mega Kangaskhan means you have to forgo every other mega. Overall, I like the idea of megas. Having one powerful Pokemon that's clearly more powerful than the other five. I wasn't really saying that Kangaskhan is guaranteed to take out two Pokemon. It frequently does.. but it's skill dependent. Sometimes it doesn't even take out one depending upon how my opponent uses it. Just that I generally have to use two Pokemon working together to beat it. eg. One to Wilo-Wisp and one to finish it off, or one to sacrifice with rocky helmet, then another to revenge kill it. That's generally along the lines of what happens.



I'm over 1900 atm. Is it that important though? The reason I was saying Mega Kangaskhan is different from those other ubers is because it requires a mega slot.

Gamefreak's logic is VGC rules logic (or Wifi logic). They didn't want 6 Megas in tournaments, but leniency is not given to things that are harming the OU tier.

P.S. It isn't skill-dependent. It is team-building dependent, and it is clearly centralising that...

I assume that people who are arguing over Kangaskhan also have the same sentiments about Mega Blaziken and Mega Gengar? The novelty argument is getting really stupid. Just treat Mega stones like items... Mega Kangaskhan gets a double-hit Choice Band and not being locked in. Ban it. Soul Dew gives Latias/Latios 50% more SPATK and SPD, that was banned.

Oh and speaking of that, I forgot Mega Latias/Latios existed o xo;

 

[Deucalion2]

I think it is relevant to note that Mega Kangaskhan is specifically a Mega Pokémon and not an ordinary Pokémon. A more formal way of thinking about the banning procedure is that we ban dominant strategies. A Pokémon becomes a dominant strategy at the point that selecting that Pokémon for your team is always better than any other Pokémon from the set available to you, regardless of what your opponent does. As a Mega Pokémon, Mega Kangaskhan is being selected from the set of other Mega Pokémon and not other Pokémon in general. Therefore, whether or not Mega Kangaskhan is a dominant strategy depends on whether Mega Kangaskhan is better choice than other Mega Pokémon, and not whether it is better than other Pokémon in general.

 

[noobcubed]

I generally have to use two Pokemon working together to beat it. eg. One to Wilo-Wisp and one to finish it off, or one to sacrifice with rocky helmet, then another to revenge kill it. That's generally along the lines of what happens.

You are forgetting that MegaKhan has the option of switching out on these "semi-checks", switching in later on one of the other four, and continuing to wreak havoc. All you have succeeded in saying is that it is possible to build a team that doesn't get 6-0'd by MegaKhan from turn one, which is a million miles away from it being a healthy addition to OU.

A more formal way of thinking about the banning procedure is that we ban dominant strategies. A Pokémon becomes a dominant strategy at the point that selecting that Pokémon for your team is always better than any other Pokémon from the set available to you, regardless of what your opponent does.

By that logic: everyone runs a mega-evoultion. Let's ban mega-evolutions!

Usage =/= brokenness.

 

[X5Dragon]

It... really isn't. At all. All it requires is the most basic of all prediction, so basic that a small child can learn it. Mega on the first turn, Crunch if you see a ghost, PuP everywhere else. Or if you're running Fire Punch, use that instead of Crunch (it annihilates most ghosts anyway)

You don't even have to use Crunch, just don't mega evolve and with scrappy get a boost anyway (in case you are scared of a switch in).

 

[LordRandomness]

You completely ignored my post and the main argument around this point of discussion that has been frequently repeated: The "cost" for using a Mega Evolution is negligible-- it's so insignificant, it's not really worth acknowledging; certainly not compared to the problem.

But what you're not getting is if 1 Pokemon is significantly better than others, it can lead to teams being broken down much more easily-- which completely disrupts the dynamics of a Pokemon battle. If one enemy Pokemon is powerful to the point it's almost guaranteed to take down several others, it will often decide the whole game right there. You're ignoring the fact that with such a game dynamic, the ability to win via skill is trounced.

In a meta where 1 Pokemon easily busts through several others just because it's better the game isn't about skill-- it's about who is lucky enough to find a chance to smash the other side first.

Oh! That was my bad, I didn't actually see that you'd posted again somehow. I'll agree that the opportunity cost is low compared to the power (particularly since you don't lose anything you already had in Gen V by not using the Mega Evolution of a particular Pokemon), which provides a power buff to the mega slot across the board, but I'm not sure where luck comes into finding an opportunity to "smash the other side first". Isn't that both sides competitively looking for an opening? I mean if you have two teams both aiming to sweep, you practically get this situation already. Furthermore, if the increase in power is sufficiently small I could see Megas having a bit of an edge, but not enough to cause the issues with an effective Uber slot.

Although, again, I haven't really got the practical experience to judge that. I guess if people wiser than myself say that having one more powerful Pokemon will cause significant problems, then it most likely will. Would be an interesting thing to actually test out with an "Uber" slot though.

Again, sorry for missing your post. It was not my intention to simply ignore you.

 

[silfan]

I think it is relevant to note that Mega Kangaskhan is specifically a Mega Pokémon and not an ordinary Pokémon. A more formal way of thinking about the banning procedure is that we ban dominant strategies. A Pokémon becomes a dominant strategy at the point that selecting that Pokémon for your team is always better than any other Pokémon from the set available to you, regardless of what your opponent does. As a Mega Pokémon, Mega Kangaskhan is being selected from the set of other Mega Pokémon and not other Pokémon in general. Therefore, whether or not Mega Kangaskhan is a dominant strategy depends on whether Mega Kangaskhan is better choice than other Mega Pokémon, and not whether it is better than other Pokémon in general.

I don't think just because it is a mega you necessarily have to have double standard on it.
If it's unhealthy for meta, it is unhealthy for the meta no matter what it is.
Mega is not that much different than just another item that can only be equipped to a specific pokemon.
The only drawback is that you can't use more than 1 mega stone and that is not even a big concern.
Aside from Mega Gengar, Mega Lucario, and Mega Kangaskhan, all other mega seems to be perfectly fine in OU.
Well, maybe not Mega Pinsir, but that's for another discussion.

 

[Sykikal]

Which is a trivial choice, because M-Khan eclipses the whole lot of the rest of them.

I've seen a lot of people make good use of Mega Charizard, Mega Llucairo, and Mega Gengar (which I was personally against banning). It's arguably the best but I don't know if it's fair to say it completely outclasses them.

It... really isn't. At all. All it requires is the most basic of all prediction, so basic that a small child can learn it. Mega on the first turn, Crunch if you see a ghost, PuP everywhere else. Or if you're running Fire Punch, use that instead of Crunch (it annihilates most ghosts anyway)

Crunch means getting rid of EQ or Sucker Punch.. making it vulnerable to other Pokemon. What if the opponent has a ghost on the team but it isn't out? What if it is something bulky like Skarmory that can Whirlwind you out after Power Up punch? it isn't always that simple.

Which is exactly what we were talking about that's unhealthy. Dedicating up to half of a team just to try to lose slower is not indicative of a healthy metagame.

I mentioned this in the post, it isn't about getting 2-3 Pokemon there for the sole purpose of countering Mega Kangaskhan.. I used Rocky Helmet Skarmory even in gen 5 when it wasn't around. These are already good Pokemon that perform well even when Kangaskhan isn't around. Kangaskhan has an influence on my team builder just like lots of major OU threats do. I might choose one Pokemon over another because of Heatran or Dragonite or another powerful OU Pokemon.

That still doesn't warrant it being treated differently for tiering purposes. It may as well be "you can use a legendary, but only one per team also you can't use items on them". Granted, not all megas are broken, but not all legendaries are either. If something's broken, it's broken.

Smogon, in general is against complex bans. In theory, yes, I suppose you could have something silly like "You can use Mewtwo on your team, but only if you also have 4 UU on it" or "You can use Ho-oh but only if you also use Slugma" and the team would probably be "balanced". Drizzle + Swift Swim was an exception.

 

[Deucalion2]

By that logic: everyone runs a mega-evoultion. Let's ban mega-evolutions!

Usage =/= brokenness.

You've not understood what I've said. To the first part, if we're considering subsets of strategies rather than unique strategies, you could make a case for banning Mega Pokémon. However, Smogon has always had a history of considering only unique strategies and until very recently non-contingent ones at that. To the second part, the fact a particular choice represents the dominant strategy doesn't mean it will always be used. Many players will not be skilled enough to understand why the pay-offs for one choice are better than another, meaning they won't use said strategy even it is better than all available others.

 

[Sykikal]

Gamefreak's logic is VGC rules logic (or Wifi logic). They didn't want 6 Megas in tournaments, but leniency is not given to things that are harming the OU tier.

P.S. It isn't skill-dependent. It is team-building dependent, and it is clearly centralising that...

I assume that people who are arguing over Kangaskhan also have the same sentiments about Mega Blaziken and Mega Gengar? The novelty argument is getting really stupid. Just treat Mega stones like items... Mega Kangaskhan gets a double-hit Choice Band and not being locked in. Ban it. Soul Dew gives Latias/Latios 50% more SPATK and SPD, that was banned.

Oh and speaking of that, I forgot Mega Latias/Latios existed o xo;

Blaziken is ban worthy even without the Mega Stone. I mean that would be like allowing Mewtwo X just because it has a mega stone.

I was personally against the Gengarite ban though. I was more on the fence on that one and probably didn't have enough experience with Mega Gengar to say for certain though.

 

[noobcubed]

You've not understood what I've said. To the first part, if we're considering subsets of strategies rather than unique strategies, you could make a case for banning Mega Pokémon. However, Smogon has always had a history of considering only unique strategies and until very recently non-contingent ones at that. To the second part, the fact a particular choice represents the dominant strategy doesn't mean it will always be used. Many players will not be skilled enough to understand why the pay-offs for one choice are better than another/

I did understand. My point, and I suppose I didn't make it clear, is that you were using the fact that MegaKhan was not on every team (or rather, that it does not warrant a place on every team) as an argument that it was not broken. The throwaway line about banning all megas was just to underline the consequences of deciding bans based on usage, or even on the nebulous concept you describe, which is something like "how much usage a Pokemon deserves".

 

[Deucalion2]

I did understand. My point, and I suppose I didn't make it clear, is that you were using the fact that MegaKhan was not on every team (or rather, that it does not warrant a place on every team) as an argument that it was not broken. The throwaway line about banning all megas was just to underline the consequences of deciding bans based on usage, or even on the nebulous concept you describe, which is something like "how much usage a Pokemon deserves".

Mega Kangaskhan being on every team and Mega Kangaskhan deserving to be on every team are two very different things. The former is not worthy of a ban, the latter is. Mind you, 'deserve' isn't really such a nebulous term here, it just means that there's no advantage to picking any other Mega in place of Mega Kangaskhan. Now, given Pokémon is an immensely complicated game with an extremely large number of possible choices, obviously we relax that quite a bit from 'no advantage' to 'rarely an advantage', but the point in general is true. The question of 'should we ban Mega Kangaskhan' is essentially 'is Mega Kangaskhan in the vast majority cases the better choice for your team than <insert other Mega here>'.

I don't really have an opinion either way on the ban, I just want to stress that the relevant metric of comparison for Mega Kangaskhan is not other Pokemon, it's other Mega Pokémon specifically.

 

[sidakarya]

I've seen a lot of people make good use of Mega Charizard, Mega Llucairo, and Mega Gengar (which I was personally against banning). It's arguably the best but I don't know if it's fair to say it completely outclasses them.

All of these (well, maybe except M-Gengar) have noticeable drawbacks which serve to balance their power. Charizard and Pinsir worry about Stealth Rock, Mawile is extremely slow, and so on. They also have very defined checks, that are viable in other OU contexts. Even Lucario has the drawback of being a glass cannon. Kangaskhan has no drawbacks, as explained in great detail earlier in this thread.

Crunch means getting rid of EQ or Sucker Punch.. making it vulnerable to other Pokemon. What if the opponent has a ghost on the team but it isn't out? What if it is something bulky like Skarmory that can Whirlwind you out after Power Up punch? it isn't always that simple.

If you saw my list of calcs early in this thread, you can see that Skarmory gets 2HKO'd by +2 Return. An attack that Skarmory is supposed to resist and tank. It's probably safe to say, it's going to die to an attack that it doesn't resist. (And why can't you have Sucker Punch and Crunch at once? Lots of Kangs do this.)

I mentioned this in the post, it isn't about getting 2-3 Pokemon there for the sole purpose of countering Mega Kangaskhan.. I used Rocky Helmet Skarmory even in gen 5 when it wasn't around. These are already good Pokemon that perform well even when Kangaskhan isn't around. Kangaskhan has an influence on my team builder just like lots of major OU threats do. I might choose one Pokemon over another because of Heatran or Dragonite or another powerful OU Pokemon.

Using those things isn't really the problem alone. If you find Rocky Helmet useful for other things, by all means use them. The problem is when they become widespread just to counter one thing and used over other items that may be more optimal for many other teams, which clearly is happening. Using Rocky Helmet on Skarmory alone has clear downsides over Leftovers (no passive recovery), or Shed Shell (Magnezone), yet people feel the need to put them on even when they would be disadvantageous in any other circumstance in their teams, because Kangaskhan. At the moment, Rocky Helmet is being used not only on Ferrothorn, Garchomp and Skarmory, but on the most random shit imagineable (Furfrou? really?), a classic symptom of overcentralisation. Back in the Excadrill metagame in early BW, you could've used Air Ballon on absolutely everything and said, they serve other purposes. Fair enough, but you could've used that item slot on something else, which would've served a better purpose for that Pokemon.

Smogon, in general is against complex bans. In theory, yes, I suppose you could have something silly like "You can use Mewtwo on your team, but only if you also have 4 UU on it" or "You can use Ho-oh but only if you also use Slugma" and the team would probably be "balanced". Drizzle + Swift Swim was an exception.

I don't think you've understood, what I said. I was saying, that megas shouldn't be treated any more different than any other Pokémon (or for that matter, item. A broken megastone is very comparable to Soul Dew; it makes an otherwise manageable Pokémon unmanageable.)

 

[Tachnicla]

Blaziken is ban worthy even without the Mega Stone. I mean that would be like allowing Mewtwo X just because it has a mega stone.

I was personally against the Gengarite ban though. I was more on the fence on that one and probably didn't have enough experience with Mega Gengar to say for certain though.

I wish to gauge your threshold. Your argument is that Megas should be more powerful than normal Pokemon but you also say that there's a limits, you could easily argue that all Megas should be allowed in OU in that way, but their regular versions are banworthy simply because they don't need to take up a mega-stone.

The precarious situation you're setting up is that Mega Kangaskhan, as well as Mega Gengar is at the right level of being played around in this tier. Well, that's all subjective, and ultimately the aggregate subjectivity makes up objectivity.

I don't know, I'm narrow and haven't had any scarring from Mega Kangaskhan to differentiate it between other threats. I don't know if 3/4ths of the people that will be voting for Mega Kangaskhan to be banned just have no idea how to play around it but... *Shrugs* Meow. I don't have to Pokebank OU experience so I won't say. Calcs.

 

[noobcubed]

The question of 'should we ban Mega Kangaskhan' is essentially 'is Mega Kangaskhan in the vast majority cases the better choice for your team than <insert other Mega here>'.

And this is basically saying "deserved usage = brokenness". Scizor fully merited the 25% usage he got towards the end of BW2. Was it broken? No, it was really good for the metagame, it had a wide variety of sets and could do anything (eg CB could revenge kill with Bullet Punch, gain momentum with U-turn, and Pursuit trap too, Swords Dance could make it an offensive sweeper or a bulkier variant with Roost, it could even run Baton Pass to enable a teammate's sweep). Scizor had a lot of uses and could be moulded to keep all kinds of dangerous threats under control, without ever threatening to maul teams single-handedly. Nobody ever came close to suggesting Scizor should be suspected.

MegaKhan is a different case. He has one role: kill everything. He doesn't need to be able to do anything else, and if there are other megas that are seriously better then they probably need banning too.

 

[Deucalion2]

And this is basically saying "deserved usage = brokenness". Scizor fully merited the 25% usage he got towards the end of BW2. Was it broken? No, it was really good for the metagame, it had a wide variety of sets and could do anything (eg CB could revenge kill with Bullet Punch, gain momentum with U-turn, and Pursuit trap too, Swords Dance could make it an offensive sweeper or a bulkier variant with Roost, it could even run Baton Pass to enable a teammate's sweep). Scizor had a lot of uses and could be moulded to keep all kinds of dangerous threats under control, without ever threatening to maul teams single-handedly.

'Scizor' in and of itself isn't really a strategy, though. Whether you ran a Scizor orientated around revenge-killing, offensive-sweeping, or end-game tanking, it meant that how you played 'Scizor' was very different. The fact Scizor was used a lot stemmed from the fact Scizor represented a wide array of good strategies rather than a single dominant strategy. Mega Kangaskhan, at the moment at least, is rather simpler - it effectively runs a single set. Even with some of the secondary moves changed (Crunch versions, for example), Mega Kangaskhan still fulfils the same role.

 

[Sykikal]

All of these (well, maybe except M-Gengar) have noticeable drawbacks which serve to balance their power. Charizard and Pinsir worry about Stealth Rock, Mawile is extremely slow, and so on. They also have very defined checks, that are viable in other OU contexts. Even Lucario has the drawback of being a glass cannon. Kangaskhan has no drawbacks, as explained in great detail earlier in this thread.

I haven't played in Pokebank much.. So I'm mostly speculating here, but I expect Stealth Rocks to be less of a threat after Defog is released far and wide. Many people use Charizard as a lead, and Pinsir only takes x2 damage from stealth rocks on its first switch out. Lucario has substandard defenses but I'm not really sure if it fits in the glass cannon category like Weavile, Gengar, Alakazam, etc. It generally can take one attack, which is enough to get a Swords Dance or Nasty Plot in.

If you saw my list of calcs early in this thread, you can see that Skarmory gets 2HKO'd by +2 Return. An attack that Skarmory is supposed to resist and tank. It's probably safe to say, it's going to die to an attack that it doesn't resist. (And why can't you have Sucker Punch and Crunch at once? Lots of Kangs do this.)

That's significant, but it can survive one attack after a boost, giving it time to switch in and Whirlwind out. With entry hazards, Rocky Helmet (or even leftovers), it's usually enough for me to wear down Kangaskhan and knock it out after maybe sacrificing a Pokemon. I don't think any Pokemon really perfectly tank and counter Kangaskhan just not many noPokemon really tank or counter Mega Lucario. Also, I wasn't saying it couldn't have both Crunch and Sucker Punch... Just that you generally had to choose between forgoing Sucker Punch OR Earthquake. Getting rid of Earthquake leaves you open to other Pokemon like Ferrothorn. I suppose you could also remove Return or Power Up punch but it seems like doing that would cause even more problems.

Using those things isn't really the problem alone. If you find Rocky Helmet useful for other things, by all means use them. The problem is when they become widespread just to counter one thing and used over other items that may be more optimal for many other teams, which clearly is happening. Using Rocky Helmet on Skarmory alone has clear downsides over Leftovers (no passive recovery), or Shed Shell (Magnezone), yet people feel the need to put them on even when they would be disadvantageous in any other circumstance in their teams, because Kangaskhan. At the moment, Rocky Helmet is being used not only on Ferrothorn, Garchomp and Skarmory, but on the most random shit imagineable (Furfrou? really?), a classic symptom of overcentralisation. Back in the Excadrill metagame in early BW, you could've used Air Ballon on absolutely everything and said, they serve other purposes. Fair enough, but you could've used that item slot on something else, which would've served a better purpose for that Pokemon.

Some popular OU Pokemon are sufficient to influence less optimal item changes.. Just like Magnezone alone causes Skarmory to pick Shell Shed over Leftovers. Just like some Pokemon running HP grass to counter Swampert (more common in 3-4). I can't even remember seeing Furfrou used in OU. I suppose at a certain point you have to say that a Pokemon is common enough to and influences the metagame too much. "What's the exact level of influence a Pokemon needs to be uber?" I couldn't say for certain. I just personally think Mega Kangaskhan hasn't quite reached that level yet.

I don't think you've understood, what I said. I was saying, that megas shouldn't be treated any more different than any other Pokémon (or for that matter, item. A broken megastone is very comparable to Soul Dew; it makes an otherwise manageable Pokémon unmanageable.)

The difference is Soul Dew only works on two Pokemon. There are way more mega stones. I disagree with the notion that mega evolution should be treated the same as other Pokemon when it comes to deciding what is and isn't Uber.

I wish to gauge your threshold. Your argument is that Megas should be more powerful than normal Pokemon but you also say that there's a limits, you could easily argue that all Megas should be allowed in OU in that way, but their regular versions are banworthy simply because they don't need to take up a mega-stone.

The precarious situation you're setting up is that Mega Kangaskhan, as well as Mega Gengar is at the right level of being played around in this tier. Well, that's all subjective, and ultimately the aggregate subjectivity makes up objectivity.

I don't know, I'm narrow and haven't had any scarring from Mega Kangaskhan to differentiate it between other threats. I don't know if 3/4ths of the people that will be voting for Mega Kangaskhan to be banned just have no idea how to play around it but... *Shrugs* Meow. I don't have to Pokebank OU experience so I won't say. Calcs.

I'm personally against bothering with complex bans, eg. banning the regular form but not the mega. I think it makes the game too inaccessible to new players if you have all sorts of convoluted "You can use this Pokemon but only if it has this item" stuff. So, what if Blaziken never had speed boost and only it's mega form did? I don't know, I'd probably still end up wanting it banned but I'd need to do more research on it.. Like I said I was on the fence about Mega Gengar and hadn't really done a lot of research on it so I haven't bothered to form a strong opinion on it one way or the other, same goes for Mega Blaziken.

I think Mega Gengar and Mega Kangaskhan of top tier OU. Does the metagame benefit from their inclusion? That probably varies from person to person. I personally liked Mega Gengar and Kangaskhan and enjoyed having them in.

 

[Shurtugal]

Finally, the suspect test is here.

I think one fact is indisputable in Kang's case: when Kangashkan isn't the Win Condition, it's setting up the next one. Kangs is a Pokemon that has enough coverage to make it's 100% counter base quite small (Garchomp and Hippodown with Rocky Helmet), and while it can essentially be taken down, it is almost next to near impossible to do unless Kangs comes out early-game, and if it comes out early, it will most likely bring down enough Pokemon to make the next Win Condition a guaranteed thing. Kangs has bulk like I have never seen before, as it can live many hits and it has one of the best speed tiers a Pokemon like Kangs could ask for. Kang's needs little to no support and can often sweep teams on it's own.

Gengarite got banned for "helping support other Pokemon to sweep." Well, I think Kang's can fit this role and also another one: "it can sweep with little to no support." I mean, this thing can OHKO Landorus-T (or do about 80% depending on what spread you run) but holy cow Landorus-T is one of the bulkiest Pokemon in the tier for Arceus' sake!

Kang's might not even have been broken if it weren't for Sucker Punch buff and Scrappy. It's almost impossible to handle. It has one of the best move pools you could ask for. There is no sound reason in my eyes why Kangs should maintain a place in OU when it's clearly broken.

 

[UltiMario]

Rocky Helmet Hippo trades with DE Kanga.

Rocky Helmet chomp loses to Kanga just attacking with Return, DE, or even Earthquake on switch-in instead of PuPing first.

Neither are 100% counters.

 

[Taiki]

Just a quick thought. Would it be to crippling to Khan to simply ban PuP on him specifically when he is mega evolved, or would he still be to strong even without it? Sorry if it has already had been mentioned ahead of time.

 

[Emperor]

'Scizor' in and of itself isn't really a strategy, though. Whether you ran a Scizor orientated around revenge-killing, offensive-sweeping, or end-game tanking, it meant that how you played 'Scizor' was very different. The fact Scizor was used a lot stemmed from the fact Scizor represented a wide array of good strategies rather than a single dominant strategy. Mega Kangaskhan, at the moment at least, is rather simpler - it effectively runs a single set. Even with some of the secondary moves changed (Crunch versions, for example), Mega Kangaskhan still fulfils the same role.

This is pretty much how I've seen it. The offensive Pup set's main goal has always been to do damage. That doesn't change regardless of whether it's running Return versus Facade etc.

Personally, I haven't had any problems with Mega Kanga at all during my time in Ou. I can't recall ever losing a match to someone using it. However, the problem with Kanga that, in my opinion, constitutes a ban is risk. Frankly, if the user of Mega Kanga makes a mistake using it any particular turn, it's no big deal. You can switch moves/switch out. If the person facing Mega Kanga makes a mistake? You probably lose one or two mons or your entire team in the process. It just doesn't balance out.

Just a quick thought. Would it be to crippling to Khan to simply ban PuP on him specifically when he is mega evolved, or would he still be to strong even without it? Sorry if it has already had been mentioned ahead of time.

It probably wouldn't be an option since complex bans tend to be avoided.

 

[LordRandomness]

Finally, the suspect test is here.

I think one fact is indisputable in Kang's case: when Kangashkan isn't the Win Condition, it's setting up the next one. Kangs is a Pokemon that has enough coverage to make it's 100% counter base quite small (Garchomp and Hippodown with Rocky Helmet), and while it can essentially be taken down, it is almost next to near impossible to do unless Kangs comes out early-game, and if it comes out early, it will most likely bring down enough Pokemon to make the next Win Condition a guaranteed thing. Kangs has bulk like I have never seen before, as it can live many hits and it has one of the best speed tiers a Pokemon like Kangs could ask for. Kang's needs little to no support and can often sweep teams on it's own.

Gengarite got banned for "helping support other Pokemon to sweep." Well, I think Kang's can fit this role and also another one: "it can sweep with little to no support." I mean, this thing can OHKO Landorus-T (or do about 80% depending on what spread you run) but holy cow Landorus-T is one of the bulkiest Pokemon in the tier for Arceus' sake!

Kang's might not even have been broken if it weren't for Sucker Punch buff and Scrappy. It's almost impossible to handle. It has one of the best move pools you could ask for. There is no sound reason in my eyes why Kangs should maintain a place in OU when it's clearly broken.

Oh, it's actually got a suspect testing ladder now? That's good. It definitely warrants that much attention at the very least.

 

[Melons-N-Soda]

I wouldn't mind seeing Mega Kangaskhan go, since I've wanted to try in Ubers. The best counters are like mentioned before Sableye, and pretty much ANY Ghost-type not weak to Crunch or any other coverage move it has.

I do think that after this and Lucario's suspect, Megas will be completely safe from the ban hammer (Maybe Mega Pinsir, but that's to me, one that should NOT go). I would also like to see a nerf to Parental Bond next gen (With it having a locking system or having the other hit do LESS damage).

 

[LordRandomness]

I wouldn't mind seeing Mega Kangaskhan go, since I've wanted to try in Ubers. The best counters are like mentioned before Sableye, and pretty much ANY Ghost-type not weak to Crunch or any other coverage move it has.

I do think that after this and Lucario's suspect, Megas will be completely safe from the ban hammer (Maybe Mega Pinsir, but that's to me, one that should NOT go). I would also like to see a nerf to Parental Bond next gen (With it having a locking system or having the other hit do LESS damage).

Well, you can use it in Ubers even if it's not banned to there you know!