Policy Review Huge Power, Pure Power, and Fur Coat

[Dogfish44]

Approved by Birkal :>

Evenin' folks. This is going to be a bit of a short one.

So, just over a couple of months ago (22nd of March), there was a fairly lengthy discussion on the Discord on Huge Power, Pure Power, and Fur Coat - and more specifically, why they're banned as Primary Abilities.

That discussion ended in pretty much a stalemate, with a conclusion of bringing this up in the post-CAP24 PRC. Ergo, I'd like to propose that Huge Power, Pure Power, and Fur Coat be moved from Primary Ability Bans to Secondary Ability Bans.

I believe that right now we are restricting ourselves from abilities which could see solid cases for selection, in particular on concepts which place emphasis on performing multiple roles. Indeed, we already have a decent reference point for this being viable in Azumarill, which can either use a Huge Power Belly Drum set, or can opt for a Sap Sipper Perish Trapping set.

So, thoughts? Do these abilities deserve a shot at discussion, or do the implications that such abilities have on stats and secondary ability result in them being too much of a process break?

 

[Bughouse]

I think this is a perfect case for something that could be done for the CAP 25 celebration, but otherwise does not really fit the CAP process, due to the order in which things are selected and the outsized importance abilities would have for such a concept.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

I'm still not completely sure about Fur Coat, so I think I'll comment about that later. But Pure/Huge Power actually are like most offensive abilities, so I think they should actually be treated as such.

It seems that the biggest argument against the secondary ban is that the two abilities have a major affect on both the stats stage and the secondary ability stage. Both of these abilities have the chance to majorly warp the stats stage due to the sheer magnitude of their stats influence, and that their power would warrant a much weaker secondary ability. But let me ask this question: don't most strong offensive abilities, ones that already are on the secondary ability banlist instead of the primary, do this?

Take Tough Claws for example. In a theoretical scenario, there is a CAP being made that wants to be some sort of physical attacker, and it is given Tough Claws to further add onto its attacking prowess. Once we get to stats stage in this scenario, we still absolutely have to balance our stats with this ability, as we don't want to overwhelm everything with STAB Tough Claw boosted Flare Blitz or something similar to that. Tough Claws can still ensure KOs that it shouldn't get that it wouldn't get without Tough Claws, so in response we would lower the stats. Tough Claws can absolutely have an effect on the stats, and still absolutely has the potential to be overpowered if its stats are not well handled.

Same sort of thing for secondary abilities. Strong primary abilities will always have a major effect on secondary ability stage, that is an inevitability. If we give a mon Magic Guard, we inherently don't want to give it as strong of a secondary ability. That's kind of why we have the secondary ability banlist, so we don't give it two ridiculously strong abilities. Huge Power does not change this fact.

Huge Power is not a bad ability that should be banned because of how strong it is. Yes, Mega Mawile was banned in Gen 6 and it did have Huge Power, but that is not the only reason. Mega Mawile had possibly the best defensive type in all of Pokemon as well as an outstanding movepool. And while Huge Power absolutely did help with its sweeping ability, it was all of these traits that got it banned, not just Huge Power. Mega Mawile is also here in Gen 7 still, which proves that it is not just the ability that breaks a mon. This is even more evident because both Azumarill and Mega Medicham have stayed in OU, even though they have this broken ability. Tough Claws, an ability actually on the secondary banlist, contributed to the ban of Mega Metagross in OU. If it helped get the mon banned, why isn't it also on the primary banlist?

I see no reason to keep it completely banned.

 

[Birkal]

This is a no-brainer approval in my book. The abilities Dogfish44 mentioned will certainly affect later stages of the process, but so do many abilities. Weather setting (Drizzle, Drought), stat-altering (Intimidate, Unaware), and pivoting (Regenerator, Natural Cure) all affect later stages in the process. And while the proposed abilities probably affect those stages to a greater degree, it is still crazy easy for us to predict the outcome of these abilities during the Primary Ability stage. No one will make (or allow) a stat spread with 120 base Attack on a CAP that already has Pure Power confirmed. Nothing is messed up by these being done as a Primary Ability. I personally don't feel that they are great abilities to build with, but that's a pretty weak reason for having them banned.

The more abilities we can allow, the better. This is a green light for me, personally!

 

[Zephias]

I'm gonna +1 approve this. Primary Ability goes before the stats stage, so we have all the opportunities to balance around the presence of these abilities on a CAP. Just look at Jumbao's Drought (which did something similar in terms of increasing power artificially through the ability) and the adaptations that were done with stats and movepool.

 

[Mova]

I'm going to agree with allowing Huge Power, Pure Power, and Fur Coat (maybe Fluffy?) as primary abilities, as this part of the process takes place before stats anyway. We can always restrict stats, movepool, and even secondary ability to compensate for one of these abilities, so it does not matter so much.

 

[jas61292]

Personally, I am very uncomfortable changing these abilities from being fully banned. The fact is, all they do is essentially alter stats. The issues with them are entirely process related.

Because primary ability comes before stats, we would pick these abilities without knowing what our stats will be. As such, they basically dictate, or at least restrict, a following stage. Realistically, by picking them, we are saying that we want a low stat (but really a high stat), dictating what we do in stats. Furthermore, literally the only reason to pick these abilities is if we have a secondary competitive ability. If we don't, then they are no different than just picking high stats in the first place. So basically, it is also removing an option for secondary ability, which is just as bad.

They sound neat, but they would just be a headache for the process, which is precisely why we banned them in the first place. Nothing has changed in this regard, so I see no real reason to allow these abilities.

 

[Wulfanator]

I would like to see the inclusion of these abilities at some point. Hitting on the point Birkal made, there are a plethora of abilities that are equally influential on the stats and movepool stages. Looking back on CAP24, the combination of drought and our threats list impacted these two stages. A specific example would be that preliminary discussions had the community leaning towards flamethrower as the potential fire coverage. We eventually decided to go with flame burst to prevent Jumbao from becoming too strong. I feel the same precautions would be taken if we decided to green light Huge Power/Pure Power and Fur Coat.

 

[Okamu]

For what it's worth in the face of so much agreement, I side with jas on this issue. I feel like their really isn't any situation in which we can get more benefit from Huge Power than simply altering the raw Atk stat and using a different ability to achieve a more concept-centered goal. As Lucario previously mentioned, Tough Claws is already an ability that acts as a type of physical attack boost. If we want to build a 'mon centered around using different abilities to fulfill opposite roles, for example, Huge/Pure Power don't provide anything that Tough Claws can't more narrowly cover. My argument, in this sense, isn't that any of these three abilities is too powerful and will lead to a busted CAP. Instead, my position is simply that we don't need to allow them. The process has been working fine, and no new factor has been introduced to make the abilities' availability a necessity. Additionally, since manipulation of stats and a different, possibly more interestingly useful ability can reach roughly equal if not higher power than the suggested abilities alone, I simply don't see a reason why we would open up a potential bag of worms.

However, if we do decide to approve these abilities, I would ask that only Huge Power and Fur Coat be approved. Pure Power is the exact same as Huge Power currently, but is restricted to the Medicham line. I see no reason why we couldn't allow Huge Power and disallow Pure Power to maintain the games' trend towards Pure Power's exclusivity (If you look at the Japanese names of the two abilities, you'll understand why one is more widespread than the other).

Additionally, I'd like to at least mention that I see a potential problem if we allow Fur Coat, in that Fluffy exists. I believe it as well is currently banned, so we should logically allow that too if we're allowing Fur Coat, no? Following that logic through, we then have a situation where Fur Coat almost always gets used over Fluffy unless the concept calls for preserving some specific weakness. Just something to ponder.

 

[Drapionswing]

In the case of Huge Power I think that we should unban it. I don't see any reason for it to be banned, we have other power boosting abilities and they aren't a problem. Firstly I'd like to debunk any potential thoughts on the ability being broken, Huge Power as an ability has been seen throughout the CAP metagame and hasn't shown trouble in this generation or even the last. It's a power boost that we would control very well. Pokemon such as Azumaril, Mega Medicham and Mega Mawille all face simple balancing techniques which prevent them for being overbearing. Furthermore, Huge Power has advantages over all boosting moves within the process, as it gives a boost to all of your physical power while locking you into an ability. This means that in a process where we want to have more power, we can centre it in a different way unlike all abilities without having to use high stats while also giving us an alternative way to present Power + No competitive ability.

I don't think this ability limits stat stage at all, and the concept of it isn't complicated so I don't see how this would even be much of a problem in that regard.

 

[david0895]

This is a really good idea: these ability can allow us to pump a little more the other stats.
Obviously, we'll have to be more careful, because having too many good stats at the same time, can wreck the balance of the CAP created

 

[Quanyails]

I'm on board with Dogfish. What's said about stat-changing abilities giving the CAP Pokemon more stat options than just natures/EVs/IVs has already been said, which give them a reason to be unbanned, since they're more than just stat boosts that can be covered in the stats stage.

I don't see the difference between boosting the stat directly vs. indirectly with an ability like Drought. During the stats stage for Jumbao, Drought already served as a way to limit values for Special Attack in submissions.

 

[DougJustDoug]

I'm opposed to these abilities being allowed mostly for the reasons jas61292 mentioned, but I am not as staunchly opposed as I have been in the past. I am not opposed to Huge Power, Pure Power or Fur Coat for any reasons of them being overpowered, and I don't think I ever was opposed for those reasons. I am opposed because these abilities are a problem for our process.

It is almost impossible to discuss and vote for these abilities during the primary ability step (and yes, these are definitely only primary abilities) without poll-jumping all to hell about stats, OR without having a ton of very unhealthy unspoken assumptions that everyone is carrying around in those discussions, but no one can voice them because poll-jumping isn't allowed in CAP, for good reasons.

Yes, the same general thing can be said for many other abilities, in that they have a marked effect on later steps, and we can't discuss those later steps during the Ability step. But Huge/Pure Power and Fur Coat are so completely directly tied to specific stats -- they are almost unique in the game in how they convolute the normal CAP process.

For example, when we discuss and/or select Intimidate for a CAP pokemon, we make a significant bump in that pokemon's ability to withstand Physical attacks. There are lots of other mechanics associated with the benefits and drawbacks of Intimidate too. But when Intimidate is being discussed, every intelligent discussion participant knows we are probably going to account for the ability choice later when we discuss the pokemon's Defense stat later in the process. But the impact of Intimidate is fairly indirect in its effect on the Defense stat. The ability only impacts effective Defense against the opponent on the field and is removed versus switchins, the positive impact to Defense doesn't apply to moves like Psyshock and Secret Sword, the ability could actually SUBTRACT from effective Defense if facing a Defiant opponent, etc etc. The existence of all these caveats and special situations with Intimidate don't stop most of us from still generally considering Intimidate to be a physical defensive buff, but no one considers Intimidate to be almost exclusively a buff to the Defense stat of the pokemon in question. There are so many other impacts from Intimidate to the pokemon and to the entire team that has an Intimidate team member -- that the impact to effective physical defense for the CAP pokemon itself, is simply one of many things to be considered when discussing and choosing Intimidate as an ability.

Huge Power, Pure Power and Fur Coat are a completely different story. The impact of these abilities is direct, focused, and effectively immutable. There is no doubt, ambiguity or subtlety in determining the effect of these abilities on the CAP creation. They double the Attack or Defense stat of the pokemon with the ability. Period. Not the "effective physical attack" or "effective physical defense", like in the Intimidate example earlier. Mechanically, the game takes the pokemon's Attack or Defense stat and multiplies it times two. That's it. Yes, there are moves that can remove abilities, and things like Mold Breaker suppress Fur Coat. So I am not saying Huge/Pure Power and Fur Coat are mechanically exactly the same as doubling the pokemon's actual Attack or Defense stat. But the impact of these abilities is incredibly specific to stat values only, and their impact is so rarely negated for the pokemon with the abilities, that there is virtually no ambiguity or question as to what effect will be achieved by giving the abilities to a CAP pokemon.

A CAP poll that selects Huge Power, Pure Power, or Fur Coat is basically a direct vote for a high Attack or Defense stat of the pokemon we are creating. It is not a vote to "make a potent physical attacker" or "make a good physically defensive pokemon". It is a vote to give the CAP pokemon a high Attack stat number or high Defense stat number. I say "high", because there is no reasonable base stat number that is low enough for the pokemon to NOT have a high stat after it is doubled, taking EVs and nature into account. Even craptastic base stat numbers like 60 base Attack for Medicham, with Pure Power it had one of the biggest Attack stats in the game for several generations.

Again, I will reiterate that I DON'T think the effect of these abilities is overpowered inherently, and that is even more pronounced in recent generations where sky-high stats are pretty much table stakes for inclusion in the OU tier. In fact, part of the reason I have softened my opposition to these abilities is precisely because of stat inflation in the game. CAP has to optimize the hell out of stats these days to make our pokemon compete with the vast number of Legendaries and Mega Evolutions that fill the ranks of OU and even lower tiers. CAP still tends to frown on stat spreads with more than 580 BST, so we have to work hard to make our CAP pokemon stat spreads effectively competitive. A pokemon with Huge power or Fur Coat certainly gets a LOT more stat room to work with under that soft 580 BST limit.

But again, this still gets back to my point about the reason for these abilities -- they are nothing but a portion of the Stats step masquerading as the Ability step in the CAP process. If we need more BST room to make effective stats for our pokemon, let's just increase our BSR/BST expectations. If we want our CAP pokemon to have a big Attack stat or big Defense stat, then lets just do that -- but discuss it openly in the Stats Discussion and vote for it directly in the Stats Poll. Don't allow it in Ability stages where the direct impact to the stats is exact and undeniable, but direct discussion or acknowledgement of stats is DISALLOWED by rule.