VGC Groudon + cherrim sun team with unconventional mons, thoughts and help?

[djmath]

Hi everyone!

I saw WolfeyVGC's sun team with cherrim and Entei and I wanted to make a variation of it using some other pokemon and different sets. This team thrives when the sun is out and when flower gift is in full effect. It can work decently without sun, but definitely struggles against kyogre teams and since I'm pretty unfamiliar with weather wars, I'd love some tips on how to tighten up my defenses, especially in that MU.

pokepaste: https://pokepast.es/b3c25c6d3f6dd27c

Groudon is AV to have better survivability, especially with flower gift activated. Move choice is for coverage, wanted to go all in on physical instead of mixed to increase survivability without sacrificing speed. Outspeeds no investment incin and has a high chance to OHKO incin with precipes blades (93%) and guaranteed OHKO with high horsepower, provided +0 attack stage or -1 with flower gift support. Bulky Groudon with high SpD lives well against astral barrage as well

Scarf Entei is really a monster. Outspeeding most of the meta (except for regieleki), sun boosted and flower gift boosted entei puts out massive damage and cannot be effected by intimidate or fakeout. His bulk and movepool also contribute to his strength on this team.

Porygon 2 is a strong pokemon for this team, but I'm kind of iffy on its inclusion currently. I mostly have it as a check / counter vs shadow rider, and also coverage / bulk against kyogre in the sun (solarbeam). Would thunder be a better choice since no stab bonus either way? Usually, kyogre teams will have rillaboom, so getting the grassy terrain boost on solarbeam in the sun actually does huge damage to both kyogre and urshifu rapid strike, but picking up KOs usually requires in SpA boost from download.

Cherrim is the support pokemon on this team that really makes the offensive physical attackers so much more dangerous. Flower gift, protect, substitute, and pollen puff all provide longevity to a team where most pokemon literally do not carry protect. Very reliant on sun being up and does not deal a lot of damage. Sitrus berry for being able to get off a substitute after surviving a hit, might change speed investment for more SpD because it really only outspeeds incin for getting sub up.

Dracovish for water absorb vs rain teams and coverage vs landorus and other annoying mons for this team. Does a lot of damage and is immune to water. Not particularly fast and not sash-ed, but does well when positioned well.

Lastly, frosmoth. Absolute wildcard and I'm not sure it's even worth bringing but its unique typing and movepool, including access to weather ball, are enticing. I really wanted wide guard support and frosmoth is a good offensive pokemon with a unique ability (ice scales) which allows it to take half damage from special attacks. This coupled with flower gift gives it enormous special bulk and survivability, doing well against special landorus and tornadus. speed IVs are currently set to outspeed non-scarfed kyogre at +1, but could get rid of weakness policy in favor of sash to exceed more speed thresholds at +1 speed.

Let me know what you think, I would love to improve this team without sacrificing too much, but I know I have hard matchups vs kyogre and teams with strong fake out support, as well as teams with primarily physical attackers. Thanks!

 

[Yourwelcomethanku]

Hello hope your doing well, just giving some feedback.


Unfortunately Frosmoth is not good in VGC, its typing is poor defensively and offensively, and it lacks good support moves asides Wide Guard which is decent but its not really worth using such a poor Pokemon for Wide Guard, its outclassed by Volcarona for the most part.


Dracovish should not be used on sun teams as its best attack in Fishous rend is made much weaker by Groudon's Drought. You are using Dracovish as counterplay to Kyogre however its not really that good at it. While it takes not much damage from Kyogre itself it isn't that threatening in return and so Kyogre can just water spout the teamates.
252+ Atk Life Orb Dracovish Fishious Rend (85 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kyogre in Rain: 66-78 (37.7 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


In terms of replacements for these 2


I think Rillaboom would be a good idea as it would provide this team a much appreciated Kyogre check as once Kyogre gets weather control it does not look fun and Rain Dance Tornadus or Regieleki + Urshifu-R also looks like a problem and Rillaboom could help with that to. The Rillaboom EV spread is pretty fast in order to get a fast Fake Out and Assault vest lets it be a more consistent Kyogre check. (See changes to sets where I mention Groudon)

Rillaboom

DK (Rillaboom) @ Assault Vest
Ability: Grassy Surge
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 28 Atk / 4 Def / 4 SpD / 228 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Grassy Glide
- Wood Hammer
- U-turn
- Fake Out

I heard Raineko say something about Zapdos I think you should add that for now, Zapdos can threaten stuff like Tornadus and Urshifu-R as well using its good bulk and is a generally strong attacker sure no wide guard but that is not a necessity. Safety goggles helps deal with Spore from Amoonguss and Venusaur's Sleep Powder. This slot might be better as something else but for now I think its fine.

Zapdos

Zapdos @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Static
Level: 50
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Weather Ball
- Detect
- Roost

Changes to sets

While AV Groudon may have some decent survivability, the power of Life Orb and the ability to use Protect are very good, and the thing is even with AV Groudon may live a hit from Calyrex-S but its not like its KOing back. AV sounds like it just makes Groudon easier to play around with its inability to Protect. This new set should make Groudon a much bigger threat alongside another change I recommend which is running Trick Room on Porygon2. This Groudon is minimum speed as to take advantage of TR.

Groudon

Groudon @ Life Orb
Ability: Drought
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Precipice Blades
- Heat Crash
- Swords Dance
- Protect

Trick Room alongside the new Life Orb Groudon should give this team a threatening Trick Room mode with Groudon as the abuser and Porygon2 as the setter, as cool as Solar Beam Porygon2 sounds it relies on hitting Kyogre in the sun with Porygon2 which if your opponent is a good player they will probably try and be able to avoid that situation most of the time. Also no to the Thunder option because its 50% accurate in sun. This EV spread lives Life Orb Urshifu Close Combat which isn't very relevant but something more relevant can probably be thought of later.

Porygon2

Porygon2 @ Eviolite
Ability: Download
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 188 Def / 76 SpA
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ice Beam
- Shadow Ball
- Trick Room
- Recover

Entei

Entei @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Inner Focus
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Flare Blitz
- Stomping Tantrum
- Crunch

Flare Blitz>Extreme speed the usefulness of Extreme Speed is much less on a scarf set and the extra power of Flare Blitz can be crucial in many situations such as being able to KO a chipped Zacian-c.

Cherrim

Cherrim @ Focus Sash
Ability: Flower Gift
Level: 50
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Solar Blade
- Helping Hand
- Pollen Puff
- Protect

Recommend changing cherim to sash its frail and is liable to be OHKOd even when invested in bulk signficantly. and with sash there is much less point in investing into bulk so you can invest in attack for a deceptively strong Solar Blade. EDIT again forgot I changed sub for HH, sub is probably a fine option though it seems hard for something as frail as cherrim to reliably get one so its been replaced for HH

EDIT: Forgot to link the new paste https://pokepast.es/57bea56d6b707ef2

These changes should improve the team. currently I am skeptical of a lack of intimidate this can make dealing with the formats many Physical attackers such as Groudon and Zacian-c hard, Gyarados or Incineroar might work over Zapdos. It does seem some other people in the smogon VGC discord are willing to provide feedback!

 

[djmath]

Thank you so much! Especially for keeping the main 4 that I wanted in the team and giving better alternatives for the ones I was more iffy about (like, I love frosmoth but it's too niche and bad). I'll try these changes and I think they'll help a lot!