This right here perfectly encapsulates how ridiculous greninja's shenanigans are.
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Pokémon Greninja
- Thread starter Hypercut
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I never thought about that. That allows for a total 12 EVs investment in special attack which is almost enough to secure the 2HKO on skarm while still outpacing jolly dugtrio. Thx for helping with my gimmick! =p
And what a potentially good partner it is for Birdspam.
blinkie
¯\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯ dank meme crew
Unfortunately this set is still completely shut down by Empoleon aka #1 Greninja counter.
Well Empoleon is not an issue against my team as I have 2 members that can comfortably take care of it. If it was an issue however, I guess I could swap U-turn for Low kick as it has been mentioned before and hit Empoleon and other heavy mons hard, but that's not the case.
Besides, If Greninja had no counters we would be having this conversation in Ubers forum.
Empoleon is a pretty niche Mon and U-turn deals with it anyway.
blinkie
¯\_( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)_/¯ dank meme crew
And this Greninja set isn't niche?
It is a niche set, I never said otherwise (though I can see why you'd think I implied it was an okay set).
Honestly this thing doesn't get enough coverage as is. GF should definitely give it HJK and ExtremeSpeed so it can be more viable in OU.
Futuramanotsureifseriousfry.jpg
Isn't Greninja walled by nearly all bulky waters bar those variants with grass knot? Greninja may have good coverage but it simply can't have it all. There's no way it can run an omnibus moveset that clears everything. Most waters work well against it, especially those with high sp defence naturally (eg. vaporeon - c'mon, it's not that hard to fit a vaporeon in an ou team sheesh).
Most of these pokemons , i repeat , most , not all , are gimmicks. Using gimmick pokèmons to counter only a few (or only one) pokemons in the ou metagame it's a foolishness.
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
Bulky waters can be a problem for non-GK Greninja but most of them can be killed: Azumarill is killed by Gunk Shot, Slowbro doesn't appreciate Dark Pulse and Rotom-W has no recovery so it can't come in on Greninja 5 times. Other Water types are probably Greninja's best counters (Empoleon, Tentacruel, Alomomola and Gyarados are all reliable answers to Greninja [don't talk about Vaporeon because she is not viable in OU] but neither of them are very popular (Tentacruel and Empoleon both hit 4% on the usage, the same usage as Cresselia, Politoed and Terrakion)
I must respectfully disagree with you that vaporeon or its likes are not ou viable. I've been personally using a milotic in my ou team and I don't see how my team got torn to shreds in the ou metagame at all. Something not being ou in terms of usage statistics does not equate to it being ou unviable.
Perhaps it is time people stop being fixated on only mons that were deemed 'ou viable' (what a joke) and start to construct their teams more creatively by using the underrated mons that could work perfectly well to inject some variety into this metagame. At the end of the day I believe it is about the synergy between the 6 guys in a team that secures a victory (alongside with a player's skill and prediction).
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Yea I know those two are in competition for a teamslot and perhaps in terms of typing, coverage or support, sylveon emerges victorious in getting chosen for a slot. However, this does not mean that vaporeon does not have its perks. It was after all, a premier bulky water for the past generations of pokemon games. It is about how you organise your team.
And no, vaporeon won't be 2HKO by gunk shot if you run the standard ev spread of bold nature with max investment in HP and Defence. My vaporeon never disappointed in walling greninja when I ran it and it still pulled its weight with its useful wish support and scald burns.
SketchUp
Don't let your memes be dreams
Vaporeon indeed does a better job checking Greninja, but outside of this point, other clerics overshadow it in my opinion.
And yeah, Resto Chesto and Pain Split are both ways for Rotom-W to restore health, but they aren't as reliable as Wish, Softboiled and such moves. I got to admit the argument Rotom-W doesn't have reliable recovery is not the best argument as other answers to Greninja I listed, such as Tentacruel and Empoleon, also don't have reliable recovery but the big difference is that a Physical Defensive Rotom-W doesn't take Dark Pulse well, while the Special Defensive Rotom-W doesn't take Gunk Shot well. Empoleon, on the other hand, can take Dark Pulses well if it is Special Defensive, and also takes Gunk Shots well because it is immune to it, the same works for Tentacruel, as it resists Gunk Shot and Low Kick so even without physical defense investment it doesn't have to fear physical attacks, while Rotom-W does because he doesn't resist it (hope you could follow this :P)
And yeah, Resto Chesto and Pain Split are both ways for Rotom-W to restore health, but they aren't as reliable as Wish, Softboiled and such moves. I got to admit the argument Rotom-W doesn't have reliable recovery is not the best argument as other answers to Greninja I listed, such as Tentacruel and Empoleon, also don't have reliable recovery but the big difference is that a Physical Defensive Rotom-W doesn't take Dark Pulse well, while the Special Defensive Rotom-W doesn't take Gunk Shot well. Empoleon, on the other hand, can take Dark Pulses well if it is Special Defensive, and also takes Gunk Shots well because it is immune to it, the same works for Tentacruel, as it resists Gunk Shot and Low Kick so even without physical defense investment it doesn't have to fear physical attacks, while Rotom-W does because he doesn't resist it (hope you could follow this :P)
I don't disagree with this line of argument. The point is, all these waters are fallible to greninja in various ways - empoleon dying to low kick, tentacruel dying to extrasensory or simply being worn down due to lack of reliable recovery, rotom-w taking massive damage either from dark pulse or gunk shot (depending on which defense - physical or special you have invested in). The other bulky waters such as milotic, suicune then dies to grass knot as well.
My point is that there is simply no sure-fire way of countering greninja in the broad sense, in that no pokemon is the be-all and end-all against greninja. Play smart and have at least one of these guys on your team and most likely you'll be fine. Greninja simply can't have everything and for every move that it lacks, it would get hard walled by something else. You guys are of course free to stick to those mons deemed 'ou viable' but that does not preclude or even undermine the effectiveness of other bulky waters in relation to their ability to counter greninja or shine in the ou meta. So yea, greninja isn't really that fearsome once you have the set figured.
Empoleon and Tentacruel aren't counters because they get bopped by viable coverage options (Empoleon gets 2HKO'd by LO Low Kick with 40 Attack EVs like 50% of the time if Rocks are up while I'm pretty sure the same happens to Tentacruel hit by Extrasenory; don't quote me of that though since phones hate the calc). I'm not even sure if they can qualify as checks because they can't do anything but try to fish for a Scald burn, which isn't stopping Greninja from nuking something later with Hydro Pump or Ice Beam.
counter ≠ hard counter
Gunk SHot? Low Kick? Two very useful moves have not been mentioned on the OP.
Except they're not even soft counters. They can get 2HKOed by some move Greninja runs, and, as Karxrida pointed out, they can't do anything but fish for Scald burns.
Porygon2 and Rest-Talk Gyarados are counters though, but are you really going to run those Pokemon on offense, which as it stands is basically limited to Mega Lopunny for something that can switch in on anything Greninja has once and threaten it out (only before it Mega Evolves though & only if it has Fake Out, Extrasensory is a clean OHKO)? Hell, RT Gyarados only really works on stall teams, so not even balance can use that one.
Here was where I was about to talk about shit offense can use that can (even sort-of) switch in on Greninja and force it out... Except I realized, nothing can if Greninja packs Extrasensory! Yeah, at first I thought they could, but then I realized I forgot to factor in Protean in my calcs. Even then, though, Talonflame pretty much checks all of the main things Extrasensory targets on offense and a lot of the Pokemon that check Greninja (as in, Scarf Keldeo / Mega Lopunny / Mega Beedrill.) Hell, I find that when I use Greninja, I just have a ridiculous advantage against offensive teams. It's not even funny.
Sorry to just jump in out of nowhere here, but I'm really beginning to think that Greninja's beginning to be too much. I wanted it to be worse in ORAS (meaning one of the megas could counter it), but nope. Say hello to Gunk Shot and Low Kick, which demolish former checks and counters Sylveon, Clefable, and Ferrothorn. I don't mean to sound like I don't brainstorm about checking Greninja, because it is possible. Brave Bird Talonflame, priority...I dunno what else. Mega Sceptile? I'd say Mega Sceptile, but I'm not running a mega exclusively to check Greninja - and I've actually seen Choice Scarf Greninja a lot lately, so Sceptile becomes irrelevant. Yes, you can say that it's walled by something if it opts for, say, Hidden Power Fire over Gunk Shot, but there's no way to KNOW what it has and what it doesn't. On an offensive team like mine, I ain't got no time to scout for moves. It lives to murder things and murders to live things.
And you're absolutely right. The only true counters to Greninja are not even viable to use on offensive and balance teams, and I'm surely not changing to STALL so I can just not care about Greninja anymore. With so many moves, it has so many possible sets. Hydro Pump, Hidden Power Fire, Ice Beam, Gunk Shot, Low Kick, Extrasensory, Grass Knot, Dark Pulse...I can go on and on. Each one of those coverage moves dismantles SOMETHING because of Protean: Hidden Power Fire burns Ferrothorn to death, Gunk Shot murders fairies, Low Kick murders Ferrothorn and Empoleon, Extrasensory murders Venusaur, Grass Knot murders water-types like Suicune, and Dark Pulse murders Slowbro. Sure, it's got bad defenses. But that doesn't matter - Greninja is so effecient at what it does that its defenses almost don't matter. I get when someone says "oh it's frail so it's not ban-worthy imo" but I find myself, when making teams, thinking "darn, how am I gonna get rid of that blasted frog" or "oh dang it, i'm weak to ninja, better redo the team" before anything else.
To address these two points
- Mega Sceptile is perfectly viable outside of checking Greninja. Also makes for an effective cleaner, and can fit onto Rain teams as the electric immunity.
- Scarf Ninja was only used during the Mega Mence meta. Outside checking the now banned dragon, Scarf Greninja is a sub-par set because it loses out on Greninja's greatest asset, which is STAB coverage power.
Defenses aren't as exploitable as they seem, but they pretty much mean outspeeding Greninja is the only thing necessary to check it, since any hit will take a decent chunk. Combine that with Greninja's dependence on LO, and thus recoil, plus hazards, and every turn where it does get walled comes at some minor cost to Greninja.
Not saying Greninja isn't suspect worthy (not ban worthy IMO though), but he does have legitimate flaws that can be played around, albeit a bit carefully, without resorting to gimmicks or sub-par mons solely as other suspects did (Scarf Ninja and P2 for Mega Mence, Defensive Arcanine for Mawile, hell Moltres was considered sometimes for Mega Lucario).
I personally like using scarfers and, less so, priority users to deal with Greninja. Scarfers alone give Greninja pause, as Landorus-T and Latios wipe Greninja out though Landorus-T wants stealth rock assistance or a round or two of Life Orb damage to secure the kill.
Though I struggle to think of a sound counter to him.. checking him with faster pokes or scarfers honestly feels like the most reliable way of "dealing" with him... which is only a temporary solution to the problem.
Lately I've been thinking about employing some protects on my defensive pokes to scout the movesets of Greninjas I face.
Though I struggle to think of a sound counter to him.. checking him with faster pokes or scarfers honestly feels like the most reliable way of "dealing" with him... which is only a temporary solution to the problem.
Lately I've been thinking about employing some protects on my defensive pokes to scout the movesets of Greninjas I face.
Neither one of those can switch in, so if you're going to rely on them to check Greninja, you have to sacrifice something first. That's not exactly always ideal, even for offensive teams (I don't think offensive teams want to sacrifice something near the beginning of the battle.) Even then, when I see these guys come in right after something's been taken out, it's pretty much a dead giveaway that they're carrying a Choice Scarf, making them pretty easily played around (especially Latios since it's Pursuit weak.)
Honestly, Choice Scarf users are pretty overhyped as checks to Greninja. Sure, they can outspeed and kill it, but you're forgetting a few major points that become patently obvious in practice:
1. Nothing is stopping Greninja from switching out... Wait, does Scarf Gothitelle outspeed Greninja? Not that it's good, anyway.
2. Once your opponent knows what move you've locked yourself into, they can very easily take advantage of it... I mean, unless you decide to go for U-turn/Volt Switch but Landorus-T and Magneton are the only Scarfers that outrun Greninja that I can think of off the top of my head that use those moves
3. None of them can switch in (not even Keldeo if Greninja has Extrasensory) so you either have to sack something first or try to get in on a resisted hit (which doesn't always work out in your favor)
So, really, I think people are making Choice Scarf users seem like better checks to Greninja than they really are. I mean, yeah, sure, they're checks, but they're checks that are easily taken advantage of. And let's not forget that only a select few Pokemon can outspeed Greninja without a Choice Scarf or a Mega Evolution.
I did say it was only a temporary solution to the problem >_>
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