Goomy [QC 1/3]

[Orphic]

Overview
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+Wide special movepool.
+Unique ability with Gooey.
-Reduction in viability since the Tangela ban.
-Low physical defense, investment helps.
-Slow and not very powerful either.
-Lack of reliable recovery.

Counter
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name: Counter
move 1: Dragon Meteor
move 2: Dragon Pulse
move 3: Hidden Power Fighting / Hidden Power Ground / Hidden Power Fire
move 4: Sludge Bomb
ability: Gooey
item: Eviolite
EVs: 76 HP / 156 Def / 240 SpA / 36 Spe
IVs: 30 SAtk / 30 SDef / 3 Atk
nature: Modest

Moves
========

• Draco Meteor is Goomy's most powerful STAB, if you're comfortable Goomy can KO its opposing mon without Draco, or if you don't want the SpA drop, Dragon Pulse is also on the set.
• Hidden Power Fighting, with this EV spread, OHKO's Pawniard after Stealth Rock. 240+ SpA Goomy Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
  
• Hidden Power Ground has a 12% chance to 2HKO Pawniard and OHKOs Magnemite if Sturdy has been broken by SR or anything else.
• Hidden Power Fire hits Ferroseed for 4x damage whilst also landing super effective damage on Pawniard, Magnemite and Honedge. Although, it is worth noting that using HP Fire will cost you a point in speed.
• However: 240+ SpA Goomy Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 10-12 (47.6 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
  (10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12) This is the same for HP Fire.
• Sludge Bomb is for fairies, namely, Spritzee. 2HKO after Stealth Rock. 0.4% chance to 2HKO without SR. However, moonblast does OHKO back 75% of the time. Sludge Bomb is preferred because it has a higher poison chance (30%) than Sludge Wave and makes no difference to calcs.

Set Details
========

• Eviolite provides better bulk for Goomy to allow it to make the most of its Gooey ability.
• The EV spread means Goomy can 2HKO Pawniard and Spritzee and also have a lot of bulk.
• The IVs in the set are for HP Ground with the lowest Atk IV possible. IVs would be subject to change if you were to choose HP Fire.

Usage Tips
========

• Goomy has two STAB choices on this set, use them. Judge the situation as to whether using Dragon Pulse or Draco Meteor while dropping SpA is better for the situation you're in.

Team Options
========

• Goomy appreciates entry hazard support. Allows Goomy to OHKO Magnemite with HP ground after hazards and a guaranteed 2HKO on Spritzee.
• Spritzee is a nice defensive partner for Goomy, it absorbs dragon attacks aimed at Goomy (albeit very rare) and is a great special wall. Not to mention, Goomy appreciates wish support.
• Steel types like Magnemite and Pawniard make great teammates for Goomy because they can switch into Spritzee's trying to take out Goomy.
• Also, pokemon who appreciate the likes of Murkrow and Meditite gone will like having Goomy in support. Examples being the previously mentioned Magnemite and Pawniard along with Scraggy, Mienfoo and Timburr.

Other Options
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• Dragon Breath can be used for a paralysis chance over either Draco or Dragon Pulse, however it lacks power.
• Counter is a nice move on Goomy, however requires Goomy to take large hits from the likes of Pawniard and Murkrow.
• Sludge Wave has more power but doesn't affect calcs.
• Sap Sipper, while it may seem handy for sleep absorbing, can be not the case. Goomy 3HKO's Foongus with Dragon Pulse and does little under Foongus's max HP with Draco Meteor, meanwhile Foongus can attack you back or regain HP, where Goomy cannot. Sap Sipper makes a nice pivot but Foongus can beat Goomy one to one.

Checks & Counters
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**Set Up Attackers**: Scraggy, Tirtouga and other set up sweepers can utilize Goomys weak offensive power to set up and OHKO Goomy before he has a chance to counter. However, Dragon Breath can paralyze these counters and make Goomy's teams life a little easier.
**Fairy Types**: Goomy still doesn't hit that hard with Sludge Wave and Spritzee often carries Aromatherapy for Toxic. Not to mention, Spritzee is immune to Dragon Breath and can OHKO Goomy with Moonblast 75% of the time.
**Chinchou**: Probably the best Goomy counter, avoids Counter and Paralysis and can just hit Goomy with Scald until it faints.
**Misdreavus**: Missy is a good Goomy check as it can simply Nasty Plot and OHKO Goomy with a Shadow Ball. Missy does not like to be paralyzed by a Dragon Breath, although this is risky.

 

[Al_Alchemist]

Hey man, fun time working out Goomy with you. I know you're still in WIP, but here are my thoughts:

-In the overview, while all of that is "true" about Goomy, I feel like it may be a tad misleading given that Goomy's only set is the Counter one. Address that it is an interesting counter / check against physical attackers, because it has both Counter and Gooey. Take off the "+Terrific special defense" and "+Great typing in LC to resist fire and grass, good for sun offense." as both are kind of moot points when it lacks recovery, SpD investment, and HP Fire. It does have great typing in general, however. I'd say low, instead of horrible defense, investment does indeed help.

Counter
-SpAtk to SpA and Spd to Spe.

-With the given SpA investment, Dragon Breath can break Eviolite Misdreavus's subs.

-Hidden Power Ground 2HKOs non eviolite Pawniard, but not 116 SpD eviolite Pawniard even with SR (which is the standard analysis Pawniard). It does 2HKO 0 HP 36 SpD Eviolite Pawniard, however. It OHKOs Magnemite when Sturdy is broken also. Basically, it's there to hit Steel-Types not named Ferroseed, super-effectively.

-Slash Hidden Power Fire on Hidden Power Ground and mention that if you use Hidden Power Fire you lose an extra point in Speed. Hidden Power Fire hurts Chlorophyll Pokemon, SE on Ferroseed moreso than HP Fighting, still hits Magnemite, Honedge, and Pawniard for SE damage, basically if you care more about Ferroseed and Grass-Types than Magnemite and an extra point in Speed.

-Berry Juice and the given defensive investments allow it to survive stuff like non LO Brave Bird from Murkrow and Drain Punch from Meditite, effectively making them 3HKOs even with SR (most of the time for non LO Murkrow). Counter them back for an instant kill.

-You can 2HKO Spritzee with Sludge Wave + Stealth Rock, hit it on the switch in and you outspeed it, but be aware that Moonblast OHKOs you back 75% of the time.

160 SpA Goomy Sludge Wave vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 10-14 (37 - 51.8%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 14)

(Sludge Bomb only does 10 on average)

-If Toxic is chosen then 236 HP / 236 Def / 36 Spe Bold may be the optimal EV spread, which has a 50% chance to survive a LO Brave Bird from Murkrow at full HP.

-If Berry Juice is knocked off, then you can't restore HP (in set details section)

-Remove last two lines of set details section

-Usage Tips are kind of "surprise" oriented, which isn't good in an analysis where it's its only set. Say it can be a surprise to opponents who don't know what Goomy does, but it can also force physical attacking Pokemon out, or punish them if they use a contact move on Goomy, through Counter and/or Gooey.

-Team Options, dragon attacks are uncommon in Little Cup, but Steel-Types like Pawniard and Magnemite help take on opposing Spritzee's trying to switch into Goomy (if you don't hit it with Sludge Wave with SR up, then you'll be forced out or face a OHKO from Moonblast, or simply be Wish'd upon). Pokemon that like physical attackers, such as Meditite and Murkrow out of the way, or Pokemon that can benefit from Gooey's effect could be good options. Those Pokemon could include the aforementioned Pawniard and Magnemite, or Mienfoo, Timburr, Scraggy, etc. (Goomy as a Spritzee lure isn't that half bad of an idea, although risky). Don't mention Bronzor, lol.

-Other Options, Draco Meteor won't hit as hard as you'd want it to likely, and then you're left with -2 SpA. Dragon Pulse hits harder than Dragon Breath, but lacks a paralysis chance. Sludge Bomb has more of a poison chance than Sludge Wave, but doesn't have the 2HKO chance with SR that Sludge Wave has on Spritzee (5 less BP). HP Fighting doesn't OHKO Eviolite Pawniard (but Counter does, while HP Fight OHKOs non Eviolite Pawniard) and you lose an extra point in speed to cover the 30 IV in Def and Spe.

-Checks & Counters, mention that Dragon Breath has a chance to paralyze all those counters and that Spritzee OHKOs it back with Moonblast 75% of the time and is immune to Dragon Breath. RestTalk Chinchou with the appropriate amount of special defense investment is the best Goomy counter as it dodges Counter, paralysis and a 3HKO from HP Ground, while it can hit it back with Scald until it faints. Misdreavus is also a good check as it can simply use Nasty Plot then OHKO with Shadow Ball, although it wouldn't like being paralyzed from Dragon Breath's 30% paralysis chance.

Make these changes then QC 1/3

edit: Make sure it's clear that it is RestTalk Chinchou with the appropriate amount of special defense that you're talking about in the checks/counters section, otherwise Goomy could probably beat it one on one with HP Ground.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

I'll be honest, I don't think Goomy is a good user of Counter.

While it may work somewhat well as a surprise at first because players aren't familiar with it, this is going to be horrible later as most physical attackers have a move they can use to take advantage of the free turn they'll get when Goomy uses Counter. Murkrow and Mienfoo can set up Substitutes, Timburr can set up Bulk Up without caring about Toxic or Dragon Breath paralysis because it has Guts anyway, and Scraggy can set up in its face and heal off status with Shed Skin, and then proceed to sweep.

I'll post a QC post later, but while I'm thinking about this, try to think of a better set for Goomy, something that will work even after people start catching on to what it does. These analyses are going onsite to be a reference to players and it's staying there. After people stop being surprised by Counter, it's going to be worse setup bait than Duskull and Baltoy.

Sorry, but I don't think I can comfortably let this Counter set go onsite, unless someone can offer a large amount of justification for it.

 

[Shaymin :D]

(damn, this thing's movepool is so bad)

Well, can I try to come up with a set/recommend it?

Goomy @ Eviolite / Berry Juice
Ability: Gooey / Sap Sipper
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SAtk / 160 SDef / 80 Def
IVs: 30 Def/30 SpAtt/30 SpDef/30 Spe
Bold Nature
- Dragon Breath
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Filler

Dragon Breath for paralysis, and it's not like Goomy hits hard anyways. Sludge Bomb hits Fairies. HP Fighting hits Steels, specifically Pawniard, since Goomy doesn't fear Magnemite . Pretty simple. I seriously have no idea what to put on the last slot, though. The EVs give it OK bulk, actually tanking Special hits like a boss and can probably survive a Physical move as well. Sap Sipper actually gives Goomy switch-in oppertunities, making it an effective counter to something like Foongus, I guess n_n

It's the only Special Attacking Dragon except for Noibat, which doesn't have bulk, so I guess it has a niche.

 

[Orphic]

Changed Al_Alchemist Goddess Briyella

Please take a look :)

 

[Al_Alchemist]

I'll look over this again more thoroughly, but the new set looks just as good though. Briyella was right in that a Counter set is not the best idea for a set in Goomy's analysis, if it is its only main set on there at the very least.

For the Other Options section where you talk about HP Fighting, I'd refer to EV Spreads analyzed here: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/pawniard-qc-3-3.3496049/ when describing possible Pawniard spreads, as the 196 EV Spread (although it doesn't change in damage calculations, but for future reference) probably isn't the most common or effective Pawniard spread, both of which take more precedence in an analysis.

Mention that Hidden Power Fighting with 240 SpA EVs and Modest actually OHKOs 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard with SR damage, all of the time (since he has 21 HP).

240+ SpA Goomy Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)

Likewise, with SR up, HP Ground / HP Fire 2HKOs all of the time, rather than just 12% of the time:

240+ SpA Goomy Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 10-12 (47.6 - 57.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)

Also, something to think about is just changing Hidden Power Fighting to the main Hidden Power option, or slashing it on there as well, despite the drop in speed or bulk. This would mainly be due to the popularity and threat of Pawniard at the moment and that, I'm not completely sure of the significance of the extra point in speed or bulk, over threatening Pawniard.

(damn, this thing's movepool is so bad)

Well, can I try to come up with a set/recommend it?

Goomy @ Eviolite / Berry Juice
Ability: Gooey / Sap Sipper
Level: 5
EVs: 240 SAtk / 160 SDef / 80 Def
IVs: 30 Def/30 SpAtt/30 SpDef/30 Spe
Bold Nature
- Dragon Breath
- Sludge Bomb
- Hidden Power [Fighting]
- Filler

Dragon Breath for paralysis, and it's not like Goomy hits hard anyways. Sludge Bomb hits Fairies. HP Fighting hits Steels, specifically Pawniard, since Goomy doesn't fear Magnemite . Pretty simple. I seriously have no idea what to put on the last slot, though. The EVs give it OK bulk, actually tanking Special hits like a boss and can probably survive a Physical move as well. Sap Sipper actually gives Goomy switch-in oppertunities, making it an effective counter to something like Foongus, I guess n_n

It's the only Special Attacking Dragon except for Noibat, which doesn't have bulk, so I guess it has a niche.

Indeed, it actually does do special attacking better than Dratini, which is what incorrectly stopped me from pursuing that route at first when brainstorming with Orphic about Goomy. Just a note that Sap Sipper, while it provides an immunity to Grass-type attacks and Status from Foongus, you only 3HKO Foongus with Dragon Pulse, and Draco Meteor does a little under half of Foongus' max HP, most of the time. While Foongus can attack you back, wearing you down and you have no recovery, while Foongus either uses Synthesis or heals back via Regenerator to stop your Dragon Pulses and Draco Meteor's from killing it. It makes an okay Pivot with Sap Sipper, however, just be aware that Foongus probably beats you one on one.

--

I implore you guys to come up with better EV spreads, if possible, especially ones that could make use of Gooey's speed lowering effect. I'm not completely sure of the numbers dealing with Gooey, at the moment.

 

[Shaymin :D]

hmm, I somehow forgot Foongus has recovery .-.

Anyways, I would assume that -1 19 Speed would be 13 or 12 Speed, which Goomy does reach with some Investment (116 EVs for 12 Speed, 196 Speed for 13). However, running that many Ev's require you to give up Power or Bulk, neither which Goomy wants to give up.

If we do want to reach that speed, though, we also have to assume that we want to run some Hidden Power. I'll calc the best Ev spread I can get.

HP Fighting: The EVs would be 30 Def/30 SpAtt/30 SpDef/30 Speed, which pretty much affects all the categories Goomy would want to EV in :/. Anyways, assuming we want to KO Pawn as well, we would have 240 SpAtt/200 Speed, and 68 leftover EVs. ._. Thats kinda bad, considering its suppose to be a tank. So Speed investment is very bad on HP Fighting Goomy.

HP Ground: so 30 SpAtt/30 SpDef. Since we still want to 2HKO Pawn, we still need 240 SpAtt with Modest Nature. 196 Speed EV's reach 13 Speed. the leftover 72 EVs still do nothing to any of the rest of the stats ._. Still bad to invest in Speed.

HP Fire: 30 Att/30 SpAtt/30 Speed. Same SpAtt EVs and Nature for Pawn. Same speed investment. Same useless EVs. ._.

So, overall, I would say its Terribad to invest in Speed for -1 19's. Now, if -1 19 Speed is 12 Speed, that is a completely different case and this post is pretty useless. Still, investing in Power and Bulk is much better than Speed imo, and its not like it can abuse its speed anyways :/

 

[Orphic]

Hey Al_Alchemist, I've implemented your changes again, is the QC check still standing? I'm gonna get someone else to check it as well. Thought I'd point out that the calc I had for HP Fighting was no different if Pawniard had 196 SpD to whether it had 116. Therefore I had already mentioned it was a guaranteed OHKO after stealth rock, the calc you included was already in my analysis. Anyway, thanks for checking this again.

 

[Al_Alchemist]

It is still standing and yes, I said it was the same damage calculations anyway, just pointed out the common spread for future reference. I thought you didn't mention the part about SR making it a OHKO, sorry. And thank you for your contribution man :).

 

[Goddess Briyella]

• Please add more bulk and substance to the segments of the analysis. The segments are currently very bare and are lacking content. There's literally more information in my QC post here than there is in the analysis, and these are all relevant suggestions and edits. :)

• Draco Meteor, not Dragon Meteor. Also, make Dragon Pulse the first move, with Draco Meteor the second move. Make Sludge Bomb the third move with the slashed Hidden Power as the final move. Also add emphasis to the fact that Goomy has the strongest Draco Meteor in Little Cup, but also mention how using it can often give the opponent a free turn because the consequent -2 Special Attack drop will render Goomy only able to deal pitiful damage afterward and will thus become setup bait for many things, including Pawniard and Scraggy.

• Remove mentions of Counter from the analysis completely. The name of the set should be changed from Counter to Gooey Pivot.

• Add emphasis to the liability of the Gooey ability on such a physically frail Pokemon. The vast majority of moves that make contact on Goomy are physical, and Goomy's physical defense leaves much to be desired, even with Eviolite. Therefore, to make use of this ability without self-recovery, Wish support and hazard removal support are almost necessary to keep Goomy alive long enough to make it actually able to make a difference with its rare ability in battle. Something that needs to be highlighted is how Goomy particularly hates being hit by Knock Off, as not only is this a physical attack often backed by STAB and a good Attack stat, but its removal of Eviolite makes Goomy hardly able to take the physical contact moves that will activate Gooey, making its unique niche almost worthless outside of taking maybe one hit before going down.

• Mention Goomy's somewhat subtle ability to slow down setup sweepers or physical attackers in general even if it has to die in the process. For instance, Scarf Mienfoo may not be able to beat Tirtouga after a Shell Smash, but if +2 Tirtouga takes a Speed drop from Gooey before Scarf Mienfoo comes in afterward, it can outspeed and defeat it (provided its health isn't full so Sturdy would activate). Sometimes which Pokemon goes first makes the whole difference in 1 vs 1 situations in battle, and Gooey can be used to assure clutch Speed advantages against physical attackers; even if Goomy has to faint in the process, it can allow a teammate to outspeed a foe that would normally be faster and could knock it out before it could move. This is very significant and can probably be very lethal in the hands of a master, as it does not require a turn to activate this Speed decrease, all it takes is for Goomy to be made contact with.

• Talk about physical attackers that can get around Gooey's Speed drop and actually either not care about it or take advantage of it. Any and all users of U-turn don't mind making contact at all because they switch out directly afterward and therefore the Speed drop never matters. Defiant carriers such as Pawniard and Mankey actually gain +2 Attack by touching Goomy, thanks to its Gooey ability, and turn a disadvantage into a huge threat the same way they do with Sticky Web. Contrary Inkay can actually turn Gooey's Speed drop into a Speed boost and use it to become a fast threat; all Inkay has to do to get +1 Attack, +1 Defense, and +1 Speed in one turn is hit Goomy with Superpower, which is pretty scary.

• This set uses a neutral Speed nature and 36 Speed EVs, which gives Goomy a Speed stat of 11... pretty horrible. I'd like a list of all the viable physically inclined Pokemon that Goomy actually outspeeds after Gooey's Speed drop is applied to them. I'll be withholding QC until we can get a list of these Pokemon, and I'll come back to this later. I may request a conversion to a faster spread if it turns out that it can outspeed more notable things after this Speed drop if it has 12 Speed. I'll revisit this later.

Okay, sparktrain went out of his way to find out this information from my last bullet point, so here are his findings:

"With the given EV spread, Goomy hits 11 speed. This outspeeds 16 and under mons after a drop from Gooey, and ties with 17 speed mons. Speed ties aren't that impressive, so the most notable physical mons it outspeeds after Gooey are Pawniard and Meditite.

Goomy vs. Pawniard: Outspeeding Pawniard after a speed drop from Gooey isn't too important, since Hidden Power Fighting will take care of it on the same turn with some prior damage (240+ SpA Goomy Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 20-24 (95.2 - 114.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO) Not to mention, Full-health Pawniard is much more of an issue, since it gets 2x attack from the Gooey drop, Goomy usually misses the OHKO with HP Fighting, and Pawniard can KO with Sucker Punch the next turn, potentially giving it 3x attack. Pawn is admittedly easy to revenge with priority after that, but overall it's a 1 for 1, so Goomy doesn't provide the user with a significant advantage.

Goomy vs. Meditite: Goomy can potentially come out on top vs. Life Orb tits since they don’t run Ice Punch anymore, but loses to Eviolite/Scarf variants. Draco Meteor will OHKO 50% of the time after one turn of Life Orb recoil on tite. Not all that great, considering Goomy’s pretty much dead weight after taking around 80% from a Drain Punch.

There's some other random stuff it outspeeds like Tyrunt, Growlithe, Scraggy, and Vullaby after a Gooey drop, but it doesn't help much since it can't break through any of these except Tyrunt, who OHKOs it with Dragon Claw first. Giving Goomy 12 speed allows it to beat 17 speed mons and tie with 18 speed mons after Gooey, which lets it outspeed Archen, but that's pretty much it since Drilbur uses Earthquake which isn't affected by Gooey, and I can't think of any other physical 17 speed mons.

The Gooey effect would be a lot more useful if it could muscle past the physical mons it's supposed to after a Gooey drop, but it can't really do that most of the time. It does allow for a slower teammate to pick off the slowed foe more easily though, so it's definitely useful even if just for that. Goomy's #1 issue is that it lacks bulk without Eviolite, and lacks longevity without Berry Juice. A decent set that I've tested manages to have both with a turn of setup, so that's why I'm going to suggest a Rain Dance/Rest/Hydration set (it's not outstanding, but it's more durable, and what I've had the most success with). Basically, Goomy with Hydration, Rain Dance | Rest | Dragon Pulse | HP Fight/Sludge Bomb, more heavily invested in physical bulk. Still good versus sun (but it's barely a thing now), and it has the opportunity to heal off status/damage completely in one turn. HP Fighting to beat Pawniard, Dragon Pulse for STAB, it could even be Dragon Breath for the para chance... and Sludge Bomb, but Goomy really shouldn't stay in on Spritz anyway.

As far as Gooey Pivot goes, I say keep it at 11 speed, nothing too notable happens with twelve."


Goomy's pretty bad, but yea we can at least keep 11 Speed.


QC 2/3

 

[Orphic]

Thanks bri will implement everything tonight :)

 

[Goddess Briyella]

Orphic has dropped this analysis, so I'm locking it. If anyone would like to pick this analysis up, let me know.

 

[Goddess Briyella]

The new thread has been posted.