Finding Suspects Within the Current D/P Metagame (Discussion Thread)

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Well seeing as this is rarely discussed among the general population of battlers I figured I might as well give it a go.

If I hear another "I'm just so glad Garchomp is Uber" or "no way, we have to retest it when Platinum comes out" I'm going to beat you down with a spatula. We just voted the thing Uber, so I really don't want to get into another discussion of that. People tend to think on both sides and get very zealous of saying one thing or another and I don't want to deter this thread into another one of those tl'dr ones that are just plain boring, so without further ado...

Based on the dussion of this thread I am going to make a poll that'll have the potential suspects discussed here and then we can see which potential suspects people see the need to be tested or banned.

Suspects that I think need to be tested or banned:

1. Deoxys-S: This is the fastest Taunter, Spiker, Screener, etc. in the whole game. If you want to strike first you need to use a priority move.

There is a lot of uncertainty of what to do against it because of its massive movepool. Its HP is abysmal, but it makes up for that with its other slightly above average stats (for OU). You can EV it to outrun most Choice Scarf users and Dragon Dancers. After one DD Deoxys-S can kill Gyarados, Salamence, Dragonite, etc. with one Thunderbolt or Ice Beam.

My favored strategy has it receiving Nasty Plots from Togekiss. If you can get a couple Nasty Plots to it D-S pretty much becomes like a pseudo Garchomp.

With a +SAtk Nature, 216 EVs in SAtk, Life Orb, and two Nasty Plots passed to it Psychic will 2HKO a 252 HP/4 SDef Blissey (Damage: 380 - 448). With Superpower that's achieved with less setup, but then you can pretty much just sweep the rest of the team with the Nasty Plots passed to you.

My suggestion: Get this thing to Uber ASAP

2. Stealth Rock: This move is the only move in the whole game that can hit anything (except Magic Guard Clefable) with 100% accuracy. There is some way to avoid damage from any other move in the game.

This is pretty much common knowledge now, but:

• 1/4 Rock Resist: 3.125% damage
• 1/2 Rock Resist: 6.25% damage
• Neutral to Rock: 12.5% damage
• 2x Rock Effectiveness: 25% damage
• 4x Rock Effectiveness: 50% damage

That means in a Sandstorm or Hail your Charizard, Moltres, etc. can't switch in twice without recovery or they simply die, the item: Focus Sash is pretty much useless, etc.

Spikes and Toxic Spikes take three and two turns respectively to setup and do not hit Flying types and Levitaters, but it only takes one turn to get Stealth Rock up to damage the opponent.

Many well built teams have Taunters or Ghost types to prevent the removal of Spikes in general, so good luck trying to not take damage from it.

Let's take a different perspective to this:
Let's say I have 2 pokémon that are neutral to it, 2 that are weak, and 2 that resists it on my team.

If I do not switch unless my pokémon are knocked out, I don't get rid of SR and one of the pokémon that is neutral to Rock is out when SR is first thrown into play.

• 2 Resistant to Rock gets switched in once = 6.25% * 2 = 12.5%
• 1 neutral = 12.5%
• 2 weak = 25% * 2 = 50%

So, basically this will do damage equal to 75% of the health of one pokémon.

Okay, obviously we know that there's a lot of switching in this game, so let's say that whole team gets hurt by SR twice.

• 2 Resistant to Rock each hit by SR twice = 25% damage
• 2 netural each hit by SR twice = 50% damage
• 2 weak each hit by SR twice = 100% damage

So, if you switch all of your pokémon in twice to get hit by SR that equates to 175% unavoidable damage.

It isn't uncommon to switch a good 20 times within a battle and let's say the damage taken on average was neutral and you couldn't get rid of Stealth Rock. 12.5% * 20 = 250% unavoidable damage.

That's like killing nearly half one's team.

In Ubers this greatly hinders Ho-Oh's usage and hurts Rayquaza as Deoxys-A can set it up without a problem holding a Focus Sash.

In Standard a vastly majority of teams carry this move forcing pokémon such as Charizard and Moltres to not see much usage.

In Underused Areodactyl easily sets down SR with its base 130 speed.

The usage of Stealth Rock encourages the usage of the few pokémon that can use Rapid Spin, which encourages the usage of Ghost types, discourages the usage of pokémon most affected by itm etc. In short I believe it is over centralizing the metagames.

My suggestion: A Stealth Rockless metagame needs to be desperately tested.

That's the two biggest concerns of mine and I am interested on hearing what your suggestions and thoughts are.

 

[Pyong]

Ok, i agree with deoxys-s "uberness" but in a chompless metagame, Stealth Rock is a must.

Without Chomp, Salamence is the top dragon. Can you imagine Salamence without Stealth Rock? Now that is scary. Can you imagine Gyarados in a Stealth rockless metagame? Well, i can and that give me chills.

Garchomp was the top threat, and without him, these guys are rising.

Well, not only offensive threats, but defensive ones are going to become real bitches to deal with.
Zapdos for example. He hardly dies even with Stealth Rock.


So, imo, Stealth rock keeps the game balance.
However, that 50% in the 4X weaks is to much, but it's better than removing one of gyarados/etc weakness.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Ok, i agree with deoxys-s "uberness" but in a chompless metagame, Stealth Rock is a must.

Without Chomp, Salamence is the top dragon. Can you imagine Salamence without Stealth Rock? Now that is scary. Can you imagine Gyarados in a Stealth rockless metagame? Well, i can and that give me chills.

Garchomp was the top threat, and without him, these guys are rising.

Well, not only offensive threats, but defensive ones are going to become real bitches to deal with.
Zapdos for example. He hardly dies even with Stealth Rock.


So, imo, Stealth rock keeps the game balance.
However, that 50% in the 4X weaks is to much, but it's better than removing one of gyarados/etc weakness.

Salamence and Gyarados were dealt with fine back in R/S/E by stuff that could use Ice Beam and Thunderbolt respectively. With the advent of choice items it is possible to hit them after a DD and still OHKO. Just imagine if Moltres were used more too, it'd fire off a Wisp to burn them, right?

Cress still says lol, I'm a wall.

Also Zapdos kills them both in one hit pretty reliably, but suffers from SR too, which could prevent it from doing so.

 

[Bourbon]

Salamence and Gyarados didn't have the Life Orb to toy with, or good STAB moves... yeah, Hidden Power Flying, woot woot -_-

 

[Slobroking]

Stealth Rock is a necessary evil to hit Flying types. It's too bad that it hits EVERYTHING else besides Flying types though.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Well with Life Orb there's a tremendous liability as well. In standstorms/hail think about taking 16% each turn... Its not pretty.

People haven't had much of a chance to play in a Stealth Rockless environment. Think about something like Jolly Choice Scarf Areodactyl. I mean that thing would outrun most DDmences and DDdos with two DDs under their belts.

Edit: Also Areo's not given too much of a chance to shine in OU because of SR and Deoxys-S.

 

[Arash]

if stealth rock bugs you that much, just use clefable...

 

[Thorns]

if stealth rock bugs you that much, just use clefable...

Alternatively, you could use a spinner. Though I agree Deoxys-S should be banned, but I can't be bothered playing Suspect.

 

[SubVersion]

Your argument for Deoxy's uberness is basically "Deoxys-S is fast, opponents are uncertain how to react to it, and it can kill stuff easily after being BP'd two Nasty Plots!". That's pretty weak. While I agree it may be uber (only because of its Dual Screen set), the reasons you gave aren't really valid ones.

In terms of Stealth Rock, with Salamence now having Outrage and being as strong as SD YacheChomp after a Dragon Dance + Life Orb, I think that alone is almost worth keeping Stealth Rock in the game even if it is a "broken" move. While it may keep stuff like Charizard and Articuno from doing much, particularly good Pokemon still manage to become OU with Stealth Rock around (Yanmega being a shining example) and I'd rather a couple of Pokemon become BL/UU than certain Pokemon - such as Salamence and Gyarados - becoming even more centralizing than they are already (remember the distinction between "centralizing" and "overcentralizing", here).

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Alternatively, you could use a spinner. Though I agree Deoxys-S should be banned, but I can't be bothered playing Suspect.

Using a spinner isn't that simple. Most well built SR teams have a taunter or two or a Ghost. Given that many of the spinners have a hard time with fighting ghosts as well its not too easy to get rid of SR.

Your argument for Deoxy's uberness is basically "Deoxys-S is fast, opponents are uncertain how to react to it, and it can kill stuff easily after being BP'd two Nasty Plots!". That's pretty weak. While I agree it may be uber (only because of its Dual Screen set), the reasons you gave aren't really valid ones.

In terms of Stealth Rock, with Salamence now having Outrage and being as strong as SD YacheChomp after a Dragon Dance + Life Orb, I think that alone is almost worth keeping Stealth Rock in the game even if it is a "broken" move. While it may make stuff like Charizard and Articuno from doing much, particularly good Pokemon still manage to become OU with Stealth Rock around (Yanmega being a shining example) and I'd rather a couple of Pokemon become BL/UU than certain Pokemon - such as Salamence and Gyarados - becoming even more centralizing than they are already (remember the distinction between "centralizing" and "overcentralizing", here).

If Salamence gets too powerful we could bump it up to Ubers, right?

To be fair I really never have a problem with dual screens, I just status and set up until they fade. You also got Brick Break and Weaviles aren't too uncommon.

At least wouldn't you say it would be worthy to test out a SRless environment? Wouldn't it be kinda exciting to give pokémon that haven't gotten too much of a chance to shine to do so?

 

[SubVersion]

If Salamence gets too powerful we could bump it up to Ubers, right?

In Pokemon, we only ban stuff that is overcentralizing. If it turns out that Stealth Rock is the only thing that stops Sally/Gyara from being overcentralizing, why on earth would we ban Sally/Gyara when we could simply un-ban Stealth Rock?

Wouldn't it be kinda exciting to give pokémon that haven't gotten too much of a chance to shine to do so?

The aim of competitive Pokemon is not to "give every Pokemon a chance". This mentality also lends itself to be used in favor of banning everything in OU, after all, "wouldn't it be kinda exciting to give UU Pokemon that haven't gotten too much of a chance to shine to do so?"

 

[XtrEEmMaShEEn3k2]

2. Stealth Rock: This move is the only move in the whole game that can hit anything with 100% accuracy. There is some way to avoid damage from any other move in the game.

Magic Guard Clefable. Edit your post NOW!

 

[animenagai]

CLAFABLE? your answer to SR is CLAFABLE (i'm talking specifically to arash here)? is it just me or does clafabe not prevent SR damage to any of its team members? it solves nothing.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

In Pokemon, we only ban stuff that is overcentralizing. If it turns out that Stealth Rock is the only thing that stops Sally/Gyara from being overcentralizing, why on earth would we ban Sally/Gyara when we could simply un-ban Stealth Rock?

Because SR might break more of the metagame than helps?

The aim of competitive Pokemon is not to "give every Pokemon a chance". This mentality also lends itself to be used in favor of banning everything in OU, after all, "wouldn't it be kinda exciting to give UU Pokemon that haven't gotten too much of a chance to shine to do so?"

What's the point of doing the same thing over 'n over to the point where it becomes boring predictable? Bronzong is sent out, Bronzong used Stealth Rock after putting something to sleep, etc.

You don't know if something is overcentralizing something else unless it is tested. I'm calling for a testing of a SRless metagame, not the outright banning.

 

[LightWolf]

Well we could make SR to be a 2 turn set up hazard, whit only the second layer doing super effective damage, don't know if this can be done, but it would be harder to set it up like this and it would be easier to spin it away.

 

[Marisa Kirisame]

LightWolf, you can change how moves work. That's comparable to lowering Garchomp's base attack to 110 so it isn't that bad anymore.

With Stealth Rock all over the place when I build my teams I make sure everything is resistant or neutral to Stealth Rock because I don't feel like shifting my team around just to put something that spins Stealth Rocks away.

Anyways, I am in favor of testing a metagame with no Stealth Rock and see what results we get, including a new OU list for the Ladder without Stealth Rock just to see exactly how much some Pokémon rise in usage.

 

[Lou Cypher]

Yes, let us ban Stealth Rock. Is it just me or do I smell a Focus Sash rampage on its way?

 

[SMZ]

Testing Stealth Rock is a good thing. This will obviously affect the usage of certain Pokemon who are weak to it.

 

[cim]

So... this thread appears to be "DISCUSS EXACTLY WHAT I THINK"

Uh... so, Deoxys 2HKOs Blissey with 2 Nasty Plots passed to it, huh? Uh... that's not an argument for Uber, as anything's lethal with 2 +2 boosts passed to it.

Stealth Rock isn't "unavoidable", you can Recover off the damage and Rapi Spin negates it. It's like saying Seismic Toss is broken because it does 100 unavoidable damage per swtich-in (BUT WHAT ABOUT GHOSTS, CHRIS is countered with 'there are few ghosts' just like 'there are few rapid spinners')

Neither of these reasons fit any definition for Uber that I know of.

 

[LonelyNess]

I'd also like to point out that in the course of a match there isn't always time to spin before it's necessary to bring out your 4X weak Pokemon. Let's say you use Moltres as your Infernape counter (it is a great one at that by the way) and Donphan as your Spinner, first turn they bring out Deoxys-E, set up SR. You can't send in Donphan because that's just wasting a Pokemon because it will get killed by Ice Beam. So you bring in Scizor. They bring in Infernape, and now what do you do? You can't go to spin and THEN go to Moltres, Donphan will be killed before it gets a chance to get the spin off. You're now trapped and likely doomed to lose because you chose to use a 4X Rock weak Pokemon to counter something.

And don't say I'm using Theorymon, beacause I had a team that worked EXACTLY like this.

Also, I'd like to point out that using Rapid Spin as a means of saying "Stealth Rock isn't broken" is a joke. Using Stealth Rock generates instant advantage to whoever uses it. Rapid Spin doesn't generate advantage for you, it just eliminates advantage from your opponent. Rather than using Rapid Spin, it is always more advantageous to use some other move. Why bother babying a Pokemon along, and hindering your team by including a Rapid Spinner, when you can play successfully AND WIN by not doing so? It doesn't make sense to do it unless you're willingly admitting that you're not playing to win, in which case, get off this site.

Stealth Rock also ALWAYS punishes the player for one of the most fundamental and necessary actions in the game, switching. And this isn't like the punishment of Spikes and Toxic Spikes because not only does Stealth Rock only take one turn to set up fully, but it hits everything in the game except for Clefable. Getting one turn in a game of Pokemon is easy... anyone can do that. Getting three turns to set up full spikes is earned, and that should be rewarded.

Lastly, the argument that SR keeps certain Pokemon in check. I believe is also totally ridiculous. You realize that Stealth Rock helps a lot of these Pokemon reach certain 2HKO's that aren't possible without them? Just because they are going to be defensively better without Stealth Rock doesn't mean that it outweights the offensive hit that they are going to take.

Stealth Rock has proven itself to be overpowered not only in theorymon but in practice, why it hasn't been tested until now is beyond me. It should be a suspect on the ladder just like Deoxys-E is now and Garchomp was before it. If anything, it should atleast be up for testing.

 

[StarmanXL]

Wait, perhaps I'm missing something here: aren't Deoxys-S and SR already going to be tested anyway? If so, why poll if they should be tested or not? Or is this supposed to be more like a general-Stark equivalent of "Order of Operations"?

 

[Kagster123]

Uh Myth... I just would like you to know that taunt doesn't block rapid spin...lol.

 

[Lunar]

I'd still love to see the game without T-Tar personally. Negating every non-Recover healing move in the game, not to mention Leftovers, while simultaneously setting up damage, boosting your Sp.Def, as well as ruining setups involving weather, all at the cost of switching in one of the most threatening Pokemon in the game, has always seemed a little overpowered to me.

 

[cim]

It's true that Stealth Rock makes some Pokémon, like Moltres, unviable. No one says otherwise. But to an extent, everything in Pokémon makes some Pokémon or strategy unviable. You may be pissed that your Leafeon has trouble sweeping wtih Steel-types everywhere, but that doesn't mean you ban the Steel-types because it stops your Leafeon. Perhaps you're upset that your Double Team theme team has troubles wtih Specs Lucario, that doesn't mean you ban it. Every Pokémon has inbuilt weaknesses to ubiquitous threats in the metagame.

It's really not that much of a stretch to ban Stealth Rock because it makes Flying-types less viable. I honestly don't think we should be actively trying to start a metagame of making certain Pokémon or strategies more viable, because it's a slippery slope. At what point do you draw the line that a strategy "should be" viable?

To be honest, one can make anything sound broken if you word it right. This is part of the problem of a subjective definition for Uber; if you can convince people that your hype for something is the absolute truth, then they'll do anything to get what you want banned. Nidoking can do 53% or more to every single Pokémon in the game. He has no 4x weaknesses and fairly good defenses, making him a little harder to revenge kill. Plus he can hit everything with STAB SE attack against him for SE damage too! He's also pretty fast, attacks from both sides of the spectrum, and can't even be stalled out with Toxic OR Thunder Wave! Nevermind that he's not used that much in Standard, it's because people think he's too cheap! He's Uber!

Lunar, Roost and Slack Off are unhindered by Sandstorm, and Hippowdon does the same thing, no? While it doesn't

Also, DD Life Orb Outrage Salamence is slightly weaker than SD YacheChomp, and Salamence is much much much much easier to kill with Ice Beam than a YacheChomp.

Why do I find myself agreeing more and more with Colin / AA over time? I'm confusing myself.

 

[Chileno4Live]

I think when you guys banned chomp, it was a relieve. But if you're going to ban everything that looks broken isn't going to work. Suspect might work, i'd say test it. But it'll change the metagame to much to have SR banned. More Common sweepers like Salamence and Gyarados can switch in with ease, and it is more difficult to actually kill Zapdos. Ninjask also will be used much more, and Yanmega would provide even more from it. Then you say: ''then lets ban Salamence''. If you do that, just ban the whole OU metagame and i'll go to UU metagame because that will be to ghey. Having Salamence gone is just not good. Even banning Gyarados is a ridiculous idea.

Deoxys-E (S) is a pokemon to consider. It's movepool is very big and it's a speedy pokemon in general, even it's defenses are quite good, better than the average sweeper. He changed the metagame alot, i think. As people are using Scarfed pokemon much more, i've seen Scarf weaviles, and i was like WTF!

I'd say test those suspects, but you'll see most people not going to play in suspect, only the reason SR banning is 2 ghey. Deoxys-E should be considered like i said.