Policy Review End of Generation 7 Planning

[snake]

I'm not sure if I quite like the idea of an Ultra Beast CAP anymore. In fact, I'm not sure if I really like the idea of CAP27 happening in Generation 7 anymore. Here's the short of it:

• Any CAP should have at least 4 weeks of play before we start a new CAP. This is to handle any PRC threads that need to be addressed and to let the meta shift due to the previous CAP dropping in. CAP26 will be shaking this metagame up a lot, unlike CAP25. I know the timeframe is a little arbitrary.
• In 2016, CAP22 (Kerfluffle) began on June 10th, ended on October 28th, and had about 3-4 weeks of playtime before Sun and Moon came out on November 18th. Assuming the same release date, and that we started CAP27 right now and takes the same amount of time to finish as Kerfluffle, that means that finishing CAP26, playtesting CAP26, building CAP27, and playtesting CAP27 will have to share about 5 weeks total. Even though Kerfluffle took longer than most CAPs, a good bit had to do with the next generation's hype, and I don't see that going away for Generation 8.
• If we were to constrain CAP27's process by a month compared to Kerfluffle, we'd have about 9 weeks to finish/playtest CAP26 and build/playtest CAP27, but we're cutting it super short with that timeframe. And that's not even excusing that 4 weeks should be MINIMUM amount of playtesting, with longer - about 6 weeks - being better, especially if we actually do playtests for CAP26 and CAP27.
• Basically, even if it's just barely possible to do CAP27 within Generation 7, I don't think we should take it, because we're counting weeks at this point, and that's not really safe. I really don't want another Cawmodore, where CAP27 releases after Sword and Shield drops. No one will want to playtest that, not when a whole new generation of Pokemon and mechanics is coming out.

Now to counterpoint why an Ultra Beast CAP wouldn't fix this issue:

• Reduced Timeframe by removing the Ability Stage entirely and bounding flavor stages for smaller submission windows

Removing Ability stage removes about 2 weeks from a CAP Process, sure, but other relevant flavor stages wouldn't be bounded by smaller submission windows. Art submissions are dependent on competitive discussion anyway, so it doesn't count. Otherwise, I don't see how movepool, pokedex entry, name, etc. have their time reduced. Furthermore, the typing stage remains the same, the stat limits stage and stat submissions stage remain the same except for restrictions on the actual numbers (which doesn't reduce timeframe), and movesets discussion wouldn't be any different. Realistically, we're shortening process by 2 weeks-ish, and I don't think that's a safe enough plan to force a framework upon CAP27. It would be better if we were shaving off a month or more from CAP27, but I don't see how we'd do that.

Now, if we don't do CAP27, we shouldn't just twiddle our thumbs in the meantime. CAP has a lot of room to improve itself as Generation 7 closes and Generation 8 begins. Metagame resources (VR, Sample Teams, and analyses especially) can be finalized, the metagame can fully stabilize to CAP26's presence, and the metagame council can undergo nerfing processes if necessary; thus making future CAPTTs have Gen 7 CAP as a reliable, stable metagame that has good resources, unlike Generation 6, which has not only outdated but just flat-out incomplete resources. Metagame players, who represent a sizable chunk of the discussing portion of CAP, won't have to split their time between the end of CAPTT and the beginning of CAP27. We can work on PRC threads for issues CAP is facing now and have good discussions that aren't rushed by wanting CAP27 started ASAP. We can explore the possibility of art competitions for artists.

While I'm always enthusiastic about new making new CAPs, I really don't want to risk it running right into the end of the Generation because it, like Cawmodore, it won't be a fulfilling experience. I think we stand a better shot of making a plan to improve CAP as a whole for the next few months and then start Generation 8 off on a strong foot.

 

[G-Luke]

I oppose CAP 27 taking place the 7th Generation, because of the main worry of creating another Cawmordore incident, or even worse, leave us with a CAP that only has 2 or 3 weeks of Gen 7 gameplay, which would leave USM Resources outdated, placing us in the same situation that we have found ourselves in with ORAS.

Now the main problem people think is that, what will we be doing with our free time? What we should do is utilize this downtime, to take an inward look into CAP on a whole and make moves to improve areas that may be lacking or have fallen to the wayside.

• Developing the Metagame: Between the addition of CAP 26 which will certainly be a big game changer, the looming nerfing process of Aurumoth, and several tournaments (CAPTT, CAP 26 Playtest Tour, and others), we will have plenty of time on our hands to further develop and improve the USM metagame. CAP 26's addition will most likely cause a shuffle in viability rankings, and a change in what Pokémon are used and what sets currently are ran. With that in mind, the meta will probably take a bit longer than usual to adapt and settle. Also, the nerfing of Aurumoth, currently CAP's most potent and influencial sweeper is soon underway, and no matter what the result, will probably cause several new threats and strats to pop up. In the case of the tournaments, they will both probably overlap and take place for a total of roughly six weeks. After that, we can use other small-scale tournaments to help bring in fresh new users who generally use these tours as jumping on points into CAP.
• Fixing Ladder: I'll keep this short, as I plan on going into more detail in a PRC dedicated to this issue, but TL;DR: The CAP Ladder has serious issues, and I believe we should take the time to seriously look into ways to improve the ladder before the end of gen 7.
• CAP 3D Models: Thus proposal is pretty simple - with the added time on our hands our models cam get to work on crearing 3D models for our older models, instead of having to power through a week or two to get up the latest one. This gives the project a better look, with CAPs finally having things outside of Gen 4 and Gen 5 sprites.
• CAP Prevos: After the updating of the CAPs, the task of updating prevos went underway, and while it was moving steadily along, we had to pause to create the newer ones (Mumbao, Fawnifer, Electrelk, Smogecko, Smoguana, Swirlpool, Corabalis and now CAP 26's tot). With not having to worry about creating more new prevos, we can focus on not only finishing up Prevo updates, but we can also move forward with the creation of the last of the Gen 4 unfinished prevos that currently only have names and outdated sprites (if lucky).

While we should wait until tomorrow when a definitive due date will most likely appear before deciding on what we should do, think we should still bear in mind things like these before hastily making a decision. As to my thoughts on a Ultra Beast CAP 27 if we do decide to create one this gen, I would definitely support it, as it gives us an interesting avenue to explore and opens up concepts that would work better under an UB Framework.

 

[Jordy]

Sorry for the short post, but to add onto G-Luke's post above I'd also like to suggest that we can use this time to look into the process itself. I personally believe that the process should be much more flexible to be able to accommodate for a chosen concept (CAP 25 made this issue pretty apparent I believe) and have heard from quite a few other people that they agree with this, so I believe that it would be worth looking into.

 

[SHSP]

I've created a new thread with these posts from the UB thread at the suggestion of Birkal to discuss this and other options relating to the time between now and Gen 8's start without derailing that thread. As for my thoughts, I have this to say:

In the past week or so, there's been a lot of trepidation about the gap between the rapidly approaching end of CAP26, and the arrival of the next main series games in the winter (or fall, whatever it is). There's been a few camps of ideas: some want to quickly start CAP27, pushing one final mon through before gen 7 closes, and others have suggested alternative projects to send off this gen with an Ultra Beast or Alolan Form of a CAPmon. I'm here to suggest a different angle: waiting it out.

There's a few general groups of reasons why I think this is CAP's best option as of this moment. The first is CAP27 itself in the event we decide to go for it now, and are able to fit it in. CAP 26 is closing, yes, but it's not quite done, and the metagame we base CAPs off of is going to be feeling the effects of CAP26's release, plus the Aurumoth nerf. If we want to fit CAP27 in before Gen 8's release, then we're going to have to cut it close, especially with the now confirmed November release of Sword and Shield. We'd run a very serious risk of working too fast off faulty information, starting too early in an unsettled metagame and forced to work with assumptions early on that may not be the case late. If we want CAP27 to have any real playtesting in Gen 7, it's unlikely to be a lot, and it's likely going to close USUM CAP as a metagame that is underdeveloped and lacking solid resources, assuming CAP27 makes any sizable impact or change. This issue isn't going to go away with a faster process like Ultra Beasts or Alolan Forms, especially considering the need to go through PRC discussion and approval beforehand. I don't doubt that we could start CAP27 soon, and finish it with some time to spare before gen 8. What I do doubt is if it's the correct choice for CAP to push a mon out with little time before and after considering what that means for this entire generation once its done.

Instead of forcing a CAP to come out, I would lean towards more of a period where CAP is able to look back and "finish" gen 7. This has been a generation where we've taken a lot of forward steps, particularly in the metagame side, where we've improved on our tournament structure and our resources greatly. Having this break before gen 8 arrives would allow us to continue this growth significantly: We'd be able to come to understand a post-CAP26, post-Auru nerf metagame with a stability that past gens have not been able to have, with Gen 6 having Kerfluffle added shortly before it ended and Gen 5 with the addition of Cawmodore. This in turn would allow us to have up to date, well produced resources like sample teams, the Viability Rankings, and most notably analyses on the Smogon Dex. There has been critique of the resources for Gen 6, both in terms of how they were managed and how outdated they ended, and this is a chance to avoid that and to start an Old Gen version of Gen 7 off on a much stronger foot.

In addition to the metagame aspect, the process side could also appreciate a bit of downtime. I'm going to begin with a few quotes from an earlier Discord conversation about this idea:

StephanXPM 2019-05-28 at 10:29 AM
coming from a purely flavor standpoint, imo it might be nice to have the time to focus on completing some of the remaining 3d models instead of working on a new cap

snake_rattler 2019-05-28 at 10:27 AM
there's still a lot we can get done
hell we can have tours and stuff for meta, art competitions for artists

Just two examples, but a good idea of some community driven, community focused possibilities in this void. In addition, this would also be a great time to take on some challenges to the process that have been observed over the generation. There's been talk about a review of the process in terms of the order of the stages, making the process itself more adaptable to fit certain concepts better and so on. This gives us an opportunity to look at gen 7 in a retrospective, make PRC threads to take a deep look at some of the concerns raised through the gen and adapt. We could also look at updates which seem to loom on the horizon with a lot left unresolved from our past ones. All in all, this period of time can be used to come into gen 8 rejuvenated, refreshed and with improvements made to both process and metagame infrastructure and stability.

 

[Birkal]

I'm gonna go ahead and actually disagree with the above posters: I think we should do a CAP27 before Gen 8. Now that we know that the initial Gen8 meta is going to look very different from SM, I'm going to put forward two mock calendars to demonstrate how this would look with and without it.

Gen7 CAP27 Proposed Calendar

Mid-June - CAP26 is completed​

End of June - Concept Assessment begins​

End of September - CAP27 concludes​

October & November - Two months of playtesting in the final SM meta​

November 18th - Pokemon Sword & Shield Release​

December & January - Policy Review Committee, and enjoying Gen8​

End of February - Sword & Shield meta is calm enough for us to begin CAP28​

Gen8 CAP27 Proposed Calendar

Mid-June - CAP26 is completed​

July, August, September, October, & November - five months of playing the finalized CAP meta​

November 18th - Pokemon Sword & Shield Release​

December & January - Policy Review Committee, and enjoying Gen8​

End of February - Sword & Shield meta is calm enough for us to begin CAP27​

I won't purport that there aren't advantages to the latter calendar, but I think we need to look critically at the time this project spends not making Pokemon. The pre-Gen8 CAP27 calendar will leave us with a gap of roughly six months without making a Pokemon. That's a pretty big time gap, and one that we haven't had for a long time. Alternatively, the post-Gen8 CAP27 calendar leaves us with about nine months without making a Pokemon, something we haven't done since Tomohawk. Three additional months can add up.

The Create-A-Pokemon Project isn't some sort of factory that is required to churn out Pokemon -- far from it. But as I've always said: a happy CAP is one that's making a Pokemon. It's what draws in new users, it what gets us debating and chatting, and most importantly, it's what keeps us active as a community. It keeps our artists drawing, our competitive players battling and testing, and our audience spectating.

There's a lot of good things that we could do over those nine months, I agree, but experience has taught me that time not doing anything doesn't "free up" time for users. If something is considered a task we "have to do," and no one feels passion about it, it likely won't get done, especially on a Pokemon website that we all use for free and fun. We can still finish out CAP metagame balance patches, finish analyses, and nail down PRC concurrently with CAP27; there's nothing saying we can't or won't. If people want to do pre-evolutions and models, they are welcome to participate in them right now, regardless of what's going on with CAP26. And even if we do start CAP27 shortly, we still have six months to do those things while we wait for the Gen8 meta to clean up.

At the end of the day, I don't have too much of a horse in this race -- I've been around for 14 CAPs now, and I've had my fill. I can certainly wait nine months to begin working on a new one. But if I was a newer contributor to this project, which many of you are, you should absolutely pause and consider how long nine months of not making a Pokemon is. PRC topics are NOT FUN. And while making models, finishing pre-evos, and working on the ladder can be fun and worthwhile, they simply pale in comparison to the joy of making a new Pokemon (at least for me, and I feel for at least some others). Again, I'm more than happy to utilize the time to tighten some loose screws around here (I have at least one PRC thread cooking), but I think y'all need to seriously consider the implications of going nine months without making a Pokemon in a project that is ultimately about making Pokemon.

 

[Mova]

I don't have much to say (as usual), but I would not mind making one final CAP during Gen 7. If we waited until the Galar Dex was released, it would indeed take a lot more time until a CAP starts. Even the wait between 25 and 26 wasn't exactly the most fun time for me, to be honest.

 

[jas61292]

I don't have a ton to add here, but I would just like to agree with Birkal in that I believe "a happy CAP is one that's making a Pokemon." That does not mean we have to go all business as usual until the new games hit. If we think a full normal project is cutting it too close, maybe we could decide to do something different that is shorter. But I think it would be a poor choice to just sit and not make any pokemon for 8 or 9 months. I've been through periods of long gaps between projects. Those were mostly not done intentionally, but by issues that were outside our control. But they were not fun, and I'd advise against self imposing such a gap.

 

[MrDollSteak]

As a new PRC member my post is naturally not going to be as thoughtfully expressed, but I agree with Birkal that some effort should be made to get another CAP going. As much as I can see the benefit of being able to catch up with other resources, CAP is at its most active and interesting when healthy discussion about new CAPs are occurring. CAP 26 is my first example of a project followed through to the end of the process and I can say that it was a really enjoyable experience, especially in the early stages debating concepts. Discord and the forums were active in a way that they weren't during the gap, and I worry that such a long break would instead of garnering interest in the metagame and side projects would in fact lower engagement.

I do agree that a normal CAP process would be cutting it fine, so I would be happy to support either a UB or alolan CAP. My personal preference is an Alolan CAP as that strikes me as a more interesting goodbye to Gen 7 than a UB and could revivify interest in old designs.

 

[Okamu]

Personally, as I'm just getting back into the swing of things here, I don't really incline towards either outcome. However, I think Birkal makes a fair point. As such, if we do decide that the best course of action is to forgo both the full-length and shortened CAP projects, I think it might be good to break out FlashCAPs, but set to a regular schedule during the months between the end of CAP 26 and start of the first Gen 8 project. I think doing so would offer people that still want to partake in the process a way to do so during the downtime, keeping interest in the overall system lively. I don't really have an idea on how often this would be, if we would adopt a different format for them, or whether they should be on Showdown or Discord; additionally, there's a lot of 'ifs' before it would come to this, but I thought I would still bring it up as a way to make the potential lack of a project not so overbearing.

Another thing that I think should be considered is the relative importance of preserving the Gen 7 meta in light of the new information on Sword and Shield. We don't know what Pokémon will be missing in Galar and this means many of the strategies from the current meta will be flying out the window. There is a meta shift associated with any generational shift due to new Pokémon and abilities, but this is the first time we'll be losing options. This may change how we should look at the importance of finishing Gen 7 out with a strong resource bank. Concurrently working on a project and resources is no doubt an option, but I wonder if splitting attention of the people doing the write-ups is wise.

Again, I'm not firmly on one side or another here. I'd enjoy a new project, no doubt many people would, but I also can see the value in finishing up resources and further PRC discussions, especially if we have the option of a less intense way to keep the project lively, as suggested above.

 

[snake]

Gen7 CAP27 Proposed Calendar
Mid-June - CAP26 is completed
End of June - Concept Assessment begins
End of September - CAP27 concludes
October & November - Two months of playtesting in the final SM meta
November 18th - Pokemon Sword & Shield Release
December & January - Policy Review Committee, and enjoying Gen8
End of February - Sword & Shield meta is calm enough for us to begin CAP28

I think what this schedule misses is how End of June to End of September is about 3 months. Here's how long the past CAPs have taken (excluding CAP25, which is different because we made 3 Pokemon):

CAP26: Feburary 2, 2018 - Mid June, about 4 and a half months
CAP24: January 30, 2018 - May 17, 2018, a little less than 5 months
CAP23: July 18, 2017 - November 27, 2018, just over 4 months
CAP22: June 10, 2016 - October 26, 2018, about 4 and a half months

So, what I'm seeing here is that we have recently finished CAPs generally in around 4 and a half months. Again, you're proposing 3 months, effectively calling for the process to chop a third of the time somewhere. Could you elaborate on where that time comes from? Because that's a rather large chunk of time. Sure, if we have a deadline we could "rush" things, but I'd be interested in knowing what exactly we rush - which threads do we chop off time for? - do we set deadlines for those threads? Or, do we have to eat into playtesting time? If so, how much? If the idea is to fit in another CAP into the year when we're running up to the end of the generation, knowing exactly what the time budget is will be important.

 

[Birkal]

The variance you're noting, snake_rattler, is probably due to a difference in how we count project dates. I count from the beginning of Concept Submissions and end once Final Product is posted. If you count using my method, you'll find that CAP24, the longest project you listed, was exactly 100 days. The others are well under that, to the point where some even dip below 90 days. You might think it's unfair that I'm disregarding Topic Leadership Nominations, but we'd do the same here -- we'd start nominations a week before the end of June. But my counting isn't exactly kind to keeping the timing short either: I don't account for the time lost between the end of Movepool Submissions and the posting of Final Product. In the previous case of CAP24, we lost a week of time waiting for some loose ends to tie up, when we could have feasibly released it on Pokemon Showdown 7 days earlier.

This is all semantics though. A CAP will roughly take 90 to 100 days, and I personally lean on the side of it taking a shorter amount of time due to a heightened awareness that Gen8 is approaching. If you think that how I calculate dates is incorrect, you're allowed to think that.

There seem to be four sort of paths before us, and I'd like to shift to us discussing all four of them in this PR thread. I will give a brief encapsulation of each:

• Post-Gen8 CAP27
• Pre-Gen8 Regular CAP27
• Pre-Gen8 Ultra Beast CAP27
• Pre-Gen8 Alolan CAP27

The first two have been debated at length in the previous posts of this thread. However, I think a lot of the Discord demographic is starting to lean towards a middle ground of doing one of the latter two options. Deck Knight did a really great job out outlining a Ultra Beast CAP27 in this thread, so you should give that a read. I will leave discussing the process of an Alolan CAP to another poster who finds it worthwhile to explore. But making an Alolan variation of a pre-existing CAP has a lot of allure, especially since I could see it as us revisiting a past concept in a slimmer amount of time.

There's advantages and disadvantages to all of these routes, so if you've got a strong opinion on one of them, I'd speak up about it! We've probably got another week before we need to have our decision finalized.

 

[Deck Knight]

There seem to be four sort of paths before us, and I'd like to shift to us discussing all four of them in this PR thread. I will give a brief encapsulation of each:

• Post-Gen8 CAP27
• Pre-Gen8 Regular CAP27
• Pre-Gen8 Ultra Beast CAP27
• Pre-Gen8 Alolan CAP27

The first two have been debated at length in the previous posts of this thread. However, I think a lot of the Discord demographic is starting to lean towards a middle ground of doing one of the latter two options. Deck Knight did a really great job out outlining a Ultra Beast CAP27 in this thread, so you should give that a read. I will leave discussing the process of an Alolan CAP to another poster who finds it worthwhile to explore. But making an Alolan variation of a pre-existing CAP has a lot of allure, especially since I could see it as us revisiting a past concept in a slimmer amount of time.

There's advantages and disadvantages to all of these routes, so if you've got a strong opinion on one of them, I'd speak up about it! We've probably got another week before we need to have our decision finalized.

I think there are a few interesting facts we now know, based on E3.

Gen 8 will be wildly, vastly different from Gen 7. It will basically be a hard "Kalos Dex" Generation where the absence of former staples and the likelihood of a Pokemon being outclassed are vastly different. While our metagame team will decide exactly what Gen 8 CAP will look like, what I am getting at is that with no Megas and no Z-Moves, should CAP build for Gen 8 Galar Dex, we have an opportunity to pay homage to past gens. We could for example have Mega Crucibelle eat up the same "slot' as a Dynamax (Dynamax mons are shown to have boosted Max HP and presumably all other stats for 3 turns. Crucibelle boosts non-HP stats and is permanent).

Ultra Beasts seem like they are unlikely to be in Galar, as do Alolan formes. Alolan Formes got their second shine in LGPE, I think so that Kanto would actually have a decent roster of Dark, Steel, and Fairy types for that game. Which means an Ultra Beast CAP may be the only way to grandfather in Beast Boost to a Gen 8 meta. I know this isn't a direct justification, but I think it is something worth considering.

My hesitancy with an Alolan CAP come chiefly from the idea that even among the CAPs it feels like there is a limited pool. Are the first 3 CAPs eligible given they have no Concept? Many of our CAPs ended up being "Partner Concepts" that have received fairly negative reviews in hindsight (Voodoom, Volkraken, Plasmanta). I would also caution that Alolan CAPs use the original CAP as a base, and while Alolan Formes can change type drastically, they aren't know for large stat changes. Additionally, if we're going on the base concept it might not play out how people envision.

Take Malaconda for example. It's actual concept has nothing to do with Sun, but is "Type Equalizer."

Name: Type Equalizer

Description: A pokemon whose presence in the metagame increases the usage of one or more underused types and simultaneously decreases the usage of one or more overused types.

Justification: Take a look at the OU usage statistics for January and you'll see that 9 out of the top 10 pokemon have either steel, water, dragon or fighting as one of their types, and extending it to the top 20 shows 16/20 with those types. We should also be asking ourselves why these trends exist so strongly and what can be done about them. In creating this CAP,we'd have to discuss in depth many different aspects of what makes a type and opinions can ultimately being tested in the playtest.

Questions To Be Answered:

• Is a types usefulness relative to the metagame or is it intrinsic? (Ie. Can any type be the "best" type given the right circumstances or do type match-ups, available STAB moves etc mean some types will always be better than others?)
• What exploitable weaknesses do "good" types in OU have? Are their currently pokemon that can exploit them and if so, how do they function differently to CAP5?
• How (if at all) will the targeted types adapt to the situation created? Will people choose different movesets, abilities, etc or will they just use them more/less? How is this linked to the way CAP5 functions strategically?
• What effects will the changes on certain types' presence have on the metagame?
• Which members of the targeted types will benefit and suffer from this most and why?
• By creating CAP5, have we learnt any new ways to counter good types or use bad types?

While we could use this as a base, it would be difficult to do so using Malaconda as that base. Malaconda already has a substantially defensive stat spread and low speed, so we couldn't really change it over to a more offensive type. Obviously if we patched up its defensive weaknesses we might end up with a type that doesn't need "equalizing." Malaconda also isn't the only "Type-based" Concept, we have Mollux whose concept was to take a mon with bad typing and make that typing good, and Stratagem whose concept was to take a type and do its generalized opposite, something that isn't as clear cut with 7 generations of mons to compare with instead of 4.

You could decide to go with Malaconda's Concept as a "Base Concept" and then use Stratagem as a "Base Skeleton" since Stratagem is a much more aggressive build for, say an offensive Rock/Ice type but that is introducing more decision points, not fewer.

I genuinely think if we go with another Gen 7 project, it needs to be something that is built from the ground up that doesn't have so much baked into it already. Regular projects provide what they usually do, an Ultra Beast is a workable framework that cuts some time, but I don't think an Alolan CAP has the same advantages because it tries to pull every stage slightly away from what already exists instead of either starting from scratch or building anew around a single known element.

In summary, I think based on the E3 news that an Ultra Beast CAP now has a little more flavor / nostalgia reasoning behind it, but otherwise it's the same discussion as to whether to do a full project or use that abbreviated framework. I just don't see how we can represent an Alolan CAP well without the entire project being either a massive muddle or a hyper-restricted railroad.

 

[SHSP]

The variance you're noting, snake_rattler, is probably due to a difference in how we count project dates. I count from the beginning of Concept Submissions and end once Final Product is posted. If you count using my method, you'll find that CAP24, the longest project you listed, was exactly 100 days. The others are well under that, to the point where some even dip below 90 days. You might think it's unfair that I'm disregarding Topic Leadership Nominations, but we'd do the same here -- we'd start nominations a week before the end of June. But my counting isn't exactly kind to keeping the timing short either: I don't account for the time lost between the end of Movepool Submissions and the posting of Final Product. In the previous case of CAP24, we lost a week of time waiting for some loose ends to tie up, when we could have feasibly released it on Pokemon Showdown 7 days earlier.

This is all semantics though. A CAP will roughly take 90 to 100 days, and I personally lean on the side of it taking a shorter amount of time due to a heightened awareness that Gen8 is approaching. If you think that how I calculate dates is incorrect, you're allowed to think that.

There seem to be four sort of paths before us, and I'd like to shift to us discussing all four of them in this PR thread. I will give a brief encapsulation of each:

• Post-Gen8 CAP27
• Pre-Gen8 Regular CAP27
• Pre-Gen8 Ultra Beast CAP27
• Pre-Gen8 Alolan CAP27

The first two have been debated at length in the previous posts of this thread. However, I think a lot of the Discord demographic is starting to lean towards a middle ground of doing one of the latter two options. Deck Knight did a really great job out outlining a Ultra Beast CAP27 in this thread, so you should give that a read. I will leave discussing the process of an Alolan CAP to another poster who finds it worthwhile to explore. But making an Alolan variation of a pre-existing CAP has a lot of allure, especially since I could see it as us revisiting a past concept in a slimmer amount of time.

There's advantages and disadvantages to all of these routes, so if you've got a strong opinion on one of them, I'd speak up about it! We've probably got another week before we need to have our decision finalized.

I'm still heavily in the Post-Gen8 CAP 27 camp. If we rush into CAP 27- i.e. giving the metagame a week or two to adapt to CAP 26 and Auru's nerf- does not bode well for CAP 27's success. It takes time for the metagame to develop, and I would argue this period with CAPTT going on and a playtest being suggested is going to drive a lot of meta change in not a lot of time. CAP releases also tend to create metagame "swings" in a way- Everyone starts out running the new CAP, then that prevalence causes a shift to an incredibly anti-new CAP metagame before a sense of normality is reached. We're running a serious risk of starting out say, threats, with a list that doesn't hold up by the end of the project. Yes, I know we've just done CAP26 with Necturna's nerf in the middle. No, I don't think we should press our luck by doing the same thing, but with less knowledge, in a harder environment that will likely change faster. Nect's nerf had a significant impact on the metagame, yes, but the release of a whole new CAP both creates that swing like metagame of targeting the mon and figuring out meta trends, and has significantly more impact on the meta as a whole than the nerf of a mon down one VR tier in effectiveness.

If we give CAP 27 time to let the metagame become at least more settled than immediately after CAP 26's release, we're running what might be a bigger risk: Gen 7's metagame and resources. CAP tends not to pay too much attention to old gens in terms of resources after they're pushed out, and twice now has introduced new mons into about-to-be-old gens, with at least one having a significant metagame impact (I can't speak for Cawm's in BW). Introducing a new mon into a gen this late, if it has any sort of impact on the metagame, can really damage the resources available. Analyses, viability rankings, sample teams and the like all take time to understand the circumstances of the metagame, Pokemon's role within the metagame, and the effect they have. Not having that time leaves gen 7 with outdated resources, which is something we've been trying to avoid. Good metagame resources are important for Gen 7 as an old gen in terms of tournaments like CAPTT (and if there's resistance to move towards Gen 8, as Okamu pointed out above), as well as really cementing an image of legitimacy as a metagame- especially now that stuff like analyses are on the official dex.

I'm not entirely opposed to making a CAP, but I don't think a full blown process is set up well to succeed. An Alolan or UB CAP is preferable to me in the circumstance we do choose to create, but I would suggest we have at least a general idea of what that means in terms of changing process before we jump into it (this applies more to Alolans, considering Deck's thread exists). Apologies for the delay on the reply, as well- started it, got randomly busy and had to update it when I came back.

 

[Quanyails]

There are some other things we can do in the interim between generations:

• We could wrap up CAP pre-evos (being not metagame-oriented) in lieu of full CAPs.
• We could work more on existing CAP models.
• Flash CAPs also have been rising in popularity on Discord again, and I'd totally be fine giving them more structure on Discord so people who want to "make more CAPs" can have some agency through those. ^^
• Articles/podcasts/videos/etc. for CAP social media.
• There's been some discussion about art contests. We have one in progress for CAP's Discord icon.
• I'm not as familiar with CAP metagame happenings, but I presume activities there will still go on, too!

I believe the mentality that "CAP is most happy when it is working on a CAP" is from a time when CAP was much smaller and a time when we did not support any of the above. With stuff like this in the mix, I bet people would be happy just the same. :) We wouldn't be twiddling out fingers idly for the entire span.

Also of note is that we'd need time after Gen. VIII comes out so we can update our policies for it and for the new CAP metagame to stabilize before we go ahead with a new CAP to change it.

 

[Birkal]

To continue the conversation, on making CAP27 an Alolan CAP, pokehimon and I have been chatting about what a process would be, and the more we discuss it, the more both of us have come to realize that an Alolan CAP would basically be the same length of a process as just making CAP27 outright. I'm going to remove it from the list of recommended approaches to CAP27 as a result.

However, I am going to replace it with a final option: making CAP27 a Mega Evolution of a previously existing CAP. We theorized about this on Discord, and I think it's a short enough process that we could also squeeze it in. The steps would remain similar to a normal CAP, except we'd cut out certain stages based on what the community decided during Concept Assessment. We'd have to introduce a new stage to talk about which CAP we'd give a Mega Evolution, but other than that I can't see it taking longer than two months. It'd be a fun way to end the generation as well, especially since we might not see Mega Evolutions in Gen8 at this point in time.

---

In terms of closing out this thread, I have struggled to find a community consensus. From what I've read here and on Discord, I feel that there is a slight majority towards making some sort of creation during the interim time between now and Gen8. However, I feel that most of the CAP-related moderators feel strongly that we should take that time to focus on other CAP-related projects (Jordy, snake, SHSP, Quanyails). But that is hardly all, since Sunfished, DHR, jas, and myself have all gone on record as preferring to do something with this time slot with building an official CAP.

Therefore, we're going to do something that CAP hasn't done since 2012: put this decision to a vote. The vote will be for all current PRC members who would like to vote. The vote will take place in 48 hours from this post and last for 24 hours. The poll will be Ranked Pairs and will consist of the following options:

No Gen7 CAP27​

Gen7 Regular CAP27​

Gen7 Ultra Beast CAP27​

Gen7 Pre-Existing CAP Mega Evolution​

If you'd like to comment on any of these options or provide final thoughts, please do so in this thread over the next 48 hours. If you feel that I have wrongly included an option, or that I should add something else, please let me know. Otherwise, I will see you all at the polls!

 

[Wulfanator]

I like the idea of exploring another mega a lot, but I feel like this, like the Alolan idea, would be a less involved process.

Current Alolan mons get very little in the way of stats: minor/no changes. Movepool also gets small changes to reflect new types. The heaviest discussion this process would have is during type and ability. Concept would potentially be a heavy discussion point depending on how the project is executed, but I dont see it taking nearly as much time as a regular project or the UB outline.

Mega would involve a limited type discussion, a singular ability discussion, 0 movepool discussion, and more freedom with stats.

Being that 27 would be a time sensitive project, they would fit the window we have. My only concern is that these are projects that could easily be powered through in a handful of weeks. I'd also be worried about artificially inflating the project by dragging out steps.

If we execute either of these ideas, I think we should do more than 1 pokemon. Otherwise, we should work the UB framework since it gives more freedom. If UB is off the table, then 27 should be created for gen 8.

 

[Mova]

I'm not fond of the idea of a Mega of a previous CAP or a regional variant anymore, as I realized they would be quite limited regarding what we can do with that process and how fast we can power through either of them. Also, making a Mega that won't last very long after SWSH releases will be disappointing when we find out it's not playable in the official Gen 8 metagame. Mega and Z-Power have been confirmed not to be seen or used in Galar, after all. Freedom with stats doesn't sound too bad, but there is little else to discuss for a Mega Evolution.

Either way, I would prefer to see an Ultra Beast that utilizes the four months we have between mid-July and November 15th. If that doesn't work, I'll be more than happy to wait until Gen 8 to do much.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

The more I have thought about the more I am realizing that CAP would just be better to just wait out the rest of the generation. There is still quite a lot to do for the rest of the generation (CAPTT, a bunch of PRC discussion, other possibilities that may appear from Equilibra) and the options presented are not appealing.

- UB as I previously stated feels unnecessarily restrictive and doesn't engage the process in interesting discussion, and would most likely put too much focus on the idea of creating a UB and less on creating a CAP, refer to previous post for more in depth info.
- Regional Variant is a much more interesting process to do, as it would most likely rely on previous concepts, but I don't think enough has been established in discussion so far to fully consider it. I also did a small bit of mental math, and its very likely the process would be at least be similar in length or shorter by only a small amount even with Stats mostly omitted dependent on how the concept / pokemon selection is done. Too many questions personally which makes me lean against it.
- Megas would be a similarly questionable decision that while it could help a mon who gets selected, it is very likely that a bad mon would get selected (most likely plas or voodoom), and the fact we don't particularly know if CAP will be doing Full Dex or Galar Dex (personally would like a discussion eventually to fully set the decision in stone) could mean the process could absolutely be nulled by the the generation change.

I would much rather spend time cleaning up Gen 7 stuff and making sure that it works.