As a council, we want to remove things that are problems, not things that might become problems. Precedence for decisions like this can be seen by the BW Council's decision to ban Arena Trap but not Shadow Tag - an ability that has all of the caveats of Arena Trap and more, but is distributed across mons that are, well, not good. Addressing this situation, Jimmy Turtwig eloquently said "the concrete state of the metagame means that Snow Cloak and Sand Veil are two very different things, with sand being omnipresent and hail being rare".He isn't wrong either, Sand setters have been used 59 times this SPL in DPP. Abomasnow has been used 0 times (reference: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/spl-x-weekly-usage-stats.3646001/)What's the rationale behind this? If something is broken with Sand Veil, you should really just target that instead of also banning multiple Pokemon that are not broken. If the argument's that the mechanic itself is uncompetitive, Snow Cloak doesn't deserve a pass simply because it's less common.
'Diglett + Sand Veil', 'Dugtrio + Sand Veil', 'Gligar + Sand Veil', 'Gliscor + Sand Veil', 'Swinub + Snow Cloak', 'Piloswine + Snow Cloak', 'Mamoswine + Snow Cloak'
Sorry, I didn't realize Sandshrew was already a legitimate problem, not just a potential one like Froslass in hail. The BW Arena Trap ban was also handled poorly and not a precedent worth following. I don't really see what the extremely small sample size of SPL proves. Can you just explain why this ability needs to be quick banned from a decade-old format?As a council, we want to remove things that are problems, not things that might become problems. Precedence for decisions like this can be seen by the BW Council's decision to ban Arena Trap but not Shadow Tag - an ability that has all of the caveats of Arena Trap and more, but is distributed across mons that are, well, not good. Addressing this situation, Jimmy Turtwig eloquently said "the concrete state of the metagame means that Snow Cloak and Sand Veil are two very different things, with sand being omnipresent and hail being rare".He isn't wrong either, Sand setters have been used 59 times this SPL in DPP. Abomasnow has been used 0 times (reference: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/spl-x-weekly-usage-stats.3646001/)
If that's really what it was, that's also poorly devised on multiple levels, unless I missed when Swinub was breaking games. That's a problem that can be fixed without other unnecessary bans, though.Banlist before:
Banlist now: Sand VeilCode:'Diglett + Sand Veil', 'Dugtrio + Sand Veil', 'Gligar + Sand Veil', 'Gliscor + Sand Veil', 'Swinub + Snow Cloak', 'Piloswine + Snow Cloak', 'Mamoswine + Snow Cloak'
Why would this be a bad change when the previous clause explicitly bans ability + Pokemon combinations [insert Blaze Blaziken meme here]. More consistent ban policy across generations is a good thing.
No one is saying that Sandshrew is a problem, we (as a governing council) favor a single ban over multiple complex bans. KISS. Keep it simple stupid. Following this identical principle, we argue that Snow Cloak is not worthy of a ban. If it becomes a problem, we will look at it. There is nothing wrong with moving adaptively through tiering.Sorry, I didn't realize Sandshrew was already a legitimate problem, not just a potential one like Froslass in hail. The BW Arena Trap ban was also handled poorly and not a precedent worth following. I don't really see what the extremely small sample size of SPL proves. Can you just explain why this ability needs to be quick banned from a decade-old format?
Great, give me an outline that makes everyone happy and i'll put it into action immediatelyIf that's really what it was, that's also poorly devised on multiple levels, unless I missed when Swinub was breaking games. That's a problem that can be fixed without other unnecessary bans, though.
You will never please everyone, which is why it's important to be able to actually justify any ban you want to implement. They should be able to stand the test of time. Any ban you make will be challenged some day, probably multiple times, and it's important to have reasonable cause behind it if you want it to actually be final. With that in mind, I would be happy to offer 4 solutions that at least make more sense to me and also don't screw up lower tiers. You probably won't like them all, but they are all worth genuinely considering.Great, give me an outline that makes everyone happy and i'll put it into action immediately
Sure, this solves the problem of teams aiming to abuse these Pokemon under their own Sand, but calling it straightforward while protesting the current ban seems quite hypocritical. This is quite literally a more complicated version of just banning Sand Veil in order to minimize collateral while forgoing simplicity. I do not believe this aligns with the current priorities, but a member of the DPP Council can speak more on that.1) Ban Sand Stream + Sand Veil. This is straightforward and fixes the issue completely. Missing due to SV becomes 100% on the fault of the attacker. When you decide in the teambuilder that you want to use sand, you accept the inherent risk, akin to picking Fire Blast over Flamethrower.
No clue why you would propose this when it's entirely unrealistic and would deface the metagame, which is something we are actively trying to avoid.2) Ban Sand Stream. The combo of this and SV is apparently problematic. Looking at those stats you linked, Cacturne (a spiker with a supposedly busted ability) was used twice while sand was present on over half of teams. I think that's indicative of where the actual problem lies.
Read what I said for #2 -- it applies here, but also if you believe that we've been "bending over backwards" to keep Tyranitar "relevant" then you probably should not be commenting on these generations. Tyranitar is one of the naturally best Pokemon in generations 3-5 and it's quite good in the other generations it is available in, too.3) Ban Ttar. I said you probably wouldn't like them all, but we've been bending over backwards to keep it relevant for three generations now. Hippo + SV could very well still be an issue, but this tackles the most immediately problematic part of the equation without indirectly damaging anything else.
This is pretty comparable to the recent Ban Dugtrio vs. Ban Arena Trap debate. Banning Arena Trap ultimately was better when it appeared that Diglett was similarly problematic to Dugtrio, doing the same thing, but with a bit less overall viability/niche. If Cacturne can take over games, then who knows what else can. Do we really want to spend the next year or two progressively banning Sand Veil Pokemon instead of actually making a simple, straightforward ban like we are now, letting the metagame be fully competitive in the modern day without any potential exceptions? This is just a suboptimal route when compared to the current decision.4) Ban the SV mons that are actually busted in sand. It's making a lengthy ban list to ignore the larger issue, but it has less damaging effects than a blanket ban.
and I still believe this holds true. Comparing things with horrid BST to Pokemon that can actually do something to make a point is just dumb. If you want to make an argument against the ban you should bring up legitimate points and not talk about how "well Sunkern isn't broken with Swagger, so why ban Swagger?"b.) However, just because something isn't highly distributed, like Shadow Tag, doesn't mean it isn't unhealthy. Some tried to state that Shadow Tag wouldn't be broken on a 10/10/10/10/10/10 BST mon, but this is the wrong way to look at it.
I'm not sure if the last part is just a personal wish or something you think should seriously be taken into account, but I hope it's not the latter. Despite the fact I love lower tiers, old gen lower tiers should be absolutely irrelevant when making bans in old gen OUs. The effects that bans have on lower tiers shouldn't even be taken into account in modern gens, much less old gens where metagames that aren't even actively played or have any tournament representation, or honestly hold much relevance in the first place. There's nothing wrong with loving old gen lower tiers at all, but to act like they should be held in similar regard to a tier that will be played actively on Smogon until the day the site gets shut down, is absurd.I would be happy to offer 4 solutions that at least make more sense to me and also don't screw up lower tiers.
Straightforward in that no Pokémon is banned. We're implementing a "complex ban" that is less complex than the current implementation and also than what some other gens have. It's not a hard concept for a beginner to grasp. Of course just banning Sand Veil is a more simple solution, but it has much more complicated effects in other tiers. Sure, you don't have to worry about that when dealing with a problem, but at least try to be mindful when possible?These supposed alternatives are all worse than the current ban, in my opinion.
Sure, this solves the problem of teams aiming to abuse these Pokemon under their own Sand, but calling it straightforward while protesting the current ban seems quite hypocritical. This is quite literally a more complicated version of just banning Sand Veil in order to minimize collateral while forgoing simplicity. I do not believe this aligns with the current priorities, but a member of the DPP Council can speak more on that.
At this point, DPP OU is hot off the presses. We just unbanned Latias, don't pretend you aren't open to significant change.No clue why you would propose this when it's entirely unrealistic and would deface the metagame, which is something we are actively trying to avoid.
You keep it relevant by keeping it OU. Instead, let's argue for a decade+ on shit like Chomp and Scor and Exa and Cact and who even knows what else because in an announcement OP and 2 direct responses to questions of why, no one has even expressed why this ban is needed in the first place.Read what I said for #2 -- it applies here, but also if you believe that we've been "bending over backwards" to keep Tyranitar "relevant" then you probably should not be commenting on these generations. Tyranitar is one of the naturally best Pokemon in generations 3-5 and it's quite good in the other generations it is available in, too.
Yes, this is extremely comparable to that ban I also proclaimed was terrible, I agree. That knee-jerk reaction of Diglet being broken in OU is genuinely more ridiculous than this. Do not pretend Cacturne is sweeping this small sample sized tour. It won one of two games, hardly some underdog major threat.This is pretty comparable to the recent Ban Dugtrio vs. Ban Arena Trap debate. Banning Arena Trap ultimately was better when it appeared that Diglett was similarly problematic to Dugtrio, doing the same thing, but with a bit less overall viability/niche. If Cacturne can take over games, then who knows what else can. Do we really want to spend the next year or two progressively banning Sand Veil Pokemon instead of actually making a simple, straightforward ban like we are now, letting the metagame be fully competitive in the modern day without any potential exceptions? This is just a suboptimal route when compared to the current decision.
To be clear, these are not all suggestions I support, just ones that I consider better than this. I would also say doing nothing is both crap (cuz current solution is awful) and better than this. I would most support option 1 on my list. Not super afraid of a ttar test but I would much rather just not. I am prepared to argue if you think it's less broken than Cact, though.I'm not sure if the last is just a personal wish or something you think should seriously be taken into account, but I hope it's not the latter. Despite the fact I love lower tiers, old gen lower tiers should be absolutely irrelevant when making bans in old gen OUs. The effects that bans have on lower tiers shouldn't even be taken into account in modern gens, much less old gens where metagames that aren't even actively played or have any tournament representation, or honestly hold much relevance in the first place. There's nothing wrong with loving old gen lower tiers at all, but to act like they should be held in similar regard to a tier that will be played actively on Smogon until the day the site gets shut down, is absurd.
... Is it really, though?Diglett was similarly problematic to Dugtrio
okay but Swagger is truly the dumbest ban Smogon ever concocted, it was literally banned for being annoyingand I still believe this holds true. Comparing things with horrid BST to Pokemon that can actually do something to make a point is just dumb. If you want to make an argument against the ban you should bring up legitimate points and not talk about how "well Sunkern isn't broken with Swagger, so why ban Swagger?"
We ban Pokemon. Except when it's Gliscor. Gotta keep that Gliscor. But screw Froslass. And Cacnea.
Yes, it is a more complex solution to a complex problem. It's a surgical way to remove broken elements from an old format without actually banning the Pokemon residing there. If you want to use Ttar or Hippo under this, and you're genuinely worried about the threat of stray Sand Veil users, then you should account for that in teambuilding, sure. It's a boost in viability to SV mons (who aren't currently at absurd levels) and a slight detriment to a Pokemon on over half of all teams. How is that controversial? There are huge benefits to running a sand inducer, so yeah, it is quite like choosing Fire Blast over Flamethrower. It's actually a simpler decision, because sand itself is so strong that it's totally still worth the risk of running into random SVers so you can get the bountiful benefits of using Ttar.1) more complex than banning Sand Veil, which is what we should be striving to avoid in the first place and also not a solution, as people will just run Sand Veil and hope to face Sand, and considering Tyranitar has over 50% usage in SPL and has for the past 3 years, it's a safe bet it'll work out the majority of the time. I can absolutely assure you this will happen. Comparing it to running stuff like inaccurate moves is just stupid; using a more inaccurate move to reap other benefits is not something the opponent can do to try to win before the game even starts. Running Tyranitar/Hippowdon and worrying about getting lucked by Sand Veil, which is one of the few things in Pokemon where there's quite literally nothing more you can do than hope you don't get unlucky, bar run Aerial Ace (which no DPP OU Pokemon has ever run). It's more comparable to saying "well if you're not running a Pokemon with Own Tempo or Magic Bounce you're accepting the fact you could lose to Swagger."
I mean, yeah, sand is pretty nuts. Outside of a small pool of Pokemon (who have high representation in this sand-centric meta), it essentially counteracts Lefties and equates running any other item with slowly getting worn down. The casual benefit of Lefties is pretty huge; GSC is a testament to how much the item can accomplish. An ability that causes a permanent reverse of Lefties on the majority of all Pokemon is wild. Stall wants sand, cuz it wants that effortless chip damage. Offense wants sand cuz it makes hitting those KOs just so much easier. There's a damn good reason permanent sand dominates the three OUs in which it exists.2) the same thing as banning Sand Veil, except far worse for DPP OU, as this bans both Tyranitar and Hippowdon to... save Sandslash in DPP NU?
Ttar is the most centralizing force in ADV, DPP, and BW. Its stats are fantastic, especially in DPP+. Its movepool is just phenomenal. Its typing is odd, but extremely nice, accentuating several of its best traits. I wouldn't act like sand isn't obviously uncompetitive, and especially not not broken. It's the main reason SV is seen as luck-based, so yeah, it does have that going for it. How are you still insisting the Pokemon on over half of teams is not the issue; it's that thing that was inconsistently used twice recently?3) absolutely absurd and not even a remotely good solution. I know you're expecting backlash because "hurr banning Tyranitar" but it's actually so absurd to make a suggestion like this beyond just the fact you're suggesting we test Tyranitar, because not only is Tyranitar not broken, uncompetitive, luck based, or the issue at all in the first place, but also there's another Sand setter in Hippowdon who is extremely viable.
I'm sure Diglett saw a spike in usage after Dugtrio's ban. Naturally peeps will be curious if it can accomplish what its evo can. And, for the most part, it doesn't hold a candle to Trio. Oh, but it does pose a minuscule threat to Ttar. Can't have that, lol. Ttar's a pillar of the format and has been for years~4) while you can think that banning Arena Trap was bad, simply because you disagree with it doesn't make it wrong. There was also a lot of debate in the thread saying the real problem was Arena Trap, and not Dugtrio. If you care to read it, you can see here. Also, I don't care to get into details but please don't act like you know Diglett wasn't going to get used in OU, because it was and saw usage when the Dugtrio test was posted the first time. I know because I made sure to take everything into account, as the current TL, and watched ladder and tour games during the timeframe. I'm not acting like Diglett was going to be the same thing or anywhere close, but please don't act like you'd rather see us ban Diglett from SM OU than ban Arena Trap. This case is also far more logical to ban the Ability over the Pokemon than Arena Trap, as not only are there multiple abusers, but the primary abuser in question has more tools than just being entirely luck based.
I do want to preserve lower tier Pokemon from a totally unnecessary ban, yeah. That's not my only motivation, but it's certainly up there and it's not incredibly stupid by any stretch. When there are multiple solutions and damaging other formats can be avoided by most of them, you need some damn strong reasoning to say fuck it and go ahead with damaging shit. Problem is, I've yet to see this reasoning. It wasn't in the OP, where it should be. It wasn't in response to my 3 prior requests for it. At this point, I'm growing skeptical of it existing. From what I can tell, right now there's just a baseless reassurance that 5 dudes can generally agree that it's more fun this way. Cool.I really don't see how any of these solutions are better than just banning Sand Veil, unless you really want to preserve some lower tier Pokemon, which like I said before, is incredibly stupid.
Say you're correct here in entirety (you're not). Even so, you totally missed my point which is that the issue here isn't people being able to run Sand Veil Pokemon alongside Tyranitar / Hippowdon, the issue is Sand Veil itself posing uncompetitive and extremely luck based. Let's, again, take a look at the Tiering Policy Framework:Yes, it is a more complex solution to a complex problem. It's a surgical way to remove broken elements from an old format without actually banning the Pokemon residing there. If you want to use Ttar or Hippo under this, and you're genuinely worried about the threat of stray Sand Veil users, then you should account for that in teambuilding, sure. It's a boost in viability to SV mons (who aren't currently at absurd levels) and a slight detriment to a Pokemon on over half of all teams. How is that controversial? There are huge benefits to running a sand inducer, so yeah, it is quite like choosing Fire Blast over Flamethrower. It's actually a simpler decision, because sand itself is so strong that it's totally still worth the risk of running into random SVers so you can get the bountiful benefits of using Ttar.
I think it's quite obvious you can see Sand Veil falling under this, no? Whether or not you think it's totally true is one thing, but surely you can understand the logic that it absolutely falls under this. So, if the issue here is Sand Veil, while banning the combination would mitigate the issue, it does not change the fact it could be / is ~uncompetitive~.II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.
- This can be probability management issues; think OHKOs, evasion, or Moody, all of which turned the battle from emphasizing battling skill to emphasizing the result of the RNG more often than not.
As someone who actively plays DPP OU, I can assure you Tyranitar would still see a LOT of usage in DPP even without the fact sand passively chips Pokemon. This is also a discussion about banning Sand Veil, not Sand itself. If you'd like to argue that Sand is broken... be my guest, I guess. Regardless of the fact that banning Sand would make Sand Veil not broken, those are two totally separate points and I don't see how we should ban something that's not broken to neutralize something that is.I mean, yeah, sand is pretty nuts. Outside of a small pool of Pokemon (who have high representation in this sand-centric meta), it essentially counteracts Lefties and equates running any other item with slowly getting worn down. The casual benefit of Lefties is pretty huge; GSC is a testament to how much the item can accomplish. An ability that causes a permanent reverse of Lefties on the majority of all Pokemon is wild. Stall wants sand, cuz it wants that effortless chip damage. Offense wants sand cuz it makes hitting those KOs just so much easier. There's a damn good reason permanent sand dominates the three OUs in which it exists.
Many, many Pokemon see astronomical usage and are not remotely broken. Landorus-T in OU, Primal Groudon in Ubers, Vullaby/Mienfoo in LC, Landorus-T/Incineroar in DOU, Clefable in ORAS OU, and many more examples. Usage does not mean a Pokemon is broken and the fact you're arguing it does is quite telling of why you're still arguing in the first place.Ttar is the most centralizing force in ADV, DPP, and BW. Its stats are fantastic, especially in DPP+. Its movepool is just phenomenal. Its typing is odd, but extremely nice, accentuating several of its best traits. I wouldn't act like sand isn't obviously uncompetitive, and especially not not broken. It's the main reason SV is seen as luck-based, so yeah, it does have that going for it. How are you still insisting the Pokemon on over half of teams is not the issue; it's that thing that was inconsistently used twice recently?
I'd like to reiterate something: I was the TL at the time. I was very actively involved in the metagame; playing a lot, building a ton, and watching a lot of games. You were not. The reason people used Diglett wasn't even for Tyranitar at all. But clearly we just want to use Tyranitar because Tyranitar is the centerpiece of every OU.And, for the most part, it doesn't hold a candle to Trio. Oh, but it does pose a minuscule threat to Ttar. Can't have that, lol. Ttar's a pillar of the format and has been for years~
So, you're asking for an explanation on something, but totally ignoring why we should care in the slightest about lower tiers? I don't know why you elected to quote a previous post of mine where I say lower tiers should have no weight on the decision, but then entirely ignore the content of said post, but allow me to say it again: old gen lower tiers are irrelevant. You can enjoy them, you can play them, you can care about them; nothing wrong with any of that. But they aren't even real tiers anymore, and should hold absolutely zero weight in tiering decisions in OU. It is incredibly stupid to think that DPP UU / NU hold any semblance of weight compared to DPP OU. If you don't want these bans to change old gen lower tiers, then argue for it to be non transitive. Don't get OU to jump through hoops to assure your lower tiers don't get changed.I do want to preserve lower tier Pokemon from a totally unnecessary ban, yeah. That's not my only motivation, but it's certainly up there and it's not incredibly stupid by any stretch. When there are multiple solutions and damaging other formats can be avoided by most of them, you need some damn strong reasoning to say fuck it and go ahead with damaging shit. Problem is, I've yet to see this reasoning. It wasn't in the OP, where it should be. It wasn't in response to my 3 prior requests for it. At this point, I'm growing skeptical of it existing. From what I can tell, right now there's just a baseless reassurance that 5 dudes can generally agree that it's more fun this way. Cool.
I only "understand the logic" in the sense that Sand Veil is analogous to evasion moves, but I equate it more to Brightpowder which was also banned for a time but no longer is because the community realized it's bad and was a dumb ban."II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.
- This can be probability management issues; think OHKOs, evasion, or Moody, all of which turned the battle from emphasizing battling skill to emphasizing the result of the RNG more often than not."
I think it's quite obvious you can see Sand Veil falling under this, no? Whether or not you think it's totally true is one thing, but surely you can understand the logic that it absolutely falls under this. So, if the issue here is Sand Veil, while banning the combination would mitigate the issue, it does not change the fact it could be / is ~uncompetitive~.
The fact that Tyranitar is so good you can cut its Special Defense by one-third plus null its ability that fundamentally alters how the game is played and it'd still be right at the top of the usage list doesn't suggest to you that it's broken as shit?As someone who actively plays DPP OU, I can assure you Tyranitar would still see a LOT of usage in DPP even without the fact sand passively chips Pokemon. This is also a discussion about banning Sand Veil, not Sand itself. If you'd like to argue that Sand is broken... be my guest, I guess. Regardless of the fact that banning Sand would make Sand Veil not broken, those are two totally separate points and I don't see how we should ban something that's not broken to neutralize something that is.
Tyranitar is absolutely not broken. It's just an incredible Pokemon that provides a lot of tools that no other Pokemon can replicate. I'm not going to get into why Tyranitar is or isn't broken because, again, this thread is about Sand Veil. If you'd like to argue Tyranitar is broken, feel free.
Appreciate the suggestion thoughThe DPP Council is banning Sand Veil in its entirety. Discussion may commence here but keep in mind the decision is final. Snow Cloak will remain legal.