Metagame DPP Doubles OU

[zee]

approved by TLs. big thanks to bunnyy for bringing up an oldgen circuit, which inspired me to revive this. old thread here

DPP Doubles OU

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PLAY RESTRICTIONS

• Species Clause: Players cannot use two Pokemon with the same Pokedex number on the same team.
• Sleep Clause Mod: Limit one foe put to sleep.
• OHKO Clause: Players cannot use the moves Fissure, Guillotine, Horn Drill, or Sheer Cold.
• Evasion Clause: Players cannot use the moves Double Team or Minimize.

Pokemon Restrictions
Players cannot use the following Pokemon:

• Arceus
• Darkrai
• Deoxys (all forms)
• Dialga
• Garchomp
• Giratina
• Groudon
• Ho-Oh
• Kyogre
• Latios
• Lugia
• Mewtwo
• Palkia
• Rayquaza
• Shaymin-Sky

Move Restrictions
Players cannot use the following moves:

• Dark Void

Item Restrictions
Players cannot use the following items:

• Soul Dew
• Brightpowder
• Lax Incense

Ability Restrictions
Players cannot use the following abilities:

• Sand Veil
• Snow Cloak

DPP Council

• zee
• qsns
• ryo yamada2001
• bage1
• Bless
• Farfromani
• Mizuhime
• DaAwesomeDude1

DPP Doubles is noticeably an absent generation in the Doubles community. While Doubles became an official Smogon tier in the Generation 5 era, Generation 3 has seen a revival and the formation of a dedicated fanbase in recent years, and it's time to fill in the gap and establish DPP as another community metagame.

​

 

[zee]

Sample Teams

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Double Dragon by zee

ZapPert lead by zee/Mizuhime
Bronzong variant by bage1

SD Scizor by DaAwesomeDude1

Double Bug + CM Latias by Bless

Rain by Actuarily

Clamperl Fullroom by Farfromani

​

archived samples

Rain by zee

ScarfSpam by zee

Screens Raikou by bage1

MewGross by bage1

FullRoom by NinjaSnapple

ScarfSpam by zee

SD Mew by zee



Camerupt Fullroom by GasaiYunoSan edited by Farfromani

SD Gliscor Screens by DaAwesomedude1

 

[zee]

>>VR COUNCIL<<
bage1
Bless
DaAwesomeDude1
Farfromani
Mizuhime
qsns
zee

>>VR HISTORY<<
Initial VR Mar 27 2023
Update April 8 2023
Update May 10 2023
Update June 25 2023
Update July 26 2023
Update October 16 2023
Update December 11 2023
Update January 17 2023


TIER 1
Latias
Metagross
Swampert
Tyranitar

TIER 2
Bronzong
Gyarados
Heatran
Zapdos

TIER 3
Clefable
Cresselia
Heracross
Hitmontop
Mew
Raikou
Registeel
Scizor

TIER 4
Empoleon
Gengar
Jirachi
Kangaskhan
Kingdra
Ludicolo
Rhyperior
Salamence
Suicune

TIER 5
Abomasnow
Blissey
Breloom
Camerupt
Clamperl
Dusclops
Hariyama
Infernape
Lucario
Machamp
Magmortar
Mamoswine
Mismagius
Rotom-Heat
Rotom-Mow
Slowking
Snorlax
Staraptor
Togekiss
Toxicroak

 

[qsns]

Had a ton of fun playing DPP today! Sharing 2 teams that worked the best for me.


Team concept is to Pursuit Rotom-A and Latios, the two most common levitators in order to let CB Garchomp rip open the opponent with Sand Veil active. I haven't done this once because clicking CB Outrage is much easier, but the team functions quite well. Bulky Rotom-A is an excellent glue, covering Metagross and Empoleon.


Good Pokemon with a Trick Room mode. I have found HP Ground on Cresselia a necessity to make sure Empoleon doesn't Sub on you and stall out all 5 turns.

Haven't played enough to give a detailed VR, but TTar, Empoleon, and Latios all feel in the Tier 1 range to me. None of these feel incredibly oppressive, all just versatile mons with plenty of offensive presence and chances to come in. Incredibly surprised and happy to see Empoleon doing very well today. Sponging Draco Meteor, sand immunity, and Boom resistance with its strong Hydro make it incredibly splashable and tough to take down (especially Sub!!).

edit: chomp is broken as fuck

 

[ryo yamada2001]

Very happy to already have people interested in DPP! There's a lot of unexplored territory that we'll be looking to chart the next few weeks; come join us in the #oldgens channel in the Doubles Discord if you're interested. We'll try to host a room tournament this weekend, so we get a better idea of what is viable and on a potential early ban slate. More information tbd.

Note that PS!' DPP DOU has Sand Veil and Explosion in its ban list. To play the format use:
/challenge gen4doublesou @@@ +move:explosion, +ability:sand veil

I will echo qsns' first impressions so far; especially Empoleon has been the game defining threat so far. It's a bulky Water-type in a tier with few notable Electric-type (Zapdos, Rotom-formes) and Fighting-type (Hitmontop) threats. It boasts a load of useful resistances -- it deters Rain, Dragon spam (Latios), Gengar -- and effortlessly tanks neutral hits while trading favorably with Hydro Pump. Ice Beam is essential coverage, and its third move varies between Substitute (instant momentum winner), Grass Knot (Swampert coverage), and Stealth Rock (leads).

Tyranitar is the other premier threat, so far being the only notable Weather setter in a permanent Weather gen. Its difficult to kill, sets up essential Stealth Rocks, and threatens preliminary top tiers with a wide array of powerful coverage (Stone Edge, Crunch, Low Kick). Other emergent strong choices seem to be Metagross (bulky, good resistances, super boom), Latios (comes in and clicks Draco), while Hitmontop and Azelf have come to define the lead metagame so far. There's still so much room to experiment though!


built this team w/ qsns earlier in the day. not sure if its very good but it won me some games
lead hitmontop + azelf makes it fairly easy to get rocks up -- big necessity in this meta so far. scarf jirachi outspeeds the entire tier, pivoting back into hitmontop's fake out pressure (makes it easier for tyranitar to dd) or into latios' fast nukes. jirachi can trick scarf onto bulky threats like cresselia to cripple its supportive capabilities, or to take away protect so azelf can boom on ttar and empoleon's checks. has some unfavorable matchups but i might just be skill issued

 

[ryo yamada2001]

DPP DOU has been updated on PS! so we no longer have to challenge with the command anymore! zee has updated the OP to reflect these changes and the tier in its current state.

Another reminder we're planning on doing a DPP DOU live tournament this upcoming Sunday evening! The exact time is to be determined tomorrow — if you're interested in signing up make sure to let me know either on Smogon or in the #oldgens channel in DOUcord. It will be a double elimination tournament hosted in the DPL PS! room.

Current list of signups:

Hide

1. bunnyy
2. zee
3. qsns
4. Memoric
5. bage1
6. smudgerox
7. DaAwesomeDude1
8. AIRedzone
9. Concept Everything
10. Bless

Unsure: umbry, tyo, Xrn, NinjaSnapple

An example team for DPP would be:

A rather generic goodstuffs team that makes use of the tier's biggest offensive and defensive threats in a balanced composition. But this tier is currently the wild west, so feel free to build your own teams and invent something possibly meta warping!

The Kings:
Empoleon
- bulky steel that trades favorably against almost the entire tier because of torrent + strong coverage
- item of choice is often a resist berry; shuca & chople cover garchomp & hitmontop/tyranitar respectively. prefers leftovers on substitute sets
- hydro pump and ice beam mandatory; third slot is between substitute (most common), grass knot (swampert matchup), hidden power electric (for the mirror), stealth rock (as a lead) and agility (niche).

Garchomp
- very hard to trade with. choice band sets threatens everything with a high base speed & powerful STABs, while sand veil and great natural bulk makes it difficult to fire back
- earthquake + outrage + dragon claw + sleep talk; might run protect if you opt into a life orb and/or swords dance set

Tyranitar
- super versatile, but shines mostly as the best permanent weather setter
- chople berry sets can make use of counter, which OHKOs hitmontop and opposing tyranitar
- superpower threatens empoleon specifically; low kick is more favorable in the mirror
- pursuit locks in -2 latios after draco
- other options include crunch, stone edge, and stealth rock (common as lead). dragon dance is niche.

Other good Pokémon:
Azelf
- lead azelf @ focus sash; sets up stealth rocks quickly, can taunt opposing lead azelf (other players prefer imprison in this slot), explode when you're done. psychic and fire blast in its last slot covers hitmontop and scizor respectively
- choice band azelf; outspeeds all other non-scarfed meta pokemon and wrecks them with an excellent assortment of coverage (ice punch, fire punch, explosion, fast u-turn pivots)

Bronzong
- very bulky steel that fully resists garchomp. occa berry covers it only weakness, especially without many prominent fire-types around. most reliable trick room setter & good stealth rocks setter

Hitmontop
- bulky intimidate + fake out lead Sitrus. other moveslots are flexible; sucker punch (vs latios), rapid spin (stealth rock is in every game), protect (esp. for explosion hits), helping hand & rain dance to enable &

Jirachi
- scarf jirachi; annoying pivot w/ fast u-turns and excellent coverage of elemental punches. fast iron heads remain a win condition
- screens @ light clay; sets up for bulky heavyweights like garchomp & empoleon. icy wind is good speed control and it can follow up with iron heads

Latios
- choice specs annihilates the entire tier with huge draco meteors
- can opt into choice scarf if it needs to win the mirror and/or (rare) scarf garchomp appearances

Machamp
- abuses the metagame's abundance of steel-types and non-fighting resists w/ dynamicpunch. chooses between scarf on normal teams & band on trick room teams

Metagross
- choice band metagross; meteor mash/hammer arm/zen headbutt/bullet punch/ice punch etc. strongest Exploder in the tier
- substitute metagross; prefers leftovers. still has really good attack stats

Mew
- its mew so this can run anything. likely some variant of stealth rock + fake out + speed control + coverage

Rotom-Heat
- bulky spdef @ sitrus berry; shadow ball + thunderbolt + protect + usually will-o-wisp. note its lower accuracy this gen
- choice specs; shadow ball + tbolt + overheat + trick/hidden power coverage; very little hits this effectively so it trades like a monster

Scizor
- bulky SD; bug bite + bullet punch + SD + roost/protect

Suicune
- bulky water Sitrus w/ excellent speed control (tailwind & icy wind). relies on hydro pump this gen. ice beam and hidden power for coverage
- calm mind sets Leftovers default to hydro pump & ice beam with protect as last slot

Zapdos
- best tailwind setter with strong STAB tbolt & HP ice coverage. protect as last slot. can opt into thunder wave over tailwind as "speed control"
- bulky spdef zapdos can choose roost over protect to extend its longevity. demon

Niche sets:
Scarf Blizzard spam
Scarf Spore spam
Toxic Orb + Substitute
Substitute + Seed Bomb Sand Veil abuser
Helping Hand/Sunny Day + Icy Wind/Trick Room + Moonlight
Stealth Rock + Fire-move coverage
Bulky Sand setter with Yawn support
Fake Out + Fire & Fighting-type support
+ Weather sweepers who require manual Rain Dance support
Swords Dance Trick Room threat
Toxic Spikes setter
Dragon Dance sweeper
Bulky hazards spammer
Stealth Rocks setter (Damp (real?))
Follow Me support

 

[ryo yamada2001]

DPP DOU has a ladder now!

last reminder that tomorrow we will do a DPP DOU double elimination room tournament in the DPL room on PS! Make sure to sign up if you're interested. we're currently at 10 confirmed signups.

 

[Concept Everything]

Never ask about the garchomp incident of 2023

 

[ryo yamada2001]

Congratulations to Lolk for winning our inaugural DPP DOU livetour!

A huge thank you to everyone who showed up for this tournament! I hope everyone enjoyed participating and there's interest in more tournaments, either livetours or forum tournaments, in the future!

REPLAYS:

Hide

R1
elise vs LuBiStar20
Lolk vs smudgerox
AIRedzone vs NinjaSnapple
Hys vs qsns
tyo vs bage1
NotlPrimRose vs Sunrose
zee vs Concept Everything

R2
LuBiStar20 vs smudgerox
AIRedzone vs qsns
tyo vs Sunrose
elise vs Lolk
NinjaSnapple vs Hys
bage1 vs NotlPrimrose
zee vs daawesomedude1

R3
elise vs LuBiStar20
Hys vs qsns
bage1 vs Sunrose
zee vs Concept Everything

R4
LuBiStar20 vs qsns
Sunrose vs zee
Lolk vs NinjaSnapple
NotlPrimrose vs daawesomedude1

R5
NinjaSnapple vs qsns
daawesomedude1 vs Sunrose

R6
NinjaSnapple vs Sunrose
Lolk vs NotlPrimrose

finals
Lolk vs NinjaSnapple

Interestingly enough, Lolk's winning team featured a number of Pokemon not previously mentioned in the viability lists!

Substitute Magnezone means to exploit the abundance of relevant Steel-types, preying on especially Empoleon and Scizor while also having a favorable matchup against Tyranitar. Infernape's fast Fake Outs beat the numerous Hitmontops, while Scarfed Shaymin wreaks havoc with Seed Flare. Follow Me Togekiss + Calm Mind Suicune would prove another strong win condition, as did Life Orb Mamoswine with its effective coverage.

Other observations: Substitute Steel-types such as Metagross and the aforementioned Magnezone seems very strong. Sand Veil Garchomp is stupid and not fun to play against. The meta is super fresh and new and Lolk's victory proves there's a lot of opportunities to explore off-meta choices.

A reminder I'll try to be around in the DPL room throughout the week to launch DPP roomtours whenever we can. Hopefully we can do a similar live tournament next weekend too, let me know either here, through DMs, or in #oldgens if you're interested. See you until next time!

 

[zee]

After some community games and last night's DPP DOU tournament one thing is absolutely clear about this metagame: Garchomp is broken. Being one of the best Pokemon in the tier on its own merits is amazing, and on top of that Sand Veil means every move has 20% less accuracy against it. With the immense viability of both Tyranitar and Garchomp it is quite easy to have games that come down to hitting Garchomp, and using Substitute can even further aid in Garchomp's ability to fish for misses.

Because of this, we are set on taking tiering action that will in some way remove Garchomp from the tier. The options are as follows:

1) Ban Sand Veil & Snow Cloak - by removing Evasion abilities from the metagame, Garchomp is functionally banned, and this prevents shenanigans from other Pokemon like Gliscor, Cacturne, Froslass, and Glaceon. Banning both abilities can be regarded as a consistency option.

2) Ban Sand Veil - a slightly less nuclear option, a Sand Veil ban preserves Froslass and Glaceon's Snow Cloak potential. The arguments for this being that Ice types generally are less viable than Tyranitar + your favorite Sand Veil abuser, and Snow Cloak strategies are relatively untested at this time.

3) Ban Garchomp - Properly marks it DUber and leaves the other evasion ability Pokemon around, which could potentially be acted upon further in the future.

Please let us know your thoughts in this thread or in #oldgens in the doubles discord.

Speaking as just myself here, personally I prefer option 1 here the most, permaweather + evasion abilities just allow for too many dice rolls and opportunities to fish, and I feel like in Garchomp's absence we'll be going to Gliscor then to Glaceon etc until we end up at this option anyways.

 

[Concept Everything]

Although I feel in the case of Garchomp, allowing sand veil while sand is so easily spammable makes an already good Pokémon into an even greater Pokémon that extrapolates it’s viability in the tier. I’m sure everyone that has played the tier in any competitive capacity can agree that it needs to be gone immediately.

For the weather evasion abilities I believe we should do some more conclusive testing to at least figure out the potential meta and see what effectively works or is too strong in the tier. Although I’m not opposed to banning both Sand Veil and Snow Cloak immediately, I would rather see some more testing and experimenting to see whether or not the abilities are actually ban worthy.

If anything I would like to test an OU approach to the abilities and allowing Snow Cloak on Pokémon with strictly the Snow Cloak ability and if that doesn’t work, outright banning the abilities.

 

[MZB]

To start off: I have been enjoying playing and exploring DPP DOU! I am happy to see people put effort into the tier, and I hope the DPP DOU community continues to grow.

Why we need to do something about Garchomp: Choice Band Garchomp absolutely destroys nearly the entire tier as there are very few pokemon that want to switch in on its powerful attacks such as EQ and Outrage. It also has boasts a 102 base speed, which helps it outspeed a large portion of the tier. Combine that with good defenses in solid natural bulk + sand evasion, this pokemon is an absolute monster. While there is counterplay to Garchomp, in my opinion the meta would be very unhealthy warped around it.

*one thing to obviously keep in mind is that weather is permanent in this generation*

I am not aware of what DPP Singles did in terms of bans, but I think option 2 is best to go with at the moment, however I wouldn't be upset if option 1 was selected. While I understand why snow cloak could be ban, at the moment I don't think it is an issue, and I rather see snow cloak played out rather than automatically ban (especially in a new and establishing tier). Option 1 is still a solid option though, if sand veil and snow cloak are completely ban, we wouldn't have to potentially worry about similar issues in the future. Option 3 is my least favorite, as I believe it will ignore the bigger issue compared to what Options 1 and 2 do.

 

[Concept Everything]

Personal Meta Analysis Pre-Garchomp Ban

Best Leads​

The best leads tend to be a mix of the following Pokémon. The following leads ARE listed in order.


In a majority of your games one of the following Pokémon will be lead


Because of the dominance and meta warping ability of Tyranitar is viewed as a premier lead in the tier, not only setting up permanent sand to later be abused by but also giving it the defensive capability to tank special hits very well as well as consistent chip while also removing the opponent’s focus sashes. What makes Tyranitar so optimal is the ability to set up hazards, paralyzing opponents, knocking out weaker leads and the removal of lead and future sashes.


Primarily partnered with , Hitmontop acts as a crux that gives amazing lead support to any team. With intimidate and fake out it can ensure that you neutralize or stall any potential threats the opponent leads with. Intimidate in itself is a premier doubles abilities, partnered with Fake Out and various support moves Hitmontop ensures that can get up hazards, spread status or get off massive damage. Hitmontop is an excellent lead into the bevy of Dark and Steel types commonly led in the tier. The only downside it has is how Fake Out priority works in this generation and how many players are actually running Hitmontop, which forces you into running speed EVs which you would otherwise not care for.


Premier suicide lead in the tier that consistently gets up hazards, outspeeds and threatens the levy of fake out users and carries explosion. It is a good all around lead that can quickly set you up to your desired gameplan.


Fastest viable lead Fake Out user, physically invested can OHKO Max HP Chople Tyranitar with Life Orb Close Combat if not decreased by Intimidate. Carries good STAB combinations for the tier, lead sets can run Stealth Rocks and get an easy kill on most things slower than it.

Niche Leads​

These Pokémon are more niche leads in the tier and although they are relatively unique they are either outclassed by the Pokémon or need dedicated support to work. They are NOT listed in order.


Note, this post is still being updated and will be finished when I have more time.

 

[zee]

We've given 2 days for people to post thoughts and discussion and for now it looks like a pretty clear favorite option. Sand Veil will be banned from DPP DOU, Snow Cloak will remain legal for now.

In addition, we will be banning Garchomp to formally mark it as DUber. This option received near unanimous support from council/community, making it the right option for now. Snow Cloak will be revisited later if necessary.

Tagging DaWoblefet to implement this change when possible, thanks!

 

[Farfromani]

Peaked at #1 (X-1) with my main alt using the wonderful goodstuff team that bunnyy thankfully provided and some other lesser variations of my creation in order to start off and better understand the Garchomp situation. First some general consideration on the tier and metagame and then some insights on Garchomp itself.

-I do really enjoy the meta for now! It reminds me old VGC and ADV DOU a lot but with way more room for mistakes in resource management, which makes it way easier and less frustrating to pick up than most other tiers and I sense an overall strong sense of solidity in most staple Pokémon that discourage very bold predictions and gimmicks. I really hope we are gonna be able to make this metagame more popular 'cause it really strikes an interesting balance between oldgen singles smogon (I'm thinking about ADV the most) and early VGC (especially 09', 11' and 12'). Feel free to DM me if there is some activity you want to organise on this tier, I'd gladly help you since I didn't have this much fun with the mons in a long time.

-While I do believe Hard Trick Room is a viable archetype in this meta, I do feel it doesn't really work as linearly as in the newer generations: the lack of what I would call a "turn one sweeper" (think for example of Torkoal from the SM era onwards) and Bronzong being quite the popular and already super explored yet reliable setter makes the strategy not so straightforward for new players. I would suggest to get aquiented with the meta using Goodstuff or a more balanced Semi-Room first and then go towards something more tricky and less-layered later with more experience and understanding of what can be actually possible in those 4 turns. A lot of my opponents playing with Hard Trick Room ended up losing mostly because of miscalculations on how effective at dealing damage their TR sweepers were.

-At this point of the meta I see a lot of potential in more unorthodox support sets. I was captivated by a Follow Me + Cosmic Power Flame Orb Clefable I've found on ladder. While not particuarly well-suited to the team of my opponent (it was full of mons that didn't really need so much special defensive support) and somewhat gimmicky, the mind-game-y nature of Follow me compliments well Cosmic Power and that really made me theorymon with plenty of similar sets that I still yet have to try. With a limited amount of late-game taunters (from personal experience I've seen Taunt only on lead Azelf), a versatile annoyer and supporter can thrive mid to late game. Thank God I didn't found many of them on ladder.

And now, going into Garchomp:

-Despite my Sand Veil activating only one time, I strongly felt Garchomp's overwhelming presence in most matches when it played a pivotal role: not only it hits hard and outspeeds most of the metagame but is also able to tank some of the supereffective hits from some of its supposed checks, such as Latias's Dragon Pulse and some of the weaker Hidden Power Ice (Defensive Zapdos, Mixed Ape), responding with some really threatening hits. Even only the fact that the opponent needs to checkmate it fast, usually with very costly countermanovers in terms of resource investment. is enough to put my mind at ease in a plethora of situations while strategising. Definitely overpowered.

-While playing against it most of the times I had to strongly focus on it using heavy defensive countermeasures, by switching-in Hitmontop to activate Intimidate or wait for a lock-in of Outrage to switch Metagross in. While less experienced players might just felt discouraged in such a situation, more crafty trainers would definitely take advantage of the fact that the other side of field would almost always be busy busy completely dealing with Chomp to position themselves better long-term for the following turns.
In a metagame where Garchomp is legal not playing a Sand Core with it as its center seems just an inferior choice, competitively speaking. That alone is probably a good reason to call it overcentralising and, if you take evasion also in consideration, it becomes just frustrating to deal with on such a bulky offensive threat: It is guaranteed that there gonna be games where you won't take the coinflip just one time for Chomp, but two or maybe three considering its power level and the presence of Protect-mind games into the equation.

-When it comes to the Evasion in itself, I'm still wondering about what the best course of action would be: I definitely think that Pokémon like Cacturne, Glaceon, Sandlash and Gliscor are already as niche as they can be even with a broken ability but, while somewhat unthreatening in most situation, facing Mamoswine and Froslass under hail might really create so many frustrating and uncompetitive experiences where just one single move would have been enough to put an end at their snowy reign but now you got quite the large hole in your team due to an Earthquake or a double Blizzard hitting your main way to deal rapidly with them. Truth be told tho, I'm not against a total ban of evasion-boosting abilities for the sake of it being a measure against double standards as a whole and possible future exploits. I will try to play an Hail-based team when I can and see what sort of potential Snow Cloak has.

 

[zee]

zeefable vr PATCH 1.1

Tier 1:
Hitmontop
Latios
Rotom* (*heat's probably the best move to have and/or bluff)
Tyranitar

Tier 2:
Azelf
Bronzong
Empoleon
Heatran
Jirachi
Mew

Tier 3:
Gyarados
Infernape
Magnezone
Mamoswine
Metagross
Scizor
Suicune
Zapdos

Tier 4:
Abomasnow
Breloom
Clefable
Cresselia
Flygon
Machamp
Shaymin
Swampert
Togekiss

Tier 5:
Aerodactyl
Dusknoir
Gengar
Glaceon
Kingdra
Latias
Ludicolo
Marowak
Raikou
Roserade
Salamence
Snorlax

 

[ryo yamada2001]

It feels a bit weird to congratulate myself, but I am the winner of the 2nd DPP Weekend Livetour!

Thank you everybody for joining in for our first DPP livetour since the Garchomp ban! I thought it generated a lot of interesting games, replays, and ideas we've been talking about in the #oldgens channel. I hope we can continue to host these weekly DPP tournaments in anticipation for a more formal future forum tournament :)

REPLAYS:
r1
elise vs Lolk
GuitarHeroVGC vs NinjaSnapple
Concept Everything vs bage1
tyo vs Sunrose
zee vs MZB

r2
tyo vs Concept Everything
GuitarHeroVGC vs zee
bage1 vs Sunrose
MZB vs NinjaSnapple

r3
Elise vs GuitarHeroVGC
bage1 vs Concept Everything
zee vs MZB

r4
Elise vs tyo
zee vs Lolk

qf
GuitarHeroVGC vs zee
bage1 vs GuitarHeroVGC

semi-finals
tyo vs bage1

finals
Elise vs bage1

TEAM
My previous goodstuffs team proved effective in my (and others') games so I made a(n admittedly pretty lazy) post-Chomper revision. It's a little boring, but it works :)

importable

Hitmontop (M) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch
- Rapid Spin

Tyranitar @ Chople Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Crunch
- Counter
- Superpower

Empoleon @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 244 HP / 252 SpA / 12 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Grass Knot
- Protect

Mamoswine @ Life Orb
Ability: Snow Cloak
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard
- Toxic
- Protect

Zapdos @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 20 SpA / 236 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Heat Wave
- Thunder Wave
- Protect

Metagross @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Substitute
- Protect

A safe & standard lead. Chople Berry + Counter Tyranitar continues to catch the ubiquitous Hitmontop off guard (e.g. in my game vs Lolk). I love Rapid Spin Hitmontop to keep Zapdos healthy. The other revision is changing Zapdos from Hidden Power Ice into Heat Wave. You no longer need to hit Garchomp, and Fire coverage exerts a lot of pressure on Scizor, Abomasnow, and Bronzong that you didn't have otherwise.

Other choices one might make make according to preference:
- Chople Berry + Counter is hilarious and a legit Hitmontop check, but you might opt into Pursuit to trap post-Draco Meteor Latios instead. In this case you could want to run Lum Berry for a better Rotom-* matchup. Speed creep as you want
- I prefer Hidden Power Electric over Grass Knot; it's not worth hitting Swampert & Gastrodon with Grass-type coverage when Electric-type coverage improves the mirror matchup
- As mentioned prior I ran Roar in finals to get rid of potential setup spam. I don't think it's very good, as it lost to all setup users (SD Scizor, CM Suicune, Cosmic Power Jirachi, DD Gyarados) in a vacuum. I wouldn't like Stealth Rock as third option because Mamoswine mostly covers late phases of the game. Superpower might be viable
- You could change to a slower Roost set, but I like the immediate benefits of Thunder Wave & Protect. A specially defensive Rotom-Heat set w/ Will-o-Wisp would also be strong

I've also made usage stats for this tournament!

Hitmontop reigns supreme, as by far the most ubiquitous Pokémon in the tier. Its role compression -- Fake Out + Intimidate will always be good in every Doubles tier -- and coverage makes it incredibly splashable. Hitmontop found itself in 22 out of 36 leads, which is a testament to its utility and perceived safety early on. Also fascinating is its fourth slot flexibility: this tournament saw players vary between Protect/Detect, Rapid Spin, Helping Hand, and Toxic.

+ other ground types
An assortment of new Ground-types emerged after the Garchomp ban: Mamoswine was king with a 5-0 record and eventual tournament win. It proved useful as late game cleanup with STAB Earthquake, while threatening Flying and Dragon-types with Ice Shard. I didn't end up clicking a non-Attacking move, but for posterity: my third was Toxic (for a better Suicune matchup), and I changed to Roar in the finals out of fear for setup Pokémon that were very prevalent this tournament. Its other victory came as a Snow Cloak abuser in Concept Everything's Blizzard Spam team vs bage1.

Marowak found itself as a Trick Room abuser with setup from Bronzong or Mew. Thick Club Bonemerang makes for a massive Ground-STAB in a tier with several Substitute Steel-types and, much like we saw pre-Week 1 with Rhyperior, Lightning Rod creates opportunities for e.g. Gyarados to set up Dragon Dance (see: bage1 vs Elise).

zee opted into Mixed Choice Scarf Flygon next to Levitators like Rotom-* and Bronzong. It boasts a fast U-Turn pivot, STAB Earthquake, and notably outspeeds and claims a kill on Latios with Draco Meteor.

Other Ground-types saw some less notable usage: Swampert was used as a Stealth Rock setting lead next to Hitmontop, while Lolk brought Blizzard/Muddy Water/Earth Power Gastrodon next to Dusknoir and Abomasnow.

Abomasnow's usage surprised me, especially because it was used less while Garchomp was legal last week. I figured most people were testing Snow Cloak's viability as a response to the Sand Veil ban, but only a stray Mamoswine saw use in this role. Instead it was mostly used in either Trick Room (Frosty Lolkroom, Frosty Blessroom (with GrassWhistle!)) or as Scarf abuser on e.g. tyo's team. Its disproportionate popularity might've contributed to Tyranitar's excellent win rate this week: Abomasnow struggled against and went 0-3 against Sand teams.

Heatran decorates itself with an unflattering 0-5 performance. You'd figure spread Fire-type coverage and a defensive Steel-typing would be good, but it just never seems to succeed. Admittedly it's a low sample size and there was some luck going against it -- like a pivotal Heat Wave miss vs Registeel -- but in most matchups it just feels like it gets forced out quickly, and when it does get to click it's rather underwhelming. Many top tier threats (Tyranitar, Hitmontop, Empoleon) trade favorably, and teams generally stumble into Heatran checks automatically. There's still a lot of other sets to try out but its first impressions are negative so far!

The 'fuck you lmao' tech of the week goes to zee who unleashed a core of + Iron Defense/Calm Mind/Softboiled/...Energy Ball? Mew + Specially defensive Pain Split Rotom-Wash, alongside a Latias and Clefable core. Honorable mention goes to bage1 who unleashed Demon Jirachi: watch how Cosmic Power/Toxic/Iron Head Jirachi creates a nightmare endgame vs tyo.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
I'm planning on hosting the DPP live tournaments in the Doubles PS! room on a weekly basis, in anticipation of a more formal tournament in the next few months. Come join us in #oldgens in the Doubles Discord for more information, discussion, and matchmaking!

 

[AIRedzone]

I will pioneer manual hail by next week, I promise

The Cold Crew Cometh

 

[qsns]

qsns vr, i'll add lower tiers when I play with the 'mons more

Tier 1:
Hitmontop
Rotom-H
Tyranitar

Tier 2:
Azelf
Bronzong
Empoleon
Jirachi
Latios
Metagross
Mew
Zapdos

Tier 3:
Gyarados
Heatran
Magnezone
Mamoswine
Scizor
Suicune
Togekiss

Quick observations:
- Not a weather believer. To me, Tar is the most splashable mon in the tier and shuts down manual Rain instantly. Scarf Aboma seems okay as a standalone mon but building around it further than that seems like a headache when your weather setter is SR weak.
- Building onto that, I value SR neutrality/resistance quite highly, which is why I'm not a Zapdos fan. Incredibly easy to click on Turn 1 with any of TTar, Azelf, Bronzong or Empoleon and get value the entire game, especially with sand chip.
- Specs Rotom-H is a monster, very few switchins to Electric + Ghost and you get to switch into + OHKO Zong/Magnezone/Metagross quite easily. It has been a consistent performer for me. Defensive sets also have a ton of utility.

 

[zee]

Scarf Spore - A Fungus Among Us
​

Scarf Breloom is the newest discussion topic after bage1 swept today's DPP tour with it + a Fake Out Mew lead. Scarf Breloom has very little counterplay besides stacking Lum Berries or running a faster fake out + scarf psychic/flying lead, and we do not feel like this is sustainable. The solution: DPP Doubles OU will be enabling Sleep Clause. Yes, Breloom does still get to fire off a spore, but at the opportunity cost of being locked into a Status move that it can't keep using after turn 1, for now we believe this is enough of a balance for it.

DaWoblefet I appreciate you very much for implementing all the recent adv/dpp changes <3

 

[bagel]

Unnecessarily bloated Bagel VR, tiers aren't ordered, probably forgot some stuff. Will try and keep updating until a real VR is made

Tier 1:
Tyranitar
Latios
Rotom-Heat
Metagross
Mew

Tier 2:
Azelf
Hitmontop
Jirachi
Bronzong
Empoleon
Other Rotoms

Tier 3:
Scizor
Heatran
Mamoswine
Magnezone
Machamp
Zapdos
Suicune
Infernape
Togekiss
Clefable
Shaymin
Breloom
Latias
Raikou

Tier 4:
Abomasnow
Cresselia
Snorlax
Marowak
Kingdra
Ludicolo
Gyarados
Flygon
Salamence
Gliscor
Gengar
Swampert
Camerupt
Hariyama

Tier Potential / Unexplored | Ranging from potential tier 1 (REAL) to shitmon! :
Uxie
Mesprit
Regice
Glaceon
Registeel
Omastar
Kabutops
Drapion
Azumarill
Claydol
Arcanine
Staraptor
Porygon-Z
Gallade
Pinsir
Crobat
Dusknoir
Skarmory
Rhyperior
Hippowdon
Mr. Mime
Lucario
Dragonite
Celebi
Pinsir
Heracross
Aerodactyl

 

[zee]

wanted to make a post on lead theory because I think right now grasping the importance of the opening turns is the first step to getting good at this tier. realistically your lead should have 2 main objectives, which are getting up rocks and putting out more offensive pressure than your opponent. the most common example of a lead that accomplishes this is tyranitar + hitmontop, "the boys" (credit to qsns). you can read more about them below

breakdown

Hitmontop @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: [redacted]
Adamant Nature
- Fake Out
- Close Combat
- Sucker Punch
- Toxic / Protect / Rapid Spin


Tyranitar @ Chople Berry
Ability: Sand Stream
EVs: [redacted]
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Superpower
- Crunch
- Rock Slide / Counter / Protect / 500 more moves

Chople Ttar is virtually* an indestructible lead, as Sand Stream's SpDef Boost + Chople Berry + Hitmontop's Intimidate give it enough survivability into a wide range of attacks. If you're met with an opposing Hitmontop lead, you either have the option of handshaking Fake Outs onto the adjacent non-Hitmontop or the faster Hitmontop can Fake Out the slower one. This only really puts you ahead imo if your Hitmontop partner severely threatens their Hitmontop partner, else you're probably just going to end up with Rocks up on both sides by turn 2 regardless. Lead Tyranitar also gets Sand going such that foes who remain on the field for a while will take significant chip (this can combine well with Hitmontop's Toxic!) which may put foes in range of late game Specs and Scarf cleaners like Latios and Rotom.

While Tyranitar has proven to be one of Hitmontop's most common partners in the metagame's early stages, there are a few others that you can consider when looking to get early game rocks.

breakdown

Bronzong @ Leftovers / Occa Berry / Lum Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: [252 HP / 256 Elsewhere]
Brave Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Gyro Ball
- Earthquake
- Explosion
- Stealth Rock

Bronzong is similar to Tyranitar in that it's pretty hard to remove turn 1 with only one weakness in Fire, and Hitmontop can one shot both Infernape and Heatran if necessary. I like Bronzong for threatening Explosion pressure should the opponent not lead with Intimidate (also works great if conserved for midgames) and just general reliability.


Azelf @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Levitate
EVs: [256 Somewhere] / 252 Speed
Timid / Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Psychic / Explosion
- Fire Blast / Explosion

I'm kinda guessing here bc I haven't played around too much with lead Azelf, but the theory is that it's the 2nd fastest rocker behind Aerodactyl and comes with way more offensive pressure. Colbur + Intimidate helps keep you safe into Tar leads. Taunt stops slower rockers, including Mew which is pretty nice.

Mew and Infernape are unique in that they're the only two viable users of both Fake Out and Stealth Rock concurrently. This gives you some pretty decent role compression options that allow you to explore other lead partners to pressure what would benefit your cleaners. Infernape also packs a lot of offensive pressure with its high BP STABs and Mew can tailor its kit to threaten literally whatever or opt for additional support moves.



Metagross gets a special mention here as a strong check to The Boys and similar lead variations. With a boosting item (Metal Coat/Life Orb/Choice Band), Metagross can OHKO 252/0 Tyranitar with Meteor Mash and blow up Hitmontop with Zen Headbutt.


So now that the lead metagame has been established, we need to think about execution of the first 1-3 turns of battle. Rotom-A can switch into Hitmontop's Close Combats and doesn't worry too much about a -1 Sucker Punch, so if the adjacent non-Hitmontop is vulnerable to Rotom this can be a strong play. qsns also showed me the power of getting the jump on turn 1 rocks by switching in CB Gyarados and proceeding to go on a tear with an unintimidated Choice Band Waterfall. Bulkier teams probably want to consider abusing Toxic spam in the early turns where players have multiple Intimidated pokemon and are fighting for positioning. Hard Trick room in particular might find it ideal to do as much damage to Hitmontop as possible so that its disruption during active Trick Room is minimized.

Fighting for lead positioning feels so important, because afterwards it's a lot of racing to find the perfect pin for your opponent or winning damage trades, and those goals are so much easier for you when you're the one up 6-5 with Rocks.

 

[NinjaSnapple]

Really been enjoying this tier so far and decided to try and build a fullroom team and after some experimentation landed on this and I think it works quite well!



I chose hitmontop and cresselia my leads as hitmontop has access to fake out as well as acting as a check to the ever present Tyranitar. Cresselia is insanely bulky so can almost always live 1 attack to set up trick room. Cresselia holds the macho brace in order to underspeed heatran so it is able to set up sunny day before heatran uses it's fire type moves.

Bronzong is the teams seconadry trick room setter with occa berry helping to negate its weakness to fire type moves. It pairs well with rotom-heat as it's immune to both Earthquake and Explosion.

Heatran and Marowak are the teams two main attackers under trick room.

replays:

vs Bage1

vs Bless

vs May

vs Zeefable

 

[MZB]

Hey MZB here! The following is my personal VR for the current metagame (tier are NOT order)

Thoughts:
While I won't give a super long/detailed explanation, I will give a synopsis of my VR:
- Tier 1: These mons seem to be a step above the rest. I really don't see a world (at least currently) where hitmontop/tyranitar aren't in the top 3 as there arguably the best leads in the tier. Latios nukes everything especially with specs. Rotom has climbed the VR recently and deserves its spot thanks to its great defensive capabilities with immunities to fake-out, ground, and fighting type attacks as well as being able to dish out reliable damage to a majority of the tier. Nothing in this tier should come as too much of a surprise.
- Tier 2: I feel like my tier 2 is somewhat in line with the current general consensus. Empoleon has definitely fallen off in recent times due to the rise of zapdos/rotom, but is still the best water in the tier and is still very reliable. Bronzong/azelf are also one of the best leads in the metagame right now. The "hot-take" in this tier is probably infernape being here, as I believe it's a very good pokemon. It could be used as a lead thanks to being incredibly fast with its fake-out as well as technically being able to set up SR. It can OHKO chople tyranitar (252hp/4def) with close combat (LO+252atk), and overheat can definitely do a massive amount of damage, sometimes even OHKOs, on the bulkier steel types. Fire/Fighting is a great offensive typing, and while it can be a bit of a glass cannon, I think this mon is good in its own right!
- Tier 3: Once again I don't think there is anything too outlandish here. Mew could be tier 2 as some people pointed out so I could see that being the case due to its wide movepool which lets it do whatever the team needs of it. Machamp seems to be rising in popularity as a very strong fighting type with dynamic punch. For the two water types, suicune has proven itself to be a solid calm mind setup mon, but could take a bit to get going; Gyarados is in this tier but I could see it dropping and is more here as I believe it isn't as bad as some of the other tier 4s, but could easily drop due to not being on the same caliber as the other tier 3s. While Heatran, Magnezone, and Scizor are not on the same level as the other steels in tier 2, there are all still perfectly fine options that could successfully fulfill their roles.
- Tier 4: Weavile really needs LO to do any sort of damage and really needs the stars to align perfectly to get the job done. Salamence is just underwhelming, and while I could see maybe a world where that isn't the case, there are just too many things in its way currently. I actually think swampert and registeel actually have potential, but that's something for another time. I won't explaining everything else, but everything else in this tier is solid in its own right if its on the right team.
- Tier 5 is cluttered af lmfao, but I think its cool to consider every possibility because you never know what ends up actually being decent. A majority of these mons will most likely just end up in tier 5 or even UR.

Conclusion:
Overall I really enjoy playing the tier! I think it's super fun and interesting, and I am glad to see the DOU community giving it the attention it deserves. I am excited to see how the meta continues to unfold as we continue to play and explore.

 

[Teals]

I haven't played the format enough to feel like I can tier most things but I would like to share some general opinions on a few pokemon.

Hitmontop

In typical Teal fashion, I don't see this pokemon as a T1 threat. Intimidate and fake out is an incredible combo, but I feel that it mostly drains momentum from the player using it. Without a way to pivot out whether it be eject button or a pivot move, I see that it becomes dead weight once it has clicked fake out and becomes awkward to switch out. On top of that, its damage is underwhelming. Obviously Close Combat is going to hit the things it needs to, but its next best move in sucker punch doesn't do nearly enough to the things its wanting to hit imo. I don't think this pokemon is bad but I think it's closer to T2 or T3.

Metagross

This is the best pokemon and best lead in the format imo. It has an amazing matchup into most of the tiers top threats all while being immune to intimidate. It has an amazing matchup into the omnipresent top+ttar lead, beats latios 1v1, beats all variants of rachi baring superrachi, and has good matchup vs most of the lower tier picks. I'm surprised this isn't ranked higher on people's tier lists.

Swampert

I think swampert is actually quite good. No higher than T3, but worth using more. It beats ttar and has good matchup vs most of the steels. Have only tried rocks + 3 physical attacks, but I think special swampert with either hp electric or hp grass to tech for gyarados or opposing swampert could be quite good as well.

Latias

Most people overlook this mon because latios exists, but I think this mon is still quite good. Most notably when paired with latios. Draco meteor still incredibly strong, has access to bolt beam coverage, and has a variety of support moves. It's basically just a baby latios and is quite good in practice. I'd probably rank it tail end of T2 or high T3.