Resource Doubles Overview, Rules, and Q&A - Ask Questions Here! (Resource Index Inside)

[Cambrian Explosion]

Okay, so let me get this straight
You CAN'T use gravity with sleep powder or hypnosis, and I THINK the reasoning is because they are both 100% accurate in gravity (hypnosis is 97% but its basically 100)
HOWEVER, you're still able to use spore even without gravity? Sleep powder and spore don't affect grass types or pokemon with overcoat, I genuinely don't see why you cant use sleep powder with gravity, its literally just spore 2.0

At this point just ban spore lmao

 

[Platinum God n1n1]

we dont like it, so we dont allow it. Its by majority decision how we arrive at these bans. (except in the case of jirachi in xy)

 

[Arcticblast]

Gravity Sleep Clause was put into place during gen 6 because it made fast sleep users overpowered - the likes of Grasswhistle Whimsicott and Shaymin-Sky (~91% accurate), Hypnosis Mega Gengar and Darkrai (slightly over 100% accurate), and similar things - while simultaneously letting these Pokemon use other inaccurate moves and clearing a path for Landorus-Incarnate to clean up sleeping teams. Something on the archetype had to go. Rather than trying to ban multiple individual Pokemon, Gravity entirely, or sleep entirely, the clause was created. Spore was exempt because its users are slow and it already has perfect accuracy.

It's a little rough around the edges, but it does exactly what it needs to do. Nothing more, nothing less. Even though the team was broken up after gen 8 with Mega Gengar and Darkrai, the clause still does what it's supposed to do, so we elected to keep it in place. If you really want to play against Sing Scream Tail, we can arrange that, but I don't think most other players are too eager to do that.

It's a little bit of a "you had to be there" thing, but trust me, the clause is important.

Cambrian Explosion I moved the post here since it doesn't really need a thread of its own

 

[Cambrian Explosion]

Gravity Sleep Clause was put into place during gen 6 because it made fast sleep users overpowered - the likes of Grasswhistle Whimsicott and Shaymin-Sky (~91% accurate), Hypnosis Mega Gengar and Darkrai (slightly over 100% accurate), and similar things - while simultaneously letting these Pokemon use other inaccurate moves and clearing a path for Landorus-Incarnate to clean up sleeping teams. Something on the archetype had to go. Rather than trying to ban multiple individual Pokemon, Gravity entirely, or sleep entirely, the clause was created. Spore was exempt because its users are slow and it already has perfect accuracy.

It's a little rough around the edges, but it does exactly what it needs to do. Nothing more, nothing less. Even though the team was broken up after gen 8 with Mega Gengar and Darkrai, the clause still does what it's supposed to do, so we elected to keep it in place. If you really want to play against Sing Scream Tail, we can arrange that, but I don't think most other players are too eager to do that.

It's a little bit of a "you had to be there" thing, but trust me, the clause is important.

Cambrian Explosion I moved the post here since it doesn't really need a thread of its own

ohhhhhhhhh
ok i understand now

 

[Apo1lo0017]

Not sure if this is a bug or how it's supposed to work, but when I use spread moves with toxic chain (I was using fez with heat wave, d-gleam, and icy wind), it looks like it's a 30% chance to badly poison both opponents simultaneously instead of individual chances for each target. Is this how it's supposed to work or is it bugged?

 

[DaWoblefet]

Not sure if this is a bug or how it's supposed to work, but when I use spread moves with toxic chain (I was using fez with heat wave, d-gleam, and icy wind), it looks like it's a 30% chance to badly poison both opponents simultaneously instead of individual chances for each target. Is this how it's supposed to work or is it bugged?

On cartridge, the poison chance is independent for each target of a spread move. However, it already correctly works that way on Showdown.

 

[Apo1lo0017]

On cartridge, the poison chance is independent for each target of a spread move. However, it already correctly works that way on Showdown.

Hm, I guess I just have *really* strange luck. In like 7 or 8 games, every toxic chain poisoned both of them, and it seemed like it was a 30% chance because of how often it was. Strange.

 

[sumwun]

Is Decidueye viable or does it have any niche in any of the gen 8 doubles tiers? Does anyone know which Pokemon are viable in gen 8 Doubles NU?

 

[Arcticblast]

Unfortunately, Decidueye has never been viable in any Doubles format, and there has been little to no exploration of gen 8 Doubles NU. There just isn't enough interest to actually support the format, especially now that the one you're looking for is no longer current generation.

 

[sumwun]

Gen 8 RU had to be explored in order to create gen 8 NU, right? What outclasses Decidueye in gen 8 RU?

 

[Arcticblast]

There was no gen 8 Doubles RU either. We just kind of stopped at DUU.

 

[sumwun]

So what outclasses it in gen 8 DUU?

 

[Arcticblast]

It's not really a matter of being outclassed, Decidueye just... doesn't really have any redeeming qualities. Its stats are mediocre at best, its typing isn't particularly useful, and its movepool is nothing to write home about. It can set up, but its 70 base Speed and medium offenses don't make for a very threatening sweeper. It can provide some support with moves like Knock Off and Tailwind, but it isn't bulky enough to keep these moves coming all game. It can try to do both, but then it's just an awkward hodgepodge of a Pokemon.

I don't really think anybody's played gen 8 DUU in a while, since oldgen DUU and DUbers formats tend to die off due to the overall lower Doubles playerbase, but you can find the gen 8 DUU thread here (it is currently closed) and you can always ask for games in the Smogon Doubles room on Pokemon Showdown.

 

[pokemont]

What are the most competitively viable Pokémon reintroduced in the new SV DLC? I heard Gliscor got a nice buff with Toxic Spikes.

 

[Actuarily]

What are the most competitively viable Pokémon reintroduced in the new SV DLC? I heard Gliscor got a nice buff with Toxic Spikes.

You can look at some of the most recent posts on the VR rankings to see which Pokémon people think have been most impacted by the new DLC, like this post here.

Overall, the most impactful new Pokémon added are the different Ogerpon forms. Other Pokémon have also made impacts like Kommo-o, Sinistcha, and Milotic. Weather setters like Politoed, Ninetales-Alola, and Ninetales have also seen some use. But arguably what’s been most impactful to the metagame are some of the new moves for older Pokémon, with stuff like grassy glide returning.

 

[pokemont]

What makes Vikavolt viable enough for Doubles OU?

 

[Actuarily]

What makes Vikavolt viable enough for Doubles OU?

I am not sure where we are getting the idea that it is viable, as Vikavolt was just made legal, and immediately moved down to DUU, and it has not been suggested to be added to the VR in any way.

However, if one really wanted to use it, perhaps they could make use of Sticky Webs, or use it as a Trick Room attacker since it has a solid matchup into Pokémon like Cresselia, Rillaboom, and the Ogerpons.

 

[pokemont]

I am not sure where we are getting the idea that it is viable, as Vikavolt was just made legal, and immediately moved down to DUU, and it has not been suggested to be added to the VR in any way.

However, if one really wanted to use it, perhaps they could make use of Sticky Webs, or use it as a Trick Room attacker since it has a solid matchup into Pokémon like Cresselia, Rillaboom, and the Ogerpons.

That's weird. When I saw Vikavolt in Showdown!'s Teambuilder it said that it was tiered DOU.

 

[Actuarily]

That's weird. When I saw Vikavolt in Showdown!'s Teambuilder it said that it was tiered DOU.

Ah, that seems to be a mistake, thanks for pointing it out, we’ll try to get that fixed.

 

[selfiehater]

I have 3 simple questions.

1. Why is Darkrai banned?

2. When was Shadow Tag banned from Doubles?

3. Basculegion-M looks to be DBL on Showdown and unranked (not even Tier 5) in the Viability Rankings, yet it is being suspected. I know usage doesn't equal viability but this still confuses me a lot. How is this possible, especially with Bascu-F being ranked and DOU?

 

[Test Bots]

I have 3 simple questions.

1. Why is Darkrai banned?

2. When was Shadow Tag banned from Doubles?

3. Basculegion-M looks to be DBL on Showdown and unranked (not even Tier 5) in the Viability Rankings, yet it is being suspected. I know usage doesn't equal viability but this still confuses me a lot. How is this possible, especially with Bascu-F being ranked and DOU?

View attachment 563064

Darkrai probably got banned due to being a fast sleep enforcer. Shadow Tag got banned sometime when Gothitelle had Fake Out. Basc-M has been unbanned for post DLC meta and suspected again; all these were done within a month which isn't enough time for showdown to update its formats.

 

[Arcticblast]

I have 3 simple questions.

1. Why is Darkrai banned?

2. When was Shadow Tag banned from Doubles?

3. Basculegion-M looks to be DBL on Showdown and unranked (not even Tier 5) in the Viability Rankings, yet it is being suspected. I know usage doesn't equal viability but this still confuses me a lot. How is this possible, especially with Bascu-F being ranked and DOU?

View attachment 563064

Darkrai was banned because Dark Void is completely and unforgivably busted. Getting a double sleep means you basically win the game on the spot. While the low accuracy means you can't reliably get the double sleep, it's still the strongest thing Darkrai could do, and relying on a 50% spread sleep move means the game comes down more to RNG rolls than player skill expression. Whether Darkrai or Dark Void should have been banned is a hotly contested topic, and you can see this thread for more. (It's my thread! I forgot to post recently. We did a suspect test and I've been thinking more about that.)

Shadow Tag is banned because the Gothitelle line got access to Fake Out and Hypnosis, making them a lot more capable of causing havoc on the battlefield. Singles has shown that Eviolite Gothorita isn't that much worse than Gothitelle, so banning Shadow Tag means we don't have to deal with the line at all.

Basculegion-M was banned from DOU via suspect test before the release of the DLC. On one of the last quickban slates of the DLC, the DOU tiering council voted to unban Basculegion. Because it was only in the DOU format for a week before monthly stats came out, Basculegion dropped to DUU, where it was hideously broken and banned. Recently, Basculegion was suspect tested and banned with an even higher vote margin than the previous suspect test, so DBL will cease to exist soon. As for the Viability Rankings, they just haven't been updated yet. Now that the suspect test is over, the VR should be updated soon :)

 

[selfiehater]

Shadow Tag is banned because the Gothitelle line got access to Fake Out and Hypnosis, making them a lot more capable of causing havoc on the battlefield. Singles has shown that Eviolite Gothorita isn't that much worse than Gothitelle, so banning Shadow Tag means we don't have to deal with the line at all.

Why weren't/aren't the two Goths simply banned instead of Shadow Tag though?

 

[Smudge]

Why weren't/aren't the two Goths simply banned instead of Shadow Tag though?

Banning only Shadow Tag is in line with the tiering policy that seeks to make bans as simple as possible. (Reducing the number of things and combinations of things banned)
Shadow Tag is the problematic element, not Gothitelle and the pre-evolutions inherently, so that's what's removed. Gothitelle with Competitive for example is not an issue.

 

[ryo yamada2001]

Banning only Shadow Tag is in line with the tiering policy that seeks to make bans as simple as possible. (Reducing the number of things and combinations of things banned)
Shadow Tag is the problematic element, not Gothitelle and the pre-evolutions inherently, so that's what's removed. Gothitelle with Competitive for example is not an issue.

How come Tatsugiri is banned instead of Commander, then? Wouldn't Tatsugiri with Storm Drain be fine, as Commander is the problematic element? How about banning Dark Void instead of Darkrai?