Aipom
minccino a bit, too
In several threads i've been talking of aipom for a while, now. However these were short explanations, because i wouldn't post a entire page on the analysis, or on the lc rolls thread as it wasn't designed for that.
Here i will make a ... thesis ? on aipom, which will cover up the following points :
- Aipom overview as an introduction
- How does (stabbed + skill linked) Fury Swipes work in LC and why does it make aipom awesome
- The effect of LO
- Adamant or Jolly ?
- Teambuilding around Aipom : partners
- What about Minccino ?
Aipom Overview
Normal type
55/70/55/40/55/85 BS. Total : 360
Pickup / Skill link
Aipom is a normal type monkey that hits 19 speed and okay attack (16 w/ jolly). It has respectable bulk (55/55/55 = 21 hp ; 12 def ; 12 sdef without investment) and is the emblem of the newbie pokemon, this due to its attractive speed and power, but apparently terrible typing (and because of the way low ladder players use it - as i write those lines big mamoswine linked me his battle to see the opponent using attract aipom. sigh).
Its movepool includes : Normal attacks + Fake out + Knock off + Brick Break + U-turn + Elemental punches + Gunk Shot + Pursuit + Thunder Wave + Taunt + Seed Bomb (+ Baton pass + Hone Claws)
i'm not bothering the gimmick here, like, nasty plot passing, ok, but not over 1200..
Its indeed versatile. Aipom is actually the most equilibrate mon ever (except for speed)
It can fight anyone pretty well while never going out scarless, it can kill anyone with the proper attack since its movepool is the widest ever, it can fight any kind of team (fake out for ho, taunt for stalls, knock off for bulky teams) with the proper moveset.
Its attack is good without being incredible, and contrary to a popular belief, it's not in glass. It has better innate defensive stats than mienfoo. Its normal typing also leaves it neutral to about everything, while giving x0 to ghost and x2 to fighting - not a terrible typing imo.
It's, well, a swiss army knife. Won't 6-0, won't ever be useless. Its worse opponents are statuses.
The main flaw of aipom is that it doesn't have a role. This is the clever main objection to its usage. As a normal type it obviously doesn't cover anything for your team, and it's a neutral attacker.
Similarly to some others pokemons, such as Abra, Aipom is very good by itself, but isn't a teamplayer. It can actually 1v1 mienfoo without even faking out (or OHKOing if LO..). However it doesn't fit in any team as it doesn't bring any offensive, nor defensive coverage.
It needs little support, and brings little to the balance of the team. A lonely wolf actually. Except that it's a monkey.
55/70/55/40/55/85 BS. Total : 360
Pickup / Skill link
Aipom is a normal type monkey that hits 19 speed and okay attack (16 w/ jolly). It has respectable bulk (55/55/55 = 21 hp ; 12 def ; 12 sdef without investment) and is the emblem of the newbie pokemon, this due to its attractive speed and power, but apparently terrible typing (and because of the way low ladder players use it - as i write those lines big mamoswine linked me his battle to see the opponent using attract aipom. sigh).
Beginner's Guide said:
By scapegoat, i do mean scapegoat.Viability Thread said:
Its movepool includes : Normal attacks + Fake out + Knock off + Brick Break + U-turn + Elemental punches + Gunk Shot + Pursuit + Thunder Wave + Taunt + Seed Bomb (+ Baton pass + Hone Claws)
i'm not bothering the gimmick here, like, nasty plot passing, ok, but not over 1200..
Its indeed versatile. Aipom is actually the most equilibrate mon ever (except for speed)
It can fight anyone pretty well while never going out scarless, it can kill anyone with the proper attack since its movepool is the widest ever, it can fight any kind of team (fake out for ho, taunt for stalls, knock off for bulky teams) with the proper moveset.
Its attack is good without being incredible, and contrary to a popular belief, it's not in glass. It has better innate defensive stats than mienfoo. Its normal typing also leaves it neutral to about everything, while giving x0 to ghost and x2 to fighting - not a terrible typing imo.
It's, well, a swiss army knife. Won't 6-0, won't ever be useless. Its worse opponents are statuses.
The main flaw of aipom is that it doesn't have a role. This is the clever main objection to its usage. As a normal type it obviously doesn't cover anything for your team, and it's a neutral attacker.
Similarly to some others pokemons, such as Abra, Aipom is very good by itself, but isn't a teamplayer. It can actually 1v1 mienfoo without even faking out (or OHKOing if LO..). However it doesn't fit in any team as it doesn't bring any offensive, nor defensive coverage.
It needs little support, and brings little to the balance of the team. A lonely wolf actually. Except that it's a monkey.
The cogs of Stabbed Skill Link + Fury Swipes, or how why does Aipom inflict so many damages / how to use properly Aipom.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/lc-rolls-explained.3508889/
^ i actually discovered that trough a methematic analysis of LC rolls. If you want the justification of what will i say under, check it.
First, Fury Swipes does more damages than return in most situations. Yes that can be weird according to base power, but these are facts.
Understanding Fury Swipes damages is understanding the damages of one proc of Fury Swipes. You just have to multiply by 5 and possibly add crit/hyper roll damages to get Fury Swipes damages.
The damages are in 15 case on 16, 1 + something depending of the attack, in the last case, 1 more.
([3]*15,[4], for exemple)
In the formula, you have initial damages, you round down, apply the stab, then round down again.
If the initial damage is 1 : 1->1.5(stab)->1(round down) (i'm talking of the 15/16 roll) ... *5 = 5
2 : 2->3(stab) ... *5 = 15
3 : 3->4.5->4 ... *5 = 20
I think quantified is the appropriate word to describe Fury Swipes damages.
After multiplying by 5, they will be either 5, either 15, either 20.
These are your damages depending of the opponent physical def, and your nature (assuming you're max atk)
Jolly Aipom :
8-11 defense - 20 damages
12-23 defense - 15 damages
24+ defense - 5 damages
Adamant Aipom :
9-12 defense - 20 damages
13-24 defense - 15 damages
25+ defense - 5 damages
In the case your opponent resists normal :
Jolly Aipom :
8-11 - 10 damages
12+ - 5 damages
Adamant Aipom :
9-12 - 10 damages
13+ - 5 damages
Note that 24 def is 16 def with eviolite (porygon, spritzee..)
Given this number, you can notice that against any bulky mon which isn't a wall, Aipom will do 15 damages with fury swipes. Which means a clean 2HKO.
But actually, it can do more : when not missing fury swipes, (...) you have 5 attempt to crit, and 5 attempt to get a hyper roll (the 1/16 one). It ends up making a high probability that you will actually do more than 15 or 20 :
There is 47% chance that the damages inflicted will be higher than expected.
When expecting to do 15, every crit or hyper roll will give you +1, when expecting to do 20, every crit or hyper roll will do +2. Which means 22 damages or more nearly half time. (12% having 2 hyperolls/crits actually)
Now let's come back to Aipom's offensive abilities :
Aipom has, with skill link + stabbed multi hit, fairly the best attack in lc to wallbreak, or OHKO nearly everyone with a life orb.
What Aipom's remaining moves must bring is support to the team, and coverage.
And with Aipom demential movepool, fairly not hard.
Normal is resisted by steel, rock, and ghost. Fighting/Dark hits steel, rock and ghost.
Knock off is mandatory as it doesn't only allow Aipom to murder the incoming ghost types, but it also allows it to lower the opponent defense in the case they're over his 15 damages cap : 16def+eviolite for jolly one, 17def+eviolite for adamant one.
Brick break is nice, because fuck pawniard, but if pawniard wasn't in the top 3 usage, i wouldn't run brick break, but rather seed bomb. Steel doesn't exist, and anyway, when facing ferroseed, i'd rather knock off on the switch then run away by fear of being paralyzed. But pawniard is top tier, so ... yes, brick break. Or fire punch ! But it doesn't OHKO, not even the scarf.
The 4th slot is customizable.
By order of viability :
^ i actually discovered that trough a methematic analysis of LC rolls. If you want the justification of what will i say under, check it.
First, Fury Swipes does more damages than return in most situations. Yes that can be weird according to base power, but these are facts.
Understanding Fury Swipes damages is understanding the damages of one proc of Fury Swipes. You just have to multiply by 5 and possibly add crit/hyper roll damages to get Fury Swipes damages.
The damages are in 15 case on 16, 1 + something depending of the attack, in the last case, 1 more.
([3]*15,[4], for exemple)
In the formula, you have initial damages, you round down, apply the stab, then round down again.
If the initial damage is 1 : 1->1.5(stab)->1(round down) (i'm talking of the 15/16 roll) ... *5 = 5
2 : 2->3(stab) ... *5 = 15
3 : 3->4.5->4 ... *5 = 20
I think quantified is the appropriate word to describe Fury Swipes damages.
After multiplying by 5, they will be either 5, either 15, either 20.
These are your damages depending of the opponent physical def, and your nature (assuming you're max atk)
Jolly Aipom :
8-11 defense - 20 damages
12-23 defense - 15 damages
24+ defense - 5 damages
Adamant Aipom :
9-12 defense - 20 damages
13-24 defense - 15 damages
25+ defense - 5 damages
In the case your opponent resists normal :
Jolly Aipom :
8-11 - 10 damages
12+ - 5 damages
Adamant Aipom :
9-12 - 10 damages
13+ - 5 damages
Note that 24 def is 16 def with eviolite (porygon, spritzee..)
Given this number, you can notice that against any bulky mon which isn't a wall, Aipom will do 15 damages with fury swipes. Which means a clean 2HKO.
But actually, it can do more : when not missing fury swipes, (...) you have 5 attempt to crit, and 5 attempt to get a hyper roll (the 1/16 one). It ends up making a high probability that you will actually do more than 15 or 20 :
There is 47% chance that the damages inflicted will be higher than expected.
When expecting to do 15, every crit or hyper roll will give you +1, when expecting to do 20, every crit or hyper roll will do +2. Which means 22 damages or more nearly half time. (12% having 2 hyperolls/crits actually)
Now let's come back to Aipom's offensive abilities :
Aipom has, with skill link + stabbed multi hit, fairly the best attack in lc to wallbreak, or OHKO nearly everyone with a life orb.
What Aipom's remaining moves must bring is support to the team, and coverage.
And with Aipom demential movepool, fairly not hard.
Normal is resisted by steel, rock, and ghost. Fighting/Dark hits steel, rock and ghost.
Knock off is mandatory as it doesn't only allow Aipom to murder the incoming ghost types, but it also allows it to lower the opponent defense in the case they're over his 15 damages cap : 16def+eviolite for jolly one, 17def+eviolite for adamant one.
Brick break is nice, because fuck pawniard, but if pawniard wasn't in the top 3 usage, i wouldn't run brick break, but rather seed bomb. Steel doesn't exist, and anyway, when facing ferroseed, i'd rather knock off on the switch then run away by fear of being paralyzed. But pawniard is top tier, so ... yes, brick break. Or fire punch ! But it doesn't OHKO, not even the scarf.
The 4th slot is customizable.
By order of viability :
- Fake out seems the logicest, as it allows safe 2hkoes, and by repeated use, the finish of a setted-up sweeper. And it hits fairly hard too, let's not forget aipom has 16 or 17 atk. On the LO set, i consider Fake out mandatory
- Taunt is also a very good choice to cripple stall teams. Evio Aipom has enough bulk to survivre repeated attacks from low power stallers.
- U-turn makes Aipom a good pivot. Aipom checks are so few your opponent usually has only one ...
- Substitute ! Yes, odd, but given Aipom's trend to attract all the statuses, it can actually be usefull in plenty of situation.
- Hone claws : bored of missing fury swipes ? At +1, it can't, and you will do 15 damages at least to everyone not resisting, and 20 to [17def- for jolly ; 18def- for adamant]
- Seed Bomb : fuck defensive tirtouga. But i would recommand having partners ... losing a very usefull slot for something that is barely played, and that you will knock off first anyway ?
- Thunder Wave : a choice for adamant Aipom. If the opponent is faster / if you won't ohko it and thus prevent it from setting up (moxie scraggy typically) / if it's game decisive and you don't want to risk it by using fury swipes and missing
What about the Life Orb ?
The Life Orb effect applies at the very end. It multiplies by 1.3, and rounds.
It means that :
1 becomes 1
3 becomes 4
4 becomes 5
Multiplied by 5, it means that :
5 becomes 5
15 becomes 20
20 becomes 25
To sum it up, Fake Out + Fury Swipes kills absolutely EVERYTHING... that wouldn't have taken 5 damages without LO, because it still does only 5 damages. Well, can still knock off anyway. Seeing LO Aipom knocking off full hp full def Hippopotas on the switch + kill with fury swipes is .. uh.. insane ?..
LO also raises 10 to 15. 10 happens when it's a powerfull uneffective attack. It will then do 15 instead of 10.
However, Aipom loses its bulk when using LO. It makes it weaker to things like pawniard, which would barely 2hko otherwise : 236 Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Aipom: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
It means that :
1 becomes 1
3 becomes 4
4 becomes 5
Multiplied by 5, it means that :
5 becomes 5
15 becomes 20
20 becomes 25
To sum it up, Fake Out + Fury Swipes kills absolutely EVERYTHING... that wouldn't have taken 5 damages without LO, because it still does only 5 damages. Well, can still knock off anyway. Seeing LO Aipom knocking off full hp full def Hippopotas on the switch + kill with fury swipes is .. uh.. insane ?..
LO also raises 10 to 15. 10 happens when it's a powerfull uneffective attack. It will then do 15 instead of 10.
However, Aipom loses its bulk when using LO. It makes it weaker to things like pawniard, which would barely 2hko otherwise : 236 Atk Pawniard Iron Head vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Aipom: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Adamant or Jolly ?
Contrary to a popular belief (yes you see since i'm terribad at english when i find a sentence i reuse it 3 times so i'm sure i wrote at least a line without mistakes), Jolly Aipom is thrice better than Adamant Aipom.
After spreading the word, a poll posted in the LC room about Aipom's nature gave surprisingly high results toward Adamant Aipom : http://strawpoll.me/2028415/r , and i will explain why here :
What does Jolly win over Adamant ?
Speed. you don't say ?!?
It loses speed tie with all the 19 speed mons (abra, misdreavus, taillow, offensive ponya and staryu...) and gains tie with the 18 speed mons : gastly and doduo, mainly. However these are usually scarf, so it doesn't really matter.
To sum it up, Aipom will always lose the speed tie with 19 speed mons as it's not a speed tie.
What does Adamant win over Jolly ?
Damages. you don't say ?!?
I'll put it in the form of a list (and i'm talking of evio aipom, for lo, just add 5 to 15 and 20):
After spreading the word, a poll posted in the LC room about Aipom's nature gave surprisingly high results toward Adamant Aipom : http://strawpoll.me/2028415/r , and i will explain why here :
What does Jolly win over Adamant ?
Speed. you don't say ?!?
It loses speed tie with all the 19 speed mons (abra, misdreavus, taillow, offensive ponya and staryu...) and gains tie with the 18 speed mons : gastly and doduo, mainly. However these are usually scarf, so it doesn't really matter.
To sum it up, Aipom will always lose the speed tie with 19 speed mons as it's not a speed tie.
What does Adamant win over Jolly ?
Damages. you don't say ?!?
I'll put it in the form of a list (and i'm talking of evio aipom, for lo, just add 5 to 15 and 20):
- Adamant Aipom will do 20 damages to 12 def targets instead of 15. [Knocked off offensive mienfoos for exemple]
- It will do 15 damages to 24(16+evio)def targets instead of 5. <- main reason to use adamant aipom
- (Minor advantages under) It will gain set scouting abilities with fake out : Fake out does 4 damages to 12+evio targets, and 4 to 14/15+evio targets, which allows to identify the mienfoo set when leading, for exemple. (jolly always does 4)
- +2 damages to Misdreavus with knock off
Teambuilding around Aipom.
Aipom fears 3 things.
1. Its worse ennemies, statuses. People will h24 think about switching their misdreavus into your incoming Fury Swipes/Fake out. I'm not saying to spam knock off, i'm simply stating that Aipom vs Misdreavus will happen h24. And in this situation, unless Misdreavus has suicide issues, it will burn Aipom. And Aipom will most likely Knock off, especially if you think you will be able to cure the status later on !
2. Tanky rock/steel types. Knock off, brick break, ok. But unless you're LO, ferroseed will only be 3HKOed and tirtouga doesn't give a single fuck. (except about losing its eviolite)
3. Fighters that comes to RK it. This is not always true, but when Timburr comes in to rk while being full hp, nice, you could blow more than 20 hp if you're LO. And so what ? Timburr drain punches and OHKO. Fighters are unable to come on an Aipom attack, but unless it's low hp invested mienfoo or gunk, Aipom won't be able to openly 1v1 them.
To solve the statuses issue, you can absorb them into a guts user, or heal them.
Which means, using Timburr, or Spritzee.
However Timburr will not be able to safely switch into misdreavus, as some (like, sub np sball dgleam) will dgleam aipom for damages. But timburr handles tanky rock/steel types, obviously. It's a good partner for Aipom, but not perfect.
Timburr solves "a bit" problem 1, and solves problem 2.
Spritzee solves problem 1 : it cures statuses ! And it also solves problem 3. (unless it's gunk D:)
In my opinion, the best Aipom partner.
Croagunk walls fighters, and is a fighter. Thus it solves problems 2 and 3. It makes it a very good partner.
In my opinion, the Aipom + Spritzee + hp psychic Croagunk is one the best core i've ever used.
Yo dawg, i herd you liek gunk. So i give you hp psychic gunk so you can counter gunk and kill gunk while being a gunk and being countered by the opponent's gunk.
1. Its worse ennemies, statuses. People will h24 think about switching their misdreavus into your incoming Fury Swipes/Fake out. I'm not saying to spam knock off, i'm simply stating that Aipom vs Misdreavus will happen h24. And in this situation, unless Misdreavus has suicide issues, it will burn Aipom. And Aipom will most likely Knock off, especially if you think you will be able to cure the status later on !
2. Tanky rock/steel types. Knock off, brick break, ok. But unless you're LO, ferroseed will only be 3HKOed and tirtouga doesn't give a single fuck. (except about losing its eviolite)
3. Fighters that comes to RK it. This is not always true, but when Timburr comes in to rk while being full hp, nice, you could blow more than 20 hp if you're LO. And so what ? Timburr drain punches and OHKO. Fighters are unable to come on an Aipom attack, but unless it's low hp invested mienfoo or gunk, Aipom won't be able to openly 1v1 them.
To solve the statuses issue, you can absorb them into a guts user, or heal them.
Which means, using Timburr, or Spritzee.
However Timburr will not be able to safely switch into misdreavus, as some (like, sub np sball dgleam) will dgleam aipom for damages. But timburr handles tanky rock/steel types, obviously. It's a good partner for Aipom, but not perfect.
Timburr solves "a bit" problem 1, and solves problem 2.
Spritzee solves problem 1 : it cures statuses ! And it also solves problem 3. (unless it's gunk D:)
In my opinion, the best Aipom partner.
Croagunk walls fighters, and is a fighter. Thus it solves problems 2 and 3. It makes it a very good partner.
In my opinion, the Aipom + Spritzee + hp psychic Croagunk is one the best core i've ever used.
Yo dawg, i herd you liek gunk. So i give you hp psychic gunk so you can counter gunk and kill gunk while being a gunk and being countered by the opponent's gunk.
What about Minccino ?
Minccino, similarly to Aipom, is a normal type having Skill Link. It also has access to Tail slap, which has higher power than Fury Swipes, and better accuracy (85% over 80%).
- : However, it is deeply flawed trough its stats.
Instead of having 23/12/12 tanking, it reaches 22/11/11 (unability to reach the next step of eviolite numbers :v).
Also, it reaches 18 instead of 19 speed with a positive nature.
Finally, it also has 14 attack instead of 16 without nature.
Its movepool is also inferior, as it doesn't learn Fake out which is really good on such a normal type physical attacker.
+ : Tail Slap is a solid improvement over Fury Swipes, however. Tail slap will do 15 damages to 24 and 27 def targets, where jolly does 5 damages, and adamant does 15 damages to 24 def, but not 27.
... but who has 18 def +evio without resisting normal : hippopotas, vullaby, and that's it ?
But given what i read in the viability thread, let's be clear on one thing concerning Minccino case : Jolly Minccino is a reduced Adamant Aipom. Nearly same damages with 14 attack Tail slap than with 17 attack Fury Swipes, but less tanking, less movepool, less everything else. (cuteness apart)
- : However, it is deeply flawed trough its stats.
Instead of having 23/12/12 tanking, it reaches 22/11/11 (unability to reach the next step of eviolite numbers :v).
Also, it reaches 18 instead of 19 speed with a positive nature.
Finally, it also has 14 attack instead of 16 without nature.
Its movepool is also inferior, as it doesn't learn Fake out which is really good on such a normal type physical attacker.
+ : Tail Slap is a solid improvement over Fury Swipes, however. Tail slap will do 15 damages to 24 and 27 def targets, where jolly does 5 damages, and adamant does 15 damages to 24 def, but not 27.
... but who has 18 def +evio without resisting normal : hippopotas, vullaby, and that's it ?
But given what i read in the viability thread, let's be clear on one thing concerning Minccino case : Jolly Minccino is a reduced Adamant Aipom. Nearly same damages with 14 attack Tail slap than with 17 attack Fury Swipes, but less tanking, less movepool, less everything else. (cuteness apart)
Summary
Aipom pros : Coverage, movepool, Fury Swipes+Skill link, Fake Out.
Fury Swipes functionment :
Jolly Aipom :
8-11 defense - 20 damages
12-23 defense - 15 damages
24+ defense - 5 damages
Adamant Aipom :
9-12 defense - 20 damages
13-24 defense - 15 damages
25+ defense - 5 damages
Aipom cons : Neutrality to everything. Doesn't fulfill any role on the team. By role i don't mean sweeper / physical attacker, i mean countering a pokemon in particular, or something like that. And fury swipes can miss -_-
Aipom counters :
Flame body ponyta, and that's all.
Statuses are Aipom's worse ennemies.
Aipom partners :
What can handle tanky rock/steel mons (fighter), what can cure statuses (clerics), what can handle opponent fighters. (fairies mainly)
Top 3 partners :
Fury Swipes functionment :
Jolly Aipom :
8-11 defense - 20 damages
12-23 defense - 15 damages
24+ defense - 5 damages
Adamant Aipom :
9-12 defense - 20 damages
13-24 defense - 15 damages
25+ defense - 5 damages
Aipom cons : Neutrality to everything. Doesn't fulfill any role on the team. By role i don't mean sweeper / physical attacker, i mean countering a pokemon in particular, or something like that. And fury swipes can miss -_-
Aipom counters :
Flame body ponyta, and that's all.
Statuses are Aipom's worse ennemies.
Aipom partners :
What can handle tanky rock/steel mons (fighter), what can cure statuses (clerics), what can handle opponent fighters. (fairies mainly)
Top 3 partners :
What if you use Hone Claws (+1 atk)
At +1 in attack, your damages will be :
Jolly Aipom :
11 and less - 30 damages
12-17 defense - 20 damages
18+ defense - 15 damages
Adamant Aipom :
12 and less - 30 damages
13-18 - 20 damages
19+ defense - 15 damages
Jolly Aipom :
11 and less - 30 damages
12-17 defense - 20 damages
18+ defense - 15 damages
Adamant Aipom :
12 and less - 30 damages
13-18 - 20 damages
19+ defense - 15 damages
I hope this thread will help in the current Aipom's viability discussion in the ranking thread.
And tell me if you want colors for the thread to be less ugly, because several pages of black on white isn't usually fun to read.
Last edits :
- I love spoilers.
- Minccino damages calc added.
- Summary added
- What if you use Hone Claws part added (basically dedicated to blajaran)
Last edited:
