Dialga

[Manaphy]

comment on anything since dialga can run so much

http://www.smogon.com/download/sprites/bw/488.png
Overview
########
-gr8 typing, fuck fairies
-really good stealth rock setter
-really bulky, can check a lot of pokemon
-gr8 wallbreaker, hard to wall
-pretty much all of it's moves got nerfed
-speed creeping is gay
-no more dark and ghost resists kinda sucks

Stealth Rock
########
name: Stealth Rock
move 1: Stealth Rock
move 2: Draco Meteor
move 3: Toxic
move 4: Fire Blast / Roar
ability: Pressure
item: Leftovers
evs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
nature: Modest

Moves
========
-stealth rock is really good. Dialga can beat many defoggers easy: Arceus-Rock, Arceus-Fairy, Scizor, Giratina-O, Arceus-Water, etc either though attacking or Toxic stalling
-Draco Meteor is your most powerful STAB option and you're often not staying in long enough for the SAtk drop to matter much
-Toxic is an all-purpose attack, especially useful for hitting support arceus who commonly doesn't mind Dialga's normal attacks
-Fire Blast is so that you aren't walled by Steels who resist Dragon and Toxic
-Roar synergizes well with Stealth Rock and also allows you to prevent immediate threats like Xerneas and Charizard from setting up on you (who can get a few kills in before Toxic would normally kill them)
-Flash Cannon can be run for smacking Fairies, but in most cases it's going to be weak and outclassed by Fire Blast/Roar

Set Details
========
-Max/Max just to make Dialga bulky as possible
-52 Satk / 200 Sdef Modest lets you take two lustrous spacial rends and non-specs water spouts and hit much harder than you usually would.


Usage Tips
========
-stealth rock up, proceed to kill things
-Toxic defogers since they can get rid of SR, usually they can't do much back
-dialga is a p. good backup check to stuff like Palkia, Kyogre, Zekrom, etc.
-beware of Landorus-T/Groudon as some run Earth Plate and can OHKO you

Team Options
========
-Cleric Fairy-types are annoying since Dialga without Flash Cannon can't do much back. Running Mega Gengar or a solid Steel-type helps with this.
-you're still gonna want to have a defoger on your team since you don't want to lose to sticky web/spikes
-dialga is pretty flexible as far as fitting on teams. It's ability to (kinda) check so much stuff means you don't necessarily need as hard checks for some things
-great fit on teams that really appreciate having stealth rock up all the time
-checks to ground types are nice, stuff like Gliscor, Giratina-O, Grass Arceus, Yveltal, etc

Special Attacker
########
name: Special Attacker
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Flash Cannon
move 4: Stealth Rock
ability: Pressure
item: Life Orb / Choice Specs
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA
nature: Modest / Timid

Moves
========
-kill things
-Stealth Rock up, most defogers are OHKO'd by this set.

Set Details
========
-timid sets with speed investment work great with this too

Usage Tips
========
-kill fucking everything
-specs isn't as good this gen, especially with fairies around, and dialga likes changing moves. But specs is still an option since it doesn't have recoil and is more powerful

Team Options
========
-have phazers or good walls as things will aim to set up on your after a draco
-switch-ins to scarf mons like kyogre and Zek since they're gonna aim to kill you after you've been weakened by LO recoil
-mons that can deal with Ho-Oh and Blissey since they can mess with this set hard

Choice Scarf
########
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Flash Cannon
move 4: Thunder / Toxic / Sleep Talk
ability: Pressure
item: Leftovers
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Modest / Timid

Moves
========
-draco meteor is nice powerful stab
-fire blast to roast steels
-flash cannon is reliable STAB that smacks fairy-types
-thunder hits kyogre, arceus-water, ho-oh, yveltal etc harder
-toxic can hit threatening things such as Calm Mind Arceus forms. good for OHSHI momnts when something might sweep you
-sleep talk lets you check darkrai

Set Details
========
-Modest gives you more power, timid lets you outspeed other base 90 scarfers, +1 adamant mega blaziken, and deoxys-a. I put modest first since dialga really wants all the power it can get

Usage Tips
========
-pretty solid scarf mon. while it isn't usually as powerful as say Zekrom or Kyogre, you have a better typing and defensive stats which allow you to check certain things easier
-does loads of damage to extremekiller who can't hit you hard with espeed
-this set can fake being scarfed quite easily
-don't expect to beat stuff like GeoXern, CM Mewtwo-y, etc

Team Options
========
-have another soft check to ekiller like Ground types or Scizor since you can't OHKO it
-this dialga is pretty good at checking most things in the game with the right move so in general you don't need as hard of checks for many things

Other Options
########
-Lum Berry is cool but Dialga really likes Lefties recovery
-Dragon Pulse is like Flash Cannon but is resisted by less. However, if you ran it over Flash Cannon you leave Dialga open to fairy types, and generally you want the power.
-Mixed sets. I didn't see the point with Blissey/Chansey being so meh
-Bulk Up. RestTalk is impossible now since Fairy-types are immune
-Aura Sphere over Fire Blast if you run kyogre as a teammate. Heatran is pretty rare though and you really want to hit Scizor hard.

Checks & Counters
########
Main categories: Chansey/Blissey, Attacking Ground Types, Special Defensive Fire-types, calm mind arceus forms, gengar, blaziken, jirachi with rain up

 

[MMII]

spdef is max hp, max spdef draco, coverage, toxic, sr

i think specs should be separated from lo cause play differences. speaking of which, adamant orb can be slashed with the LO set

scarf isn't that good anymore, i would put on bottom set tbh

 

[Manaphy]

spdef is max hp, max spdef draco, coverage, toxic, sr

i think specs should be separated from lo cause play differences. speaking of which, adamant orb can be slashed with the LO set

scarf isn't that good anymore, i would put on bottom set tbh

SpDef set should be in set comments for stealth rock or it's own thing?

Specs... I mean it's pretty similar to LO in the sense that you just kill everything. I'm gonna struggle to say anything new if the only difference is "oh you can't switch attacks and are stronger"

Agreeing with the scarf thing

 

[MMII]

No, sorry, I meant that should be the main spread and moveset.

LO can use SR, which is probably one of the biggest appeals to it over specs.

 

[Manaphy]

No, sorry, I meant that should be the main spread and moveset.

LO can use SR, which is probably one of the biggest appeals to it over specs.

Well I think the spread I have now is viable so where should that go?

 

[MMII]

You can mention what certain points of spatk investment lets you accomplish in the set details section.

 

[Manaphy]

alright what nature does that sdef set run?

I'll be able to edit this later

 

[MMII]

Calm

 

[Fireburn]

I'd split Specs and LO since LO (or Adamant Orb even) can run something like SR/DM/Thunder/Flash Cannon that has great wallbreaking power and the ability to beat most Defoggers while setting up SR. It has more offensive utility whereas Specs is purely focused towards killing everything.

I dunno if this is worth anything but Hone Claws + Iron Tail can be kind of cute for being able to kill Fairies and pink blobs at once. Hone Claws's acc boost is also nice for Thunder/Fire Blast.

 

[MMII]

Reminds me, test monobulk up with iron head or outrage or soemthing. I know Aldaron used to like it and it's a kinder metagame for that sort of set, (although still fucked by mega gar so not really?)

 

[Manaphy]

Reminds me, test monobulk up with iron head or outrage or soemthing. I know Aldaron used to like it and it's a kinder metagame for that sort of set, (although still fucked by mega gar so not really?)

er MonoBulk Up, with Dragon STAB you lose to fairies which kinda sucks. Not sure how well only Steel-type stab would do but.... eh

I'd split Specs and LO since LO (or Adamant Orb even) can run something like SR/DM/Thunder/Flash Cannon that has great wallbreaking power and the ability to beat most Defoggers while setting up SR. It has more offensive utility whereas Specs is purely focused towards killing everything.

I dunno if this is worth anything but Hone Claws + Iron Tail can be kind of cute for being able to kill Fairies and pink blobs at once. Hone Claws's acc boost is also nice for Thunder/Fire Blast.

Yeah sure. I'll put Hone Claws in OO.

Also I'm not sure if I should slash the set I had originally above in with the special defensive set or the LO set, since they're both kinda similar.

 

[MMII]

yeah you'd lose to fairies but we do have mega gar too so idk if that's too big an issue

 

[Unowninator]

Choice Scarf
########
name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Fire Blast
move 3: Flash Cannon
move 4: Thunder / Toxic / Sleep Talk
ability: Pressure
item: Leftovers
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Modest / Timid

 

[MMII]

Manaphy If you could get the main set fixed up (chat with me on irc, I know exactly what i'm lookign for now) and have the overview, checks counters, and other options sections all out of wip (so bascially everything but the second set for now) by tomorrow that would be really helpful for me. We are going to have the new dex live soon and need at least a place holder skeleton. (oh and if you could jump ahead and format the checks and counters section like you see in the index that would be even better)

 

[Manaphy]

Manaphy If you could get the main set fixed up (chat with me on irc, I know exactly what i'm lookign for now) and have the overview, checks counters, and other options sections all out of wip (so bascially everything but the second set for now) by tomorrow that would be really helpful for me. We are going to have the new dex live soon and need at least a place holder skeleton. (oh and if you could jump ahead and format the checks and counters section like you see in the index that would be even better)

Soz for being late (a lot of hard shit happened to me yesterday) but I'll be on irc later today

 

[Disaster Area]

Stone Edge, is that an option?
[rawrarr showed me a set they'd made which was e-belt stone edge + 3 standard special attacks]
Should probably go OO but could maybe deserve a mention in one of the sets?

 

[Muk]

I feel like Assault Vest and Metal Burst (not necessarily together) are worth a mention in OO lol

 

[Haruno]

I feel like Assault Vest and Metal Burst (not necessarily together) are worth a mention in OO lol

copied and pasted from one of blue j's previous posts in the dialga discussion topic.
"Assault Vest Dialga is far from a solid Xerneas check, and worse it has to run really awkward sets to best check it (inferior moves and inferior EV spreads). It really is not a great Assault Vest user in general. Stealth Rock is one of Dialga's main appeals (it is simply outclassed as an all out attacker) and its power is somewhat disappointing without some sort of boosting item. It really becomes one of those awkward jack of all trades Pokemon which really do not function too well in this metagame - it is not particularly powerful offensively, and defensively it has good bulk and typing but no recovery or support moves to capitalize on this."

The reasons still hold true now. Metal burst seems kinda shitty and situational as hell but it could work I guess......... Unsure if i'd want to put it in OO.

 

[Muk]

Fair enough (re Assault Vest). I've never tried it, so yeah

edit: also forgot to add, adamant orb is definitely worth using on the second set, as was brought up earlier in the thread

 

[Haruno]

Fair enough (re Assault Vest). I've never tried it, so yeah

edit: also forgot to add, adamant orb is definitely worth using on the second set, as was brought up earlier in the thread

Steel/dragon provide incredibly shitty coverage, that stab combination is nowhere near as potent offensively as ghost/dragon or water/dragon so rather than capitalize on a insufficient boost, it's better to either max damage output with specs or use LO for the ability to swap moves.

 

[Muk]

Steel/dragon provide incredibly shitty coverage, that stab combination is nowhere near as potent offensively as ghost/dragon or water/dragon so rather than capitalize on a insufficient boost, it's better to either max damage output with specs or use LO for the ability to swap moves.

Adamant Orb is still worth a mention (not slashed). It can net you a surprise KO by faking Specs, and it's not like you miss the extra power on Fire Blast. You're hitting Scizor/Genesect/Forretress/Ferrothorn/whatever else 4x effectively, and you still 2HKO Metagross and Bronzong (and Skarmory lol). Off the top of my head, the only thing it really makes a difference for is specially defensive Steel Arceus.

 

[Manaphy]

Okay now that SPL is over for me I'm gonna spend some more time on this analysis soon.

 

[MMII]

This is what I had typed up as placeholder for the dex, take from it what you will.

Hide

Overview
########
- Large bulk and excellent defensive typing allows it to easily find turns to attack or setup Stealth Rock
- Easily beats every common Defog user found in Ubers
- Very versatile, can be surpising with different moves or sets
- Vulnerable to the Ground-types found on nearly every team

Defensive
########
name: Defensive
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Stealth Rock
move 3: Toxic
move 4: Fire Blast / Roar
ability: Pressure
item: Leftovers
nature: Calm
evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD


Moves
========

- Draco Meteor high base power helps make up for the lack of investment and let Dialga dent things and KO Giratina-O
- Stealth Rock is a key utility move and the main reason to use this set
- Toxic cripples support Arceus formes preventing them from spamming Defog
- Fire Blast has good coverage with Draco Meteor and roasts Scizor before it can Superpower or Defog
- Roar prevents Dialga from being setup fodder and lets it abuse hazards
- Thunder hurts Kyogre

Set Details
========

- Maximum special bulk lets Dialga come in on support Arceus as many times as possible while serving as a check to offensive Kyogre variants


Usage Tips
========

- Don't be predictable with your leads otherwise you'll find yourself starting games off with your Dialga against your opponent's Ground-type
- Take advantage of the fact Dialga beats Defog users to keep Stealth Rock up throughout the game
- At the same time, watch out for Scizor's Superpower, Earthquake from Giratina-O, and Will-O-Wisp from support Arceus formes so that Dialga stays healthy enough for the things you need it for
- Dialga is a good Choice Scarf Kyogre check and can switch into Choice Specs Surf but don't rely too much on this as you'll often find yourself asking more out of Dialga than it has the HP to do
- Dialga's bulk, typing, and strong Draco Meteor makes it very good at trading with Pokemon one-on-one


Team Options
========

- Dialga reduces the need to run strong Kyogre checks like Palkia, but keep in mind that Dialga will fall to defensive Kyogre and can only beat Choice Kyogre if it doesn't have to switch in often. Avoid using Pokemon that give Kyogre free turns, especially Choice Specs Kyogre.
- Running powerful special attackers, like Deoxys-A or Thundurus, that can punish your opponent for leading with a Ground-type increases the odds of you starting the game in a favorable position.
- Every team appreciates constantly having Stealth Rock up but Dialga's reliability at maintaining the entry hazard can help serve as an indirect check to threats like Ho-Oh and Charizard for teams that are weak to them.


Other Options
########

- Stone Edge can make quick work of a Ho-Oh but Dialga rarely has difficulties in dealing one, especially as it is such a reliable Stealth Rock setter.

- Heal Block can prevent the use of Rest and other recovery moves for your opponent's team for 5 turns but Dialga has better options while switching around will quickly end those 5 turns.

Checks & Counters
########

**Fairy-types**: Dialga can't really do anything to Fairy-types besides crippling them with Toxic or Fire Blast in the case of Klefki. However, Defensive Xerneas and Heal Bell Sylveon aren't even bothered by the use of Toxic while Dialga that opt for Roar become total Spikes fodder for Klefki.
**Ground-types**: Generally, the biggest struggle in dealing with Dialga is killing it, especially while trying to avoid trading blows. Groudon and Landorus-T both have powerful Earthquakes that will OHKO even a completely healthy Dialga if they run an offensive variant. Defensive variants of the Ground-types will still be able to heavily harm Dialga but keep in mind that they fail to OHKO by a large margin, often forcing you to trade your Earthquake for a Draco Meteor when dealing with a healthy Dialga. Short of Excadrill, Ground-types also have a lot of difficulty switching in directly due to Draco Meteor.
**Defensive Kyogre**: Defensive Kyogre, especially with heavy special defense investment, can comfortably sponge most of Dialga's attacks. Rest heals off status and damage while Scald will eventually cripple Dialga with a burn that will eat its HP.
**Fighting-types**: Blaziken and Mega Mewtwo X can both OHKO Dialga with Low Kick or use Bulk Up and Drain Punch to setup on Dialga in the case of Mewtwo. Neither enjoy trying to switch in on Dialga.
**Shadow Tag**: Gengar often use Focus Blast which allows it to trap and eliminate a softened Dialga. Gothitelle has no difficulty in setting up on defensive Dialga with Calm Mind unless it runs Roar. Wobbuffet can transform Dialga without Flash Cannon into a nearly completely free Geomancy for Xerneas thanks to Safegaurd blocking status and Encore locking Dialga out of Roar.

 

[PISTOLERO]

Manaphy not sure at what point of analysis writing stuff like this is mentioned, but i have a minor comment which i believe is worth mentioning:

252+ SpA Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 222-262 (50.3 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I was playing against a friend and i found out the hard way that Scarf Dialga can only check bulky Extremekiller competently if it's already taken heavy damage. If it has Recover (which i will admit is uncommon) you lose. i know that Jolly LO is probably more common this generation, but still:

252+ SpA Dialga Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Arceus: 220-261 (57.7 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

i definitely think this deserves a mention in the scarf section :)

 

[MMII]

I don't think Scarf Dialga is even viable in the first place.