Celebi QC (1/3) QC Rejected (2/3)

[LightningLuxray]

QC Checks: CyclicCompound,
GP Checks:
QC Rejects: Ash Borer, Jukain

Overview
########

• Rain nerf means it has lost its niche as a Rain counter.
• Unfortunate typing, which leaves it with a ton of weaknesses, including a 4x weakness to Bug-type moves.
• Faces competition for a Grass-type from Mega Venusaur and Shaymin. It's best set, NastyPass, also faces competition from Pokemon such as Gorebyss.
• 100 base stats across the board mean it can fill multiple roles.
• Grass typing and Natural Cure allows Celebi to counter common Pokemon, such as Rotom-W.
• Nasty Plot + Baton Pass allows it to power up teammates.

Offensive Baton Pass
###############
Name: Offensive
Move 1: Nasty Plot
Move 2: Baton Pass
Move 3: Psychic
Move 4: Earth Power/Hidden Power Fire/Giga Drain
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SpA/4 SpDef/252 Spe

Moves
======

• Nasty Plot in combination with Baton Pass is one of the best reasons to use offensive Celebi, as it evades pursuit and can pass helpful boosts to a teammate.
• Psychic is Celebi's most useful STAB, as it get the best neutral coverage overall. Celebi also has Baton Pass to evade Pursuit, making Dark-types a non-issue.
• Earth Power allows Celebi to hit Steel-types, such as Heatran.
• Hidden Power Fire hits steel types, and although weaker, it's a good way to hit Pokemon such as Scizor.
• Giga Drain is a secondary STAB which is decent, but doesn't have good coverage with the rest of its moves. If used, make sure it's to hit Pokemon such as Azumaril.
• Recover gives Celebi more longevity, but takes away from its coverage.
• Substitute can be Baton Passed, but it usually isn't worth it.

Set Details
=========

• Leftovers keeps Celebi alive for as long as possible. It also makes Baton Passing much easier.
• Max Speed and Special Attack allows Celebi to hit as hard as possible while also being able to Baton Pass as fast as possible.
• Timid nature is used to further boost Celebi's speed.

Usage Tips
=========

• Make sure Celebi's Nasty Plot's are helpful for the team.
• Baton Pass also functions as great way for Celebi to escape Pursuit users, such as Scizor and Tyranitar.
• Use Celebi as a way to deal with Pokemon such as Rotom-W, as it's one of its best counters.
• Natural Cure makes Celebi a good switch-in to status Pokemon, such as Thundorus-I.

Team Options
===========

• Pokemon who appreciate Nasty Plot boosts, such as Charizard Y, Heatran, the Lati twins, Gengar, Landorus-I, and Keldeo all work well with Celebi.
  
• Pokemon who don't like Rotom-W, such as Mega Pinsir, Talonflame, and (Mega) Scizor all appreciate Celebi's support.
• Pokemon who can absorb U-Turn, such as Lando-T, Heatran, and Aegislash all work well with Celebi.
• Rock-type Pokemon cover a lot of Celebi's weaknesses, making (Mega) Tyranitar a good partner.
• Pokemon such as Manaphy and Azumaril can wear down Celebi's counters. They also appreciate Celebi's ability to absorb Electric- and Grass-type attacks.
• Fire-types, such as Heatran, Charizard, and Talonflame can take Fire- and Bug-type attacks for Celebi, while appreciating Celebi's ability to absorb Water-type attacks.

Other Options
##########

• Pure Offensive set.
• Pure Defensive set.
• Swords Dance/Calm Mind.
• Choice Scarf.

Checks & Counters
#############

• Bug-types/U-Turn users threaten Celebi out.
• Fire-types, such as Charizard Y/X, Talonflame, Heatran, and Volcarona hit Celebi hard. Charizard Y and Talonflame can also avoid Earth Power.
• Flying-types, such as Mega Pinsir, Mandibuzz, Staraptor, and Tornadus all hit Celebi for good damage.
• Bisharp, Aegislash, and Gengar hit Celebi super-effectively, but must watch out for Earth Power and Psychic, respectively.
• Bulky Dragons, such as the Latias and Goodra also deal with Celebi well.

 

[Gehenna]

may want to mention that this thing is an excellent switch-in to twave thundurus, which things like manaphy and azumarill really appreciate. they can also both take on heatran, ttar, etc.

252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Celebi: 128-152 (37.5% - 44.5%) - guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 162-192 (54% - 64%) - guaranteed 2HKO

 

[LightningLuxray]

may want to mention that this thing is an excellent switch-in to twave thundurus, which things like manaphy and azumarill really appreciate. they can also both take on heatran, ttar, etc.

252 SpA Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Celebi: 128-152 (37.5% - 44.5%) - guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Celebi Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus: 162-192 (54% - 64%) - guaranteed 2HKO

Mentioned :)

 

[Ubiquitous]

What about slashing a utility move in the third slot (on the offensive set) for the classic Tinkerbell variant? Thunder Wave and U-turn are good options there to help Celebi to provide a little support or momentum depending on what your team needs. Also, Heal Bell is another great option on the defensive set, maybe you could add a mention in the set comments to avoid a ridiculous number of slashes in that fourth slot.

 

[LightningLuxray]

What about slashing a utility move in the third slot (on the offensive set) for the classic Tinkerbell variant? Thunder Wave and U-turn are good options there to help Celebi to provide a little support or momentum depending on what your team needs. Also, Heal Bell is another great option on the defensive set, maybe you could add a mention in the set comments to avoid a ridiculous number of slashes in that fourth slot.

Yeah, I've used Stealth Rock on the offensive set before, as well as Heal Bell on the defensive set. Celebi just has so many options, it's hard to remember them all xD I'll give U-Turn a slash, and Thunder Wave a mention in the OO. And I'll give Heal Bell the third slash on the fourth slot and move Stealth Rock to the OO. (Since Celebi would really appreciate having something like Perish Song on the defensive set instead of Stealth Rock)

 

[LightningLuxray]

Ok, I think I'm ready for QC checks!

 

[indian]

add lati@S in the checks and counters section and aegislash in team options as it takes care of them very easiely.

 

[CyclicCompound]

I posted this in the last Celebi thread. Keep in mind I'm not QC, but I've used Celebi a lot and I feel this is the best offensive set:

Offensive
########
Name: Offensive
Move 1: Leaf Storm
Move 2: Earth Power / Psychic
Move 3: Hidden Power Rock / Hidden Power Fire
Move 4: Recover
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Life Orb
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SpA/4 SpDef/252 Spe

My reasoning (also from the last Celebi thread):

The way this works is that Leaf Storm / Earth Power / HP Rock gets really great coverage, and Leaf Storm / Psychic / HP Fire also gets really great coverage. Basically, this lets Celebi choose its own counters. The first combination is walled by Skarmory and doesn't do much to wear down Scizor or Ferrothorn (particularly Mega Scizor, and ESPECIALLY any Scizor with Roost). The second combination is walled by Heatran, lets Dragonite set up, and doesn't wear down Charizard X/Y or Talonflame as efficiently, but it hits everything that the first combination cannot, and vice versa. Both are really great move combos, though.

It's a choose-your-own-counters kind of thing.

Also, I'd strongly recommend you go with only Timid on the offensive set. Speed tying Mega Charizard X/Y is too good to pass up when you have super effective coverage against them.

EDIT: No mention of Natural Cure in the overview? Natural Cure is what makes Celebi arguably the best Rotom-W counter in the game, not to mention that it sets it apart from a slew of other defensive Pokemon.

 

[LightningLuxray]

I posted this in the last Celebi thread. Keep in mind I'm not QC, but I've used Celebi a lot and I feel this is the best offensive set:

Offensive
########
Name: Offensive
Move 1: Leaf Storm
Move 2: Earth Power / Psychic
Move 3: Hidden Power Rock / Hidden Power Fire
Move 4: Recover
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Life Orb
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SpA/4 SpDef/252 Spe

My reasoning (also from the last Celebi thread):

It's a choose-your-own-counters kind of thing.

Also, I'd strongly recommend you go with only Timid on the offensive set. Speed tying Mega Charizard X/Y is too good to pass up when you have super effective coverage against them.

EDIT: No mention of Natural Cure in the overview? Natural Cure is what makes Celebi arguably the best Rotom-W counter in the game, not to mention that it sets it apart from a slew of other defensive Pokemon.

Hmm, the problem with this set is, the Hidden Power nerf has made it so that a super effective Hidden Power is actually doing less than a STAB Psychic.

60 * 2 = 120
90 * 1.5 = 135


So, Psychic is actually doing more than Hidden Power Rock to Pokemon such as Dragonite. I will make mention on Hidden Power Fire, however, as I can see how it could be helpful against Scizor/Ferrothorn/Skarmory. However, outside of those Pokemon, I feel as though the combination of Leaf Storm/Psychic/Earth Power gets the best overall coverage.

Also, I can see how Timid is useful, though at most, you're only getting a speed tie out of it, which is a 50/50 chance. A Modest nature usually works best if your team already has 100 Speed threats covered, and it also gives you more power, so I'm still making mention of that. I will, however, put Timid in front of Modest.

Also, I'll definitely be sure to make mention of Natural Cure.

 

[LightningLuxray]

add lati@S in the checks and counters section and aegislash in team options as it takes care of them very easiely.

Already mentioned Aegislash in the offensive set, just need to add it to the defensive set.

I'll also be sure to add Lati@s and Goodra, too.

Edit: Forgot to mention that the Lati twins only counter offensive Celebi. Specially Defensive Celebi doesn't have any trouble beating them 1v1. (Unless it's Latios with Specs Ice Beam, which is rare.)

 

[CyclicCompound]

Hmm, the problem with this set is, the Hidden Power nerf has made it so that a super effective Hidden Power is actually doing less than a STAB Psychic.

60 * 2 = 120
90 * 1.5 = 135


So, Psychic is actually doing more than Hidden Power Rock to Pokemon such as Dragonite. I will make mention on Hidden Power Fire, however, as I can see how it could be helpful against Scizor/Ferrothorn/Skarmory. However, outside of those Pokemon, I feel as though the combination of Leaf Storm/Psychic/Earth Power gets the best overall coverage.

Hidden Power Rock targets mainly Mega Charizard Y and Talonflame, both of which are 4x weak, not 2x. Both are arguably more common than Dragonite, and though Celebi cannot switch in to either Pokemon, Celebi is a terrific lure for both. I would strongly suggest you try out the set, it's more rewarding than you think.

Also, just fyi, it was determined in the last Celebi thread that Timid should be the only slash for the nature. Again, passing up the speed tie is simply unacceptable when it carries so much weight in a battle.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Hidden Power Rock targets mainly Mega Charizard Y and Talonflame, both of which are 4x weak, not 2x. Both are arguably more common than Dragonite, and though Celebi cannot switch in to either Pokemon, Celebi is a terrific lure for both. I would strongly suggest you try out the set, it's more rewarding than you think.

Also, just fyi, it was determined in the last Celebi thread that Timid should be the only slash for the nature. Again, passing up the speed tie is simply unacceptable when it carries so much weight in a battle.

Ok, yeah, I think you're right on the offensive Celebi set. While Psychic might be doing more, Hidden Power Rock is doing close enough to that amount of damage anyways. Plus, the Talonflame/Charizard Y lure seems very cool/effective.

After a lot of thinking, I think your right about Timid. While I would try to argue Modest, I don't really feel there are enough OHKO's/2HKO's that Celebi can't net without Modest for it to deserve a slash. Speed ties can be important, too.

 

[FalSeraph]

So how are you forcing a speed-tie with Charizard Y? I can't seem to find an IV spread that gives Hidden Power Rock while having 31 speed IV's.

 

[LightningLuxray]

So how are you forcing a speed-tie with Charizard Y? I can't seem to find an IV spread that gives Hidden Power Rock while having 31 speed IV's.

Ahh, great catch! Hidden Power Rock gives you - 1 Speed IV, so you'll always lose to Charizard Y 1v1. I still like the lure of the set, though, so I think I'm going to keep the moves the same. I will, however, bring back Modest as the main slash, as the speed ties were the main reason for Timid to be the only nature, really.

EDIT: I ended up taking out Timid completely, as after looking at the OU threats, there's really nothing Celebi outspeeds with Timid it that it doesn't with Modest. It outspeeds... Lucario, the rare max speed Landorus-T/Gliscor, Hydre, and Haxorus. The latter two Celebi doesn't really want to be staying in on, and Landorus-T commonly carries U-Turn, meaning Celebi doesn't really want to switch into it, anyways.

EDIT 2: Thanks to Rapunzel, I added Ancient Power as Celebi's Rock move of choice. This way, Celebi can still run a Rock-type coverage move while also still achieving Speed ties. Modest will still be the second slash, however, as Hidden Power Fire's lowered Speed IV means Celebi can't achieve these speed ties.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Bumping because it's been a week and there hasn't been any activity.

 

[Ash Borer]

Ok, so this needs updating! After some QC deliberation changes are as such

1) Drop Defensive Celebi. It has a very bad match up to a lot of top rank threats, and although it has Baton PAss and Thunder Wave to not be total pursuit bait or set up bait it is still unable to contribute all that much to walling. The entire S-rank beats it quite easily, Thundurus can have a bad set against Celebi however Hp flying, Knock Off, and U-turn are not exactly ueless moves onit while Celebi needs Psychic to do anything back. A lot of A rank easily beat it / set up on it like mega Scizor, Mega Mawile, Talonflame, Kyurem-B, etc. Even pokes that it should be ok against like Azumarill or Excadrill have tools to beat it pretty badly, strong Iron Heads and Knock Offs really hurt Celebi, and its main problem is that its strapped for moves that do significant dmaage back! Remember, it basically needs psychic so Thundurus doesnt laugh at it. All in all, youre really just better of using Venusaur as your defensive grass type

The only set I would remotely consider is Baton PAss / Thunder WAve / REcover / Psychic or Giga Drain with enough speed to baton pass out of adamant Bisharp but it really doesnt do that much outside get Thundurus if it has a bad match up, Azumarill if you run Giga Drain and it lacks Knock Off, Keldeo, Gyarados is it lacks bite, and.. maybe you can check Terrakion? Its bad sry :(


2) Merge OFfensive and Baton Pass. Offensive is basically outclassed by Shaymin, who has Seed Flare which is much better than Leaf Storm, is not quad weak to u-turn, has no ghost or dark weakness, and only misses out on a fight resist and psychic STAB which makes it better. However, it does have access to Nasty Plot and Baton Pass whic is in the analysis right now so combining them makes the most sense.


Name: Offensive
Move 1: Nasty Plot
Move 2: Baton Pass
Move 3: Psychic
Move 4: Earth Power / Hidden Power Fire / Giga Drain
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 SpD

- Nasty plot + BP is one of the best reasons to use offensive Celebi really, it evades pursuit, and it prevents a lot of common pokes from rly ruining its day
- Psychic is your most useful STAB as it gets hte best neutral coverage, and you can BP out of Dark types reliably
- Earth Power hits steel types
- Hidden ower Fire hits steel types although weaker, it prevents Scizor from working you over (not a huge deal because you can just BPi nto someting that can take a uturn/knock off ike keldeo) and it also prevents Skarm from just whirlwinding you away for free.
- Giga drain is a secondary STAB which is Ok but its pretty weak. use it if you want to use Celebi to also check some grass weak pokemon like Azumarill if it has to.
- Lefties because you need the longevity provided and it makes it easier to make passes
- Timid because Celebi is pretty weak anyways and the speed helps you pass out of stuff like Adamant Chzarizard X or something if it coems in as you Boost.
- Recover can fit over a seocnd attack if you want celebi to be a bit more persistent though youll be starved for turns trying to recove,r then boost, then pass
- Sub can again be used over a second attack, sub passing is kewl, but losing coverage to shit like Heatran or Skarm makes it hard to do work

 

[LightningLuxray]

Ok, so this needs updating! After some QC deliberation changes are as such

1) Drop Defensive Celebi. It has a very bad match up to a lot of top rank threats, and although it has Baton PAss and Thunder Wave to not be total pursuit bait or set up bait it is still unable to contribute all that much to walling. The entire S-rank beats it quite easily, Thundurus can have a bad set against Celebi however Hp flying, Knock Off, and U-turn are not exactly ueless moves onit while Celebi needs Psychic to do anything back. A lot of A rank easily beat it / set up on it like mega Scizor, Mega Mawile, Talonflame, Kyurem-B, etc. Even pokes that it should be ok against like Azumarill or Excadrill have tools to beat it pretty badly, strong Iron Heads and Knock Offs really hurt Celebi, and its main problem is that its strapped for moves that do significant dmaage back! Remember, it basically needs psychic so Thundurus doesnt laugh at it. All in all, youre really just better of using Venusaur as your defensive grass type

2) Merge OFfensive and Baton Pass. Offensive is basically outclassed by Shaymin, who has Seed Flare which is much better than Leaf Storm, is not quad weak to u-turn, has no ghost or dark weakness, and only misses out on a fight resist and psychic STAB which makes it better. However, it does have access to Nasty Plot and Baton Pass whic is in the analysis right now so combining them makes the most sense.


Name: Offensive
Move 1: Nasty Plot
Move 2: Baton Pass
Move 3: Psychic
Move 4: Earth Power / Hidden Power Fire / Giga Drain
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 SpD

- Nasty plot + BP is one of the best reasons to use offensive Celebi really, it evades pursuit, and it prevents a lot of common pokes from rly ruining its day
- Psychic is your most useful STAB as it gets hte best neutral coverage, and you can BP out of Dark types reliably
- Earth Power hits steel types
- Hidden ower Fire hits steel types although weaker, it prevents Scizor from working you over (not a huge deal because you can just BPi nto someting that can take a uturn/knock off ike keldeo) and it also prevents Skarm from just whirlwinding you away for free.
- Giga drain is a secondary STAB which is Ok but its pretty weak. use it if you want to use Celebi to also check some grass weak pokemon like Azumarill if it has to.
- Lefties because you need the longevity provided and it makes it easier to make passes
- Timid because Celebi is pretty weak anyways and the speed helps you pass out of stuff like Adamant Chzarizard X or something if it coems in as you Boost.
- Recover can fit over a seocnd attack if you want celebi to be a bit more persistent though youll be starved for turns trying to recove,r then boost, then pass
- Sub can again be used over a second attack, sub passing is kewl, but losing coverage to shit like Heatran or Skarm makes it hard to do work

I'll make these ASAP, may take a little time to re-write everything up, though.

 

[Ash Borer]

That's Fine. Swords Dance pass was dropped on account of physical celebi have nothing for coverage outside of STAB and Sucker Punch. Mention some useful teammates for baton pass that would appreciate the passes. Keldeo comes to mind right away as it easily switches into Dark Types like Bisharp that Celebi has a bad time against.

 

[LightningLuxray]

That's Fine. Swords Dance pass was dropped on account of physical celebi have nothing for coverage outside of STAB and Sucker Punch. Mention some useful teammates for baton pass that would appreciate the passes. Keldeo comes to mind right away as it easily switches into Dark Types like Bisharp that Celebi has a bad time against.

Will do! :)

EDIT: That took much less time than I expected, I'm now ready for QC checks again!

 

[CyclicCompound]

Mention that it faces competition from other passers of boosts (namely Gorebyss).

Other than that, this looks fine.

QC 1/4

 

[LightningLuxray]

Mention that it faces competition from other passers of boosts (namely Gorebyss).

Other than that, this looks fine.

QC 1/4

Cool, thanks! :)

 

[Ash Borer]

Amidst growing popularity of Breloom and Keldeo, who have frankly seen a ridiculous spike in usage along with the fact that Gyarados running Bite is basically unheard of, and its usage has increased I feel like defensive Celebi is decently viable?

Defensive
########
Name: Defensive
Move 1: Thunder Wave
Move 2: Baton Pass
Move 3: Psychic
Move 4: Recover
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Calm
EVs: 252 HP / 236 Sdef / 20 Spe

can counter keld/breloom but isnt pursuit trapped thx to baton pass, and it can deal with the right moveset of some pokes like Thundy/Lando but only the right moveset. Thunder Wave is really what makes this set usable as basically any counter or check to Celebi, shit that might want to switch in like Pinsir, Aegislash, Charizard all despise Paralysis

The offensive set we came up with, really isn't that effective i've found.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Amidst growing popularity of Breloom and Keldeo, who have frankly seen a ridiculous spike in usage along with the fact that Gyarados running Bite is basically unheard of, and its usage has increased I feel like defensive Celebi is decently viable?

Defensive
###############
Name: Defensive
Move 1: Thunder Wave
Move 2: Baton Pass
Move 3: Psychic
Move 4: Recover
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Leftovers
Nature: Calm
EVs: 252 HP / 236 Sdef / 20 Spe

can counter keld/breloom but isnt pursuit trapped thx to baton pass, and it can deal with the right moveset of some pokes like Thundy/Lando but only the right moveset. Thunder Wave is really what makes this set usable as basically any counter or check to Celebi, shit that might want to switch in like Pinsir, Aegislash, Charizard all despise Paralysis

The offensive set we came up with, really isn't that effective i've found.

Ehh I found both NastyPass and Defensive to be utter shit and not worth the time. IMO there is literally no reason to use Defensive Celebi > Mega Venusaur.

If you ask me, we should just bring the standard offensive set back. Considering Shaymin's been rejected, it's basically the best offensive Grass-type in the tier. It also has reliable recovery, Earth Power, and the fact that it doesn't take up a Mega slot over Mega Venusaur. Here's the set I'd like to see, from CyclicCompound

Offensive
########
Name: Offensive
Move 1: Leaf Storm
Move 2: Earth Power / Psychic
Move 3: Ancient Power / Hidden Power Fire
Move 4: Recover
Ability: Natural Cure
Item: Life Orb
Nature: Timid / Modest
EVs: 252 SpA/4 SpDef/252 Spe

I'm not going to explain the set because it should be fairly obvious. Modest gets a slash because with HP Fire's lowered Speed IV, Timid is literally useless.

 

[Muk]

Timid is literally useless.

yet it's on the set and slashed first lol

 

[Ash Borer]

idk, Shaymin seemed better than that other than being a bit better against keldeo because Seed Flare >> Leaf Storm

Defensive celebi is OK because it doesnt take up a mega slot and it can t-wave shit