Carnivine (Update)

[Flashrider57]

Changes from on-site analysis:
- Made Offensive set
- Moved Swords Dance to OC
- Deleted SubSeed set
- Moved Double Powder to OC.
- Modernized update
QC Approvals (2/2): (Bluewind) (uragg)
QC Rejections (0/2):
CURRENTLY TYPING UP WRITE-UP
---------------------------------------------------

http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/carnivine

[Overview]
- Oddball of Grass-types, with Levitate, poor offensive movepool, and poor defensive & Speed stats
- Almost completely outclassed by other Grass-types
- Possesses great base attacking stats, as well as a small but usable support movepool


[SET]
name: Offensive
move 1: Swords Dance / Substitute
move 2: Power Whip
move 3: Return
move 4: Sleep Powder / Synthesis
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Why this set deserves to be on-site:
- Makes good use of Carnivine's great base Attack stat
- Levitate makes Carnivine immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes
- Swords Dance boosts Carnivine's Attack to great levels

Additional Comments:
- Power Whip is Carnivine's main attacking move, due to high base power, STAB, and Carnivine's base Attack stat
- Return is a powerful attacking move
- This set can be used on a Trick Room team with a Relaxed Nature instead of Adamant. However, using Sleep Powder and Swords Dance after switching in only gives you one turn of Trick Room, so this is discouraged
- Substitute can be used over Swords Dance to give yourself wiggle room, but it is best used with Leftovers so it doesn't die as fast. Also, with Substitute you lose a lot of power
- Stun Spore can be used in the last spot to paralyze many switch-ins, allowing Carnivine or other Pokemon to set up on the crippled opponents

Teammates & Counters:
- Omastar takes on many of Carnivine's counters and sets up Stealth Rock, which discourages Carnivine's counters from switching in
- Rhyperior can defeat many of Carnivine's counters and can set up on the switch, while also luring in Grass-, Water-, and Ground-type moves for Carnivine to switch into
- Fire-types, such as Arcanine, Moltres, and Houndoom, defeat Carnivine with ease
- Scyther absolutely destroys this set
- Swellow also demolishes Carnivine
- Registeel completely walls Carnivine


Team Options:
- Omastar deals with many of Carnivine's counters, as well as setting up Stealth Rock to discourage switch-ins
- Arcanine takes on Fire-types well, defeats many of Carnivine's counters, and lures in Water- and Ground-type moves
- Rhyperior deals with opposing Bug-, Fire-, and Flying-types, while also luring in Water- and Grass-type moves for Carnivine to switch into
- Other teammates that set up Stealth Rock
- Slowking has great synergy with Carnivine, and can set up Trick Room, which makes up for Carnivine's low Speed

Optional Changes:
- Access to Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, and Knock Off give Carnivine the option of running a support set
- Leech Seed
- Growth boosts Carnivine's Special Attack, but Carnivine's low Speed stat and bad special movepool makes it harder to sweep
- Other Physical move worth using is Crunch
- Stockpile can help boost Carnivine's bulk
- Gastro Acid and Worry Seed ruin opponents that rely on their Abilities

Counters:
- Fire-types, such as Moltres, Arcanine, Houndoom, and Blaziken
- Flying-types, like Swellow, Scyther, and (again) Moltres
- Bulky Grass-types like Venusaur, Tangrowth, and Leafeon can take Carnivine's attacks easily and are immune to Leech Seed
- Registeel resists Power Whip and Return, but it does not appreciate Sleep Powder

 

[YaM]

Why isn't Sleep Powder on the set? It's too useful disabling a counter as well as for team support and it's not likely you're running another Sleep move. I would shift Leech Seed and Synthesis to OC...

Also Registeel should be mentioned as a counter.

 

[Nexus]

Wring Out is not a physical attack, it's a special move. Physically Defensive grass-types like Leafeon, Tangrowth, and Torterra should be noted since they are immune to leech seed, or at least Leafeon since it can 2HKO Carnivine easily with X-Scissor or Aerial Ace. Also, agree with Yam on Sleep Powder finding a spot on the set instead of OC.

 

[Flashrider57]

Added in the suggestions.

 

[Flashrider57]

Bump...

 

[Darkamber8828]

- Fire-types, such as Arcanine, Moltres, and Houndoom, defeat Carnivine with ease
- Scyther absolutely destroys this set
- Swellow also demolishes Carnivine

Those things are all Stealth Rock weak. You should probably mention SR in Team Options/AC.

 

[Flashrider57]

I kinda implied Stealth Rock with Omastar, but I made sure that Stealth Rock is mentioned.

 

[Flashrider57]

Bump

 

[Oglemi]

The only other thing I can think of to add is maybe a mention of Trick Room, as Rhyperior already makes a natural candidate for a sweeping partner, and Slowking has good synergy with Carnivine. I really can't think of anything else to add, good job with this.

 

[Flashrider57]

Added in those comments! Thanks for your opinion, Oglemi!

 

[Bluewind]

Ok, I've taken a while to post in this guy's thread because I wasn't really sure of what to do, but these were some thoughts of mine. I really doubt the offensive prowess of a set that can't even outspeed base 50 Pokemon and that loses at least 35% HP + hazards damage just to attack once (and being Registeel, Venusaur and Arcanine outrageously common, that isn't very good). Most Pokémon that do a Sub+LO strategy are so outrageously powerful, fast and frail that they literally don't give half a fuck about their HP (mostly), but Carnivine is slow, somewhat bulky and has a decent-at-best Attack. Even though Venusaur and Leafeon outclass him at doing it, I think this should be the main set:

name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Power Whip
move 3: Return
move 4: Sleep Powder / Synthesis
item: Life Orb / Leftovers
nature: Jolly
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Choose whether you'll be outclassed by Leafeon or Venusaur and good luck. Sleep Powder is the primary option as Carnivine does have some qualities that set him apart from SD Venu, like a considerably higher Attack, pure grass typing and Levitate; while Leafeon just really outclasses it (barring Levitate and like 10 more SpD). Jolly gives you enough Speed to beat Milotic, Modest Exeggutor and Omastar, and other stuff that hover around that mark.

 

[Oglemi]

While I see what you mean Bluewind, I have to disagree with an SD set. Even at Max Speed, Carnivine is still too slow. Carnivine may find an opportunity to SD on something like, idk, CB Rhyperior locked in Earthquake?, and then what? Shit like Swellow, Alakazam, Manectric, Houndoom, etc., all come in and OHKO Carnivine before anything is accomplished.

Carnivine I think needs Substitute in order to ensure it gets at least one hit off. I do agree, however, with Max Speed to allow it to outspeed and Sub on stuff and protect it from status.

I think the set should be what Flashrider has, but with max Speed instead of Max HP.

Just my opinion though.

 

[Bluewind]

Well, all of the Pokemon you mentioned do the exact same thing to both SD Leafeon and Venusaur; and that never really made them unviable. Carnivine can scare out Milotic, Torterra, Rhyperior, Blastoise, Omastar, Slowking (and Slowbro, but he is a boss and doesn't really give a fuck), CB Azumarill locked in Aqua Jet and other stuff along that line. Added to that, it can just come on something slower, sleep the switch-in and just SD as they switch out (unless it's something like RestTalk Weezing). Yes, it's still rather slow, but it can actually achieve something; and doesn't have any screaming disadvantage that other Grass-type SDers don't.

 

[Oglemi]

Fair enough.

 

[Bluewind]

This reminded me:

Make an AC note of how the same set with a Brave nature and 0 Speed IVs (and EVs) can be used under Trick Room, but spreak of it as discouraged, as if you do sleep something and then SD, you'll only have a turn left (unless they KO the Trick Roomer on the same turn as it sets up, which leaves 2 free turns). Outside of that I don't have much to add.

 

[Flashrider57]

I switched Bluewind's set with my original one, but added Substitute as a slash with Swords Dance if one wants a little wiggle room. I'm not putting the stamp up yet, because I wanted to make sure that it was okay with him, so I sent him a VM. Other QC input is wanted, too.

 

[Bluewind]

Uhh, I don't have problems with Substitute there, but I really think it's better left for AC. Anyways, just mention that if you're using Substitute you'd better use Leftovers to stay around a bit longer and that you won't be sweeping much and it should be ok to leave the slash there.

 

[Flashrider57]

Made your suggestions, Bluewind, and applied your stamp. One more!

 

[Flashrider57]

Bump...

 

[Flashrider57]

'Nuther bump...

 

[Flashrider57]

Triple bump...I contacted some QC members about Carnivine, but if anyone else wants to provide feedback, feel free!

 

[shrang]

I'm wondering if Stun Spore should get a mention or slash next to Sleep Powder and Synthesis, since by spreading paralysis, it is possible to "bypass" Carnivine's horrible Speed and attempt a sweep later when you've paralysed everything. While Stun Spore's accuracy is shitty, unlike Thunder Wave, nothing is immune to it apart from Hitmonlee and Persian. It could be played just like ParaDancer Groudon, paralyse everything in sight, SD up and attempt to sweep.

 

[Flashrider57]

I'll add it in. Thanks, shrang! That actually helps quite a bit!

 

[Bluewind]

Well, I can't see it paralyzing much more than Registeel... At least ParaDance Groudon baits Pokemon that he can KO or that don't last very long (Latias, Kyogre, other Groudon, Ludicolo), while Carnivine is just really easy to wall. It could be mentioned on AC for support reasons, but not to sweep by itself.

Edit: Uhh, feel free to say if you disagree, it sounds like your mourning over my decision ._.

 

[Flashrider57]

You're right, Bluewind...made your changes...