CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 7a - Ability Discussion

[Objection]

For Hit me, the reason I said +25% health is that, with the way the stat spreads are looking, any increase in any stat or, as with Guts and status, damage output would almost certainly make CAP9 broken unless we nerf its movepool, which I do not want to do. If anyone else can suggest another effect that would be useful but not gamebreaking, please do.

The problem with Guts and Poison heal is that they can be abused without relying on the opponent doing something to CAP9. These abilities wouldn't really be doing anything to stop the secondary, as is proven by Breloom and occasionally Machamp and Heracross.

I like this idea quite a bit, but when you are targeted by said attack do the effects still take place? or do you prevent the attack and gain HP?

This depends on whether I change the benefit or not. Right now, I'm thinking the move's effects should be cancelled but then I'd add Trick and Switcheroo to the list of moves that don't activate the ability.

 

[ferron]

the more i think about it, the more i dislike marvel scale. at first it seemed like a good status absorbing move. after looking at where the stats are headed, all i can see is a bulky rest-talker, which in no way will fulfill its purpose.

honestly, i don't see the need for so many custom abilities to be submitted, when we already know that there are abilities that help prevent secondary effects. can't we just stick with what we have rather than trying to rationalize new abilities (especially when the majority of them are half-assed)?

 

[Objection]

The problem is, the existing abilities are either insufficient or, on CAP9, overpowered. We need an ability that will make CAP9 benefit from being hit by a secondary move but we also need to make CAP9 beatable once it has received that benefit and right now, with the way the stat spread submissions are looking, the two conditions are mutually exclusive unless we create an ability.

We have established that simply being immune to all secondary effects is not good enough. We have established that we want CAP9 to have high stats, particularly it seems in one defensive stat (including HP), attack and speed, so surely an ability that boosts attack would be broken while boosting special attack or speed would be rather pointless. You have implied that boosting defensive stats would not be sufficient as far as concept fulfilment goes. Now name one ability that makes CAP9 benefit from being hit by a secondary effect move in a way other than boosting stats or move power. If I recall correctly, no such ability exists. That is why we have to invent one.

I didn't really want us to have to invent a new ability either but that's the way it has to be.

 

[ferron]

you want 1 ability that it can benefit from without stat-boosting? how about synchronize? it already exists and bounces status back at the user, thus giving people the status use punishment they wanted.

also, i don't understand this need to punish status use, as opposed to just putting it to a stop by neutralizing their effects. we already know that our metagame is pretty well entrenched into status, and one poke won't change that, so i see the ability to be a status absorber being much more important. if instead we are making this a status absorber, then why not just give it natural cure or shed skin?

 

[zarator]

you want 1 ability that it can benefit from without stat-boosting? how about synchronize? it already exists and bounces status back at the user, thus giving people the status use punishment they wanted.

also, i don't understand this need to punish status use, as opposed to just putting it to a stop by neutralizing their effects. we already know that our metagame is pretty well entrenched into status, and one poke won't change that, so i see the ability to be a status absorber being much more important. if instead we are making this a status absorber, then why not just give it natural cure or shed skin?

Because, unless the status absorber can set up something like Dragon Dance or Swords Dance, the status user has nothing to lose to use the status move. So, the presence of CAP9 will hardly discourage the use of these moves in general. On the contrary, if CAP9 had an ability like Guts, the opponent would be a lot more wary of a possible switch in and, more often than not, he will not take the risk.

Let's make an example. Say you have a Pokémon named X. And let's assume that X is walled by Blissey. Now, I know Blissey is a fat pink bitch and all, but chances are you have at least a safe switch in for her. In other words, you have little to risk if you allow Blissey to switch in unscathed.
Now, let's assume instead that X is setup fodder for DD Gyarados if it chooses the wrong move (for example, an Earthquake Choice Band user). Of course, you can handle a +1/+1 Gyarados generally (not always, but it is still possible). However, he could critically hit your counter, and/or make it flinch. He could predict your scarfed check and Waterfall it instead. Although there are some "safe answers" (like Vaporeon, for example), more often than not giving a free turn of set up to Gyarados is not exactly riskless.

To wrap this up, if we want simply to have CAP9 being unaffected by secondary moves, you may as well go with something like Natural Cure. But, if you want to discourage the use of secondary moves altogether with the mere presence of CAP9 on your team (which is what, I think, the concept was about), you need to threaten some kind of aftermath.

"If you use that move, I'm gonna come in for free and wall the hell out of you". this is not scarying anyone.

"If you use that move, I'm gonna come in for free and kick your team in the ass". THIS is what will make people thinking twice. This is what we want IMO.

 

[TheGreatestT]

Personally, I think its foolish for something (CAP 9) to be able to block EVERY SECONDARY. Shouldn't we be more focused on a select few? This way we can give it 2 abilities (that already exists) and let the trainer choose which one they need more for their team, rather than just creating a Pokemon anyone can throw onto their team to "stop the secondary". I know that it is the goal after all, but its impossible to stop everything without making it totally broken. (Especially with the stat spreads I've been seeing.)

 

[ferron]

Objection and i were already having a similar discussion over PM, i'll post it here. (with Objection's permission, of course)

also, i don't understand this need to punish status use, as opposed to just putting it to a stop by neutralizing their effects.

How will simply absorbing status deter people from relying on secondary effects, which is the whole point of the concept?[/QUOTE]

the actual concept stated that it should stop secondary effects, not stop them from being done. by basically neutralizing a status move, we will have stopped its effect. though, honestly, heal bell would possibly be better, but i doubt it would make it through the movement discussion.

I think if people wanted that, they would have voted for the Status Counter concept instead.

the status counter is much more like what they are doing now, with trying to punish status or benefit from it. they aren't stopping it at all, just trying to get an advantage from it.

So are you saying that once CAP9 dies, you want to allow the opponent to spam Thunder Wave, Toxic, Will-o-Wisp, Leech Seed, Trick, Taunt, etc?

no, but nothing else proposed does anything better. you think that guts will stop the opponent once CaP9 is dead? how about poison heal? none of it will, but at least with an absorber, you can do it multiple times.

Which incidentally is where my custom ability comes in. Gaining 25% of your health by being hit by Toxic or Will-o-Wisp or whatever is absorbing the status move, is it not?

except it is over powered. think of how many pokes get water absorb, volt absorb, dry skin, etc.
very few, because an ability that gives a type immunity is very powerful, and all the pokes that have them have BSTs that max at 525. have you seen anything near that low? how about the wide variety of pokes that use status moves? toxic can be put on every poke, tons learn T-wave, etc.
so what is your plan, to outright let this tank anything? hell, it would be viable in ubers just because of that ability.

Here's what I am thinking:

The concept "stop the secondary" and your idea of a status absorber suggest that using secondary effect moves against CAP9 should be useless.
This means we are discouraging the use of secondary effects.
Therefore, we are encouraging the use of direct damage.
CAP9 has five weaknesses and its defences, though good, are not too good. This further encourages the use of direct damage.
Therefore, I put it to you that any ability that does fulfil the concept will by your definition be overpowered.

Synchronise does not count because it does not bounce back sleep and the users of Toxic and Will-o-Wisp often do not mind being hit by Toxic or Will-o-Wisp, whether it be due to immunity to said moves, the ability to rid itself of the status or, in the case of Rotom-A using Will-o-Wisp, the effect being negligible.

except that you can also use your move on the switch for free health AND it has the same problem of earlier to just allow for the moves to be used after it is dead.

What other benefit do you suggest then? If +25% health is broken, then +1 in any stat will also be broken and increased damage output like what Guts gives will also be broken.

as for synchronize not counting, the only types immune to toxic are steel and poison. we know that poison sucks and no one uses it, and there are only 7 steel types in OU and none of them really use toxic (some variants on heatran and thats it), so the chances of that not being reflexed back are low.
WoW isn't popular enough in our metagame to be worrying so much about.
as for sleep, the only pokes i can think of that use it are gengar, sneargle, roserade and breloom. the first and third this poke should kill, the second and fourth will cause problems.
that means only 3 pokes cause problems for synchronize.

What about Blissey, Celebi, Starmie and Rotom-A? The first three won't mind any status they dish out because of Natural Cure (and Blissey and Celebi even get Heal Bell) and Rotom-A doesn't care a jot about being burned. Bouncing back status won't deter people from using status.

So, first of all, do you actually believe we should discourage the use of status moves?

no, because there is just no way a single poke can discourage such a wide number of moves and once that poke is dead, you have nothing.
i prefer the idea of limiting through absorbing or healing them, as that can help the whole team much more.

 

[Solstice]

Because, unless the status absorber can set up something like Dragon Dance or Swords Dance, the status user has nothing to lose to use the status move. So, the presence of CAP9 will hardly discourage the use of these moves in general. On the contrary, if CAP9 had an ability like Guts, the opponent would be a lot more wary of a possible switch in and, more often than not, he will not take the risk.

Let's make an example. Say you have a Pokémon named X. And let's assume that X is walled by Blissey. Now, I know Blissey is a fat pink bitch and all, but chances are you have at least a safe switch in for her. In other words, you have little to risk if you allow Blissey to switch in unscathed.
Now, let's assume instead that X is setup fodder for DD Gyarados if it chooses the wrong move (for example, an Earthquake Choice Band user). Of course, you can handle a +1/+1 Gyarados generally (not always, but it is still possible). However, he could critically hit your counter, and/or make it flinch. He could predict your scarfed check and Waterfall it instead. Although there are some "safe answers" (like Vaporeon, for example), more often than not giving a free turn of set up to Gyarados is not exactly riskless.

To wrap this up, if we want simply to have CAP9 being unaffected by secondary moves, you may as well go with something like Natural Cure. But, if you want to discourage the use of secondary moves altogether with the mere presence of CAP9 on your team (which is what, I think, the concept was about), you need to threaten some kind of aftermath.

"If you use that move, I'm gonna come in for free and wall the hell out of you". this is not scarying anyone.

"If you use that move, I'm gonna come in for free and kick your team in the ass". THIS is what will make people thinking twice. This is what we want IMO.

I completely agree with zarator, we need an ability that that threatens to kill, not to wall. The direction this concept has been heading is stopping the secondary USER on the opponents team, not the secondary in general. That's why I support Guts. If this Pokemon has an ability that allows it to take status, but not remove the Pokemon that used the status on it in the first place, it's not fulfilling its role. If it has Shed Skin, yes, the status will be removed, but the opponents Pokemon that uses the status can still affect your other Pokemon if CaP9 gets removed from play. But with Guts, CaP9 can Pursuit the stupid Blissey or Celebi into the ground.

People who are complaing about how it just blocking status isn't fully completing the concept, I have this to offer. Encore, Taunt, and Leech Seed are NOT high priority. This Pokemon has an offensive bias, and the way abilities and stats are going, it isn't going to be using many support moves, keeping in mind that Rapid Spin is still an attacking move. It won't be overly affected by Taunt. Encore maybe a little bit more problamatic, but I think this one will have to be excluded from the list of secondaries being stopped. The only real way to stop this is a custom ability, which I am opposed to. And Leech Seed is also stopped by a simple switch, or Rapid Spin.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

I completely agree with zarator, we need an ability that that threatens to kill, not to wall. The direction this concept has been heading is stopping the secondary USER on the opponents team, not the secondary in general. That's why I support Guts. If this Pokemon has an ability that allows it to take status, but not remove the Pokemon that used the status on it in the first place, it's not fulfilling its role. If it has Shed Skin, yes, the status will be removed, but the opponents Pokemon that uses the status can still affect your other Pokemon if CaP9 gets removed from play. But with Guts, CaP9 can Pursuit the stupid Blissey or Celebi into the ground.

But we've already got a great offensive typing, and from the way the stat spread thread is looking a great steaming vat of Attack as well; how much more can you possibly put on it?

The way I see it, the danger is that we may be pushing this CAP a little too far over the edge, rather like what may have happened in other CAPs: so much attacking power that it may well turn out to be yet another middle-of-the-road offensive Pokemon that's only slightly different. I would have to say that Guts goes a little too far; it's already very offensive, and I can't see CAP9 succeeding in its job if it goes too far in one direction. Not forgetting the fact that Guts massively reduces its survivability, especially if we're intending to use a Flame or Toxic Orb on it.

Poison Heal, on the other hand, gives us vastly improved survivability, compensating slightly for the number of weaknesses, and doesn't encourage people to use it as a simple offensive Pokemon - If you have to run Toxic Orb, you can't run Life Orb or Choice Band, and you eliminate not only partway potential for offensive overpowering, but also digression from the most important part of CAP - to learn about the metagame. Not to mention that its usage as an ability gives us no negative side-effect, as with Guts.

 

[Seargeant Chilli]

I am going to have to go with the flow here and go with Guts as a good ability for this CAP. It will have great physical attacking stats, and, with a switch in to the common Toxic, Will O'Wisp (as Guts ignores the attack drop from burn), and also Toxic Spikes, it will be getting a free turn of set-up from basically nothing. This would also be a good way to Stop The Secondary, as, once the CAP has been statused, other status will be made redundant.The player may not even have to use Toxic or Burn Orbs to do this, with the commonness of status moves these days. It could also make some interesting mind games with your opponent: try to cripple the opponent's sweeper and risk a switch-in with this CAP to ruin the fun? Or just play it safe...
I'm still not sure how to stop Leech Seed and Taunt though, maybe the only way is for a custom ability to be made, but the ones I could come up with would probably make the CAP far too over-powered.

Anyway, my rambling aside, Guts is the pick of the crop.

 

[zarator]

But we've already got a great offensive typing, and from the way the stat spread thread is looking a great steaming vat of Attack as well; how much more can you possibly put on it?

The way I see it, the danger is that we may be pushing this CAP a little too far over the edge, rather like what may have happened in other CAPs: so much attacking power that it may well turn out to be yet another middle-of-the-road offensive Pokemon that's only slightly different. I would have to say that Guts goes a little too far; it's already very offensive, and I can't see CAP9 succeeding in its job if it goes too far in one direction. Not forgetting the fact that Guts massively reduces its survivability, especially if we're intending to use a Flame or Toxic Orb on it.

Poison Heal, on the other hand, gives us vastly improved survivability, compensating slightly for the number of weaknesses, and doesn't encourage people to use it as a simple offensive Pokemon - If you have to run Toxic Orb, you can't run Life Orb or Choice Band, and you eliminate not only partway potential for offensive overpowering, but also digression from the most important part of CAP - to learn about the metagame. Not to mention that its usage as an ability gives us no negative side-effect, as with Guts.

When, all of a sudden, offensive stats + offensive ability became more "middle-in-the-road" than offensive stats + defensive ability?

On a more serious note, I don't see how Poison Heal would discourage the use of moves like Toxic. The only reason people are wary to use Toxic when Breloom is around (i.e. to give Breloom a free switch in) does not lie in Poison Heal itself, but rather in the deadly arsenal of Spore, Seed Bomb, Substitute, Focus Punch, Leech Seed etc. It is the offensive threat, not the defensive, which puts the pressure on the opponent. And I fail to see how a simple 115-120 Atk plus Dark and Ground STAB can be comparable to the moves I listed above (seasoned with a great 130 Atk). As of now, CAP9 is nowhere near the offensive might of Breloom (again, if you take into account tools like Spore). On the contrary, Guts would push CAP9's power so high that even an heavy stall team's defenses could be wiped out (almost), should the opponent abuse status.

Of course, you may say: with Guts, CAP9 will end up wielding Flame/Toxic Orb just like Poison Heal (remove the "flame" thing, ofc) and being a bread-and-butter sweeper. Unless we give it something like dragon Dance (which I think is unlikely to happen), I doubt CAP9 will outdo the frightening physical sweepers of OU like Lucario. The only way CAP9 could reach enough power would be wielding Life Orb WITH Guts activated. Which is the scenary a secondary user will fear (much more than Poison Heal)

 

[Illithian]

Its worth mentioning that orbs punish trickers as well, which makes guts an even more viable ability.

 

[Apocalypse B-C]

In my opinion, no one ability should be able to cover everything, or as much as possible. Rather, CAP9 could have 2 abilities, each of which has its own benefits but leaves CAP9 open to what the other ability covers - like Bronzong with Levitate and Heatproof, except the two abilities would be equal, or just about. It would keep opponents guessing as to how to cover it, playing mindgames and such on the opponent.

My thinking is that the two abilities could be Flash Fire and Shadow Tag. Flash Fire allows switch-ins on and immunity to Will-o-Wisp, which would potentially cripple CAP9's sweeping abilities, while Shadow Tag could trap secondary users and stop them from switching out, allowing CAP9 to just whale away on them with offensive power (I put Shadow Tag rather than Arena Trap because a number of secondary users - notably Latias, Skarmory and Rotom-A - have Levitate or are Flying-type and are immune to Arena Trap, so they would still be able to switch freely)....just as a possibility. Obviously, only the Flash Fire variant would likely be running Pursuit, which could then free up room on the Shadow Tag variant for another move like Rapid Spin or an attacking move fir type coverage....

 

[Objection]

(I put Shadow Tag rather than Arena Trap because a number of secondary users - notably Latias, Skarmory and Rotom-A - have Levitate or are Flying-type and are immune to Arena Trap, so they would still be able to switch freely)

Latias and Rotom-A would be weak to Pursuit though. Also, I don't think it's bad that Skarmory would be able to escape from CAP9's clutches because, let's face it, there's got to be something that CAP9 can't beat. Furthermore, wouldn't Shadow Tag be broken anyway? Case in point: Wobbuffet.

 

[Raikaria]

Shadow Tag? There's a reason why Wobbuffett is Uber.

Shadow Tag is 90% of it, combined with Encore, and possibly Counter-Coat. We don't want something with the ability to actually hit stuff running around with a Trap-All ability, it'll become 'Slap a Scarf or CB on, and revenge kill anything', not, 'Lets stop the status!'

In other words, I wouldn't suggest Shadow Tag. It ruins the whole point why we gave CAP9 the Dark type anyway (Which dosen't help our objective, but, hey, I voted against Dark)

 

[Apocalypse B-C]

Eh. As said, was just an idea; couldn't really think of another ability on the spot to pair with Flash Fire, so I just threw Shadow Tag in there....

 

[Illithian]

Eh. As said, was just an idea; couldn't really think of another ability on the spot to pair with Flash Fire, so I just threw Shadow Tag in there....

Flash Fire is far too specific; unlike Guts, which protects against the full spectrum of status. Flash Fire isn't even all that helpful because it still leaves you susceptible to every other status.

Really, it should be Guts + something else that stops less used secondary effects, i.e. taunt, encore, etc.

 

[Plus]

Anyways, Ability poll's up with Beej's Magic Coat Ability, Poison heal, and Guts. I went with Guts over Poison Heal as it worked better offensively, complimenting the stat spreads I've seen better, and I went with it over Beej's Magic Coat as well. First, Beej's Magic Coat presents a few issues I would like to discuss and address with you all after talking to Beej himself concerning the concept of a new ability. Regarding new ability, here's what we have established.

Looking at CAP as a whole, we add a new factor into the OU metagame to learn about it. With new abilities, you are also adding new factors into the CAP, and thus the OU metagame to learn. This is one way to look at new abilities. You're making something to explore a metagame, why not an ability too? Here's where the mission statement comes into play. "The Create-A-Pokémon project is a community dedicated to exploring and understanding the competitive Pokémon metagame by designing, creating, and playtesting new Pokémon concepts." We are not looking to change basic mechanics of a pokemon, though that is irrelevant with AMC ability because we are adding, not modifying mechanics. Though, learning about the metagame is the big idea for the CAP project. As a whole, we are adding something to the game that is in line with the standard mechanics. However, this is probably the big reason as to why I'm opposed to new abilities as well as others.

Is this project "Create-a-Pokemon" or "Create-an-Ability"? Where do we draw the line as to where the ability takes over the pokemon, and we see the ability help us learn more about the metagame as opposed to the pokemon itself? CAP 8 concept, neglected ability, IMO had a "Create-an-Ability" mindset in the fact that we were actually using an ability to help us learn more about the metagame, with CAP 8 basically being the medium for this ability -- apart from ability, there was NO direction with the CAP whatsoever. Should the ability accommodate the pokemon, or should the pokemon accommodate the ability? Frankly, I prefer the latter.

There are two ways to look at this, and I won't deny it. You could argue for ages that creating a new ability is similar to creating a pokemon, as we add new factors to the metagame regardless. On the contrary, you could argue that we should stay close to the OU metagame in order to learn more about something relevant, which is also true. Call me a hardass here for allowing this into the polls even though I don't like new abilities, but I want to see what others think as well. I actually like AMC's concept as a whole, but am against it for the fact that it is a custom ability.

We're looking to explore by creating a pokemon, not necessarily an ability. Should an ability be a tool to help the created pokemon explore this concept, or should this pokemon be a tool to explore the ability is basically the gist of what I'm saying here. Based on the mission statement, I'm going for guts. I'd like to stick to exploring solely a Pokemon's impact here, without any other additional variables added.

 

[Illithian]

Auto-Magic Coat is a tool to help explore the concept. The pokemon is hardly built around it. And the fact is, you can't replace Auto-Magic Coat by putting Magic Coat into your movepool since AMC works as you switch in. Guts is fine, but AMC will deal with a much wider range of secondary effects. And I don't really see whats wrong with creating an ability, especially an ability thats so similar to a move and isn't broken at all.

Also, with AMC, unlike Guts, this pokemon's attack won't be boosted to insane levels, which gives some maneuvering room for movepool creators.

Also, why isn't this locked?

 

[zorbees]

This isn't locked because we can discuss the ability during the poll.

 

[Illithian]

Aah. Also shouldn't Arena Trap have been included in the poll? It was argued for by a few people.

 

[Plus]

Auto-Magic Coat is a tool to help explore the concept. The pokemon is hardly built around it. And the fact is, you can't replace Auto-Magic Coat by putting Magic Coat into your movepool since AMC works as you switch in. Guts is fine, but AMC will deal with a much wider range of secondary effects. And I don't really see whats wrong with creating an ability, especially an ability thats so similar to a move and isn't broken at all.

Also, with AMC, unlike Guts, this pokemon's attack won't be boosted to insane levels, which gives some maneuvering room for movepool creators.

Also, why isn't this locked?

1) I don't believe it will be insane.

2) It's not locked because the poll's going on, and people can still use this thread for support/swaying votes

3) It's a tool, or extra variable that imo detracts a bit from the overall "learning about the metagame" aspect of CAP since you're using something currently nonexistant as an ability. CAP is nonexistant in current OU but it's made like OU pokemon to test the effects on the game.

I've really just stated my points as well as saying that it's fine to argue both sides, I've just backed my side. Don't think of it as me devalidating AMC as a concept -- why do you think I allowed in the polls then?

Aah. Also shouldn't Arena Trap have been included in the poll? It was argued for by a few people.

Lots of abilities were argued by a "few people". You know the process well enough, or I hope you know well enough, that I have the power to control poll slates.

 

[Illithian]

Well, I can understand how creating a new ability would detract from testing the actual OU metagame. However, since this ability is very similar to a move that already exists, shouldn't that factor into the discussion?

Also, its worth mentioning that there aren't any abilities that really counter non-status effects.

True about Arena Trap, although it did have more supporters then most of the random abilities that were suggested. Redundant now anyway.

 

[Plus]

Well, I can understand how creating a new ability would detract from testing the actual OU metagame. However, since this ability is very similar to a move that already exists, shouldn't that factor into the discussion?

Also, its worth mentioning that there aren't any abilities that really counter non-status effects.

Uhh exactly the reason why I don't like custom abilities: There aren't any abilities that really counter non status effects. It's not possible in the OU metagame, and we'd add a new variable (excluding ones we're already purposely adding).

The fact still stands that it's an ability and not a move. Whether it's similar to an existing move or not isn't everything. For example, Auto-Taunt would be broken while Taunt would be fine. Magic Coat might not be viable on a moveslot for this cap but would be fine as an ability are some examples. Magic Coat requires much more prediction than AMC would, as well. Why would you Magic Coat on a Rotom when you could just kill it? They are nearly two different things in terms of play style.

 

[Cartoons!]

Not really digging that AMC is sweeping the polls at the moment. If I understand Magic Coat correctly, that would make our Pokemon not only immune to every status always, but to moves like Taunt and Torment too?

Any chance we could attach clause to this made-up ability, like, "only works on the switch-in" or something?

edit at zarator:
clearly I haven't. thanks for the correction, I'll try to be to more attentive next time.

So switching to CAP9 would in effect be like using Magic Coat with the added penalty of taking whatever damage you might get from the entry hazards. Still requires prediction, but saves a moveslot to perform a function one would imagine a concept like this would have to fulfill. It does make AMC look more palatable. This Pokemon might even serve as an interesting anti-anti-lead to bounce back Taunt and set up rocks of its own...unless...would it be hypocritical of Pokemon designed to protect its team mates from secondary effects to be able to use secondary effects of its own?