I voted Ground because I believe the immunity to T-Wave is vital when stopping the secondary. And, while it may seem a bit silly to say knowing full well that Toxic and Will-o-wisp, the other main "typing countered" status, are used by pokemon outside of their typing group, I think it still should be said that Ground is SE against both Fire and Poison.
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CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 3 - Secondary Typing Poll
- Thread starter Plus
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Ground is the way to go here.
Yeah, it brings 3 weaknesses to the table, but t wave immunity, SS immunity, SR Resistance, and STAB Earthquake is just too good to pass up. I know that we aren't supposed to be looking ahead to much in these polls, but it seems likely that this guy is gonnna get an ability that mitigates indirect damage, in which case a thunder wave immunity is better than a toxic (or will-o-wisp, leech seed, etc.) immunity. It seems that quite a few t-wavers are dark-weak, so being able to come in on the move and pursuit them seems so awesome.
I know that fighting is a syneristic typing with dark, but how does it fit the concept? The typing offers nothing in the way of stopping the secondary other than the SR resist, which probably won't matter anyway (expect Magic Guard here folks, let's face it).
The only advantage to fighting is that it makes it a better blissey counter, but it probably will be a decent counter anyway.
Yeah, it brings 3 weaknesses to the table, but t wave immunity, SS immunity, SR Resistance, and STAB Earthquake is just too good to pass up. I know that we aren't supposed to be looking ahead to much in these polls, but it seems likely that this guy is gonnna get an ability that mitigates indirect damage, in which case a thunder wave immunity is better than a toxic (or will-o-wisp, leech seed, etc.) immunity. It seems that quite a few t-wavers are dark-weak, so being able to come in on the move and pursuit them seems so awesome.
I know that fighting is a syneristic typing with dark, but how does it fit the concept? The typing offers nothing in the way of stopping the secondary other than the SR resist, which probably won't matter anyway (expect Magic Guard here folks, let's face it).
The only advantage to fighting is that it makes it a better blissey counter, but it probably will be a decent counter anyway.
OK then, I thought he said it doesn't resist anything... My bad
Skymin_Flower
It's Seed Flare time.
Fuzznip has pretty much outlined why Poison is a great secondary type. I could not have said all that better.
Although we already have two Poison/Darks...Skuntank and Drapion...and no Dark/Grounds. But I have seen Drapion a grand total of once in competitive battling, and have never seen Skuntank
Guess what I've voted for...
Yep, Ground.
While Poision actually almost won me over, because of combatting Toxic and Toxic Spikes, as well as only having one Weakness, Posion is a dreadful STAB, even worse than Steel. In addittion, Ground is a very common type.
Ground gives us a buffer to actually stop the secondary, unlike Fighting. With Fighting, we are almost resigned to 'benifiting from the suffering caused' (GUTS), or Magic Guard. The concept is to STOP the secondary, not make ourselves vunerable.
Ground also has some handy resists, to Psychic, which is common in CAP, and Electric, which is also quite common, given Gyarados' ever-present threat. Sure, the weaknesses are bleh, but most of them are not used by secondary users, except maybe Grass. Psychic, Ghost, and Electric (In the form of Thunder Wave) are the main things we should target. If CAP9 is fast enough, and hits hard enough, common Toxic users won't have a chance. Not to mention Posion Heal, ect is always an option as well.
Yep, Ground.
While Poision actually almost won me over, because of combatting Toxic and Toxic Spikes, as well as only having one Weakness, Posion is a dreadful STAB, even worse than Steel. In addittion, Ground is a very common type.
Ground gives us a buffer to actually stop the secondary, unlike Fighting. With Fighting, we are almost resigned to 'benifiting from the suffering caused' (GUTS), or Magic Guard. The concept is to STOP the secondary, not make ourselves vunerable.
Ground also has some handy resists, to Psychic, which is common in CAP, and Electric, which is also quite common, given Gyarados' ever-present threat. Sure, the weaknesses are bleh, but most of them are not used by secondary users, except maybe Grass. Psychic, Ghost, and Electric (In the form of Thunder Wave) are the main things we should target. If CAP9 is fast enough, and hits hard enough, common Toxic users won't have a chance. Not to mention Posion Heal, ect is always an option as well.
I voted Ground. Why? It has great STAB, resists Sandstorm, Stealth Rock, Twave and at least 5 types (which I can't remember right now). As Raikaria said, if it's fast enough then Toxic-users won't have a chance. I personally think this typing supports the "Stop the Secondary" concept much more.
Ground is the way to go here. It allows CAP9 to be offensive enough to take down secondary users (stats are not in mind, but this advantage is good enough for anyone) because of its immunity to Twave. I am aware Dark/Ground has a lot of weaknesses, but CAP9 will be able to deal with it because I believe there is no superior secondary typing to fulfill the concept.
Ground is my preferred vote. I've decided I don't really like the idea of Dark/Fighting as much as I used to, and as I am COMPLETELY against Dark/Poison, as a bad typing for CAP9, for me it is the only choice.
Dark/Poison is pretty bad defensively, it doesn't really give any important resistances that couldn't be kept with any other typing; the Bug neutrality is really a non-issue since this thing won't be switching in on Scizor or Flygon anyway, and if Scizor switches in, it would take a heavy amount from Earthquake, if it switched in when CAP9 was locked into Pursuit, it does give the opponent the momentum, but then the secondary has been eliminated - momentum can easily be recovered later. It all depends on the battler - there's no reason why Scizor being able to come in is the end of the world, when it can do it so easily on lots of other things in the OU metagame. In the case of Flygon, frankly I'm more worried about a super effective STAB Earthquake than a nonSTAB super effective U-turn.
Thus the crucial difference. A Fighting weakness for a Ground weakness. And frankly I would not like a weakness to the most common move in the metagame on CAP9, even if it is its only weakness. Whereas Dark/Ground seems more appropriate for the job - five weaknesses to five resistances/immunities. While Poison/Dark has a lot more defensive synergy, it is quite poor offensively - but I think it may be worth it, were it not for the fact that it cannot be used in tandem with Poison Heal.
Dark/Poison is pretty bad defensively, it doesn't really give any important resistances that couldn't be kept with any other typing; the Bug neutrality is really a non-issue since this thing won't be switching in on Scizor or Flygon anyway, and if Scizor switches in, it would take a heavy amount from Earthquake, if it switched in when CAP9 was locked into Pursuit, it does give the opponent the momentum, but then the secondary has been eliminated - momentum can easily be recovered later. It all depends on the battler - there's no reason why Scizor being able to come in is the end of the world, when it can do it so easily on lots of other things in the OU metagame. In the case of Flygon, frankly I'm more worried about a super effective STAB Earthquake than a nonSTAB super effective U-turn.
Thus the crucial difference. A Fighting weakness for a Ground weakness. And frankly I would not like a weakness to the most common move in the metagame on CAP9, even if it is its only weakness. Whereas Dark/Ground seems more appropriate for the job - five weaknesses to five resistances/immunities. While Poison/Dark has a lot more defensive synergy, it is quite poor offensively - but I think it may be worth it, were it not for the fact that it cannot be used in tandem with Poison Heal.
I voted Poison because of an immunity to Toxic and Toxic Spikes. I feel using Toxic is a big part of the metagame and that it's the biggest secondary that we're supposed to be stopping.
Plus, this CAP is going too fast. Please slow down.
You started the secondary typing discussion at around 9:30pm my time, and opened this thread at around 1am my time. Do you actually think that I can participate as well as I should in this CAP when I wake up today and already see a POLL for the secondary typing, when the last time I was on Smogon (8:45pm) there wasn't even a discussion thread for it? I am allowed to watch TV at night after a long and tough week in my workplace now, am I not?
This also holds for the other threads. I log on to Smogon from work and see already several pages of discussion, and a deadline that is within two hours or less for that thread or poll to be closed. It's a miracle that Normal typing was even considered for the main typing poll.
Please consider that not all of us are on the same timezone. This is already frustrating for me because I cannot even be on mIRC when most of the community is... so please don't carry this thing on for the forums as well.
You started the secondary typing discussion at around 9:30pm my time, and opened this thread at around 1am my time. Do you actually think that I can participate as well as I should in this CAP when I wake up today and already see a POLL for the secondary typing, when the last time I was on Smogon (8:45pm) there wasn't even a discussion thread for it? I am allowed to watch TV at night after a long and tough week in my workplace now, am I not?
This also holds for the other threads. I log on to Smogon from work and see already several pages of discussion, and a deadline that is within two hours or less for that thread or poll to be closed. It's a miracle that Normal typing was even considered for the main typing poll.
Please consider that not all of us are on the same timezone. This is already frustrating for me because I cannot even be on mIRC when most of the community is... so please don't carry this thing on for the forums as well.
Same here! In my time zone, everything here starts, begins, and progresses pretty far while I'm sleeping (bascally, 10pm-10amish).
But then again, Plus is the TL-we need to have a time when he can best coodinate the project. If changing the time causes problems for that, then the timing should just stay the same.
Ground
Point #6: We want to discourage people from relying on secondary effects. By extension, this means we want people to rely more on pure damage, and having several weaknesses encourages people to attack directly rather than spam status or whatever. Five weaknesses may seem a little over the top, but Dark/Poison's single weakness and Dark/Fighting's two weaknesses (one of which is rarely even used as STAB and none of which are 4x) are too little to encourage the use of pure damage.
Point #7:
Point #5: Although Dark/Ground does offer good STAB, STAB is not entirely necessary, which is why I objected to Dark typing in the first place. Scizor's Superpowers, Salamence's Earthquakes and Gyarados' Stone Edges still hurt loads despite not getting STAB. Therefore the STAB argument used to back Fighting and object to Poison is moot.
Point #6: We want to discourage people from relying on secondary effects. By extension, this means we want people to rely more on pure damage, and having several weaknesses encourages people to attack directly rather than spam status or whatever. Five weaknesses may seem a little over the top, but Dark/Poison's single weakness and Dark/Fighting's two weaknesses (one of which is rarely even used as STAB and none of which are 4x) are too little to encourage the use of pure damage.
Point #7:
We should make the most of our opportunities to get immunities to secondary effects in these early stages of creation. Then, once we get to stat spread discussion, we can talk more about how we can punish users of secondary effects.
imperfectluck
Banned deucer.
My vote goes to Ground because I feel that Ground gives it a superior set of resistances.
I'm disappointed that most people here are not voting for fighting just because of flavour reasons even though they know it would make a great typing with Dark.
Like others, because of my timezone i didn't have time to participate in the discussion so i would like to suggest to make them perhaps longer in the future?
I voted for Fighting even though it's pretty clear it won't make the cut, I will probably vote Ground next poll as i fully agree with what Deck Knight said about the many similarities Poison typing will give it with Drapion.
Like others, because of my timezone i didn't have time to participate in the discussion so i would like to suggest to make them perhaps longer in the future?
I voted for Fighting even though it's pretty clear it won't make the cut, I will probably vote Ground next poll as i fully agree with what Deck Knight said about the many similarities Poison typing will give it with Drapion.
Yeah, I agree, I almost completely missed the first typing poll what with having to sleep, school, etc.
Why not have each poll run for 24 hours?
For any other concept, including the Two Sided Attack one that didn't make the cut, Dark/Fighting would be a good typing. For this concept, we need a typing that is immune to at least one status effect and neither Dark nor Fighting does that.
Hear hear! To both of them! Resistances and 24 hour polls revolution!
Anyway, this thread will be going on for a few more hours (time converters keep giving me different times-anyone willing to tell me how much longer?), and it seems that Ground is gonna go all the way. If a massive amount of people gunning for Poison get on, though, that might change. I don't think Fighting has a chance of winning. It guess immunities galore have finally won over voters!
That's a good reason to not to vote for it, but what i'm refering to are mostly the reasons Doug pointed out.
Also Poison is a horrible typing itself, Toxic immunity doesn't fix that.
It's 7:00 EST right now, I think. Don't know if Plus means AM or PM, but I assume the former
Besides, when we come to decide on an ability, there is an ability that grants immunity to Toxic and other secondary effects and another couple of abilities that can make the poison status beneficial to CAP9 (certainly more so than paralysis status). The only abilities that would give CAP9 a Thunder Wave immunity (if it doesn't become Dark/Ground) have no concept-related use outside of that.
I talked about this before. The metagame will make great use of another grounded Poison type, so that's the way to go. Besides, having only one weakness is a big bonus too.
Also:
Also:
I actually have the exact same time zone as it would appear. I'm actually more used to missing important threads (lol), but X-Act is right - this is going on swiftly. Not that it's a bad thing, but as a result, users may miss an entire part of the CAP process. So, yeah, we need to do something about that...
Please. I am an advocate for Dark/Poison myself, but I wish that others would stop hyping Toxic Spikes absorption so much. It is a useful secondary trait for Poison. Surely the rest of you can actually see more to it than that? Poisons diverse movepool; its weaknesses and resistances; and I would also like to quote a line from "The Smog" in which Poison was given an overview.
SDS: "While Poison is commonly thought of as the worst type in the game, it is not without its perks. Poison-types tend to have fantastic movepools with which to bludgeon foes, and the resistances provided by the Poison typing are an excellent complement to most other types. It's not the best, but Poison definitely isn't a type to overlook."
And who said that Poison types had to be slow? Going by that logic, no one should pick Ground either. Look at Hippowdon. He is slow also. Oh wait, Flygon? He's pretty fast. Just because others of a group exude similar characteristics does not mean that all of them have to follow the set pattern. (Drapion even has 95 Base Speed.)
It doesn't give an immunity to any entry hazards. As a matter of fact, all it does is resist Stealth Rock. It is still susceptible to Toxic Spikes and Spikes. The same can be said of Poison. All it does it become immune to Toxic Spikes. It's a trade off. Which which you rather do? Absorb Toxic Spikes, or resist Stealth Rock?
Again, similarities don't mean everything in Pokemon. If you give it completely different Stats, a completely different movepool, and a different ability, can you tell me how it will be in any way similar to Drapion other than it's typing?
And my stance on Fighting was already rocking between it and Poison. Doug brought up a very valid point, however- What would fighting teach us? Honestly, nothing. It would teach us that Fighting and Dark make a great pair together. I'm sure we all already knew that. What does Fighting do to "Stop the Secondary", though? STAB Brick Break is the only thing it will be able to do to stop the secondary, and that is limited to breaking screens. Brick Break can accomplish the exact same thing on any other pokemon, albeit without STAB.
And when it comes time to choose the ability, there are plenty of abilities that make it immune to Thunderwave and other electric moves as well. Also, those same abilities make the Electric moves beneficial.
And how does it work that giving it a "Secondary Effect" immunity does not follow the concept? It's a back and forth arguement that you just brought forth; one that comes down to preference. "Do I want a Dark/Poison with [Ability] that can absorb Poison and [Move]? Or do I want a Dark/Ground with [Ability] that can absorb Electric and [Move]?"
He does not meant Ground is fast and Poison is slow, but rather that Ground has T-Wave immunity and so CAP9 speed would be less endangered
When did I argue that giving it a "Secondary Effect" immunity was not following the concept?
Raikizen actually brought some very interesting and true factors. An ability can be anything - even an ability that makes a Pokemon immune to all statuses. This is CAP: We can also make new abilities, so basicly, the ability can be anything and everything. My point is that the arguement should be about which type is better and not about the ability that goes with it at all. This is why this is a typing poll and not an ability poll.
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