I was thinking of voting poison but then after reading the reasoning behind it from other poison voters I changed my vote to Ground. Particularly due to the argument that dark/ground has more weaknesses than dark/poison. I don't know if CAP9 will be slow or fast because I don't intend to poll jump but I do know that there are fast pokemon already that have weaknesses and still accomplish their job in the team because of their speed. Accomplishing it's job at stopping the secondary with it's key strengths is the focus. Not just focusing on resistances. I believe that Dark/Ground has those key strengths.
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CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 3 - Secondary Typing Poll 2
- Thread starter Plus
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Errr... Water/Ground =/= Dark/Ground. The reason Drapion is relevant is because in has many of the things Poison supporters argue for, i.e faster than Rotom-A with decent defenses, Ground and Fire moves to hit Steels, etc. It even has Battle Armor to mitigate criticals from potential neutral attacks. In short it's already largely covered territory, and whatever improvements we could make probably could not overcome the fundamental weaknesses of Dark/Poison typing.
Not saying it couldn't be improved substantially, but it doesn't have many built-in advantages. Wasn't the argument against Dark/Fighting that Fighting had already been explored? Well, We could offer a stat upgrade to anything and probably make it viable, but it wouldn't be as much exploration as confirmation that a Drapion evolution would probably be awesome.
The resistances are huge factor. Firstly, I don't know why are you are switching into something that commonly uses Earthquake with a Dark/Poison Pokemon. How will Dark/Ground switch into U-Turns? Surfs? Leaf Storms? Ice Beams? It may not take full damage from SR or SS but here's some stuff that could be interesting:
Dark/Ground's Advantages Defensively (Attacking Moves and Thunder Wave only, greater than 1% usage from August):
Earthquake 21.17%
Thunderbolt 13.82%
Stone Edge 10.3%
Thunder Wave 4.04%
Earth Power 3.56%
Thunderpunch 3.08%
HP-Electric 1.47%
Total: 57.44%
Dark/Poison's Advantages Defensively (Attacking Moves and Toxic + Toxic Spikes only, greater than 1% usage from August):
Surf 9.74%
Ice Beam 8.73%
U-turn 7.91%
Close Combat 6.14%
Waterfall 5.92%
Ice Punch 4.88%
Superpower 4.43%
Toxic 3.6%
Grass Knot 3.57%
HP-Ice 3.4%
Brick Break 2.79%
Focus Blast 2.39%
Hydro Pump 2.04%
Ice Shard 1.95%
HP-Grass 1.9%
X-Scissor 1.74%
Ice Fang 1.66%
Focus Punch 1.34%
Dynamicpunch 1.24%
Leaf Storm 1.2%
Seed Bomb 1.02%
Energy Ball 1.01%
Total: 78.6%
That's a fairly significant advantage for Poison (almost equal to that of Earthquake's usage, if that means anything) switching in which could only be overcome by Ability for Ground (move pool would be severely limited in this regard).
However, Dark/Poison only boasts advantages against Breloom, Cacturne, Honchkrow and Heracross offensively which is fairly sad considering the disadvantages to many Steel types but move pool could really even this out.
Essentially, Dark/Poison has an advantage, notably, defensively and a disadvantage offensively which can be overcome easier than Ground's disadvantage defensively IMO.
Note: The inclusion of the respective status moves can be ignored for defensiveness' sake but it's a fairly negligible difference
Now that Fighting isn't an option, my vote went to Ground. Although it lacks the ability to deal with some Bulky Water secondaries like Vaporeon as effectively, and it does add 3 major offensive weakness (grass, ice, and water,) it offers a handful of advantages Poison does not:
1) SR resistance and Sandstorm protection
2) STAB Earthquake
3) Paralysis immunity
Although it can't absorb Toxic Spikes or boast Poison immunity, as has been stated earlier, Poison one of the less troubling status effect to deal with for a more offensive role (Burn and Paralysis being more troublesome.) So although being poisoned would lessen it's shelf life, it wouldn't have to worry about lowered attack or speed or missed turns, which are things that would keep it from stopping the secondary. For these reasons, Poison's advantages would be more useful to stalling the secondary than stopping it outright, which is what makes Ground the better of the two choices.
1) SR resistance and Sandstorm protection
2) STAB Earthquake
3) Paralysis immunity
Although it can't absorb Toxic Spikes or boast Poison immunity, as has been stated earlier, Poison one of the less troubling status effect to deal with for a more offensive role (Burn and Paralysis being more troublesome.) So although being poisoned would lessen it's shelf life, it wouldn't have to worry about lowered attack or speed or missed turns, which are things that would keep it from stopping the secondary. For these reasons, Poison's advantages would be more useful to stalling the secondary than stopping it outright, which is what makes Ground the better of the two choices.
help how did you get over 100% total?
I have seen nothing that has really impressed me as of yet (no main concepts), for this reason, I'm not hugely in favour of either typing. I think both can be relatively useful.
I'm voting ground in part because I think the offense will be useful and that it will give direction to the project (largely physical offensive), and partially because it is winning -- I have no interest in waiting for another superfluous poll. (PLUS YOU ARE TL, 50%+ means nothing!!!)
Once this project begins to take shape, I hope you can see more substancial posts from me.
I have seen nothing that has really impressed me as of yet (no main concepts), for this reason, I'm not hugely in favour of either typing. I think both can be relatively useful.
I'm voting ground in part because I think the offense will be useful and that it will give direction to the project (largely physical offensive), and partially because it is winning -- I have no interest in waiting for another superfluous poll. (PLUS YOU ARE TL, 50%+ means nothing!!!)
Once this project begins to take shape, I hope you can see more substancial posts from me.
This issue was raised in the first Secondary Typing Poll, but I doubt anything can be made of it since, after all, it's up to Plus. I suppose if enough people spoke out it'd make a difference but again, I'm no policy expert, I just chill here.\
EDIT:
Well, the sum of all moves used in OU is 400% (I think) since I presume it goes by number of Pokemon with this move but I am not sure. The point is that the two types have advantages over each other and this quantifies them to a degree.
You include Tspikes as a defensive advantage for Dark/Poison, but you don't include Stealth Rock as a defensive advantage for Dark/Ground? Additionally, don't forget Sandstorm. You might want to include TTar/Hippo usage rates as a defensive advantage for our grounded friend.
Anyway, I vote for Dark/Ground. While the sole weakness of Dark/Poison is very tempting defensively, we have no idea if CAP9 is even going to be a defensive pokemon. If it's going to be an offensive/balanced pokemon, Dark/Poison would be give it horrible STAB. Dark/Ground is much more effective offensively, with ground's great coverage and Dark's complimentary ability to hit the most common OU levitators (Latias and Rotom-A). Combine this with all of Dark/Ground's defensive advantages putting it at least on par with Dark/Poison's defensive advantages and it seems like the clear favorite.
Ack, my bad. I originally had none of T-wave, Toxic or Toxic Spikes so when I added them, I totally forgot Stealth Rock! I'll remove Toxic Spikes since, in a sense, neither should be there as you can't control switching into them.
I could add T-Tar and Hippowdon but then I would have to include Rain Dancers, Rapid Spinners and the like which makes this too complex.
Good call though.
I have already said multiple times why I support Ground.
To those who use weaknesses as reasoning for Poision, a pokemon for you, Celebi. Celebi has 7 weaknesses, Ice, Dark, Ghost, Poison, Bug, Fire and Flying, of those, 5 see common OU use, and one of them is a x4 weakness. Celebi also happens to be decent at defending against the Secondary, because of Natural Cure, although it dosen't STOP the secondary itself.
Dark/Poison gives us a Ground weakness, and Drapion is already a pokemon with the same type, decent movepool and stat layout. It dosen't break into OU, it's not even common in UU. Dark/Poison would be walled by the myriad of Steel types, and those carrying Earthquake/Land Power would happily kill it.
Also, Toxic dosen't stop a sweeper doing it's job, it just limits the turn count. Paralysis, however, does stop a sweeper, and makes it dead weight from the instant it happens. If CAP9 can punish Trick and Paralysis, it benifits both walls and sweepers alike.
My vote is for Ground.
@ Flareblitz: Those stats are from OU. The CAP metagame is different. Stealth Rock should count as well, seeing as you are counting T-Spikes for Dark/Poison, and Ground/Dark resists them. And, seeing as the highest for Dark/Poison is not even 10%, it's a ton easier predicting the Thunderbolts, which are an immunity, than the Surfs, which will still hurt, especially from Starmie, and Emploeon, the latter is suicide to switch into for CAP9, either way, although Ground can revenge it. Count all Hippowdon and Tyranitar too, please.
Also, I took the libery of Fixing FamilyGuyMan's chart:
Then, start counting OFFENSIVE advantages. Ground wins 100% there. Breloom and Celebi vs Metagross, Jirachi, Tyranitar, Heatran, Lucario, ect.
Oh, and, move-wise, there's 400%, 4 moves per pokemon, and it's times moves are on a pokemon.
To those who use weaknesses as reasoning for Poision, a pokemon for you, Celebi. Celebi has 7 weaknesses, Ice, Dark, Ghost, Poison, Bug, Fire and Flying, of those, 5 see common OU use, and one of them is a x4 weakness. Celebi also happens to be decent at defending against the Secondary, because of Natural Cure, although it dosen't STOP the secondary itself.
Dark/Poison gives us a Ground weakness, and Drapion is already a pokemon with the same type, decent movepool and stat layout. It dosen't break into OU, it's not even common in UU. Dark/Poison would be walled by the myriad of Steel types, and those carrying Earthquake/Land Power would happily kill it.
Also, Toxic dosen't stop a sweeper doing it's job, it just limits the turn count. Paralysis, however, does stop a sweeper, and makes it dead weight from the instant it happens. If CAP9 can punish Trick and Paralysis, it benifits both walls and sweepers alike.
My vote is for Ground.
@ Flareblitz: Those stats are from OU. The CAP metagame is different. Stealth Rock should count as well, seeing as you are counting T-Spikes for Dark/Poison, and Ground/Dark resists them. And, seeing as the highest for Dark/Poison is not even 10%, it's a ton easier predicting the Thunderbolts, which are an immunity, than the Surfs, which will still hurt, especially from Starmie, and Emploeon, the latter is suicide to switch into for CAP9, either way, although Ground can revenge it. Count all Hippowdon and Tyranitar too, please.
Also, I took the libery of Fixing FamilyGuyMan's chart:
Ground wins, by a margin greater than Stealth Rock's useage.
Then, start counting OFFENSIVE advantages. Ground wins 100% there. Breloom and Celebi vs Metagross, Jirachi, Tyranitar, Heatran, Lucario, ect.
Oh, and, move-wise, there's 400%, 4 moves per pokemon, and it's times moves are on a pokemon.
Are you an idiot? Please re-read my post, and then get back to me. You can't be fucking serious with that response.
I think I explained enough times why my vote goes to Poison. If the poll does end up going with Ground, this really is unbelivable.
I voted Poison again. This is my reason:
1. To stop paralysis all you have to do is make CAP9 slow. Notice I said paralysis, not Thunder Wave. To stop Thunder Wave all we would have to do is give CAP9 Motor Drive. Then Pokemon would start using moves like Stun Spore and Body Slam. Slow Pokemon only care about the 25% chance of being fully paralyzed, not the speed drop.
1. To stop paralysis all you have to do is make CAP9 slow. Notice I said paralysis, not Thunder Wave. To stop Thunder Wave all we would have to do is give CAP9 Motor Drive. Then Pokemon would start using moves like Stun Spore and Body Slam. Slow Pokemon only care about the 25% chance of being fully paralyzed, not the speed drop.
If we make CAP9 Slow, and give it a type that only stops Toxic, every other status user will be jumping up and down at the prospect. Not to mention sweepers such as Lucario who would love to set up on a slow pokemon which they resist both STABs of.
And, Mushtool's right, actually. Celebi resists all of Ground/Dark's weaknesses, except for Ice, which Heatran, usually paired with Celebi, already does. (Not like Ice types use Secondaries, besides Froslass) Celebi does a good job to stopping other status, like Poision, by taking it, and switching out once it's driven the user away.
And, Mushtool's right, actually. Celebi resists all of Ground/Dark's weaknesses, except for Ice, which Heatran, usually paired with Celebi, already does. (Not like Ice types use Secondaries, besides Froslass) Celebi does a good job to stopping other status, like Poision, by taking it, and switching out once it's driven the user away.
Voted Poison, despite the overwhelming Ground victory. A lot better defensively (Not weak to some of the most common attacking types, which a lot of Trickers carry), and of course takes care of Toxic/Toxic Spikes. I mean, it's not like CAP9 can't deal with Sandstorm and Thunder Wave another way...
Dark/Ground
Summing up reasons here, I think I've summed them up enough times now:
Summing up reasons here, I think I've summed them up enough times now:
- Stealth Rock resistance and Sandstorm immunity
- Better offensive typing
- Fighting weakness + Ground Neutrality > Fighting neutrality + Ground weakness
- This thing is not a bloody Drapion clone
- Freedom of abilities: no restrictions on Poison Heal
- More scope for learning about the metagame; rather than 'playing it safe' with Poison/Dark, we could see how well Ground/Dark fares in the OU metagame, rather than just churning out a slightly-better Drapion. It doesn't really matter if CAP9 succeeds or fails, IMO, as long as we learn something constructive.
I'm just going to reply to a post in the previous poll here:
In other words:
Also, I don't like how in the last two CAPs we had to nerf their movepools to prevent them from being broken. It's going to be much harder to make CAP9 broken if it has five weaknesses than if it has only one weakness.
You may think that I'm crazy for saying this, but this argument is false. The opponent was discouraged from relying on a secondary effect and in turn was encouraged to rely on direct damage and CAP9's weaknesses to get closer to victory. It may have been that Blissey could have used Thunder Wave on the currently-in-play Scarftran without Explosion, but if our Ground-type CAP9 came in on that Thunder Wave, that Thunder Wave would've been a turn wasted. Next time, the Blissey user will be more reluctant to use Thunder Wave. CONCEPT MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.
In other words:
- Concept is Stop the Secondary
- This means we want to discourage people from relying on secondary effects
- Therefore we want to encourage people to rely more on direct damage
- More weaknesses encourages people to rely more on direct damage
- Therefore people will be discouraged from relying on secondary effects - why paralyse when you can kill in two hits, especially if the move has no effect?
- Concept fulfilled
Also, I don't like how in the last two CAPs we had to nerf their movepools to prevent them from being broken. It's going to be much harder to make CAP9 broken if it has five weaknesses than if it has only one weakness.
Skymin_Flower
It's Seed Flare time.
What I think mushtool means is, Celebi is a pokemon with a whopping 6 weakness, but that does not really detract from its usefulness. even though it has so many weaknesses, Celebi is still a good pokemon. If CAP9 is Dark/Ground, even though it has a lot of weaknesses, that does not mean it will be a bad pokemon.
That's what I meant when I said: "Ground types struggle with Leech Seed, where as Poison types can punish Sub-Seeders."
After considering it greatly, I have changed my vote from Poison to Ground. While Poison's defensive benifits are nice, Ground is better offensively. But there are two things I am really starting to like about Ground:
1) It has access to Poison Heal! While I could not com up with a way to make Dark/Poison immune to all status, Dark/Ground has one great thing going for it. It can switch into a T-Wave or something, and then have the Toxic Orb activate. As long as it avoids burns or sleeping moves (easy enough to see coming) than it will become immune to all status.
2) Dark/Ground has a resistance to Stone Edge AND Crunch AND SS. This already makes it a threat to T-Tar, if we just give it EQ (as if that is not going to happen). The only thing a T-Tar could do to it is Aqua Tail or Ice Beam.
On the flip side, there is one thing I am tired of with Ground supporters-Please stop bring up Drapion. Poiwrath had the same typing as Arghonaut, slightly weaker stats, and a very similar movepool. Arghonaut was a very good CAP and we learn quite a bit from its ability, not its typing. Fidgit had the same typing as nidoqueen, they both fill the same role as spikers, and both are fairly bulky. But we improved on what Nidoqueen does by giving Fidgit more speed, and more support moves. Stratagem and Sudowoodo have identical typings-but they are no where near the same pokemon.
1) It has access to Poison Heal! While I could not com up with a way to make Dark/Poison immune to all status, Dark/Ground has one great thing going for it. It can switch into a T-Wave or something, and then have the Toxic Orb activate. As long as it avoids burns or sleeping moves (easy enough to see coming) than it will become immune to all status.
2) Dark/Ground has a resistance to Stone Edge AND Crunch AND SS. This already makes it a threat to T-Tar, if we just give it EQ (as if that is not going to happen). The only thing a T-Tar could do to it is Aqua Tail or Ice Beam.
On the flip side, there is one thing I am tired of with Ground supporters-Please stop bring up Drapion. Poiwrath had the same typing as Arghonaut, slightly weaker stats, and a very similar movepool. Arghonaut was a very good CAP and we learn quite a bit from its ability, not its typing. Fidgit had the same typing as nidoqueen, they both fill the same role as spikers, and both are fairly bulky. But we improved on what Nidoqueen does by giving Fidgit more speed, and more support moves. Stratagem and Sudowoodo have identical typings-but they are no where near the same pokemon.
As a Ground supporter myself, I totally agree with this point. As of CAP4 at the very least, unique typing has not been a requirement for any CAP project nor should unique typing be an argument in any way, shape or form, whether it be in favour of or against certain types.
You say that as though 25% chance of being unable to do anything is negligible. If paralysis status eventually wore off like sleep does, then it wouldn't be such a big issue, but that is clearly not the case. Toxic may seem crippling, but sometimes a pokemon only needs one turn to do its work, something that Toxic would only prevent if the pokemon's health was low after entry hazard damage.
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