CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 3 - Secondary Typing Poll 2

[X-Act]

I voted Poison. It is weak to less types than Ground, and, when all is said and done, if Stealth Rock is already on the field, you're not playing this Pokemon to its full potential, as it should have stopped the opponent from setting them up in the first place. This Pokemon should 'stop the secondary', not 'remove secondary effects'.

 

[Azule]

This CAP is moving really fast, but anyway.

I'll stick to my Poison vote, just because I can't agree with a Dark/Ground Pokemon being able to fully "Stop the Secondary"; it's weakness means it'll get taken out when it switches in, if the opponent predicts it correctly.

 

[Umbreon Dan]

1. To stop paralysis all you have to do is make CAP9 slow. Notice I said paralysis, not Thunder Wave. To stop Thunder Wave all we would have to do is give CAP9 Motor Drive. Then Pokemon would start using moves like Stun Spore and Body Slam.

people didn't start using stun spore when fidgit was introduced. it's not ganna happen for a motor drive pokemon either.

oh and by the way, the grass weakness can be mostly mitigated by giving it a light weight. voting ground

edit:

It also helps with Leech Seeders AND gives access to Toxic.

it doesn't do either of these ffs

 

[Wombat Sky Forme]

Poison. You absorb T-Spikes, and you only have one weakness. It also helps with Leech Seeders AND gives access to Toxic. You get free turns ny switching into Toxic too, and maybe it's just me, but I see Toxic way more than Thunder Wave. It's hardly ever on Blissey at this point.

 

[UncleSam]

I voted Ground in the first poll, but the arguments made in this thread have convinced me to go with Poison. Dark/Poison is not that horrible a STAB combo, and if this CAP got some other moves than it really would not matter on the offensive. Also, this typing would allow for a more balanced Special/Physical pokemon, whereas if it was Ground everyone would want the CAP to have a high attack stat to take advantage of Earthquake. On the defensive, the point of this pokemon is to stop the secondary for ALL SIX POKEMON on it's team, and Poison would further that goal by removing Toxic Spikes. Also, if paired with an ability like Magic Guard, the CAP would be immune to SR and Sandstorm anyways. Granted, Thunderwave would be annoying, but the CAP can't stop everything, and there are lots of Ground types out there to stop TW already.

 

[Pink]

Sticking with Poison... I think the ability to stop the secondary effects for the whole team is much more valuable than making one pokemon on the team immune to a secondary effect.

 

[Anachronism]

Voted Ground because I am OCD and wanted it to be 65-35 exactly. lol.

All kidding aside, I voted Ground because t-wave immunity is more important as far as the concept goes than toxic immunity or fewer weaknesses.

There are simply a lot more ways to stop toxic than t-wave through use of ability (Its doubtful we would go with volt absorb, limber, or motor drive for the ability, as there are a lot better abilities for the concept that we could go with).

 

[Staraptor Call]

Poison supporters keep bringing up how the many common weaknesses of Dark/Ground would limit CAP9's viability. But what about Tyranitar? Tyranitar has weaknesses to Ground, Water, Grass, and Bug, and a 4x weakness to Fighting. But that doesn't keep it from being a consistent top-10 OU Pokemon. If CAP9's other characteristics are good enough, it will be viable despite a Dark/Ground typing. Ground works much better than Poison for the concept due to its resistances to Thunder Wave, Sandstorm, and Stealth Rock, so I am voting for Ground.

 

[Raikizen]

Poison supporters keep bringing up how the many common weaknesses of Dark/Ground would limit CAP9's viability. But what about Tyranitar? Tyranitar has weaknesses to Ground, Water, Grass, and Bug, and a 4x weakness to Fighting. But that doesn't keep it from being a consistent top-10 OU Pokemon. If CAP9's other characteristics are good enough, it will be viable despite a Dark/Ground typing. Ground works much better than Poison for the concept due to its resistances to Thunder Wave, Sandstorm, and Stealth Rock, so I am voting for Ground.

I'm not really going to argue for either type anymore. However, I still want to point out things that I think are amiss in others reasoning. First of all: Yes, Tyranitar has those weaknesses. It also has a decent Special Defense Stat and Auto Sandstorm to increase that stat by another 50%.

And if people want to keep bringing up "Pokemon x has y weaknesses and it still does good!" Abomasnow. Seven weaknesses. It is hardly ever used outside of Hail starting. It can make an effective subseeder sometimes too. He is a prime example of weaknesses gone wrong, though.

1. To stop paralysis all you have to do is make CAP9 slow. Notice I said paralysis, not Thunder Wave. To stop Thunder Wave all we would have to do is give CAP9 Motor Drive. Then Pokemon would start using moves like Stun Spore and Body Slam.

Actually, the only possible ways to prevent Paralysis from fully paralyzing a Pokemon is to give it access to a move that absorbs electric, give it Magic Guard, or make it Ground Typing. Honestly, out of all of those, Ground and Magic Guard are the only ones I see being competitively viable. Making CAP9 slow will only stop it from truly being hindered by the negative speed of paralysis.

And while, yes, a slower CAP would yield better results against paralysis, that leaves a big weakness: The actual secondary users themselves. If the CAP is slower than the secondary users before it was paralyzed, then it could possibly be removed before it even gets a chance to stop the secondary.

 

[Maci12]

I vote Ground out of the two remaining options. Ground is a much better STAB type, and so it can punish most secondary users far better than Poison. SubSeeders are really the only ones that wall it with the exception of Skarmory, and even then, the majority of the common SubSeeders in OU don't wall it, as Ground does Neutral damage to Roserade, which is the same as Poison, and Ground has better coverage (obviously). Celebi is taken care of by Dark attacks, so really the only common subseeder you miss out on is Breloom.

The amount of weaknesses is rather depressing, yes, but plenty of bulky pokemon are able to succeed with even more weaknesses than 5 (Celebi, Tyranitar, etc.). Also, as I have stated before, there are already 2 Dark /Poisons, and they are both in UU mostly due to their typing. Here are some direct quotes from Smogon talking about Drapion.

The story is a bit bleak, however—while Drapion's typing only gives it a single weakness, it only has 5 resistances / immunities, all of which are types rarely seen alongside each other.

~Drapion Analysis On Smogon

And Dark/Ground sports 6 Resistences and Immunities to very common attack types and Stealth Rock
1. Dark (1/2)
2. Electric (Immune)
3. Ghost (1/2)
4. Poison (1/2)
5. Psychic (Immune)
6. Rock (1/2)

 

[Objection]

Actually, the only possible ways to prevent Paralysis from fully paralyzing a Pokemon is to give it access to a move that absorbs electric, give it Magic Guard, or make it Ground Typing.

Incorrect. Magic Guard does not prevent full paralysis. The ability that prevents paralysis is Limber and that is all that ability does.

 

[zarator]

Incorrect. Magic Guard does not prevent full paralysis. The ability that prevents paralysis is Limber and that is all that ability does.

Yes, it does. http://www.smogon.com/dp/abilities/magic_guard. As you will read here, the Speed is reduced normally, but you can't be fully paralyzed. The fact that you probably never noticed it is because of a Shoddy Battle bug. But hopefully it will be fixed with SB2, so we have to consider Magic Guard too (despite its bugs)

 

[Objection]

Ah, my mistake. I thought Magic Guard only prevented all indirect damage. It's a good thing then that full paralysis was not my only argument for Ground typing.

 

[Dream_Team]

When I first heard "Stop the Secondary," a few things came to mind. Would this take its concept name literally and STOP secondary moves/users? If so, does that mean that all it does is switch into secondaries, which would probably mean Taunt or a custom ability version of it, or stop it for the whole team, meaning a semi-permanent version of Disable?

Maybe you want something akin to petrie911's concept of "Turning the Tables," something that takes advantage of secondaries? That made me think. The first thought was a custom ability that upped stats the less hp you have (entry hazards), and upped it even more when afflicted with a status (uh...paralysis, burn, poison?)

Seems to me that, the way this discussion is going and having Dark as the primary type (correct me if I'm wrong, I didn't read the whole thing), people would rather switch into a secondary move, kill the user, then switch out. That, to me, sounds like Natural Cure, Arena Trap or the above mentioned custom ability is what's needed. If all you're going to do is get in, kill secondary user, then get out, it seems to me that you might as well do something else "Stop the Secondary"-esque while you're in there and absorb Toxic Spikes.

Bash me if I'm wrong, but POISON sounds pretty viable to me.

 

[Objection]

Before I go to sleep, I am going to explain why absorbing Toxic Spikes is really not that big an argument: CAP9 wants to stop the secondary, and since all entry hazards (not just Toxic Spikes) are forms of secondary damage, CAP9 will want a way to get rid of them all. The answer: Rapid Spin. Now, unlike every other viable spinner, CAP9 is immediately a threat to the ghosts that block the spin (with the two CAP ghosts being the only possible exceptions) because, since we voted for Dark typing, CAP9 is no doubt going to get several Dark-type moves to hit the OU ghosts with. Couple that with some good stats and suddenly keeping entry hazards in play, including Toxic Spikes, is harder than before.

 

[Plus]

I've been getting complaints about thread hogging and poll jumping. For those of you active people in the discussion, you do not need to reply to every comment that does not support your position. It's not your thread, it's actually everyone's. Here are a couple of pointers before posting.

• Get your opinion across, defend it a few times, then move on.That's all. If you can't get your opinion across in a few posts or don't know when to stop justifying your case, then you are thread hogging. Don't do it.

• You may post regarding possibilities that may occur during later polls, but you may not suggest an ability or move if it gets x typing. Know the difference, people. Poll jumping's a sin. Don't do it.

• Try to bring up new arguments. It's a back and forth of the same shit over and over with this thread. I think most of us get the point now. If you don't, then check the thread. It's boring and annoying to read 3 or so pages of the same bullshit.

EDIT: Closing this thread in 3 hours. Get your votes in, people.

Double Edit: Closing the thread. Ground is our CAP's secondary typing. So, our CAP's full typing is Dark/Ground.