CAP 9 CAP 9 - Concept Assessment

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This isn't "abuse secondary effects" concept but "stop secondary effects"

Abusing them is entirely the opposite of what this concept is.
But abusing secondary effects can be a good way to stop them. You'll force the users to switch out so they can take damage from SR and/or Spikes or so you can abse secondary effects again!

What about Magic Guard + Rapid Spin + Flame Orb?
Magic Guard prevents Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Stealth Rock, Burn, Poison, Leech Seed, Hail and Sandstorm.
Rapid Spin to remove hazards.
Flame Orb prevents Sleep, Paralysis and burns Tricker.
For reasons of creatvity, the general consensus is that Magic Guard should be ignored. And flame orb can't prevent sleep and paralysis AND burn Tricker at the same time...
 
This isn't "abuse secondary effects" concept but "stop secondary effects"

Abusing them is entirely the opposite of what this concept is.
If you think about it, abusing them is in a sense stopping them. For example, nobody will even think about using Toxic on Heracross, because that's just making it become twice as threatening. That means Heracross "stops" status (aside from paralysis), because the opponent is just giving Heracross the advantage.

Same works for Tentacruel. Celebi doesn't want to use Leech Seed, because Tentacruel can abuse its Liquid Ooze ability, so why would Celebi put its life at risk? That's essentially stopping it from using Leech Seed, because it and its team will be at a disadvantage.
 

Xia

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We need to stop talking about abilities, that can be talked about in its discussion thread. Anyway, I agree that we should ask ourself this:

How will Stop the Secondary stop secondary effects?

What I mean by this is, will this concept be taking advantage of these moves? Will it just be completely immune to them? Will it threaten the common users of secondary effects?

For me, I'd want to take this concept into taking advantage of said secondary moves. I don't really think having immunities is good enough. Sure you can switch right into Leech Seed if your Grass-type, but then what will you do? By making this Pokemon become more "threatening" when hit by secondary moves, it might just make the opponent think twice before using whatever secondary move it wants to use.

I also feel that this concept should not only abuse them, but threaten the common users of many of them at the same time. I mean, what if CAP9 can abuse Leech Seed, but can't do a thing against Celebi? That's a bit worthless if you ask me. So if we have this concept to threaten these Pokemon, it may just reduce the use of the common secondary moves.

In short, I feel this concept should take an offensive approach, by abusing secondary effects and threatening the common users of them, rather than just scoring free switch ins by immunities.
Although I do agree that this CAP should most likely take a more offensive approach, I don't think that making it a "check" of sorts is the best approach. Sure, you may be able to take down the top Stealth Rock, Toxic Spikes, Spikes, and other secondary status user in the game, but how does that exactly stop them from using their secondary? Just because a threat lowers their usage doesn't meant that it alltogether stops secondary; it takes some form of immunity or support to do that.

Perhaps a middle ground of immunity and offensive power is necessary. I'm not talking about making an offensive Spiritomb or anything like that, just moving the focus from punishing secondary users to actually keeping secondary off the field completely, through offensive threat and immunities. Balancing immunities, offenses, and weaknesses, though, will most likely be the biggest factor in keeping this CAP from becoming broken, in my opinion.

EDIT: Solstice's example compliments my feelings exactly.
 
I support an offensive CaP9, and Im going to use Starmie as an example. Starmue is obviously an offensive Pokemon, wide offensive movepool, high stats, etc. But with Rapid Spin and Natural Cure, it can take out entry hazards and can remove status. I believe we should do something similar, a Pokemon with an offensive bias, that can function by stopping them with immunities, offensive strength, and a decent coverage movepool. If its an offensive Pokemon that is supposed to have Rapid Spin and Taunt, it needs decent STABs to make up for the lower diversity of attacking moves.
 
I personally am leaning towards support. Offense is fine, though. Multitype is, in my opinion, a horrible choice that will cause anguish, pain and suffering when trying to decide things such as movesets, strategies and even the general stats. Natual immunities would be better.
 
things cap9 could be/do

have a way to deal with status' : best way imo is typing/ability or a combo rather than moves.
this would mean that it would give it an opportunity to switch in more often and accomplish its job

have a way to deal with/ignore entry hazards: rapid spin or equiv/typing and immunities (i like rapid spin as a team support option)

stop nondamaging effect/force switches: fast taunt or flash fire/motor drive/volt absorb/magic guard type abilities or bulky/offensive to force switch or limit moves to use against it

I kinda picture something that can switch into a status or immunity and taunt or threaten (force a switch eg motor drive/flash fire made it more powerful/faster) and then use rapid spin/aromatherapy on the switch

this means that your opponent might be less likely to use nondamaging moves left and right b/c they would be giving you an opportunity to switch in (thereby stopping some the secondary), also means maybe giving it rapid spin + pursuit (and power to threaten with it) so that it could not easily be stopped by a ghost and perform rapid spin successfully/easily

edit: another thought
maybe giving it two abilities:
one that stops/benefits from status'
one that stops/benefits from things like trick/leech seed/whatever

that way you can choose which works better for your team, and your opponent might not know which you have and would be hesitant to do one/both until they found out.
 
I also feel that this concept should not only abuse them, but threaten the common users of many of them at the same time. I mean, what if CAP9 can abuse Leech Seed, but can't do a thing against Celebi? That's a bit worthless if you ask me. So if we have this concept to threaten these Pokemon, it may just reduce the use of the common secondary moves.

In short, I feel this concept should take an offensive approach, by abusing secondary effects and threatening the common users of them, rather than just scoring free switch ins by immunities.
Would a (slow) mixed "sweeper" that benifits from status effects accomplish this?

Something like (sorry if I'm poll jumping):
*Immunity to toxic for those that try Toxic/Protect/wish combo
*ability that raises speed several stages when statused by Other Pokemon.
*SpAtk to scare common phys walls.
*physatk to scare common sp walls.
*Trick to pass tricked items back (yet normally too slow to use trick offensively).
*Rapid Spin/taunt/sub/recovery move/etc.
*(normally) low speed and moderate def/spdef would allow sweepers to kill it. But when statused (by other pokemon), can outspeed a majority of sweepers.
*Movepool that does not include agility/rockpolish/DDance/etc.

Just a thought.

The inability to activate it's ability on it's own is key. It prevents frameorb X sweep abuse.
 
Toxic, Thunder Wave, Body Slam, Will-o-Wisp, Trick

In the spirit of the concept, I believe our CAP should be immune to or benefit from at least ALL of these 100% of the time in common battle conditions. I do have a typing and a couple of abilities (other than Multitype) in mind for this but more on that in the relevant threads.

As far as all other effects are concerned (Encore, Leech Seed, Taunt, confusion, etc.) I am indifferent.
 

X-Act

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An interesting way to stop the effects then is to have an 'perma-Taunt' ability. And obviously it's not broken; people can just choose to attack the Pokemon.
 
An interesting way to stop the effects then is to have an 'perma-Taunt' ability. And obviously it's not broken; people can just choose to attack the Pokemon.
I'm not sure. How will it not be broken? A Pokemon can switch-in to stop a game-breaking move, or just shut down a Pokemon completely, without even moving. I think it is broken, but then again, it might be just me.
 
An interesting way to stop the effects then is to have an 'perma-Taunt' ability. And obviously it's not broken; people can just choose to attack the Pokemon.
If you guys are trying to make this specialized, then I can see an ability like this turning this into more than it should be. Would you want it to prevent all healing? I mean it wouldn't be broken, but would it not make it's role a little more anti stall than anti secondary? I wouldn't want this to be able to switch in on, say, a Vaporeon and prevent it from using wish. That extends it's use way past what was originally intended.

Also anti stat-booster. Auto taunt has way too many applications.
 

Korski

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Since we're on this topic, how about instead of a perma-Taunt ability, it has a Taunt-like field effect move that lasts for x-y (why not 2-4?) turns, allowing other pokemon to come in and do something without fear of Trick/Status/Phazing for a turn or two? That's a moveslot right there, so it would have to be integral to team strategy. Plus it gives this pokemon an edge over others that could be considered "Stop the Secondary" pokemon. This move could interact with stats and typing to make it non-game breaking (counterable).
 
Since we're on this topic, how about instead of a perma-Taunt ability, it has a Taunt-like field effect move that lasts for x-y (why not 2-4?) turns, allowing other pokemon to come in and do something without fear of Trick/Status/Phazing for a turn or two? That's a moveslot right there, so it would have to be integral to team strategy. Plus it gives this pokemon an edge over others that could be considered "Stop the Secondary" pokemon. This move could interact with stats and typing to make it non-game breaking (counterable).
lol, X-Act managed to just beat you on that one.

An interesting way to stop the effects then is to have an 'perma-Taunt' ability. And obviously it's not broken; people can just choose to attack the Pokemon.
This is true, but I can foresee a much frailer CaP coming out of this, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, and of course we could decide on it being frail on only one side of the spectrum.

However, I am of the disposition of putting together this CaP, so that it may block/counter/punish nearly everything, but will be limited to a select few (due to it's one ability four moves) by choice of the player. This would allow a player to "build" there own Secondary effect counter/blocker/punisher from a wide array of moves and abilities, causing the CaP to be open to certain abilities, while totally punishing others. This allows you to choose which build is best for your team, while not having the poke able to resist everything.

Essentially, I'm rooting for a more "sandbox-stop the secondary" CaP

For example, imagine we invented two magic coat/snatch abilities. Each of these abilities counters half of our listed threats, while the other ability counters the other half. This allows a player to pick and choose what protection best suits there team, while still keeping this pokemon in balance, and most importantly still keeps the opponent guessing at times (especially, when moves+abilities are concerned).

Another example in the same realm, which suits the argument of immunity-or-punish vein is one ability that allows you to be able to be immune to a wide array of things, while the other ability punishes a lesser amount of effects.

I realize this is a lot of speculation, but I wanted people to look at the more "sandbox" approach.
 

bugmaniacbob

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My own analysis:

Code:
Sleep
Poison
Paralysis
Freeze
Burn
Confusion
Roar
Whirlwind
Stealth Rock
Spikes
Toxic Spikes
Hail
Sandstorm
Rain
Sun
Gravity
Trick Room
Trick
Taunt
Leech Seed
Firstly, I think that the easiest way to make this Pokemon immune to status is to give it something similar to Breloom - self-inflicted status, allowing it to block the status moves of others and switch in for free on status moves. Poison Heal is a great ability, and the difference it makes to Breloom is fairly large, and crucially the Pokemon is never any worse off for inflicting itself with status, unlike a Guts Pokemon. While I'm not suggesting using it on CAP9 (since I feel it would probably be broken on what may likely turn out to be a bulkier Pokemon) it is, I feel, worth consideration. A free switch into a status move is extremely valuable, and I think it could be worth the moveslot to free up other areas, such as the typing.

I believe that the very nature of stopping secondary attacks dictates the ability to switch in unthreatened to many of the main culprits and to take advantage of the free turns; while not quite to the same extent as mentioned earlier by Deck Knight, but still allowing us to. Thus,

Blissey
Breloom
Celebi
Cresselia
Dusknoir
Latias
Rotom-a
Zapdos

...would be among the Pokemon that CAP9 should be able to tackle to a good degree of efficiency. I can think of a number of typings that would suit this CAP, allowing it to deal with these threats and more besides, as well as granting it several key immunities to common secondary moves, but to avoid poll-jumping I shall leave it there.

Some of the less important secondary attacks should, here, be omitted as main priorities. Trick Room and Gravity are lesser seen, to my knowledge, and usually based around an entire team, rather than being general methods of support. Moreover, as already noted, this Pokemon cannot use Taunt on the turn it switches in, and I would assume that Trick Room would be used on a switch and not in immediate danger of Taunt. Thus it is impossible, realistically, to stop Trick Room going up and even harder to remove it, as carrying Trick Room yourself just for the purpose of removing others' set-ups is pretty daft, all things considered. Freeze is only activated by low-chance moves such as Ice Beam, and as such cannot be considered the product of a secondary move, so is for the most part irrelevant. Confusion is, from my experience, an uncommon and oft-unreliable tactic, and leaves so much to chance that I would think it best to scrap, considering it is removed on switch-out, goes away naturally and could easily be countered by giving CAP9 low Attack and high Defence, while saving an ability slot for something potentially more useful. Then, entry hazards, the hot potato, as it were. Since there is only one way thus far to remove them, Rapid Spin, we find it difficult to make an absolute prevention of them going up, unless you happen to incorporate a sort of automatic Taunt Pokemon. As it stands, Toxic Spikes should be a non-issue if CAP9 is already unbothered by Poison (if not, the problem should be reconsidered, though I firmly believe that the concept cannot succeed without a Poison immunity), Spikes take a while to set up and Stealth Rock can be solved with a simple resistance, which is not too hard to incorporate, which should be sufficient to cover these areas.

This leaves us with the following:

Code:
[COLOR=black][COLOR=black]Sleep[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Poison[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Paralysis[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][COLOR=black]Burn[/COLOR][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Roar[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Whirlwind[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Hail[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Sandstorm[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Rain[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Sun[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Trick[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Taunt[/COLOR]
[COLOR=black]Leech Seed[/COLOR]
[/COLOR]
These can be grouped into the categories Status, Weather, and Other (naturally). Methods of dealing with status have already been discussed - from a special ability such as Poison Heal or Natural Cure to simple type immunities. In the case of weather, Sun and Rain are, at present, not the biggest problems. Rain teams are usually quite difficult to stop, and CAP9 would ideally be used to stop weather teams from functioning rather than simply countering them outright. Sandstorm and Hail are more pressing problems - they are the only constant weather conditions available in OU and of them Sandstorm is the only one where the typing can be used to work in its favour, as Ice offers few immunities to speak of, while also weakening it to Stealth Rock. Methods of dealing with weather teams are usually confined to abilities, such as Cloud Nine or one's own Sandstream to turn the weather in its own favour. While certainly an issue, weather is not on the same ground as status in terms of secondary team support, and CAP9 should, in my view, reflect that.

Now we come to the most interesting part - that which CAP9 was more or less designed to take on - the 'other' category of secondary moves. Of particular importance are Taunt and Trick, as well as Leech Seed. From my experience Leech Seed is the lesser seen and used option, so takes a back seat, especially as it requires a Grass typing or an ability that does not help in any other way for it to be deflected. It can be dealt with by Rapid Spin, should we choose to include it. This leaves Taunt, and Trick. There are a number of ways to deal with Trickers, but many of them involve a vital item slot or ability, although I believe Trick may well be the single most important move for it to stop. Ideally, it would be able to switch in on the Tricker time and again, so Klutz or Sticky Hold would be ideal, but then so would something like Toxic Orb, assuming that it does not mind the Poison status. Taunt is more difficult to stop, assuming that it will be carrying secondary moves of its own, but then the opponent suffers the same problem as CAP9 - it cannot switch in and use Taunt at the same time. Hopefully this crease can be ironed out later on.

On other ideas that have been presented - Multitype. I simply cannot see this working. True, it makes Trick fail and allows for a number of different takes on the concept according to the user, but I do not like the idea of 'Stop one thing - but your choice which'. I think the concept dictates that CAP9 should be able to repel a majority of the secondary attacks in the game all of the time. Multitype does not allow for this to happen, not least because of its potentially gamebreaking consequences - our Pokemon has now a seemingly endless movepool (in keeping with standards) and is practically uncounterable by any common means. On an instant Taunt ability - I would consider this less broken, certainly, than Drought or Drizzle, and maybe on the same scale as Sandstream, by conventional means. However, this would almost require us to give it poor defences or poor offences (or both), else it would simply make a perfect anti-lead, able to sit there and tank, without fear of Poison or boosting sweepers, or else an excellent sweeper, unbothered by status or Encore. Which is not, I assume, where CAP9 wants to end up. It's a very interesting idea, but may require some limitations to work competitively. In regards to a new field effect, I can't see this being implemented; I'm sure DJD has quite enough on his plate with a custom anything, let alone something that requires so great a change in game mechanics.

In conclusion then, this would, I think, represent an ideal interpretation of the concept:
  • Typing that not only allows one to absorb status but does not give Stealth Rock weakness (preferably), gives good defensive coverage and allows it to take on the majority of status spreaders and other support Pokemon
  • Ability that allows CAP9 to switch without fear into any one (but preferably more) secondary attacks; IF I am allowed, I would advocate something similar to Poison Heal in this category.
  • Lack of 'extreme' moves or abilities, such as Anti-Taunt or Anti-status (this point is up for debate in my mind, I have not quite decided on the point)
Just my honest opinion.
 
Since we're on this topic, how about instead of a perma-Taunt ability, it has a Taunt-like field effect move that lasts for x-y (why not 2-4?) turns, allowing other pokemon to come in and do something without fear of Trick/Status/Phazing for a turn or two? That's a moveslot right there, so it would have to be integral to team strategy. Plus it gives this pokemon an edge over others that could be considered "Stop the Secondary" pokemon. This move could interact with stats and typing to make it non-game breaking (counterable).
I like this idea much better than a auto-Taunt ability. But I think the move would have to last at least 6 or 7 turns to be truly useful. Although giving it a high turn # seems broken for a Taunt-field effect, keep in mind that only CAP 9 would be getting this move, making it much harder to set-up constantly, as opponents that utilize secondary effects will be wary of countering this one poke.
 
I think bugmaniacbob hit the nail right on the head. I share its reserves toward Multitype and Auto-Taunt, but I'm a bit more optimistic towards Poison Heal. Yes, on a bulky Pokémon it may be broken, but should we happen to give enough weaknesses to our CAP (maybe a x4 one), Poison Heal would be manageable even with average defenses (not necessarily poor). It would counter almost all statuses, Leech Seed to a little extent (yes, the opponent still recovers HP, but with Lefotvers and Poison Heal, you can nullify the HP loss barring SS/Hail, with less risk to get outstalled) and Trick somewhat (Not many things will enjoy a Toxic Orb, but if they happen to be Steel or Poison typed you are in even more danger than before).

This leaves open entry hazards, but we could simply give it Rapid Spin and call it a day. Besides, we do not have to cover everything. And for Taunt, give it a good offensive prowess and not so many Pokémon will attempt to taunt a probable incoming attack when they are going to be severely hurt.
 

Plus

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Hi guys, I'm liking the conversation, although try keeping multitype conversation to a minimum. I don't like how one person keeps bringing it up then causes a shitstorm for a couple pages or so.

Apart from that, good work! This thread will close in about 6 more hours, so expect to see typing discussion up soon as well as a poll.

EDIT: Just a reminder -- don't threadhog. This thread is not yours, it is everybody's. Furthermore, if you have nothing significant to add to this conversation at the moment, I suggest you do not post. If there is a question, I advise that you PM someone who is knowledgeable in said topic. I want intelligent discussion here, and hopefully not between just two people, but rather a whole community.
 
Well, i've noticed there are two ways to go about stopping secondary moves. Both of these methods involve prediction, since Taunting the wrong Pokemon, switching into a burn while expecting a thunder wave, and etc. are not avoidable. Prediction is such a necessary part of a battle, immunities are also very important. The direction to go from here has many contradictions and arguments based on what CAP9 should and shouldn't stop. First, we have

A) The "stand-alone" method, which is using preventative moves and abilities to abruptly stop the use of an opponent's secondary attack, but not exactly hinder the opponent from using them ever again. If we choose to go this way, our options are along the lines of Insomnia, Water Veil, Own Tempo, Sticky Hold, Aromatherapy, Safeguard, Subsitute, and other defensive traits. The opponent will not exactly be targeted by these immunities, nor will CAP9 be necessarily helping the team outside of taking status. and

B) The "don't touch me" method, which involves making use of the opponent's secondary moves for your own gain, or deliberately targeting the opponent to stop the move beforehand. Things such as Liquid Ooze, Synchronize, Taunt, Psychoshift, Poison Heal, Guts and the like, are things that the opponent will most certainly try to avoid activating.
Either way, both methods involve many effective ways to stop secondary moves and if we could somehow apply both, then we can absolutely fufill the concept.
 
The only problem is that if you go the orb route, you can't actually absorb status until you've already been out. There are ways to remedy this, like aromatherapy, but it seems counterintuitive to the item/ability, and it still deters you from switching in until you've gotten the chance to switch in to a non-status attack. As long everyone is suggesting abilities, wouldn't something like "can attack while sleeping" + rest work? I mean I'm only suggesting it because there are only two ways to reliably give yourself status in this game: the status orbs and rest. With the ability to attack while asleep, rest would become an unbelievable anti status move, though it wouldn't be anymore spammable than rest is with sleep talk.

Also as a problem with poison heal: Doesn't it kind of suggest a typing of poison or grass or maybe bug?
 
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