CAP 7 CAP 7 - Part 2 - Main Type Discussion

[Magmortified]

Our concept here:

Name: Ultimate Scout
Description: A Pokemon that is very capable of forcing the opponent to reveal vital information about their team members and their moves using various techniques.

This is the DISCUSSION thread. Please do not vote in this thread - they will not be counted and will lead to your post being deleted and a possible infraction. Voting is in the other thread.

 

[tennisace]

Vote Bug: STAB U-turn is awesome for scouting purposes. The Fighting/Ground resistances are amazing really. It would also be a check on TTar, seeing as neither could switch in on the other.

 

[Infiltrator]

Me and some other of the respected members of the CaP server were discussing about it's typing and we got into the Steel. Steel type gives you immunity to toxic and toxic spike which is very useful, and resists Stealth Rock. This steel type would be able to switch into Tyrannitar's Stone edge, choice Mence attacks and a few other competitive pokemon.

 

[jagged_angel]

In the previous thread, I proposed an order of importance of info to be uncovered by our Ultimate Scout:

1. Team Composition
2. Items
3. Movesets
4. Abilities

The reason for this order is that team composition gives you the most information. For example, if you see Fidgit, Hippowdon and Cradily, it pretty much reveals the opponents whole strategy. Revealing late game sweepers is also incredibly useful.

Since Team Composition is the most important information to reveal, Forcing Switches is the best thing an Ultimate Scout can do.

In order to forces switches, you have to be able to switch in as often as possible.

For this reason, a strongly defensive typing, ideally with a Stealth Rock resist is needed.

That typing is Steel.

 

[Deck Knight]

I believe Steel to be the best primary type for this pokemon.

We have a Scout, and its best use is to gather information. Information is harder to gather if any of the following are true.

- Stealth Rock weakness
- Toxic Spikes susceptible
- few resists
- common weaknesses

While I grant Fighting, Ground, and Fire are fairly common, Stealth Rock Resistance, Toxic immunity, Dragon Resistance, and various other resistances make this very easy to switch in repeatedly.

 

[macle]

I agree with Steel being the primary type.

Being able to switch in without entry hazards damaging you severely is important to scouts. With Steel type, you are able to achieve that.

Also being resistant to 11 types of attacks and immune to 1 is also great for scouting.

 

[Infiltrator]

We don't need another Scizor

How would Steel lead to another Scizor? Scizor is neutral to SR, and the odds of the second typing being Bug is very low. Not to mention that this scout MIGHT be a bulky CaP.

 

[Ziggy]

I support ground. SR resist. Immune to electric and can force a switch on electric using choice'd poke because of it (not very common, I admit). Weaknesses are Ice, Grass, and Water, not exactly types that need to be scouted.

 

[hydrolphin]

I have to agree with bug.

Steel has weaknesses to Ground and Fighting, argueably two of the most common types. The only advantages steel gives over bug are the Dragon and Rock resistances. And STAB U-Turn is awesome.

Also, Dark sounds pretty cool too. STAB pursuit is great when forcing switches.

The awesomeness of Dark/Bug would be nearly equal to that of Chuck Norris making a Cameo in the sequal to The Dark Knight.

 

[Infiltrator]

I have to agree with bug.

Steel has weaknesses to Ground and Fighting, argueably two of the most common types. The only advantages steel gives over bug are the Dragon and Rock resistances. And STAB U-Turn is awesome.

Also, Dark sounds pretty cool too.

Not only does Steel gives you resist on rock and dragon moves, but as well as Toxic and Toxic spikes. It also provides itself to resist STAB crunch and shadow ball. Ground other hand induces poison from toxic and toxic spikes.

 

[cyberzero]

I'll probably end up bandwagoning with Steel, but another possibility is Normal. The usually large movepool of support and access to a large variety of attacking moves, as well as neutrality to SR and only one weakness is a selling point.

The biggest advantage that a Normal Pokemon has is all of the neutralities. Usually, the less a move does, the better, but if it is neutral to so much, there is no exact switch in. The scouter won't attract a certain group of Pokemon, which leads to the fact that it can scout with variety.

Look at it this way - If you have a normal type out a Swampert for example, and your opponent knows that you run Grass Knot, it will most definitely switch out if it wants to live, but what to bring in? Something that resists Grass Knot? But then if you U-Turn, you can go to your appropriate counter. Later in the game, let's say that your opponent has Gyarados out, and knows that you have Thunderbolt, then you do it again. Through this strategy, you can reuse the element of surprise countless times because there is no distinct group of Pokemon (Bulky Waters, Fighters, Dragons, Phsyical Sweepers, Walls, etc) that can come in, giving you the chance to learn more about the opponents team.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Sorry about posting explanation in the voting thread, I didn't see this one.

I voted for Ghost, simply because I think going for Steel would encroach on Scizor's abilities as a scout, and for reasons I outline below. Yes, Scizor has neutrality to SR, but really it is a pretty damn perfect scout if you ask me. The fact that it is not weak to Fighting and Ground I feel lends itself to being a scout more than its lack of SR resistance. We can't go too far in this direction, and I feel it would be more educational and more enjoyable to tackle this from another angle.

The ghost typing gives plenty of opportunities to come in on its immunities and force the opponent to switch, scouting their team. It's neutrality to rock also means that the pokemon won't be taking massive amounts of damage on every switch in. The ghost type is very limited in the power of its STAB attacks, which we can use to our advantage in restricting CAP 7's abilities as a sweeper, and therefore focus more on its abilities as a scout. I'm going to quote something I posted in the Concept analysis thread:

Effective scouts in the current OU metagame:

Gengar
Now this seems like a strange choice, but imo it is actually a very effective scout. It can come in with ease on its immunities to Normal, Fighting and Ground, all of which are very common attacking types. This is important, as Gengar can't really take even neutral hits otherwise. With its great movepool, Gengar can threaten super effective hits on many opponents, and will generally force them out almost every time. Then Gengar can set up a substitute. Sub Gengar is an awesome scout because its speed lets it sub before many of the unpredictable pokemon that need scouting can attack. If Lucario hits you with a Shadow Ball, you know that its some sort of special attacker, whereas if it hits you with Crunch, you can be pretty sure your Gliscor won't have trouble taking it on. So by being able to switch in quite easily, threaten a lot of pokemon out, and being able to sub up before unpredictable pokemon can attack, sub Gengar works as a great scout. I think this shows that you don't actually need to have a move like U-turn or Baton Pass to scout out the opponent's team - Gengar does a good job without any of these.

Ghosts generally have big movepools (not poll jumping), meaning that hopefully we could have CAP 7 directly threaten a wide range of targets and force them to switch out. How can a Steel typed pokemon threaten in ways that Lucario and Scizor can't? Steel is a terrible attacking type, and needs something along the lines of a high powered priority attack or a massive attack stat to threaten in any way.

I'm quite vehemently opposed to having Steel as the scout's primary typing - been there, done that, topped the metagame.

 

[Not Scicky]

How would Steel lead to another Scizor? Scizor is neutral to SR, and the odds of the second typing being Bug is very high.

1. The first 2 suggestions were like, bug and steel, I'm sure that's all

2. I believe you mean "The odds of the second typing being bug is very low."

 

[Magmortified]

The only advantages steel gives over bug are the Dragon and Rock resistances.

Dragon, Rock, and Dark can be pretty big. Considering they're commonly used Choice attacks from Pokemon like Tyranitar and Salamence.

Bug, meanwhile, has to cope with the SR weakness which limits exactly how many times CAP7 will be able to do its job. Plus how effectively it can come into certain attacks.

And STAB U-Turn is awesome.

The primary purpose of U-Turn is the ability to know what you're switching something into. That's it. The damage is a side-bonus and shouldn't be the primary focus for something as important as the main-type.

 

[billymills]

I like steel, and bug as main types. (either, not both).

Steel gives resistance to SR, important on a pokemon switching in and out every few turns. Immunity to Toxic and many resistances help it move in and out easier. Also, it may be able to scout Salamence without dieing in a single turn, the only type able to do so without huge EV investment.

Bug is useful for its resistances to bug, ground and fighting. The SR weak means that type 2 will likely need to be SR resistant. Stab U-Turn could be useful, but it's not vital.

 

[Plus]

I want steel. It just has the best resistances in one type, and the scout would greatly benefit from that.

I don't see why people are bringing up "OMG IT'S GOING TO BE A SCIZOR." You can't determine that until we get the movepool and secondary typing done.

Steel is an obvious choice, and from many people's perspective, it is the best.

So vote steel!

 

[Deck Knight]

I'll probably end up bandwagoning with Steel, but another possibility is Normal. The usually large movepool of support and access to a large variety of attacking moves, as well as neutrality to SR and only one weakness is a selling point.

The biggest advantage that a Normal Pokemon has is all of the neutralities. Usually, the less a move does, the better, but if it is neutral to so much, there is no exact switch in. The scouter won't attract a certain group of Pokemon, which leads to the fact that it can scout with variety.

Look at it this way - If you have a normal type out a Swampert for example, and your opponent knows that you run Grass Knot, it will most definitely switch out if it wants to live, but what to bring in? Something that resists Grass Knot? But then if you U-Turn, you can go to your appropriate counter. Later in the game, let's say that your opponent has Gyarados out, and knows that you have Thunderbolt, then you do it again. Through this strategy, you can reuse the element of surprise countless times because there is no distinct group of Pokemon (Bulky Waters, Fighters, Dragons, Phsyical Sweepers, Walls, etc) that can come in, giving you the chance to learn more about the opponents team.

I think if people are too afraid of Steel, Normal is the way to go. It's neutral to everything but Ghost and Fighting, provides STAB Fakeout, and has unlimited opportunity to add support moves with little regard to type. Normal allows a lot of inherent movepool diversity over and above scouting support.

Granted it doesn't have any status immunities or other traits, but its value comes in the ability to be unpredictable.

 

[jagged_angel]

You say that Normal allows inherent movepool diversity, but that's not a given. Normals don't Automatically get huge movepools and we traditionally don't worrying about movepool/typing not meshing as long as the concept dictates it. Look at Fidgit for a perfect example. Concept requires utility moves, poke gets utility moves.

We don't need to consider how typing affects movepool because it is a given that this will get all necessary scouting moves.

I'm against Normal because of a lack of resists. You simply can't have that if you want to switch in and out lots.

 

[Solstice]

I think Steel is a good primary typing, but no way for Bug as a secondary typing. Covers a lot of the big threats that need scouting, and if it was something to handle fire/fighting attacks coming in, I think we're set. Having this thing Heatran or Infernape weak seems to be a terrible idea to me.

 

[foibles]

Vote bug. as Tennis already mentioned, STAB u-turn is very useful, especially against the now-OU latias, which can run many different sets effectively.

 

[Magmortified]

Vote bug. as Tennis already mentioned, STAB u-turn is very useful, especially against the now-OU latias, which can run many different sets effectively.

I repeat: The idea behind U-Turn is not its offensive value. It's because it can be used for scouting purposes that it's such a big player. Damage is a bonus - not a focus.

I generally want the typing to focus more on resistances over neutralities. So as to allow ourselves the ability to come in without needing high defensive stats.

 

[Pink]

I'm agreeing with Steel. The resistances granted from it help switch in to scout. Also, with the added bonus of resisting Toxic and Toxic Spikes and Sandstorm, and then taking little damage from Stealth Rocks, it's perfect for switches.

I don't support bug. With all the big hitters in OU play right now, Bug is hit hard by the majority. Also, Bug wouldn't really be ADDING anything IMO. We have Bugs that can act like Scouts in Ninjask, Yanmega and Scizor.

 

[jagged_angel]

Also, Bug wouldn't really be ADDING anything IMO. We have Bugs that can act like Scouts in Ninjask, Yanmega and Scizor.

Quite. This STAB U-Turn reasoning is really nonsense. You need a Choice Band or a massive attack to do real damage with U-Turn. Scizor only Just OHKOs TTar with Choice Banded U-Turn and that's off a huge 130 Attack. U-Turn only has 70 BP so damage is clearly not the main point of the move.

SR resistance is Much more important so clearly limiting us to Steel, Ground or Fighting. Steel is by far the best defensive type of the 3.

 

[Infiltrator]

Vote bug. as Tennis already mentioned, STAB u-turn is very useful, especially against the now-OU latias, which can run many different sets effectively.

Magmortified stated that CAP7 has passed for getting U-turn, but it won't be STAB, it will be used for scouting purposes.

 

[petrie911]

Ground seems very reasonable. Weaknesses aren't the best, but they can be fixed with a secondary type (/polljump). Immunity to Twave and resistance to Stealth Rock are both very good qualities in a pokemon. And I will admit, Steel makes me think too much of Scizor.