Not to mention the fact that the last time anyone seriously used Dusknoir or Spiritomb on a team seriously was pre-Revenankh. However, in theory they would work like Rotom-Appliance.
-
The moderators of this forum can be found in the CAP forum staff directory.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
CAP 6 CAP 6 - Part 9 - Counters Discussion
- Thread starter darkie
- Start date
- Status
Whaat zarator I don't understand.
What's changed between CASE 2 and CASE 3 for Zapdos to suddenly move slower?
And what's changed between CASE 3 and CASE 4 for the damage output to increase?
I THINK the diffrence between (1 and 3) and (2 and 4) is that the odd numbers are without stealth rock, the even numbers include stealth rock, but i agree, those are sloppy damage calcs
Doesn't Slowbro like to run around with Hidden Power Electric? If that's correct, he'll be eating this guy alive, resisting both STABs and has much higher Def than CAP6 has Spec. Def. Also, Slowbro can just switch in and Calm Mind right away, because I would expect CAP6 to be forced out. If he isn't switched, Slowbro can just wear it down until it dies, at which point Calm Mind comes into effect.
Also, Starmie, Zapdos, Celebi, etc.
Also, Starmie, Zapdos, Celebi, etc.
The only person who has ever used Slowbro on the server is Elevator_Music, and he doesn't even run HP Electric! Suicune is a better bet for that job. Heh he doesn't even use psychic. Really, everyone is trying way to hard to find counters, when obvious ones are staring it in the face.
Do we really need more counters than Celebi, Skarmory, and Cresselia. The rest of the top ten has much fewer, which is why we are doing this. There's also the fact that this is very easy to check, since it is slow (in comparison to the rest of the game) and won't have Technician priority moves. Almost any faster Flying or Psychic-type can switch in and threaten it at least once.
In cases 3 and 4 CAP6 carries a Choice Band, so there are probabilities that it will also run speed EVs. Since Bulky Zapdos sits at 245 Spd, CAP6 can invest enough speed to outrun, and since it has a Choice Band and so it is not meant as a tank, the Speed investment is much more probable than in cases 1 and 2. And in case 4 I forgot to mention SR down, my fault :-(. Anyway, the calcs should be correct, I used marriland damage calculator. I'll edit to correct the mistakes
I don't think Gliscor will ever counter CAP6, since STAB waterfall will probably beat him faster than he can do anything back. Also, if this is supposed to be in the spirit of the example set by real pokemon (I'm pretty sure the mission statement says something to that effect) then he should get some ice moves.
I agree too. It's already realatively easy to counter this, and the important is: how many things this can counter and not how many can counter this. but we get a problem: much counters mean that its easier to cover the (Insert TOP10-Poke-that-was-supposed-to-be-countered here), and then the metagame can remain centralized (zapdos and celebi, two of the best counters to this, can be both offensive and defensive, making the a great addition to almost any team)
But how many sure counters do we have? Zapdos as Zarator has proved. This thing will do shit to celebi (unless it cary X-Scissor/U-Turn/Bug Move). CAP6 wont hurt cresselia
( but i havent seen too much cresselias around there, because we got a superpopulation of scizors and TTar)
We got 3 sure counters, and 2 of them are pretty common. Everyone, to descentralize the metagame, will use CAP6. Wont we centralize even more, specially Zapdos, using a descentralizer? And if no one use the descentralizer, the metagame will remain the same.
Suicune walls this to hell and back, Thunderpunch or no. I suppose you can argue a stalemate since Unaware keeps it from using CM to any effect, but Roaring Suicune stops it cold.
Rotom (appliance) can capitalize on its electric weakness and is immune to fighting attacks. Can also Will-O-Wisp.
Tangrowth and Exeggutor counter any set without Ice Beam.
Weezing should be able to shut it down with Thunderbolt and Will-O-Wisp
Rotom (appliance) can capitalize on its electric weakness and is immune to fighting attacks. Can also Will-O-Wisp.
Tangrowth and Exeggutor counter any set without Ice Beam.
Weezing should be able to shut it down with Thunderbolt and Will-O-Wisp
From what I have seen, I'm considering the following pokemon as potential counters:
Zapdos
Celebi
Skarmory
Gyarados
Cresselia
Weezing
Slowbro
Starmie
Suicune
AppRotom
Exeggutor
I wish i could say more here, but I missed out on a lot in this part of CAP and all I can do at is support and agree with the points presented for these pokemon, as most are ones I had in mind. Overall they seem to be viable as counters or checks.
Zapdos
Celebi
Skarmory
Gyarados
Cresselia
Weezing
Slowbro
Starmie
Suicune
AppRotom
Exeggutor
I wish i could say more here, but I missed out on a lot in this part of CAP and all I can do at is support and agree with the points presented for these pokemon, as most are ones I had in mind. Overall they seem to be viable as counters or checks.
@pombo: predicting the overall metagame effects of any cap is largely impossible as there are really just too many complex functions at work. predicting the primary counters (what will check this) is easy, let's just concern ourselves with that
I'd be against giving this too much priority. mach punch and aqua jet are reasonably broken together for sure and max hp/attack lifeorb/2 priorities whatever to hurt celebi/starmie sets will probably dominate.
we should choose one (probably mach punch since it hurts the top 2) and allow stuff like speedy zapdos to
have a chance against this guy
so far i am:
for ice punch
for thunderpunch
for CC
for mach punch
against aqua jet
against fire punch
against stone edge
against U-turn
against x-scissor
undecided on Rock Slide
undecided on zen headbutt
undecided on force palm
I'd be against giving this too much priority. mach punch and aqua jet are reasonably broken together for sure and max hp/attack lifeorb/2 priorities whatever to hurt celebi/starmie sets will probably dominate.
we should choose one (probably mach punch since it hurts the top 2) and allow stuff like speedy zapdos to
have a chance against this guy
so far i am:
for ice punch
for thunderpunch
for CC
for mach punch
against aqua jet
against fire punch
against stone edge
against U-turn
against x-scissor
undecided on Rock Slide
undecided on zen headbutt
undecided on force palm
Yeah, but I'm against Ice Punch because I want Celebi to completely wall this poke.
I'm not sure I follow you there. Despite having stab on both of them, Mach Punch and Aqua Jet are too weak to do any real harm except towards the super frail. Most if not all of it's checks and counter are sturdy as all hell so I don't see how broken having both in one set seem. If they're an good example on how having both would cause brokeness I would like to see it.
In total agreement with you. Not sure else I can ask to this.
Same here though I'm indifference with Aqua Jet. Double priority sounds like fun and just not seeing the harm in having Mach Punch&Aqua Jet combo. I assume Fire Punch/any fire move not named HP Fire are there because of the risk of endangering Meta/Jirchai/Zong's job as potent checks?
CAP6
Type: Water / Fight
Ability: Unaware
Stats: 105 HP / 110 Atk / 95 Def / 70 SpA / 100 SpD / 75 Spe
Weak: Electric, Grass, Psychic, Flying
Resist: Water, Fire, Ice, Bug, Rock, Dark, Steel
Swampert
Type: Water/Ground
Ability: Torrent
Stats: 100 HP/110 Atk / 90 Def / 80 SpA / 90 SpD / 60 Spe
Weak: Grass
Resist: Fire, Poison, Rock, Steel
Immune: Electric
thats your relevance to swampert. CAP 6 is swampert with more weaknesses but way more relevant resistances and better stats in every single corner except special attack and attack (and attack is the same). and swampert, while an awesome poke, is nowhere near over centralizing. assuming this gets the standard water type movepool (including almost everything of value 'pert learns except stealth rock) i think this is going to be an awesome anti-meta poke.
Type: Water / Fight
Ability: Unaware
Stats: 105 HP / 110 Atk / 95 Def / 70 SpA / 100 SpD / 75 Spe
Weak: Electric, Grass, Psychic, Flying
Resist: Water, Fire, Ice, Bug, Rock, Dark, Steel
Swampert
Type: Water/Ground
Ability: Torrent
Stats: 100 HP/110 Atk / 90 Def / 80 SpA / 90 SpD / 60 Spe
Weak: Grass
Resist: Fire, Poison, Rock, Steel
Immune: Electric
thats your relevance to swampert. CAP 6 is swampert with more weaknesses but way more relevant resistances and better stats in every single corner except special attack and attack (and attack is the same). and swampert, while an awesome poke, is nowhere near over centralizing. assuming this gets the standard water type movepool (including almost everything of value 'pert learns except stealth rock) i think this is going to be an awesome anti-meta poke.
Gorm what's wrong with this 'beating Zapdos'? Apart from that fact that Stone Edge won't simply allow it to beat Zapdos, this has plenty of counters that are not in the top 5.
Even if SE did over 50% to Zapdos, as long as it is faster it can Pressure stall CAP6 out of PP.
Zapdos is in the top 5 so surely there's no reason to protect him by limiting CAP6's movepool.
Even if SE did over 50% to Zapdos, as long as it is faster it can Pressure stall CAP6 out of PP.
Zapdos is in the top 5 so surely there's no reason to protect him by limiting CAP6's movepool.
That's right. Zapdos is faster and loses the Flying type when roosting, so it will actually gain health back each round of Roost->Stone Edge, and between SE's accuracy and Pressure, CAP6 has nothing to do to Zapdos with it. The best CAP6 can hope for is a crit on the switch, only to switch out afterwards.
I can guess you are afraid of the: "It's super effective" words popping in your log, but Ice Punch 3HKOes Celebi, so CAP6 will still be walled by Celebi. It has been said before, and we all would be glad if, before posting, you could spend a bit of time reading the reasoning posted before yours.Yeah, but I'm against Ice Punch because I want Celebi to completely wall this poke.
- Status