Tennis, I would actually like to see this work on countering Zapdos, even if it loses the ability to counter something else (Blissey is like the only surefire counter to Zapdos in standard, and it just has amazing coverage with TBolt/HeatWave/HPGrass, so its hard to play around). So can you tell me any potential ways Water could at least not be owned by Zapdos? (Water/Dragon and Water/Electric look nice, but I want to hear your opinion.)
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CAP 6 CAP 6 - Part 2 - Main Type Discussion
- Thread starter darkie
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Water and fighting seems the most effective. Ground may work but Scylant and Ice Beam Blissey and the fact that Strategem can always back up onto Levitate seems a bit too unreliable.
How about Ice/Fighting? Takes out Zappy and Fidgit with Ice and takes out Strata, Ttar, Blissey, and Heatran with Fighting. Also, it resists both of Syclant's STABs. Give it a good Flying attack somehow, and it can cover Pyroak, Syclant, and Rev. HP Fire is always an option for Scizor.
Scizor's Bullet Punch could end up a problem, as could a Mach Punch user, but I still like the idea.
Scizor's Bullet Punch could end up a problem, as could a Mach Punch user, but I still like the idea.
Fighting will only work if it is specifically tailored around countering rev, so that's a no. All fighting pokemon are countered by Rev, except medicham and gallade (because they have super-effective stabs)
Ground seems great, for the reasons gorm posted initially. (Stab on t-tar and heatran, resistant to rock stab.)
Electric seems interesting because it only has 1 weakness (even if it is ground), but it doesn't hit anything super-effective.
While i'm assuming this pokemon will be relatively bulky (excuse the poll jumping) i do not want to see yet another bulky water.
Ground seems great, for the reasons gorm posted initially. (Stab on t-tar and heatran, resistant to rock stab.)
Electric seems interesting because it only has 1 weakness (even if it is ground), but it doesn't hit anything super-effective.
While i'm assuming this pokemon will be relatively bulky (excuse the poll jumping) i do not want to see yet another bulky water.
I think the direction we're going with this is misguided. Several of the top ten, including stratagem, ttar, syclant, heatran and scizor, can be ohko'd by a "silver bullet" non-stabbed move like heat wave or earth power. CAP6 doesn't need a type advantage with its stab move to revenge kill them, practically any scarfed pokemon could do that. However, to function as a counter, CAP6 needs to have a defensive advantage against stabs like bullet punch, stone edge and fire blast if it wants to switch in safely.
This is why we should worry about the defensive capabilities of the main typing, not what percentage of the top ten the typing can hurt.
That's why I'm going with water, probably the best all-round defensive typing in the game.
This is why we should worry about the defensive capabilities of the main typing, not what percentage of the top ten the typing can hurt.
That's why I'm going with water, probably the best all-round defensive typing in the game.
I agree with this right here.
As much as I like how water sounds defensively and all, one is that I really think we should have something that's not going to be troubled by Zapdos either, and two, more of a personal reason, we've got our share of waters that's decent enough (especially if you're going for bulky).
Water hits 4 for SE while if physical can take out Blissey with STAB Waterfall or Aqua Jet.
- Stratagem - Aqua Jet or Waterfall
- Revenankh - Problem
- Fidgit - Waterfall or Aqua Jet
- Tyranitar - Waterfall
- Zapdos - Problem
- Syclant - Problem
- Blissey - Waterfall
- Heatran - Aqua Jet or Waterfall
- Scizor - Problem
- Pyroak - Problem
This. Ice/Fighting is one of the most excellent typings in the game. I could write two pages on why CAP 6 should be Ice/Fight, but this is for the Primary typing, so I'll save them for later.
But with CAP6, I'd like to see a pokemon with less options, while still filling the decentralizing role. A lot of the CAP have, well, massive movepools.
wow i didn't expect a type that's WEAK to one of the top five and resists none of them would be doing so well =\
ifghting/ground woulda been alot more interesting imo. ground, dragon, grass could all do well as second typings. however ground water has redundant stab to an extent and an exploitalbe 4x weak. dragon water could work but we'd need to work hard not to make a "stronger kingdra". grass water is cool but i don't like the loss of fire resist/no rock resist.
water fire could be interesting but eq+sr+rock weaks
water steel is zapdos+rev fodder, water flying is taken out by almost everyone except fidgit, pure water is "so overdone", water poison doesnt have any immediate merits, water electric either really (save the potential to not be owned by zapdos, while in turn losing effectiveness vs tran/tar).
water rock doesn't really have useful stab and cant check zapdos/revenankh effectively, and doesnt resist ttar/stratagem's attacks.
psychic imo is a terrible type in this metagame any way you slice it unless you pair it with steel. ghost seems like more revenankh fodder. dark isn't incredibly useful stab/resist given the top 10 either.
id almost want to nominate bug as a viable second typing (takes out tar and resists revenankh) but sr weak/no zapdos resist+rock weak+loss of fire resist makes it lame.
tbh i was really hoping ground or fight would win this x__x
ice fight is really interesting actually but the fire weak+bp weak is annoying and ice stab isn't really incredible in this metagame.
ifghting/ground woulda been alot more interesting imo. ground, dragon, grass could all do well as second typings. however ground water has redundant stab to an extent and an exploitalbe 4x weak. dragon water could work but we'd need to work hard not to make a "stronger kingdra". grass water is cool but i don't like the loss of fire resist/no rock resist.
water fire could be interesting but eq+sr+rock weaks
water steel is zapdos+rev fodder, water flying is taken out by almost everyone except fidgit, pure water is "so overdone", water poison doesnt have any immediate merits, water electric either really (save the potential to not be owned by zapdos, while in turn losing effectiveness vs tran/tar).
water rock doesn't really have useful stab and cant check zapdos/revenankh effectively, and doesnt resist ttar/stratagem's attacks.
psychic imo is a terrible type in this metagame any way you slice it unless you pair it with steel. ghost seems like more revenankh fodder. dark isn't incredibly useful stab/resist given the top 10 either.
id almost want to nominate bug as a viable second typing (takes out tar and resists revenankh) but sr weak/no zapdos resist+rock weak+loss of fire resist makes it lame.
tbh i was really hoping ground or fight would win this x__x
ice fight is really interesting actually but the fire weak+bp weak is annoying and ice stab isn't really incredible in this metagame.
after pondering this + reading gorm's post i have come to a decision:
ground
i was contemplating water+bug myself but decided that water+bug isn't really relevant to the top ten as much, especially with its rock+electric weak and loss of fire resist.
i'm turned off by ice+fighting a bit because of fire weak
ground
i was contemplating water+bug myself but decided that water+bug isn't really relevant to the top ten as much, especially with its rock+electric weak and loss of fire resist.
i'm turned off by ice+fighting a bit because of fire weak
Heatproof can solve that problem, as can proirty attacks. Only two OU's resist that double stab and they are Tentacruel and Starmie. Electric solves that. Ice/Fight is awesome.
Mightn't that centralise a bit itself? I kind of envisage decentraliser as a bit more defensively-oriented myself, but obviously that's a limited preconception.
[I like Thick Fat heh and it could even make sense with Ice/Fight BUT that is getting WAY too far ahead =|]
Really what I was hoping for was another steel/fire type with levitate and all around good defenses, mainly special defense. It could have potentially effectively dealt with Syclant, Zapdos, Scizor (bar superpower), Heatran, Metagross, Skymin, Salamence, and Stratagem (and Fidget possibly).
But now that water is the likely main type, uhh, I dunno, bug could be nice to handle rev but, yea i dunno where you guys are going with this one either
But now that water is the likely main type, uhh, I dunno, bug could be nice to handle rev but, yea i dunno where you guys are going with this one either
Agreed, but its fun to think about it.
As one who thinks it's impossible to discuss the main typing without also discussing the secondary typing (because the secondary typing can so easily make or break a Pokemon), I will make my case assuming a couple of things.
I am advocating for the case of the Ground typing. Let's take a look at the top 10 individually and see what a tentative Ground typing will afford us.
Strategem- Renders his STAB quite useless. On Technician models you can hit back with your own STAB attacks which it is weak too, but on those same Strategems, you will need to watch out for Giga Drain. Ice Beam could be problematic too.
Revenankh- You may not do any super effective damage to it, but your Neutral typing affords you the ability to take hits from it (assuming we make this physically bulky).
Fidget- Resists his STAB Poison attacks, and hits back with SE damage.
Tyranitar- Resists his STAB attack, one thing of note here is that we should AVOID giving our Pokemon a Dark weak typing. Rogue Ice Beams could be problematic.
Zapdos- Immune to its STAB attack, and if we avoid giving this a secondary Ice weakness, or a Fire weakness, we shouldn't have too worry too much about HP Ice / Heat Wave.
Syclant- Oof, a huge Ice Weakness here, and it resists our STAB move to boot. This is one thing we might want to patch up with our secondary typing.
Blissey- As long as we give it some arbitrary amount of attack in order to 2HKO / 3HKO with Earthquake we should be good. Being immune to the common Thunder Wave is a nice feature.
Heatran- We're neutral to all of its moves, so assuming we have some workable Special Defense, we should be good. We could look into making the secondary typing one that helps us with this. Although HP Ice COULD make a dent in it.
Scizor- Neutral to all of its attacks, as well we are neutral to it... it's a toss up.
Pyroak- Ooof, huge weak point in that we are weak to its STAB move... not a lot we can do about this though.
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So we can potentially counter 8 / 10 threats... (not counting Pyroak or Syclant)
Now lets look at the potential secondary typings....
Normal- Adds nothing but the inability to counter Rev
Fire- We trade off our Rock resist for a Ground weakness and a neutrality to Grass and Ice and a Fire Resist... could be good.
Water- Gets rid of the Ice weakness, but excentuates our Grass one.
Electric- Ooof, this does nothing for us...
Grass- Like water, this could work, although this time we have an Ice 4X instead of a Grass 4X... plus we don't get a fire resist out of it.
Ice- Trade off our Rock resist for an Ice Neutrality and a fire/fight weak??? no thanks
Fight- I like this, we get a Dark resist, although we do get another Flying weak CAP
Poison- Let's not undermine Fidget.
Flying- We gain a Fight resist, but we make our Ice weakness worse... and we lose our Rock resist
Psychic- Gain a Fighting resist, but we also gain a whole host of new weaknesses
Bug- Fight resist, but also a Fire weak, and a Flying weak... do we need another one of those???
Rock- so overdone
Ghost- This could be cool, but we get that damn Dark weak again.
Dragon- Eh, i'm not seeing too much use for the added immunities... and the Ice weak is horrible
Dark- We get a Dark resist, but ugh... we get a damn Fight weak.
Steel- Dark resist again, and a buttload of other resists... we also get some nice neutralities to Grass and Ice.. but a nasty Fire weakness, maybe we could use the fire weak to keep it in check, don't know.
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So what I see, is that for viable double typings, we have Fire / Water / Grass / Fight / Steel
All of these have distinct advantages, and come with tradeoffs. I'd actually not mind a Ground / Steel type, but that's just me. Steel / Fight seem like the best options.
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But anyway, we can't have any of that until we have Ground, so VOTE GROUND
I am advocating for the case of the Ground typing. Let's take a look at the top 10 individually and see what a tentative Ground typing will afford us.
Strategem- Renders his STAB quite useless. On Technician models you can hit back with your own STAB attacks which it is weak too, but on those same Strategems, you will need to watch out for Giga Drain. Ice Beam could be problematic too.
Revenankh- You may not do any super effective damage to it, but your Neutral typing affords you the ability to take hits from it (assuming we make this physically bulky).
Fidget- Resists his STAB Poison attacks, and hits back with SE damage.
Tyranitar- Resists his STAB attack, one thing of note here is that we should AVOID giving our Pokemon a Dark weak typing. Rogue Ice Beams could be problematic.
Zapdos- Immune to its STAB attack, and if we avoid giving this a secondary Ice weakness, or a Fire weakness, we shouldn't have too worry too much about HP Ice / Heat Wave.
Syclant- Oof, a huge Ice Weakness here, and it resists our STAB move to boot. This is one thing we might want to patch up with our secondary typing.
Blissey- As long as we give it some arbitrary amount of attack in order to 2HKO / 3HKO with Earthquake we should be good. Being immune to the common Thunder Wave is a nice feature.
Heatran- We're neutral to all of its moves, so assuming we have some workable Special Defense, we should be good. We could look into making the secondary typing one that helps us with this. Although HP Ice COULD make a dent in it.
Scizor- Neutral to all of its attacks, as well we are neutral to it... it's a toss up.
Pyroak- Ooof, huge weak point in that we are weak to its STAB move... not a lot we can do about this though.
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So we can potentially counter 8 / 10 threats... (not counting Pyroak or Syclant)
Now lets look at the potential secondary typings....
Normal- Adds nothing but the inability to counter Rev
Fire- We trade off our Rock resist for a Ground weakness and a neutrality to Grass and Ice and a Fire Resist... could be good.
Water- Gets rid of the Ice weakness, but excentuates our Grass one.
Electric- Ooof, this does nothing for us...
Grass- Like water, this could work, although this time we have an Ice 4X instead of a Grass 4X... plus we don't get a fire resist out of it.
Ice- Trade off our Rock resist for an Ice Neutrality and a fire/fight weak??? no thanks
Fight- I like this, we get a Dark resist, although we do get another Flying weak CAP
Poison- Let's not undermine Fidget.
Flying- We gain a Fight resist, but we make our Ice weakness worse... and we lose our Rock resist
Psychic- Gain a Fighting resist, but we also gain a whole host of new weaknesses
Bug- Fight resist, but also a Fire weak, and a Flying weak... do we need another one of those???
Rock- so overdone
Ghost- This could be cool, but we get that damn Dark weak again.
Dragon- Eh, i'm not seeing too much use for the added immunities... and the Ice weak is horrible
Dark- We get a Dark resist, but ugh... we get a damn Fight weak.
Steel- Dark resist again, and a buttload of other resists... we also get some nice neutralities to Grass and Ice.. but a nasty Fire weakness, maybe we could use the fire weak to keep it in check, don't know.
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So what I see, is that for viable double typings, we have Fire / Water / Grass / Fight / Steel
All of these have distinct advantages, and come with tradeoffs. I'd actually not mind a Ground / Steel type, but that's just me. Steel / Fight seem like the best options.
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But anyway, we can't have any of that until we have Ground, so VOTE GROUND
Why? We're not trying to create a 100% perfect counter to the most-used Pokemon, we're trying to create a good check, something that helps against them. A Pokemon that's weak to dark could still be very useful in checking Tyranitar, since it can switch in safely on a Rock attack (or plenty of others) and probably outspeed, force out choice versions, or force Tar into a Dark attack so you can bring in an appropriate dark resist. Lucario is weak (and will likely be OHKOed by) Earthquake and Fire Blast, two very frequently seen moves on Tyranitar, but most people would still consider it a great check to Tyranitar.
edit: more on topic, the bigger relevance that this has to the discussion at hand is that weakness to X heavily used Pokemon's primary attacking type doesn't invalidate a type from being good in the slightest even if it's not neutral after secondary typing or whatever. This doesn't really affect the decision between the two big choices right now (Ground and Water), but it's something to consider.
I'm just musing, putting a dark weak, depending on the stats we give it, could ruin its ability to come in.
@ Fishin's edit:
I realize this, and actually would root for Water/Fight if/when Water wins. It's just that I feel the job of checking will be made easier with the Ground type, simply because even though you don't need resistances to all of the commonly used attacks, its easier to get more with Ground. And I feel having resistances will allow this to be more of an offensive check than a defensive one, which is what all Water-type's besides Gyarados and Kabutops (whose on the edge of OU) are (Kingdra is too varied and can pull of Sleep Talk sets).
I realize this, and actually would root for Water/Fight if/when Water wins. It's just that I feel the job of checking will be made easier with the Ground type, simply because even though you don't need resistances to all of the commonly used attacks, its easier to get more with Ground. And I feel having resistances will allow this to be more of an offensive check than a defensive one, which is what all Water-type's besides Gyarados and Kabutops (whose on the edge of OU) are (Kingdra is too varied and can pull of Sleep Talk sets).
I thought that being a check would mean, first of all, managing to switch into them relatively safely.
I doubt a Water type would be able to do that, unless the second type nullifies the Grass and Electric weaknesses. But maybe I'm wrong.
I'll look into my own common movesets text file first before committing to a typing. Then I'll submit my nomination.
However, it's the DEFENSIVE type we need to look into first, people, not the attacking type.
I doubt a Water type would be able to do that, unless the second type nullifies the Grass and Electric weaknesses. But maybe I'm wrong.
I'll look into my own common movesets text file first before committing to a typing. Then I'll submit my nomination.
However, it's the DEFENSIVE type we need to look into first, people, not the attacking type.
Water/Fighting is pretty amazing for countering much of the top ten.
Strategem- Sets not packing Giga Drain are walled cold, and both STABs are SE against it.
Revenankh- Once again, neutral typing from Water allows this Pokemon to potentially do well against Revenankh.
Fidget- No resistances to mention, but STAB Water puts the hurt on it.
Tyranitar- No weaknesses from the standard Tyranitar's set, and STAB Fighting and STAB Water both threaten Tyranitar immensely. Dark and Rock resistances also help, though random Thunderbolts from Boah variants can hurt.
Zapdos- Ouch. STAB Thunderbolt can be an issue. One major counter to this typing.
Syclant- Owned. Water/Fighting resists both Bug and Ice, and the rest of Syclant's coverage is neutral. Neutral coverage means that this Pokemon may require secondary coverage attacks to hurt Syclant, but it's not very bulky, meaning even neutral STAB can hurt.
Blissey- Fighting STAB always helps to beat Blissey.
Heatran- Resists Fire, which helps a lot. Heatran is weak to both STABs, which makes this Pokemon a good counter to Heatran.
Scizor- Resists Bullet Punch and X-Scissor, and is neutral to Brick Break. Pretty much the best paper counter to Scizor ever.
Pyroak- The other problem for this typing. Grass is SE on this typing, so the Pokemon will need some other coverage to beat it.
Water/Fighting is pretty much the best typing that exists for beating the main threats of the metagame, and while it does exist in Pokemon (Poliwrath), a better movepool and stat spread could make this a winner.
That said, I'm voting for Water. I'm loath to do so, but there's a reason that bulky Water-types are so common in OU.
Strategem- Sets not packing Giga Drain are walled cold, and both STABs are SE against it.
Revenankh- Once again, neutral typing from Water allows this Pokemon to potentially do well against Revenankh.
Fidget- No resistances to mention, but STAB Water puts the hurt on it.
Tyranitar- No weaknesses from the standard Tyranitar's set, and STAB Fighting and STAB Water both threaten Tyranitar immensely. Dark and Rock resistances also help, though random Thunderbolts from Boah variants can hurt.
Zapdos- Ouch. STAB Thunderbolt can be an issue. One major counter to this typing.
Syclant- Owned. Water/Fighting resists both Bug and Ice, and the rest of Syclant's coverage is neutral. Neutral coverage means that this Pokemon may require secondary coverage attacks to hurt Syclant, but it's not very bulky, meaning even neutral STAB can hurt.
Blissey- Fighting STAB always helps to beat Blissey.
Heatran- Resists Fire, which helps a lot. Heatran is weak to both STABs, which makes this Pokemon a good counter to Heatran.
Scizor- Resists Bullet Punch and X-Scissor, and is neutral to Brick Break. Pretty much the best paper counter to Scizor ever.
Pyroak- The other problem for this typing. Grass is SE on this typing, so the Pokemon will need some other coverage to beat it.
Water/Fighting is pretty much the best typing that exists for beating the main threats of the metagame, and while it does exist in Pokemon (Poliwrath), a better movepool and stat spread could make this a winner.
That said, I'm voting for Water. I'm loath to do so, but there's a reason that bulky Water-types are so common in OU.
water fight makes the most sense to me too given the current situation. im troubled by zapdos, who id rather we make a priority since its seemingly so necessary in cap to help beat rev/suport ttars weaks, but i guess you cant win em all.
i'd way rather ground win though =)
darkie will there be a runoff poll?
i'd way rather ground win though =)
darkie will there be a runoff poll?
Voted for Water, hopefully as many have said it won't turn into another Water/Ground, I was thinking of a pure Water but I don't want another Suicune...maybe there'll be interesting secondary type suggestions
I thought of an interesting ability for the CaP if it does turn out to be Water, but I'll save it for the appropriate poll/discussion :D
I thought of an interesting ability for the CaP if it does turn out to be Water, but I'll save it for the appropriate poll/discussion :D
Water is the best option in my opinion. It has a good array of resistances, only 2 weaknesses and a good range of neutrality. There are also several types which can complement well him.
I dont want to get offtopic, but I want just to say that, for example, making him a Dragon doesnt make him a stronger or weaker Kingdra. Is Bronzong a stronger or weaker Metagross? Dont make such comparisons when you think to a secondary type.
I dont want to get offtopic, but I want just to say that, for example, making him a Dragon doesnt make him a stronger or weaker Kingdra. Is Bronzong a stronger or weaker Metagross? Dont make such comparisons when you think to a secondary type.
Steel might be pretty good.
Resists Stratagem's stab, Tyranitar's Stabs, Syclant Stabs, Scizor's Bullet Punch, and Blissey.
Resists Stratagem's stab, Tyranitar's Stabs, Syclant Stabs, Scizor's Bullet Punch, and Blissey.
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