CAP 5 CAP 5 - Part 9 (Ability Poll 3)

[tennisace]

Break the Mold-Click here to see the full post.

Name: Break the Mold

Description:
An OU viable pokemon that goes completely against the stereotypes of its typing.

Type: Rock

Offensive/Defensive Bias: Offensive 20-40
Physical/Special Bias: Special -20 and lower
Base Stat Rating: Very Good
Base Stats:90/60/65/120/70/130 Speed Last

Art By yourDeadGrandad

K top two were tied. Please please please don't let it tie again, or I may cry. Anyway, normal two option clicky poll, and don't post if you don't plan on discussing.

 

[darkie]

Continuing the flavor discussion, reposting this:

Explain to me why Rhyperior gets Blizzard, Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Ice Beam, Icy Wind, Shock Wave, Rain Dance, Thunder, and Thunderbolt, and then you can say that "flavor" really matters.

I voted Levitate.

 

[Flounder]

Levitate.

It's better than technician in that it removes a weakness instead of adding somewhat unneeded power to an already great 120 Special Attack stat.

 

[Legacy Raider]

DJD:

You seem to forget the extended discussion of the hand rotational speed required for Fidgit to successfully provide a Tailwind for his teammates.

... Or the endless discussion of the length of horn required to justify Megahorn on Syclant.

... Or the amount of air present in the average Egyptian tomb, while attempting to justify Air Lock on Revenankh.

... Or the exact visual requirements to distinguish a "lizard" from a "dragon" while arguing whether Pyroak should get Dragon Dance.


I could keep going. My point is that we obsess over this crap WAY TOO MUCH. And we're not going to do it any more.

I thought the discussion on flavour was over.

 

[tennisace]

Continuing the flavor discussion, reposting this:

Explain to me why Rhyperior gets Blizzard, Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Ice Beam, Icy Wind, Shock Wave, Rain Dance, Thunder, and Thunderbolt, and then you can say that "flavor" really matters.

I thought you said Tyranitar for a second, and don't forget Surf! Yeah, flavor doesn't matter at all. What matters in the movepool and abilities is whether or not it can competitively make use of said moves. I see no competitive value in Icy Wind and Discharge for example, because they do almost nothing for coverage (Granted, Suicune and Vaporeon get hit harder, but they beat you anyway.) Also, their added affect, lowering the speed through Paralysis or a straight drop, does nothing for a Pokemon that is only outsped by two eligible Pokemon, one of which is UU. I don't care that they "don't fit anyway", or that "Rockmon doesn't look like it can use it". Does Wooper look like it can use Focus Punch? gg, as Doug said.

 

[Tsukikage]

I voted Technician. People saying that Ancient Power will be overpowered, who says it will get Ancient Power. I wouldn't mind this having to rely on Power Gem or HP Rock for STAB. I hate to bring this up, but we gave Syclant more Physical than Special Attack in order to abuse Megahorn, and it didn't even get Megahorn. I don't see why we can't just not give our newest creation Ancient Power. Unless I'm mistaken, we can create a move anyway.

 

[the_artic_one]

If there's anything we should be discussing right now, it's whether or Technician Ancientpower is overpowered.

I don't want to waste my vote on Technician only to have everyone decide that it's overpowered with AP afterward, leaving our pokemon with a competitively useless ability.

 

[hinode]

Continuing the flavor discussion, reposting this:

Explain to me why Rhyperior gets Blizzard, Fire Blast, Flamethrower, Ice Beam, Icy Wind, Shock Wave, Rain Dance, Thunder, and Thunderbolt, and then you can say that "flavor" really matters.

I voted Levitate.

In support of this, Aggron can learn Water Pulse/Ice Beam/Flamethrower/Thunderbolt/Solarbeam/Surf, Rampardos gets Ice Beam/Flamethrower/Thunderbolt/Dragon Pulse/Surf, and Tyranitar has already been mentioned in this thread. In summary, there's enough precedence that Rock types can get any of the elemental beams that we want to give it.

We just need to decide which ones are most useful competitively, and avoid the rest to avoid overstuffing the move list ala Syclant.

Also, voted Levitate again. I'm fine with Technician in addition as a second ability, but I want at least one defensive ability.

EDIT: Ice hits Ground types that resist Rock, as far as type coverage goes. I would've pushed hard for Ice Beam if Garchomp wasn't banned, and it'd still be useful to have in the movepool. Electric won't contribute much though, I agree.

 

[1059860]

Trust me, Tsukikage. I can almost guarentee that a movepool with AncientPower will win if Technician wins this. Aren't people sick and tired of haxes yet? Plus, what's the point of it getting a new move (by means of it being special offensive Rock) if Ancient Power wins? Base 135 STAB AND 1/10 hax. I would rather just give it a move like Aura Sphere that doesn't even get miss haxes and play straight on. Plus, that rock thing looks like it moves by levitating, or else I don't see how can that move at 130 speed. So Levitate goes for me.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Woah, slow down 1059860. "Base 135 STAB" is not true. It will be a base 90 STAB move.

 

[Tsukikage]

If Technician wins this vote, then I could easily see having a discussion on whether Ancient Power is overpowered, ultimately landing it in the Attack Moves Poll. If enough of us deem it overpowered and vote no, then it would be illegal to have Ancient Power in the movepool. Really, really sorry if that is considered poll jumping, but I was just explaining why Ancient Power is not a gaurantee in the movepool even if Technician wins.

 

[darkie]

Ancient Power would be 135 with STAB. There's no need to get pedantic lol.

 

[tennisace]

Ancient Power would be 135 with STAB. There's no need to get pedantic lol.

I find this conversation quite shallow and pedantic! (I've always wanted to use that line =D) Anyway, can we keep this on topic? The topic is which ability should we choose, and why.

 

[Deck Knight]

Trust me, Tsukikage. I can almost guarentee that a movepool with AncientPower will win if Technician wins this. Aren't people sick and tired of haxes yet? Plus, what's the point of it getting a new move (by means of it being special offensive Rock) if Ancient Power wins? Base 135 STAB AND 1/10 hax. I would rather just give it a move like Aura Sphere that doesn't even get miss haxes and play straight on. Plus, that rock thing looks like it moves by levitating, or else I don't see how can that move at 130 speed. So Levitate goes for me.

I don't see how Pidgeot only moves at 91 Speed if it can fly at Mach 2. It's slower than Miltank. Yes, I suppose I hide behind canon too often, but honestly, unless we intend to give this fire moves, Bronzong just goes in for the lol, or Roarlax hazes it away, or CBTar eats its lunch. Even with an AP boost this isn't without counters, and Ancientpower can only be used 8 times. if LS Blissey switches in, you'll basically need to get a boost or else use a slot for Stone Edge and hope you get a boosted attack to address it.

Shuca Berry Metagross could also cause some havoc. I'm honestly not that worried. That and Bullet Punch Scizor is everywhere now. We might have to disbar Overheat so as not to wipe out all the checks, but it could work.

 

[tennisace]

I don't see how Pidgeot only moves at 91 Speed if it can fly at Mach 2. It's slower than Miltank. Yes, I suppose I hide behind canon too often, but honestly, unless we intend to give this fire moves, Bronzong just goes in for the lol, or Roarlax hazes it away, or CBTar eats its lunch. Even with an AP boost this isn't without counters, and Ancientpower can only be used 8 times. if LS Blissey switches in, you'll basically need to get a boost or else use a slot for Stone Edge and hope you get a boosted attack to address it.

Shuca Berry Metagross could also cause some havoc. I'm honestly not that worried. That and Bullet Punch Scizor is everywhere now. We might have to disbar Overheat so as not to wipe out all the checks, but it could work.

LS Blissey? Like I said before, there are barely any Blissey, and I can assure you that almost none of them use Light Screen at all. I don't like the idea of any Fire move bar HP Fire, since it would get boosted by Technician if it gets it. Really, why remove counters? Whats so bad about having Bronzong, Scizor, Lucario and Metagross laugh in its face? It doesn't need a fire move to survive at all. You could even run Sub/CM/Earth Power/Power Gem and STILL beat Bronzong. Prove to me that this needs a Fire move, an Ice move, or any non-stab special move bar Earth Power.

 

[PapaCAP]

I once had a huge essay typed for this, but I decided not to post it because instead, I can summarize it in this simple question:

If Cadalbolg's Easter Island Pokemon won the art thread, would you levitate-voters EVEN HAVE CONSIDERED levitate?

If not, you are not truely thinking about this competetively.

EDIT: let me rephrase this...

If levitate was brought up way back in the ability discussion thread, would you have still been as keen on the idea as you are now? Do you even think it would have made it this far without the art? Yes, I understand that levitate really does have some awesome advantages, but do you honestly believe the vote would be pretty much tied right now if the pokemon didnt really look like it was levitating? I'm not trying to criticize your votes, I'm just wondering/trying to get people to think.

 

[darkie]

Sure. Levitate is a good ability no matter what the Pokémon looks like.

 

[Lightning Storm]

Man, this is close.

I voted for Levitate, because I really want it to have a new move...

Am I right in assuming that if it does not get technician, it will get a new move?

 

[tennisace]

I once had a huge essay typed for this, but I decided not to post it because instead, I can summarize it in this simple question:

If Cadalbolg's Easter Island Pokemon won the art thread, would you levitate-voters STILL be voting levitate?

If not, you are not truely thinking about this competetively.

Yes I would, since art obviously has nothing to do with the competitivness of this Pokemon. I am STILL dead against Technician, and would be even if we had this as our art. Art matters NOTHING people, and will never matter. Art only serves to make this more "complete". If we had no art for this project at all, would all you Technician voters vote the same? Maybe, maybe not. Don't vote on art. Vote on what's better for the metagame.

 

[Kira]

Yes I would, since art obviously has nothing to do with the competitivness of this Pokemon. I am STILL dead against Technician, and would be even if we had this as our art. Art matters NOTHING people, and will never matter. Art only serves to make this more "complete". If we had no art for this project at all, would all you Technician voters vote the same? Maybe, maybe not. Don't vote on art. Vote on what's better for the metagame.

You might, but a lot of people seem to be saying "this thing looks like it can levitate." They don't give any information as to why it is the best competitive choice. They simply state how well levitate fits it.

 

[PapaCAP]

Yes I would, since art obviously has nothing to do with the competitivness of this Pokemon. I am STILL dead against Technician, and would be even if we had this as our art. Art matters NOTHING people, and will never matter. Art only serves to make this more "complete". If we had no art for this project at all, would all you Technician voters vote the same? Maybe, maybe not. Don't vote on art. Vote on what's better for the metagame.

That's the point I'm trying to get accross. You and darkie, among others, probably would still vote levitate and that's not surprising. My advice for the people that Kira/gorm Mentioned is: you should vote for the ability as if it were Cadalbolg's art, or really as if it had no art or Misingno's sprite. Don't let the fact that it "looks like it's levitating" cloud your judgment. I'm not trying to diss levitate, it really is a great choice either way...

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

I don't like the idea of any Fire move bar HP Fire, since it would get boosted by Technician if it gets it.

Technician'd HP Fire = Good, but anything else = bad? Why Tech HP Fire when you could just add an actual fire move into it's movepool and be done with it.

Really, why remove counters?

A better question is how many counters does a Pokemon need to have? Is they're suppose to be a definite number to how many counters something need to have in order to be balance, or do you like adding like dozens of creatures without reason?

Whats so bad about having Bronzong, Scizor, Lucario and Metagross laugh in its face? It doesn't need a fire move to survive at all.

Luke, Scizor, and Meta pretty much scare this guy shitless enough already. Zong do too, but he's a floating toilet. A fire move would only helps if this beast could predict a Bullet Puncher coming because if he doesn't, it's screwed. Also CB pursuit take out huge chuck of your HP, I should know...I actually did damage calcs >_>

You could even run Sub/CM/Earth Power/Power Gem and STILL beat Bronzong.

Can you prove that that set can beat a Bronzong one on one? Seriously...I actually want to know how it would beat.

 

[jagged_angel]

LS Blissey? Like I said before, there are barely any Blissey, and I can assure you that almost none of them use Light Screen at all. I don't like the idea of any Fire move bar HP Fire, since it would get boosted by Technician if it gets it. Really, why remove counters? Whats so bad about having Bronzong, Scizor, Lucario and Metagross laugh in its face? It doesn't need a fire move to survive at all. You could even run Sub/CM/Earth Power/Power Gem and STILL beat Bronzong. Prove to me that this needs a Fire move, an Ice move, or any non-stab special move bar Earth Power.

Err, how is that on topic discussion?! The topic is which ability we should choose and why.

Lightning Storm, No you can not assume that if it does not get Technician, it will get a new move. The movepool including possible new moves and whether or not to include Ancientpower (etc etc) will be decided in future threads.

I'm supporting Technician over Levitate as even if it does not get Ancientpower, base 89/90 Hidden Powers would be a major offensive boon to this pokemon.

Levitate is not useless but seeing as how our Rockmon will still be weak to Fighting, Grass, Steel and Water, eliminating one weakness isn't anything special.

 

[Hyra]

Voting Technician because I have to vote for something. I really don't have a preference, since we can get whatever we need through TMs or Hidden Power. Yay for yDG justifying beams with his art (to counter all the flavor arguments against them). and TTar, Rhyperior, and Aggron, although those are weirdos.

basically, this guy will have a good movepool no matter what ability it has.

 

[hinode]

LS Blissey? Like I said before, there are barely any Blissey, and I can assure you that almost none of them use Light Screen at all. I don't like the idea of any Fire move bar HP Fire, since it would get boosted by Technician if it gets it. Really, why remove counters? Whats so bad about having Bronzong, Scizor, Lucario and Metagross laugh in its face? It doesn't need a fire move to survive at all. You could even run Sub/CM/Earth Power/Power Gem and STILL beat Bronzong. Prove to me that this needs a Fire move, an Ice move, or any non-stab special move bar Earth Power.

It's just theorymon, but I have serious reservations about this thing's potential to actually sweep teams. Blissey is pretty much impervious, weaknesses to Aqua Jet/Mach Punch/Bullet Punch and a low def make it easy to revenge (especially for the now-common Scizor), and Revenankh is going to be using this as setup fodder all day long pending a significant nerf to its special defense.

To compensate, I voted for Levitate to give it as many switch-in opportunities as it can get, as I think it'll need them. The Spikes/Toxic Spikes immunities don't hurt, either. I'll also be voting for a good number of attack options so it can't be stopped so easily by things like Bronzong, on top of all the above I mentioned - I don't think it needs any more checks on it.