CAP 5 CAP 5 - Part 10a (Attack Moves Discussion)

[zarator]

Skyshroud, remember one thing: Every time CAP5 attacks with Life Orb, the number of eligible revenge killers increases a lot. Just like the analysis of fearsome LO users such as Garchomp report also the different Spatk/Atk values needed to OHKO, we'll very well have to report similar values for CAP5, this time not longer referring to Ice Beam but instead to Aqua Jet/Bullet Punch/Mach Punch.

More importantly, this thing is not Garchomp. He cant attack with ease without being revenge killed. You should not worry about CAP5 refueling from, say, 60% to 100% because this means probably that he knocked out 4/6 of your pokes while you were not able to do anything about it, so it's GG anyway.

Ofc, you should say: but some of its counters perform best outstalling him! Yes, but you'll see that most of them either have Pressure or is named Blissey/Bronzong. The former easily drains all PP from Ancientpower or Focus Blast and so on, so, once he cant cast longer its main attack you are quite comfortable in knocking him out. In the latter scenario, a well timed Thunderwave or Hypnosis or Gyro Ball (or Earthquake lol) will solve all your problem as you'll have make him just a dead weight - or dead, simply :-)

 

[Goodbar]

None of the pokemon that you are using for comparison are as worthless defensively as our Rockmon. Heatran is a defensive powerhouse with one of the best defensive stat lines in the game, AND a boatload of resistances and immunities. Clefable has very good defensive stats, only one weakness, and has one of the best defensive abilities in the game. Yes, Gengar has poor defensive stats -- but Gengar has 3 immunities, a couple of 4x resistances, and almost no common weaknesses. Gengar is much sturdier than his stat line indicates.

Our Rockmon has mediocre overall defensive stats, coupled with arguably the worst defensive typing in the game. Unlike all the pokemon you mention, CAP5 will be threatened by almost every pokemon on every team. That is an ENORMOUS burden to overcome. I agree that giving this pokemon "everything in the book" offensively may seem outrageous at first. But if you think about it, we probably have to do something extreme on the offensive side of the equation -- since this pokemon has very little going for it defensively.

I definately would not call rockmon's stats mediocre, I mean they're comparable to starmie's, plus he can boost his spdef in sandstream, bringing his special defense a lot higher than clefable's while his defense is already not far behind. Rock typing has a resistance to fire and with levitate a full immunity, and decent resists in normal and flying. While it has defensively poor typing, I think it has pretty decent offensive resists. Along with his amazing offensive stats, I think he's pretty worthy of being a threat. His biggest counter, Blissey, can be revenge killed somewhat easily in the form of dugtrio, and if you're a good player, you can play around it.
Being threatened by every pokemon is also not that big of a deal. A lot of sweepers have a hard time switching in, like azelf and infernape, but that doesn't stop them from being useful. Even Shaymin-S isn't easy to get in, but that thing is pretty damn good. Like rockmon it dies to a priority move, and is walled by blissey unless it's weakened or gets great luck. But working around blissey, its pretty scary to deal with. I've used it btw, so I know what I'm talking about :P. While shaymin has a lot of hax associated with it, I think it'd still be very useful without the side effects of air slash and seed flare. Rockmon I believe has the same potential, and like shaymin I suggested a base 120 rock move, while slightly limiting its offensive options.

 

[Skyshroud]

Skyshroud, remember one thing: Every time CAP5 attacks with Life Orb, the number of eligible revenge killers increases a lot. Just like the analysis of fearsome LO users such as Garchomp report also the different Spatk/Atk values needed to OHKO, we'll very well have to report similar values for CAP5, this time not longer referring to Ice Beam but instead to Aqua Jet/Bullet Punch/Mach Punch.

Point taken, but I still think that it doesn't need any free kills. I was referring to physical grounds in particular. If you use good prediction to switch in Hippowdown or Swampert, they could scare Rockmon off. If Rockmon has Giga Drain and an LO though, these are no longer viable moves.

I was trying to emphasize that Giga Drain is removing skill from using Rockmon, as you are getting rid of viable switch-ins. (albeit not counters, more like checks) I think we have seen that when a pokemon is not only powerful, but works on auto-pilot, it is a bad thing.

 

[zarator]

GoodBar, ok, Rock is not Ice defensively, but Rockmon is by no means Starmie. ok, their defensive prowess may be the same but you forgot one thing: Starmie has room for defensive EV investment, CAP5 not. As i said before, Starmie is not a pure sweeper. He's a damn good rapid spinner, as well as a good counter for many pokemon. In order to accomplish these jobs, he does not need 4HP/252SPark/252Spe. Many Starmies actually run 160HP/132SPatk/216Spd, which make all the difference in the world.

Moreover, you called Azelf and Infernape. Well, Azelf's rise in popularity as a suicide lead is just a testament to his inability to sweep as cleanly as maybe you'd expected him to. And Infernape can be much more threatening than you'd expect: differently from Azelf, his NP set is backed up by an excellent Close Combat, which covers the NP sweeping purpose by annihilating many bulky waters, blissey and special walls in general.

Rockmon is nothing of this. He will probably not get NP (If it would get it then i would be the first to scream broken) and not even CM, because most counters would be screwed by a too marked special bulkiness. He will not get SR and screens, either, because he would turn to be another suicide lead, which exemplify well how much difficulties he encounters as a sweeper. Why Aerodactyl, Azelf, Deoxys-S had turned into suicide leads? Because they were not enough good at sweeping, that's why (With all the respect to your avatar^^)

@Skyshroud: Dont fall into consider Rockmon as Garchomp. Even if Physical Grounds cannot longer threat him, Bulky Waters can indeed, as well as can Blissey, Bronzong and even Scarf Dugtrio (the main reason why i dont want to give CAP5 Vacuum wave). i think Rockmon will need to be played like Rayquaza in Ubers: you study as long as possible the opponent's team without make Rayquaza appear, identify possible counters, lure and kill them even with a sacrifice and, when the times come, issue Rayquaza to destroy the foe. Even with Giga Drain, CAP5 need a lot of skill. It is not like Revenankh, who just need a bit of setup fodder to sweep much like Suicune in RSE. Rockmon is a little surprise to capitalize your momentum, and must be played with this thought in mind

 

[beej]

Oh god tennis, I seriously hope you were kidding when you said that Technician Giga Drain would be broken on Rockmon. Really, I think that making an offensive CAP, even this CAP, broken is a genuine fear, but c'mon. Of all the scary things this could get, like Hypnosis and Calm Mind, you're campaigning against Giga Drain and Mold Breaker? I, once again, will cite Electivire and Heracross. Electivire is basically hitting everything in the entire game neutral, and he can run sets that hit many of his counters super effective. Yet he's dropping in use every month, because he's WALLED. Heracross is a Pokemon that is basically ONLY "countered' by Nidoqueen and Gliscor. It's not even close to broken.

If anything, I think that having SEVERAL solid counters is not going to prevent this CAP from being broken, but instead kill it. Almost every valid OU offensive Pokemon has maybe one or two genuine counters. Gengar can Focus Punch or Explode on Blissey, it can 2HKO Snorlax with Focus Blast. Shadow Ball is doing a ridiculously large amount to Cress. Heracross is hitting Flying-types like Zapdos and Gyarados with Stone Edge, while Night Slashing Dusknoirs. Salamence is 2HKOing almost everything after a DD with Life Orb, and now he has Aqua Tail to defeat Hippowdon. Infernape is killing almost everything slower than it after a Nasty Plot. Life Orb DD Gyarados can 2HKO Celebi with Ice Fang or OHKO most Zapdos with Stone Edge.

By the way, did you notice that last one? Gyarados can't 2HKO Celebi with Ice Fang AND OHKO most Zapdos with Stone Edge, I said "or". "Or" is the key word here. Deoxys-E and Azelf, two Pokemon that I think can easily be compared to Rockmon, have the moves to beat almost every Pokemon in the game, and yet they're still only OU (Deoxys is a suspect because of DSD, not having good coverage) mainly because you simply can't run all of these moves at the same time, and you're GOING to be walled by something. They also have better defensive typing and, dun dun duuun, Azelf actually DOES have Nasty Plot. Gengar also has 3 immunities, Hypnosis, Trick and the ability to run mixed sets that ruin Blissey and friends. Do you really think that when you have these things running around in the metagame, Rockmon is going to be broken because of GIGA DRAIN?

Let's pretend that we trim its movepool of Fire, Grass, Fighting and Explosion for Blissey, while not giving it any boosts. Bronzong laughs in your face. Swampert laughs in your face. Blissey laughs in your face. Snorlax laughs in your face. And the list goes on. Is that really the fate that we want for Rockmon? Scizor is a Pokemon that has been incredibly popular lately, but it's clearly not Uber and yet the amount of Pokemon that do this under almost every circumstance are actually VERY limited, despite the fact that the Swords Dancer is often running only Steel and Bug-type moves.

It's not hard to make things broken, and Syclant has proven that very well. But c'mon, we're acting like fools here. The idea that making this Pokemon a Gyarados/Salamence caliber OU is somehow misguided and horrible is kinda dumb, quite frankly. The second that they become Uber, we'll talk.

 

[Goodbar]

GoodBar, ok, Rock is not Ice defensively, but Rockmon is by no means Starmie. ok, their defensive prowess may be the same but you forgot one thing: Starmie has room for defensive EV investment, CAP5 not. As i said before, Starmie is not a pure sweeper. He's a damn good rapid spinner, as well as a good counter for many pokemon. In order to accomplish these jobs, he does not need 4HP/252SPark/252Spe. Many Starmies actually run 160HP/132SPatk/216Spd, which make all the difference in the world.

Moreover, you called Azelf and Infernape. Well, Azelf's rise in popularity as a suicide lead is just a testament to his inability to sweep as cleanly as maybe you'd expected him to. And Infernape can be much more threatening than you'd expect: differently from Azelf, his NP set is backed up by an excellent Close Combat, which covers the NP sweeping purpose by annihilating many bulky waters, blissey and special walls in general.

Rockmon is nothing of this. He will probably not get NP (If it would get it then i would be the first to scream broken) and not even CM, because most counters would be screwed by a too marked special bulkiness. He will not get SR and screens, either, because he would turn to be another suicide lead, which exemplify well how much difficulties he encounters as a sweeper. Why Aerodactyl, Azelf, Deoxys-S had turned into suicide leads? Because they were not enough good at sweeping, that's why (With all the respect to your avatar^^)

Ok well, Azelf and etc. didn't "turn into" suicide leads because they weren't useful as sweepers, it's because they were useful as suicide leads >_>, nobody's feeling bad for them lol. While I agree that Azelf's sweeping potential isn't as good as it was hyped to be (Deoxys is still an awesome revenge killer), it's not terrible by all means. Infernape's inclusion of close combat does not help him switch into anything, which was my point. And it does not have as many resists as starmie, but my point was that it wasn't a glass cannon by any means. It could very well make room for some defensive EVs though, with his impressive spdef in sandstream, who knows, depends on the moveset we give him I guess. And where you call him out on so many things, you go on and say he'd be broken with nasty plot, when we don't even know what he's getting yet. I'm confident a fairly decent but not entire special movepool will be sufficient for rockmon.

 

[zarator]

@Beej: I agree with you that CAP5 is going to have too many counters, i agree that Giga Drain would not only be far from broken, but also, as DJD underlined better than me, strategically interesting. I simply applaud you for the Gyara argument, because it's pretty much my philosophy. But trust me: nothing, with more than 115 base speed, has received both a set up move AND a good movepool. Yes, Weavile can SD, but its attacks have average AP and metagross walk all over him. The point is, nothing this side of raikou and azelf in terms of speed tier should set up. We still need revenge killing. Both NP and CM simplify in favor of CAP5 too many checks and eliminate too many counters. To put things in perspective: Blissey is 2HKOed by NP Focus Blast.

@Goodbar: No, there's no room for defensive investment. If you drop in speed, a whole bunch of revenge killers rise, as i said when tennis suggested modest as the main nature for this poke. If you drop in Spatk, a whole bunch of counters rise. Just to make an example: with the same EV spread as Starmie, suddendly Poliwrath and Vileplume becomes viable counters, and these are only examples. Everytime, through lowering Spatk, you lose the 2HKO in favor of 3HKO on a pokemon who can cripple you with a status, you have acquired a new counter. CAP5 has already many counters, and the only thing which prevent him from having more is its blistering speed, its good Special Attack and an almost perfect Type Coverage. He will not be able to run choice items because of the risk of being forced out by lack of PP being too huge more often than not. Many pokemon also still overpower its 120 Spatk on the defensive, much more than you could think. Even if hit supereffective, many pokes endure very well these hits. If you cannot at least fall back on type coverage to prevent being walled, well... good luck to survive in the cruel OU world...

 

[Goodbar]

@Goodbar: No, there's no room for defensive investment. If you drop in speed, a whole bunch of revenge killers rise, as i said when tennis suggested modest as the main nature for this poke. If you drop in Spatk, a whole bunch of counters rise. Just to make an example: with the same EV spread as Starmie, suddendly Poliwrath and Vileplume becomes viable counters, and these are only examples. Everytime, through lowering Spatk, you lose the 2HKO in favor of 3HKO on a pokemon who can cripple you with a status, you have acquired a new counter. CAP5 has already many counters, and the only thing which prevent him from having more is its blistering speed, its good Special Attack and an almost perfect Type Coverage. He will not be able to run choice items because of the risk of being forced out by lack of PP being too huge more often than not. Many pokemon also still overpower its 120 Spatk on the defensive, much more than you could think. Even if hit supereffective, many pokes endure very well these hits. If you cannot at least fall back on type coverage to prevent being walled, well... good luck to survive in the cruel OU world...

"How do you know", you're already making quite a few bold statements for a non created pokemon. How do you know losing spatk for spdef is going to hurt its potential, how do you know significant XHKO's will turn into X+1HKO's? I think this thing may make an amazing scarfer, being able to outspeed anything, including scarfmins. I think losing some of the tons of spatk at your hands for some spdef could help it counter more things in being able to safely switch in on many neutral spatks. Deoxys is a prime example of something easily walled but very useful because it scores a lot of SE hits on things even without a complete special movepool. He's very much a late game sweeper, which is what rockmon will largely be, but maybe more. Again hard to theorymon with something that doesn't exist yet ?_?

 

[zarator]

How do i know, you ask? Simple, by running a lot - and i mean a LOT - of damage calculations. I would not simply believe that, without Psychic or hidden power Flying/Psychic, Machamp could counter CAP5, but it is true, indeed. 120 spattack is not that much, if you run some calculations. I know this is still theorymon, but from experience we know that a pokemon who can offer setup fodder to a wide variety to a pokemon cant be good. Or at best cant sweep. And it will be evident that, without Shadow Ball or similar super effective attacks, Revenankh will set up on this with ease. And he's not the only one. with Syclant gone, i can see also NP Slowking somewhat viable.

What i mean, ultimately, is: before thinking, supposing something, run these damage calculations, and you may be surprised. And, just to answer your proposal, what can do a Spdef investment when most counters simply TWave him? I can easily see paralysis becoming a significant roblem for CAP5.

EDIT: Ah, and if you even think about a Choice Scarf set, rember that you will have almost forcely have to resort to Power Gem for PP matters, so you'll find your power cut dramatically down to the point even Heracross can switch in without fearing a 2HKO...

 

[Skyshroud]

@Skyshroud: Dont fall into consider Rockmon as Garchomp. Even if Physical Grounds cannot longer threat him, Bulky Waters can indeed, as well as can Blissey, Bronzong and even Scarf Dugtrio (the main reason why i dont want to give CAP5 Vacuum wave). i think Rockmon will need to be played like Rayquaza in Ubers: you study as long as possible the opponent's team without make Rayquaza appear, identify possible counters, lure and kill them even with a sacrifice and, when the times come, issue Rayquaza to destroy the foe. Even with Giga Drain, CAP5 need a lot of skill. It is not like Revenankh, who just need a bit of setup fodder to sweep much like Suicune in RSE. Rockmon is a little surprise to capitalize your momentum, and must be played with this thought in mind

The problem is this is all in theory. I'm was just trying to flag something that might be of concern. We really don't know just how good/bad Rockmon is because it isn't finished yet. Also, the point of CAP is to increase the pool of viable OU pokemon correct? As we do so, counters become less and less effective. Not every team is going to be carrying a counter. This is why checks are important. You don't need a counter to win, but you need to at least have a viable play.

I think the real question is if we really NEED Giga Drain. If it is broken, (not necessarily saying it is) then we just made Rockmon too good. If it is weak like many are projecting it to be, then what's the point? It seems to me like it will either be too good, or not good at all. That is just adding a lot of risk with no (or very little) reward.

 

[Deck Knight]

A more in-depth look:

Elemental Attacks:

OKely Dokely:

Thunderbolt/Thunder Electric hits 2 things SE, Water and Flying. Rock already hits flying SE, and waters are only notorious rock counters because until recently, most Rocks were also part Ground. Or they are waters named Swampert, which is part Ground.

Debatable:

Charge Beam If only because it provides a fairly reliable +1 Boost to the strongest attack stat of a top-speed pokemon. Not quite as great as say Metagross Meteor Mash, but still up there in terms of useful moves.

Ice Beam/Blizzard Hits ground types hard, and even with Levitate, most Grounds could phaze it out if it got a stat boost. Justification for Ice Beam is solid though, with Lunatone and Rampardos getting it (and TTar/Rhyp/Aggron, but I tend to discount crazy movepool pokemon).

No:

Fire Moves. Unlike most of the popular rocks whose greatest threat was Water, thus making fire moves a gamble, This has the greatest fears for Steel and/or Ground types, who can eat its AP breathlessly and either destroy it or Phaze it out, or in technicians case, also destroy it. Particular counters that would otherwise threaten it without the powerful fire moves are Bronzong and Steelix.

Other types:

Grass:

To date, no Rock types other than Cradily can learn Grass Knot or Energy Ball. Kabutops has Giga Drain on account of his claws/fluid draining bit.

Mud Shot Could work.

Shadow Ball/Dark Pulse more options.

Tutors:

Air Cutter provides something nique and different and would be viable on a technician set.

Vacuum Wave is a QA attack that can hit a few things well, but not most of the Steels that switch in because of their secondary types. Fairly balanced.

Earth Power/Ancientpower/Mud Slap/Fury Cutter/Snore: Self-explanatory.

Knock Off: Could be interesting.

Physical moves:

These fit flavorwise, most are TMs.

Aerial Ace
Metal Claw
Rock Tomb/Rock Slide/Stone Edge
Earthquake
X-Scissor
Rock Smash
Brick Break
Dig

 

[tennisace]

Guys stop posting lists of moves.

Also, I really don't feel like making a new thread today, so it will close tomorrow and I'll do everything then.

 

[zarator]

@Skyshroud: I support Giga Drain simply because it add a startegical element into using this with Sandstorm on the field. Most bulky waters who would normally counter him in normal conditions, such as Milotic and Suicune, will be royally screwed in sandstorm, as they no longer can OHKO while Giga Drain refund CAP5's health. Outside of SS, most counters and checks either OHKO or cripple it, so Giga Drain is kinda useless and surely not overpowered. How can u heal if u get killed in 1 hit?

@Deck Knight: As i said before, if u run some damage calculations, you'll see that Milotic and Suicune are only 3HKOed at best by CAP5 even if it has TBolt - only Thunder could seal the 2HKO, but i see the low accuracy being more an issue than not -, so, if it would not get fire moves, allowing then many steels to switch in with impunity - Most notably Bronzong and Scizor - you have too many counters/checks to think this thing can be as viable as classic OU sweepers such as Gengar and Lucario

To all who think we can make a too wide movepool: ok, with a large movepool he could be able to threaten a lot of things, but it cant run AncientPower, Earth Power, Flamethrower, Psychic, Shadow Ball, Hidden Power of choice, Thunderbolt and Giga Drain all together. Their presence in the movepool serves only to countercheck standard checks, just like the ability of Explode is a huge bonus for Gengar even if actually he's carrying Explosion, because, as long as e does not reveal his whole movepool, most people will be wary of this possibility. Its simply a way to encourage strategical thought and mindgame istead of let this CAP prey of bigger and uglier sweepers such as Revenankh.

 

[DougJustDoug]

I guess people have already forgotten....

Everyone, please stop posting lists of moves.

Aside from stupid noob comments, or pure flavor arguments -- the primary reason movepool discussions turn into a shitstorm, is because people post move lists. Cut it out.

Pick out a move or two that you feel strongly about, and then make an intelligent post about why it should be included or excluded. A long list of moves with "Yes" or "No" beside it, is not conducive to discussion at all. Even if you include a brief thought next to each move, it still spams up the thread. Quality > quantity. Add something meaningful to the discussion on a few things, rather than throwing in your two cents on every move on the list.

From this point on, I'll be moderating posts that are essentially lists of moves. Tennis, please update the OP to make it clearer that lists of moves are not allowed. It already mentions something to that effect, but obviously it is not clear enough.

 

[Goodbar]

How do i know, you ask? Simple, by running a lot - and i mean a LOT - of damage calculations. I would not simply believe that, without Psychic or hidden power Flying/Psychic, Machamp could counter CAP5, but it is true, indeed. 120 spattack is not that much, if you run some calculations. I know this is still theorymon, but from experience we know that a pokemon who can offer setup fodder to a wide variety to a pokemon cant be good. Or at best cant sweep. And it will be evident that, without Shadow Ball or similar super effective attacks, Revenankh will set up on this with ease. And he's not the only one. with Syclant gone, i can see also NP Slowking somewhat viable.

What i mean, ultimately, is: before thinking, supposing something, run these damage calculations, and you may be surprised. And, just to answer your proposal, what can do a Spdef investment when most counters simply TWave him? I can easily see paralysis becoming a significant roblem for CAP5.

EDIT: Ah, and if you even think about a Choice Scarf set, rember that you will have almost forcely have to resort to Power Gem for PP matters, so you'll find your power cut dramatically down to the point even Heracross can switch in without fearing a 2HKO...

Paralysis is a significant problem for any fast pokemon >_>, I hate when people use that as an argument, it was used for Deoxys-S and it was weak. I don't think you've run enough calculations between item and EVs differences to know exactly what happens when it reduces its spatk. And you don't know how effective an exchange can be until you've played with it. And it certainly shouldn't be something that provides set up opportunities for a lot of pokemon, being as fast and probably having a diverse movepool, maybe something like suicune, who if you cant deal with your team is in bad shape =/. And anything with high speed and spatk and diverse movepool should make a good scarfer, and you dont need high PP attacks for scarfers, they're meant to revenge kill, how many scarftrans do you see running flamethrower over fire blast?

Also what do people think about a base 120 80% accurate rock special move? Could be ok?

 

[tennisace]

Also what do people think about a base 120 80% accurate rock special move? Could be ok?

Fine with me Mr. G.

 

[petrie911]

Fire moves--Flamethrower/Fire Blast/Overheat are better than any technician-boosted fire move we can give it. But what if, instead of those moves, we give it Eruption, Lava Plume, and maybe Magma Storm (flavor justification in that Rock types would be more volcanic, but that doesn't really matter). Tech HP Fire beats Lava Plume in power, although 30% burn is still attractive. Magma Storm and Eruption are sort of counterparts to FB/OH. More power, less reliability. Heat Wave is something to consider, too, as it has the same expected power as Tech HP Fire and is a Pt tutor.

I posted this before, but what do people think of this? It doesn't really put too much strain on Levitate versions, as Heat Wave vs Flamethrower isn't much of a difference, and Lava Plume is always a useful option. Eruption is an option that isn't really used effectively. Scarflosion is the closest you'll get, and Stealth Rock puts a damper on that. I suppose this is somewhat of a flavor argument, but everything in OU uses FT/FB/OH as its Fire move. Break the Mold is still the concept of the Pokemon, after all.

 

[Bull of Heaven]

I still think that most of you are exaggerating the importance of Fire attacks. The only Steel pokemon that this guy doesn't have another answer to is Bronzong. The Steel type, remember, is weak to Ground (Earth Power) and Fighting (Focus Blast, assuming Rockmon gets it). Steelix, which Deck Knight mentioned above, is weak to both. The only notable Steel pokemon that aren't weak to one or both of these types, and aren't Bronzong, are Skarmory, Scizor and Forretress. Skarm is weak to Thunderbolt, and none of these three are known for walling special attacks. Allowing one Steel pokemon to counter this guy is, in my opinion, not a bad idea. For one thing, it should silence any critics who think that Rockmon is broken, or at least allow the rest of us to be completely confident that they are wrong.

 

[Deck Knight]

I still think that most of you are exaggerating the importance of Fire attacks. The only Steel pokemon that this guy doesn't have another answer to is Bronzong. The Steel type, remember, is weak to Ground (Earth Power) and Fighting (Focus Blast, assuming Rockmon gets it). Steelix, which Deck Knight mentioned above, is weak to both. The only notable Steel pokemon that aren't weak to one or both of these types, and aren't Bronzong, are Skarmory, Scizor and Forretress. Skarm is weak to Thunderbolt, and none of these three are known for walling special attacks. Allowing one Steel pokemon to counter this guy is, in my opinion, not a bad idea. For one thing, it should silence any critics who think that Rockmon is broken, or at least allow the rest of us to be completely confident that they are wrong.

It doesn't need to be a wall to be a counter, or at least a revenge killer. Flamethrower (and especially FB and Overheat) removes EVERY Steel pokemon as a counter or a revenge killer (Bar Bullet Punch Scizor/Metagross), including Metagross and Jirachi, both of which would survive an unboosted Earth Power, but probably not Fire Blast or Overheat. powerful Fire moves remove Forretress and Steelix as revenge killers Bronzong could probably stand up to a fire attack once, and thats it.

Now what about Technician HP Fire? Weaker than FT, lower PP, usues up your HP slot and no burn chance. Fire moves are a bad idea on this, and I don't entirely support Focus Blast either, but because of sketchy accuracy, I'll put it in a debatable column.

Actually I think it was a while back where X-Act proved that Fire Blast was pound for pound the best Non-STAB special move in OU.

 

[beej]

@Beej: I agree with you that CAP5 is going to have too many counters, i agree that Giga Drain would not only be far from broken, but also, as DJD underlined better than me, strategically interesting. I simply applaud you for the Gyara argument, because it's pretty much my philosophy. But trust me: nothing, with more than 115 base speed, has received both a set up move AND a good movepool. Yes, Weavile can SD, but its attacks have average AP and metagross walk all over him. The point is, nothing this side of raikou and azelf in terms of speed tier should set up. We still need revenge killing. Both NP and CM simplify in favor of CAP5 too many checks and eliminate too many counters. To put things in perspective: Blissey is 2HKOed by NP Focus Blast.

This post made me smile a bit.

Admittedly for this very reason I'm against a +2 boosting move like NP. I think that Calm Mind may or may not be acceptable. Notably Alakazam has CM and has 135 SA, 120 Speed. Mind you, as you've noted, he doesn't have a very good movepool. However that doesn't actually balance it out, he's BL and not used very often at all. I think that if this is Alakazam-esque with a good movepool it may very well be OU without going overboard.

One important thing to remember is that Garchomp, the best example of a just-over-the-line Pokemon we can compare this to, doesn't just have no counters: it has no counters with ONE SET. Like I said before, if there's too much use of the word "or" in your arguments about Rockmon, it becomes increasingly unrealistic because there's only 4 moves per set. I also believe that most people are going to have priorities, so some moves will simply be more useful in general than others. For example, Azelf usually doesn't run Thunderbolt or Shadow Ball. Deoxys-E doesn't often run Grass Knot or HP Fire. Gengar doesn't usually run Psychic or Energy Ball.

I know it's very possible for this to be broken if we're utterly careless, but I'm really shocked at how trigger-happy some of us are with using the word "broken", a main reason perhaps being that we recently banned Garchomp, and this is troubling. I remember how we all thought that Charge Beam would be broken on Pyroak and, as it turns out, he's a fairly average Pokemon. I don't know about any of you, but I don't want Rockmon to be an "average" Pokemon.

 

[latinoheat]

When has Zam never had a good movepool

 

[Tpaz]

I think:

Dragon Pulse: Definite. Good way to beat Garchomp, Flygon (should the situation arise), and other OU Dragons that don't care about Rock moves. Plus, it gets great neutral coverage.

Elemental Beams: All 'cept Thunderbolt. Flamethrower is necessary, otherwise Skarm and Bronzong wall this set.

Focus Blast: You need this, otherwise Blissey will laugh in your face shouting, "STALLWAR!".

Energy Ball: I don't see why not.

Earth Power: Another needed one. It goes hand in hand like TTar with Quake and Stone Edge. Plus, don't forget massive coverage.

 

[Vividsketch]

Originally Posted by Fat Vividsketch View Post

Notable moves I think are NOT viable in ROCKMON's move pool:

Base 95+ Elemental moves - No. Includes, Ice beam, Thunderbolt, Flamethower, Surf
Otherwise the value of Technician moves, including Hidden Power, is lost.

But crippling it's Non-Technician movepool just to make Technician more usable on purpose seem wrong. Tech's value shouldn't be placed ahead of his other ability now, which is just as important as this one. We should try to find a balance between Tech and non-Tech movepool and possibly shake that dream Tech user idea out of our heads. I'm worried the only reason you're saying no to anything with 95+ BP is because you want Technician to be #1. D:

I'm not suggesting we "cripple" it's Non-Technician move pool at all. in fact in the very same post you quoted me from i suggested this:

Originally Posted by Fat Vividsketch
Replacement Elemental Moves (=<90 base) - Yes. Includes, Hidden power, Discharge, Lava Plume, Energy Ball, Shadow Ball, Dark Pulse, Signal Beam, Air Slash, Extrasensory, Flash Cannon, Sludge Bomb, Dragon Pulse, Tri Attack.

These attack are more then adequate in base power, but don't overshadow Technician's usefulness.

Originally Posted by Fat Vividsketch View Post

Focus Blast - No. Type coverage implications (use Hidden Power instead)

You're against this move but not against the use of Thunder, Blizzard, Fire Blast, etc? Slightly confused by this, but anyway Focus Blast hit or miss account warrant the belief of non-brokenness from me.

Yes I understand why this seems contradictory. That why i gave it special mention. to me it's a matter of Type bias. I feel that a Fighting move at base 120 is to abusable, even with the accuracy loss. I just see what it already does for Gengar and it makes me uneasy. Personal opinion here.

Originally Posted by Fat Vividsketch View Post

Grass Knot- No. Under Technician it'll never drop bellow base 70. And usually between base 80-120. (use Giga Drain, Energy Ball, Hidden power, instead)

Wouldn't having a BP of 80-120 most of the time be a good thing? Why worry about not having a Technician boost on a variable damage move when it's just as stong as a Tech-whatever.

Isn't a consistent base power of 80-90 enough?? Grass Knot pushes it more often then not to 100-120 every time with out ANY draw backs. To me it's just too much of a good thing.

Originally Posted by Fat Vividsketch View Post

Technician abuse Moves - Yes. Include. Hidden Power, Shock Wave, Icy Wind, Water Pulse, Giga Drain, Air cutter.

Removed moves that aren't going to be in it's movepool. Giga Drain and Icy Wind won't be any help to it in the long run but it wouldn't hurt to have them in it's movepool anyway *shrug*

Giga drain has since had a lot of attention in this thread, so I won't go there. Technicianed Icy Wind (base 82), will become much more useful how ever in the absence of Ice Beam or Hidden Power. So I disagree with you there.

 

[1059860]

I think:

Dragon Pulse: Definite. Good way to beat Garchomp, Flygon (should the situation arise), and other OU Dragons that don't care about Rock moves. Plus, it gets great neutral coverage.

Elemental Beams: All 'cept Thunderbolt. Flamethrower is necessary, otherwise Skarm and Bronzong wall this set.

Focus Blast: You need this, otherwise Blissey will laugh in your face shouting, "STALLWAR!".

Energy Ball: I don't see why not.

Earth Power: Another needed one. It goes hand in hand like TTar with Quake and Stone Edge. Plus, don't forget massive coverage.

If a Pokemon can't be walled, then it may be considered overpowered. Not all is necessary. Focus Blast and Energy Ball I vote NO.

DRAGONBREATH should replace Dragon Pulse.

 

[Frosty]

I will jump on the "no flamethrower" bandwagon here.

Some meanlingness numbers: The combination of fire-ground-rock hit around 25 OU pokes SE (x2 or x4). To have a parameter, Electivire (which is the OU example of type coverage) hit 29 of them SE with 4 moves on its standard set. This means that with the proper hidden power (and a possible 90 BP attached with Technician), Rockmon can actually surpass Electivire. For example, if you include Hidden Power Ghost, you will hit around 31 OU pokes SE, which is a really nice number. Also, unlike Electivire, who needs motor drive to activate in other to "sweep", rockmon can sweep right away with its 130 base speed AND it actually resists physical hits better (and special as well if you include sandstorm). This may not seem much, snce Electrivire is decreasing in usage, but with only with 3 moves, it has the potential to surpass the offensive power of said poke (if you consider the speed, better defenses and the abilties), giving you an extra slot to add whatever you want, possibly improving even more its power.

I am probably playing too much theorymon here, but I find the idea of having a poke with 3 moves being able to deal damage like an other OU poke with 4 moves scary. I'd much rather keep fire as hidden power, so you will have to give up some coverage to give it a fire attack, and maybe a more effective ability to have a powerful attack.


I'd not mind Thunderbolt and Ice Beam and *insert grass move*, TBH, but flamethrower/fire blast/overheat....ehh....it is kinda risky. But that is me.