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CAP 4 CAP 4 - Support Moves Discussion
- Thread starter Sunday
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Sorry for the lack of foresight, Rapid Spin, Knock Off and such should be included in this discussion.
I can't think of any more Support moves that happen to do damage at the moment but I'm sure I've missed something, just exercise a bit of common sence at the moment.
For now I'd like to concerntrate on the discussion of more debatable moves such as Wish, Heal Bell, Yawn, 50% recovery and Tailwind. They seem the most debatable at the moment.
I can't think of any more Support moves that happen to do damage at the moment but I'm sure I've missed something, just exercise a bit of common sence at the moment.
For now I'd like to concerntrate on the discussion of more debatable moves such as Wish, Heal Bell, Yawn, 50% recovery and Tailwind. They seem the most debatable at the moment.
Well, Wish fits with it's concept better, and it shouldn't get Wish and an instant 50% heal move. Tailwind... I personally don't think this should get it, but others seem to really want it. Heal Bell and Aromatherapy don't really make too much sense on this, and Pyroak can already Aromatherapy if need be.
Where's that example someone made of how many competitive moves something has? Keep in mind, this thing can't get every support move, and still get attack moves. There's already like, 10+ competitive support moves being sported by this thing and we haven't even decided on questionable moves or attacks? Something's gonna have to give.
Where's that example someone made of how many competitive moves something has? Keep in mind, this thing can't get every support move, and still get attack moves. There's already like, 10+ competitive support moves being sported by this thing and we haven't even decided on questionable moves or attacks? Something's gonna have to give.
Should Get:
U-Turn
Taunt
Haze
Gravity
Trick Room
Knock Off
Rapid Spin
Encore
Whirlwind (see Hariyama)
Tailwind
Screens + Safeguard
Weathers
Stealth Rock
Block
Helping Hand
Debatable:
Spikes
Toxic Spikes
Trick
Yawn
Disable
Wish
Destiny Bond
No:
Thunder Wave
Will-O-Wisp
Powders
Baton Pass
+2 Boosters of any kind
Heal Bell
Aromatherapy
Notes:
Screens, U-Turn, and Taunt are TMs, so you shouldn't have to worry about stuffing them in a level-up list. What's left are Knock Off, Rapid Spin, Haze, Gravity, Encore, Block, and Tailwind.
I'm going to assume Bug/Fairy groups for this.
Shuckle can give it Encore, Knock Off, and Helping Hand
Clefairy can give it Encore, Gravity and Wish.
Jigglypuff can give it Encore, Gravity, and Disable. (Go Go Struggle Set >_>)
Togetic can give it Yawn, Wish, and Encore
Froslass can give it Destiny Bond, Block, Spikes, and Disable.
Drapion can give it Knock Off, Whirlwind, and Toxic Spikes.
This leaves a lot out in left field, I suppose, but I'm pretty sure only Haze, Block, Rapid Spin, and Tailwind are left, and the rest can be put into Egg Moves.
U-Turn
Taunt
Haze
Gravity
Trick Room
Knock Off
Rapid Spin
Encore
Whirlwind (see Hariyama)
Tailwind
Screens + Safeguard
Weathers
Stealth Rock
Block
Helping Hand
Debatable:
Spikes
Toxic Spikes
Trick
Yawn
Disable
Wish
Destiny Bond
No:
Thunder Wave
Will-O-Wisp
Powders
Baton Pass
+2 Boosters of any kind
Heal Bell
Aromatherapy
Notes:
Screens, U-Turn, and Taunt are TMs, so you shouldn't have to worry about stuffing them in a level-up list. What's left are Knock Off, Rapid Spin, Haze, Gravity, Encore, Block, and Tailwind.
I'm going to assume Bug/Fairy groups for this.
Shuckle can give it Encore, Knock Off, and Helping Hand
Clefairy can give it Encore, Gravity and Wish.
Jigglypuff can give it Encore, Gravity, and Disable. (Go Go Struggle Set >_>)
Togetic can give it Yawn, Wish, and Encore
Froslass can give it Destiny Bond, Block, Spikes, and Disable.
Drapion can give it Knock Off, Whirlwind, and Toxic Spikes.
This leaves a lot out in left field, I suppose, but I'm pretty sure only Haze, Block, Rapid Spin, and Tailwind are left, and the rest can be put into Egg Moves.
To me, in order to know which move have to go I personally think of which attack move I want on this thing. Other than stabbed moves, I can see it being able to use Ice Beam, Energy Ball, and Flamethrower via shooting it from it's fingers (Yusuke style) or from those dots in the palm of his hands. Shock Wave from clapping and that's about it. From that little brainstorm of moves I would say:
Trick Room
Gravity
Rapid Spin
Screens
U-Turn
Encore
Toxic Spikes/Spike
Wish/ Recover (One or another, but for the love of God at least get one ;-;)
Taunt
Would be enough. Of them, six of them are TMs leaving some room for some attack moves.
Trick Room
Gravity
Rapid Spin
Screens
U-Turn
Encore
Toxic Spikes/Spike
Wish/ Recover (One or another, but for the love of God at least get one ;-;)
Taunt
Would be enough. Of them, six of them are TMs leaving some room for some attack moves.
This souldn't get any status moves I don't think. Not even yawn. Instead, I suggest whirlwind. It actually makes more sense (this doesn't have a mouth). Let's stick with just the spikes (no stealth rock) and tailwind doesn't make any sense. Gravity and trick room are stretches but could still work.
Should Get:
Trick Room
Tailwind
Safeguard
Knock Off
Encore
Substitute
Taunt
Torment
Gravity
U-Turn
Toxic Spikes
Stealth Rock
Spikes
Bind
Toxic
Agility
Maybe:
Glare
Should not get:
Sleep inducing moves
Healing moves, other than Giga-Drain & Rest
Counter
Mirror Coat
Ingrain
Baton Pass
Destiny Bond
Momento
Roar
Trick Room
Tailwind
Safeguard
Knock Off
Encore
Substitute
Taunt
Torment
Gravity
U-Turn
Toxic Spikes
Stealth Rock
Spikes
Bind
Toxic
Agility
Maybe:
Glare
Should not get:
Sleep inducing moves
Healing moves, other than Giga-Drain & Rest
Counter
Mirror Coat
Ingrain
Baton Pass
Destiny Bond
Momento
Roar
This thread isn't really getting us anywhere. It's basically just the posting of lists that people will tl;dr.
For the people saying this shouldn't get Roar because it doesn't have a mouth, where are you getting that from. In some of Cartoons' drawings of DDL it actually does have a mouth. People didn't just put them on the sprites because they looked cool.
Though, I'm against giving it a phazing move anyways. Since a ton of people seem intent on giving it all the Spikes, let's just throw Forretress in a ditch and give this guy a phazing move as well.
My problem with Block+Encore is that one free turn is broken. And I suppose if you suspect he's running Block, good for you. But if it turns out he isn't and sets up who kows what on you, that's your fault I guess. We're giving this guy a lot of options. You won't always know what this guy is running. So if you get it wrong and have a pokemon Block+Encore'd, keep that in mind.
I'd rather we didn't give this guy any status moves, as it doesn't really look like any other than Poison Gas fit him, which is a big waste imo.
Tailwind.... no. For one, the concept of a 5 turn tailwind troubles me immensly. For two, it doesn't fit him flavor-wise at all.
Gravity, Wish, and Heal Block are kinda stretching it for me. I've never seen the use in Heal Block anyways (unless it stops Lefties gain). Wish I suppose we could give it since I don't see it getting any other Recovery move. Gravity isn't so much of a stretch if fat-asses like Blissey get it.
Baton Pass defintiely no. Yes, let's just make an already unpredictable pokemon even more unpredictable... I like that idea.
Anything else is meh w/e to me.
For the people saying this shouldn't get Roar because it doesn't have a mouth, where are you getting that from. In some of Cartoons' drawings of DDL it actually does have a mouth. People didn't just put them on the sprites because they looked cool.
Though, I'm against giving it a phazing move anyways. Since a ton of people seem intent on giving it all the Spikes, let's just throw Forretress in a ditch and give this guy a phazing move as well.
My problem with Block+Encore is that one free turn is broken. And I suppose if you suspect he's running Block, good for you. But if it turns out he isn't and sets up who kows what on you, that's your fault I guess. We're giving this guy a lot of options. You won't always know what this guy is running. So if you get it wrong and have a pokemon Block+Encore'd, keep that in mind.
I'd rather we didn't give this guy any status moves, as it doesn't really look like any other than Poison Gas fit him, which is a big waste imo.
Tailwind.... no. For one, the concept of a 5 turn tailwind troubles me immensly. For two, it doesn't fit him flavor-wise at all.
Gravity, Wish, and Heal Block are kinda stretching it for me. I've never seen the use in Heal Block anyways (unless it stops Lefties gain). Wish I suppose we could give it since I don't see it getting any other Recovery move. Gravity isn't so much of a stretch if fat-asses like Blissey get it.
Baton Pass defintiely no. Yes, let's just make an already unpredictable pokemon even more unpredictable... I like that idea.
Anything else is meh w/e to me.
Forretress still has better physical defense than this and resists a crapload more stuff, much of which this is weak to. It also only has one weakness, and I doubt this will be getting Explosion.
I really hate using "this," so for now I shall reveal my current name for this.
Digitand (Digit[fingers] + hand) shall have many utility functions, but its typechart is totally different from Forretress/Skarmory and it won't have access to some of their more powerful moves. If anything is getting "replaced," it's probably Claydol, and Claydol still has a few useful things this doesn't.
Must Have:
Stealth Rock: I mean come on, a lot of Grounds know Stealth Rock. Plus even Infernape knows Stealth Rock
Spikes: Less often used, but still usable
Trick/Switcheroo: Swapping items is still good even if you can't Frisk 'em first.
Recover: A vital part of reliability is the ability to heal itself. Every other recovery move (apart from Rest) doesn't fit unfortunately.
Rapid Spin: Gets rid of stuff in the enemies side
Block/Spider Web/Mean Look: Haven't seen anything that DOES use any of these except for Umbreon
Wish: Same as Recover, it just takes longer
Reflect/Light Screen: Extra defense and/or special defense doesn't hurt
Safeguard: Status protection for the whole team FTW
Taunt: Stops people from setting up
Torment: Stops moves from being consecutively used
Imprison/Disable: Stops important moves from being used
Not 100% Favored:
Knock Off: Only there in case neither Trick nor Switcheroo are there. Otherwise skip it
Toxic Spikes: Guts-bait. If it weren't it would be a must have
Morning Sun/Synthesis/Moonlight/Rest/Slack Off: Doesn't fit flavor wise, but that's the only thing stopping them from being must haves
Heal Bell/Aromatherapy: Same as above
Will-O-Wisp: I don't see how it can pull this off, but less attack and gradual damage for the enemy? Helpful
Encore: Encore+Blocking move=cracked (broken)
Helping Hand: Unless in 1 on 1 combat, but in 2 on 2, could be helpful
Hypnosis: Not 100% sure how it pulls this off
Gravity: Seems too sweepy, but helps against Bronzong nonetheless
Iron Defense/Amnesia: The most useful stat boosters out of all of them
Don't Even Think About These:
Trick Room: This guy's too fast to use it effectively
Other Stat Boosters: Too sweepy, enough said
Counter/Mirror Coat: No, just no
Yawn: Too slow... Hypnosis is better
Tail Wind: Doesn't fit, not quite so good
Leech Seed/Aqua Ring/Ingrain: One's too good, the others aren't good enough. Can you spot the good?
Stealth Rock: I mean come on, a lot of Grounds know Stealth Rock. Plus even Infernape knows Stealth Rock
Spikes: Less often used, but still usable
Trick/Switcheroo: Swapping items is still good even if you can't Frisk 'em first.
Recover: A vital part of reliability is the ability to heal itself. Every other recovery move (apart from Rest) doesn't fit unfortunately.
Rapid Spin: Gets rid of stuff in the enemies side
Block/Spider Web/Mean Look: Haven't seen anything that DOES use any of these except for Umbreon
Wish: Same as Recover, it just takes longer
Reflect/Light Screen: Extra defense and/or special defense doesn't hurt
Safeguard: Status protection for the whole team FTW
Taunt: Stops people from setting up
Torment: Stops moves from being consecutively used
Imprison/Disable: Stops important moves from being used
Not 100% Favored:
Knock Off: Only there in case neither Trick nor Switcheroo are there. Otherwise skip it
Toxic Spikes: Guts-bait. If it weren't it would be a must have
Morning Sun/Synthesis/Moonlight/Rest/Slack Off: Doesn't fit flavor wise, but that's the only thing stopping them from being must haves
Heal Bell/Aromatherapy: Same as above
Will-O-Wisp: I don't see how it can pull this off, but less attack and gradual damage for the enemy? Helpful
Encore: Encore+Blocking move=cracked (broken)
Helping Hand: Unless in 1 on 1 combat, but in 2 on 2, could be helpful
Hypnosis: Not 100% sure how it pulls this off
Gravity: Seems too sweepy, but helps against Bronzong nonetheless
Iron Defense/Amnesia: The most useful stat boosters out of all of them
Don't Even Think About These:
Trick Room: This guy's too fast to use it effectively
Other Stat Boosters: Too sweepy, enough said
Counter/Mirror Coat: No, just no
Yawn: Too slow... Hypnosis is better
Tail Wind: Doesn't fit, not quite so good
Leech Seed/Aqua Ring/Ingrain: One's too good, the others aren't good enough. Can you spot the good?
The thing about block + encore is, what's going to stay in on him when it's vulnerable to encore?
Encore is probably going to be an incredibly common move for DLL , staying in when you can't kill him without boosting is going to ensure that he sets up Toxicspikes/Spikes/TR/whatever so it's a bad decision whether or not he has block.
Nobody in their right mind would ever consider something this fast and bulky with access to encore and taunt as being set-up fodder so I don't see why anyone who needs to set up would stay in.
Encore is probably going to be an incredibly common move for DLL , staying in when you can't kill him without boosting is going to ensure that he sets up Toxicspikes/Spikes/TR/whatever so it's a bad decision whether or not he has block.
Nobody in their right mind would ever consider something this fast and bulky with access to encore and taunt as being set-up fodder so I don't see why anyone who needs to set up would stay in.
Being able to set up Trick Room before anyone with Taunt can Taunt you is actually quite useful. Also a fast TR to slow U-turn isn't something to scoff about.
...Uhh, TR has a priority of -7 (or -6 depending on how you tier it). So why does that matter? But slow U-Turn in TR would be cool. IF it gets U-Turn.
WTF, really....well that's new to me. Also U-turn is considered an attack/utility to it got a fair chance of making it in the damaging attack discussion.
Why are people complaining about SR? Saying every Pokemon gets just shows that it should get it, too. It's a TM so it won't interfere with the number of useful moves, iirc.
DLL spiders don't make webs, don't have venom (sort of too late for that), and can't regenerate legs. They can, however, shed their legs to get away (U-Turn) and emit a gas to ward off predators when treatened (Poison Gas and Haze). They're actually not spiders either but that doesn't really matter.
Edit: Also I'm completely against Tailwind and think Gravity, Trick Room, and the Screens are just fine.
Edit: @ Deck Knight Froslass can't get any combination of Block, Spikes, and Disable.
DLL spiders don't make webs, don't have venom (sort of too late for that), and can't regenerate legs. They can, however, shed their legs to get away (U-Turn) and emit a gas to ward off predators when treatened (Poison Gas and Haze). They're actually not spiders either but that doesn't really matter.
Edit: Also I'm completely against Tailwind and think Gravity, Trick Room, and the Screens are just fine.
Edit: @ Deck Knight Froslass can't get any combination of Block, Spikes, and Disable.
As was stated earlier, some species of daddy long legs spin webs, and some spiders can regrow their legs over time. And while there is an arachnid called daddy long leg that isn't a spider, there's also one that is. As for having no venom, that's just outright wrong. Again, it seems you're confusing the two different daddy long legs. While the common myth about their venom being the deadliest on earth is wrong, they do clearly have venom.
For more information about Daddy Long Legs, please consult episode 13 of Mythbusters, which also contains myths such as Buried in Concrete and Jet Taxi.
their venom is the most poisonious in the world.
it isn't deadly to humans because their fangs aren't big enough to puncture our skin, and even if they were, they wouldn't be able to give us lethal doses.
it isn't deadly to humans because their fangs aren't big enough to puncture our skin, and even if they were, they wouldn't be able to give us lethal doses.
Diamond Dust, read the post directly above yours and stop believing in urban legends.
That's false. Again, watch Mythbusters episode 13. They tested the effects of Daddy Long Leg venom against that of a Black Widow's (the most deadly spider in North America). The Black Widow venom was immensely stronger.
The strongest venom in the world is the Brazillian Wandering Spider's, followed by the Funnelweb. It is true, however, that a Daddy Long Leg's fangs cannot penetrate deep enough to poison a human (though they can puncture the skin, it doesn't go deep enough).
THE MORE YOU KNOW
who cares?
It's a Poison-type. Obviously it can Poison stuff. I don't really get why you guys are arguing over its ability to cause Poison, its getting Toxic anyways.
Besides, the level of toxicity is something we can stretch without being totally unbelievable. You guys are trying to make this way too realistic.
It's a Poison-type. Obviously it can Poison stuff. I don't really get why you guys are arguing over its ability to cause Poison, its getting Toxic anyways.
Besides, the level of toxicity is something we can stretch without being totally unbelievable. You guys are trying to make this way too realistic.
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