CAP 33 - Part 5 - Defining Moves

[Dogfish44]

CAP33 So Far

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In this stage, we will develop a list of moves that will meaningfully affect future stages of the process for this CAP. These moves will need to be addressed in the stat limits and stat submission stages in order to contextualize submitted spreads. For example, a stat submission that elects to choose stronger Defining Moves from the "Choose At Least One" or "Optional" lists will be put under heavier scrutiny than those without them. The Movepool SL will organize these moves into the following lists, as needed:

1. Required: Stat spreads (or other future stages) must account for this move / these moves.
2. Choose At Least One: Stat spreads (or other future stages) must account for at least one of these moves.
3. Optional: Stat spreads (or other future stages) can elect to use these moves or not.

Moves that can be chosen as Defining Moves should be in the following categories:

• Boosting Moves
• Recovery Moves
• High Base-Power Moves
• Strong Utility Moves (self-switching moves, hazards, etc.)

Controversial moves or placements in lists can be sent to poll if the Movepool SL deems it necessary.

Please do not polljump by talking about specific stat spreads or suggesting specific abilities (outside of those already voted for by the community).

 

[Scizivire]

Heya, friendly neighborhood Scizivire here. Now that we've gained at least a basic idea of the potential matchups CAP33 has into the current meta, let's look at how CAP33 might put this in practice. During this stage, we're aiming to see which moves CAP33 might viably run based on what we know already: its typing, primary ability, role and matchups. Over the course of this thread I will be asking some questions to help guide discussion, and at the end of the stage we'll compile a list of moves that define CAP33's playstyle. That said, keep in mind that this list is a tentative guideline for when we get to the other move-related stages of the project, and we might revisit it slightly when that time comes.

So let's get into our first set of questions! These questions are going to be a bit more on the broad side, but we'll narrow down on the specifics as discussion moves along.

1. What is the best way to accentuate CAP33's role as a fast wall through the moves it will be using?
There are multiple ways we can perform a role as a fast wall. For example, we might disrupt the opponent through status or move locking, or be able to dish out damage while still being able to keep ourselves healthy by way of recovery moves. What (other) routes are available to us in order to solidify CAP33 as a fast wall, and which of these routes are viable to pursue during this process?

2. Which moves benefit from moving before the opponent, and how does this apply to CAP33?
It goes without saying that moving before the opponent is in most cases beneficial to a Pokémon's playstyle, but what we're looking for here is a list of moves for which the application is increased significantly compared to when they are used after the opponent has already made a move. Why are they that much better? How can CAP33 use these added benefits to effectively complete its role as a fast wall, and does this align with the answer for the question above?

3. Given CAP33's Water/Fairy type, what STAB-moves is it likely going to be using?
This might be a bit of an obvious question, but most currently relevant Pokémon in the metagame run at least one STAB move as a way to threaten opposing Pokémon out, regardless of how strong the Pokémon is or what role the Pokémon is performing on a team. Water/Fairy lends itself well to this considering both typings have consistent damaging moves, so let's look at which moves are viable and likely to be run on CAP33.

 

[BobKingOfSeagulls]

My gut instinct thinking over these questions is that anything that can hinder an opponent's ability to either deal damage, or mess with the team can be used well by a fast wall.

While not specifically suggesting this move, Scald is a stab move that can burn. Moving before the opponent means that even against a theoretical physical OHKO wall-breaker, they could burn the mon and survive that hit (you wouldn't want to be in this situation, but its an example of where speed and status/stat changing moves can benefit from speed).

 

[Samirsin]

1. What is the best way to accentuate CAP33's role as a fast wall through the moves it will be using?
To solidify CAP 33 as a fast wall, we should consider moves that prioritize disruption and control. Status moves like Will-O-Wisp or Thunder Wave (Glare if we are feeling daring) can cripple physical and fast attackers, respectively. Additionally, moves like Taunt can prevent opponents from setting up or using status moves against CAP33. To maintain its walling capabilities, recovery moves like Recover, Wish or Roost (even Pain Split) could be vital, allowing CAP33 to stay healthy and continue to wall effectively. Offense should not be our priority.

2. Which moves benefit from moving before the opponent, and how does this apply to CAP33?
Status moves like Toxic or Thunder Wave can be more effective when applied before the opponent's move. A fast Encore allows us to lock them in an unfavorable move and make progress. Disable is very simple but effective, disrupting Choice-locked users as well as spammable moves. Other moves like Teeter Dance (personal favorite) allows us to confuse the opponent, giving us a luck-based chance of preventing their attacks and they attacking themselves. If we lower their attacking stat before receiving the attack, we effectively improve our chances of surviving, this can be done through many options, an usually forgotten move is Feather Dance, which lowers the attack by two stages, but Strength Sap is the best option, as it heals us and lowers the enemy's Attack stat. Destiny Bond is a risky pick, as it would basically remove its role to just become a fast sacrifice. Haze or Clear Smog to remove buffs. A fast Yawn on a setup may dissuade the enemy from staying in if they make a setup move, for example. Moves like Simple Beam, Gastro Acid, Worry Seed, etc. that remove the opponent's ability can help against ability-oriented Pokémon, like Poison Heal Pokémon, for example. Soak can help by making the enemy lose their STABs, lowering their offense and making them weaker to other moves or allies.

3. Given CAP33's Water/Fairy type, what STAB-moves is it likely going to be using?
Scald is a particularly attractive choice due to its burn chance and the added utility of potentially weakening physical attackers. As for Fairy attacks, we do not have a big selection to choose from. Aside from Moonblast, Dazzling Gleam, Draining Kiss and Play Rough, there are not many viable Fairy attacks out there. Some exceptions could be Spirit Break, which lowers the enemy's attack, but may be too offensive.

 

[mark6870]

1. What is the best way to accentuate CAP33's role as a fast wall through the moves it will be using?

My first thought is Speed Control, be it through paralysis or some other means. CAP33 has the luxury of switching into the plethora of fast wallbreakers and going before them to do whatever it likes. while no Pokemon appreciates being paralyzed, pokemon like Walking Wake and Zamazenta especially do not because their speed is integral to what makes them so threatening. Outside of that, moves like Taunt and Encore are also very appealing. Taunt/Encore is useful for switching into sweepers such as SD Hisuian Samurott or Bulk Up Grusk and force them out by locking it into its setup move or stopping it from setting up further.

2. Which moves benefit from moving before the opponent, and how does this apply to CAP33?

The biggest benefit is the ability to act as speed control on one's team. Balance and BO teams ( archetypes where i think this mon will fit the best) need speed control, which is usually in the form of a choice scarfer like Samurott or a naturally fast pokemon like Dragapult or Zamazenta. These pokemon are usually geared towards offense or offensive utility and get use by forcing out other mons with specs Draco Meteor or +2 Body Press. CAP33 is interesting because it pairs that speed with longevity. As i have said and probably will say more throughout this process, it can switch into fast wallbreakers and possibly be faster than them and force them out with our utility or STABs. We can also click our recovery move before the opponent attacks which can either save us from fainting or bring us back up to Multiscale before the opponent attacks.

3. Given CAP33's Water/Fairy type, what STAB-moves is it likely going to be using?

Water and Fairy both have solid spammable moves in Moonblast and Scald. Offensively, Multiscale comes into play here as well since if the opponent is faster than us,for example a roaring moon DDs or a booster Valiant SDson the switch, we would still be able to stomach a +1 hit from them and then force them out with our STAB even though they are faster. Even if we are not the greatest offensively, Moonblast and Scald are hard to switch into due to many mons in this metagame being either weak to them or afraid of their secondary effects.

 

[Sawyer.]

I expect there to be a clear concensus that CAP33 should leverage its speed through fast recovery and by reducing/disrupting the opponent's capacity to damage it. In terms of specific moves:

Strength Sap is by far our most pro-concept option, combining high-PP recovery with damage mitigation. While Strength Sap on a Multiscale-abusing wall could easily be oppressive, I believe that a sufficiently low physical tankiness rating would be enough to balance it.

On the other hand, Scald is a move that we should not touch with a ten foot pole. Relying on Scald would make us extremely inconsistent at beating physical attackers 1v1, while also turning us into a degenerate variance-inducing nuisance. We should focus on more consistent options such as Chilling Water, Spirit Break, or even Will-o-Wisp.

Finally, our speed opens up possibilities to use some interesting utility moves. Encore can be absurdly effective, as seen with Scream Tail. However, I think Power Split is another interesting option. With low enough base offensive stats, this can cripple opposing physical and special attackers while bolstering our own offences to acceptable levels.

 

[Zetalz]

On the other hand, Scald is a move that we should not touch with a ten foot pole. Relying on Scald would make us extremely inconsistent at beating physical attackers 1v1, while also turning us into a degenerate variance-inducing nuisance. We should focus on more consistent options such as Chilling Water, Spirit Break, or even Will-o-Wisp.

Heavily disagree with this assessment. The mere presence of Scald on 33 forces physical attackers to respect of 33, lest they be crippled. Consistency is not a problem when it comes to Scald, because it's mere existence can often be enough to deter physical attackers from trying to take advantage of 33. (30% isn't "extremely" inconsistent either, not sure where that's coming from).

Moreover, Chilling Water and Spirit Break are dramatically weaker options that do not exert much offensive presence, nor have nearly as impactful secondary effects. "Consistency" doesn't matter when you are struggling to threaten opps that you should be able to pressure with STABs because of how weak they are, and when the debuffs you are applying are much more limited in scope. (Only physical attackers are somewhat bothered by CW, and only temporarily, but even special attackers don't appreciate the chip from scald burns.)

If you want to argue that 33 should primarily threaten the opponent through it's status/utility options that's fine, but suggesting things like Chilling Water or Spirit Break are preferable purely based on "consistency" is very reductive, both to Scald and to those moves themselves.

 

[Jomakl]

Fast moves
Due to the high speed of CAP 33 setup moves like heal block, block, disable, taunt. Can prove scary forcing your the enemy’s play. Any stall mon will be scared of heal block or disable. While set up mons would be scared of disable or taunt and once those are set block to keep a weakened Pokémon in

stabs
Scald, moonblast are great moves for this mon but I would like to bring your attention to water spout which is a high base power move based on your hp due to CAP 33s bulk and speed + multiscale you should be able to fire off two or more before a real drop in base power affects you, and then heal and you can’t be stoped.

heals
Recover (or clones) would be a great healing move, giga drain and Draining kiss are great healing attacks.
I’m new here take this with a garganacl

 

[boomp]

i think the moves overall that would benefit for CAP 33 would be Taunt and Scald. Due to it being fast wall moves like Taunt would benefit by outspeeding threats that would try to set up via Hazards or just going for game at that moment. I think scald can be a good stab move being able to weaken threats like sneasler, ogerpon-cornerstone, and by having a chance to burn them.

 

[Amamama]

1. What is the best way to accentuate CAP33's role as a fast wall through the moves it will be using?

2. Which moves benefit from moving before the opponent, and how does this apply to CAP33?

The four categories of moves named in the question are most likely also the categories which will work best with being faster than the opponent.
Move disruption with Taunt, Encore and Disable is pretty obvious, the former allowing you to impede unfavorable status moves used by the opponent, the latter two being able to lock a Mon into/out of a move before they can change options.
Offensive debuffs are the second category.
These can be further split into guaranteed debuffs like Chilling Water, Spirit Break, Wisp, Twave, Strength Sap and Haze as well as conditional debuffs like Scald or Moonblast, all of which can effectively increase 33s bulk.
Fast Recovery especially in conjunction with Multiscale can help 33 spend more turns focusing on utility or threatening the opponent, as the control that going first provides can allow it to play more proactively with its health than slower mons could.
Imo this excludes conditional recovery or recovery that is activated at the end of the turn, so Pain Split, Wish and Leech Seed.
I’m not entirely sure they’d be good enough, but I’d be interested to test/at least hear opinions on Life Dew/Jungle Healing/Lunar Blessing in conjunction with Multiscale and a second Recovery move.
While the decreased amount of recovery seems mostly bad, Multiscale might frequently put 33 in situations where the opponent only does marginal damage, even over more than one turn, while still leaving 33 wanting to recover. Additional PP from a secondary healing move as well as healing of status, that could impede Multiscales function the following turn seems interesting.

3. Given CAP33's Water/Fairy type, what STAB-moves is it likely going to be using?

Lastly Powerful (STAB) Coverage allows for threatening revengeing weakened foes, even after taking hits on a switch in.

Surf and Moonblast are the most “GoodSTAB” options in like all of Pokémon. Both are fairly balanced and have good damage output.
Going wrong with these two moves would be almost impossible.
While Moonblast is without a doubt the best (special) fairy option, Surf has two contenders with Scald being the more powerful option and Chilling Water being the safer but also much less impactful one.
Sets like Moonblast plus Surf/Scald/Chilling Water all seem possible and reliable.

On the physical spectrum the typing is much more awkward, with the best option being Liquidation, which has solid Power and perfect accuracy along with an effect (that might not be super useful for 33)
Meanwhile it has to chose between a strong but not super reliable Play Rough and a weaker but very interesting option in Spirit Break, which is capable of increasing its staying power for physical fairy STAB.

Overall Special attacks seem much more reliable and flexible, accessing several different powerlevels, while also being more powerful against targets given the common distribution of Bulk among them.

 

[Karoshi]

1. What is the best way to accentuate CAP33's role as a fast wall through the moves it will be using?
Status moves, Recovery Moves, Utility. Being able to wall opposing mon while gaining advantage or momentum is really important for defensive mon. Not much else to say imo, moving on.

2. Which moves benefit from moving before the opponent, and how does this apply to CAP33?
Status moves like Will-o-Wisp and TWave/Glare hindering the opponent prior to them hitting us has immediate benefit of either by crippling the attack stat or having a chance to prevent them from moving and can help our team in the long run. Strength Sap is arguably one of the best healing moves left in the game and can let us beat pretty much any physical threat that doesn't OHKO us if we outspeed. Taunt/Encore are amazing moves that should be noted as it would let us beat a fair bit of other defensive Pokemon assuming we can set it up before they get their turn.

Assuming we outspeed most Pokemon, Destiny Bond is always an option to consider. While gimmicky and requires prediction it does benefit from being on a faster user. Two move that meets the requirements but I'd be against without caveats would be Flip Turn and Chilly Reception. Unlike Teleport which has a negative priority, both are priority 0 and technically DO benefit being on a faster user to switch out on C&C to Pokemon that can deal with them while gaining some advantage in the process.

3. Given CAP33's Water/Fairy type, what STAB-moves is it likely going to be using?
Water Spout, Surf and Moonblast are our best STAB options respectively for raw damage. Something to consider for later is Fairy on the Physical side is fairly limited to Play Rough and Spirit Break which is inconsistent for the former and lacking power for the later. Scald, Chilling Water and Spirit Break all have consistent or relatively low investment secondary effects that should also be considered.

 

[Sawyer.]

Heavily disagree with this assessment. The mere presence of Scald on 33 forces physical attackers to respect of 33, lest they be crippled. Consistency is not a problem when it comes to Scald, because it's mere existence can often be enough to deter physical attackers from trying to take advantage of 33. (30% isn't "extremely" inconsistent either, not sure where that's coming from).

Moreover, Chilling Water and Spirit Break are dramatically weaker options that do not exert much offensive presence, nor have nearly as impactful secondary effects. "Consistency" doesn't matter when you are struggling to threaten opps that you should be able to pressure with STABs because of how weak they are, and when the debuffs you are applying are much more limited in scope. (Only physical attackers are somewhat bothered by CW, and only temporarily, but even special attackers don't appreciate the chip from scald burns.)

If you want to argue that 33 should primarily threaten the opponent through it's status/utility options that's fine, but suggesting things like Chilling Water or Spirit Break are preferable purely based on "consistency" is very reductive, both to Scald and to those moves themselves.

Yeah, so you actually didn't address the arguments I made against Scald. I argued:

• Scald isn't consistent enough at inflicting burns to let us reliably wall physical attackers (compared to Wisp or Chilling Water).
• Scald creates unnecessary levels of uncompetitive variance.

You responded:

• Scald makes physical attackers somewhat afraid of staying in on CAP33.
• The alternative STABs I mentioned are less threatening than Scald.

Not really relevant at all.

I'm talking about ensuring CAP33 can switch into an offensive threat and reliably force it out. In that regard, consistency is crucial. You're talking about giving CAP33 a way to make progress (through Scald). Making progress is not the conversation to be having right now, firstly because we're a wall, and secondly because it doesn't leverage our speed stat.

 

[Waldinji]

What is the best way to accentuate CAP33's role as a fast wall through the moves it will be using?

As a fast wall , I believe we need to separate both parts depending on what should be focused first.
- Either a Fast mon who would abuse Disrupting move like Status Moves (I Think Thunder Wave would be the most useful for it , as it Both helps Fast teammates & Slower teammates depending on the teamstyle it is on , but Will-O-Wisp / Toxic is a good contender for status spreading) or Switch moves (Flip Turn seems the most natural for a water type) on forced switch-ins or just free chip as its speed would allow to outspeed majority of pokemon against it).
- On The other side of the Spectrum , we have the wall side of the spectrum , who would benefit from The same Status Moves as a fast Pokemon would benefit from (especially Thunder Wave for the reasons above) , But it would massively benefit from Healing Moves (Either HP healing moves such Life Dew or Recover (We'll get to that move later) or Status healing moves such as Take Heart or Refresh / Aromatherapy) and Support moves (Hazards , Moves like Wish or Aromatherapy that benefit its teammates more) or even on the more niche side , Trapping Moves like Whirlpool would benefit its teammates & Its own walling abilities at the same time.

HOWEVER , I do NOT Believe recover would be healthy for this pokemon , despite how I mentioned the healing moves beneficiating this fast wall way more than an actual wall without speed (meaning it can be 2HKOd on Switch-in and thus ... Can't really heal) or a fast offensive pokemon without the longevity of a tank ala Ting-Lu for example. Recover/Slack off in particular beneficiating the walling aspect WITHOUT the drawback of being possibly being 2HKOd Both thanks to Multiscale & The high speed (meaning it would outspeed a majority of offensive threats) would make recover too much for most non-set up sweepers to break throught , and thus unhealthy in general for any given format

And NO , comparing to dragonite wouldn't work as Dragonite is an offensive threat , so Despise having Multiscale , it wouldn't have the raw walling ability of CAP33 , and thus , despite running recovery itself , It doesn't seem too overwhelming on a defensive aspect , as it uses healing moves & Tera to make its offensive threats more potent rather than making its defensive profile even more impressive.

Which Specific Moves would benefit CAP33 from Moving before his opponent ?
- We have the aformentioned status Spreading Moves , but Overall , all Status Moves would benefit a fast wall in particular. Moves like Strenght Sap or Taunt or even stat-lowering moves Take massive benefit from being used after first or after a switch-in , Strenght sap in particular Allows CAP33 to Almost Always get Multiscale back , especially on physical attackers. Taunt allows CAP33 to take advantage & force out more passive threats for itself or its teammate to take advantage off. And Stat-lowering moves/Stat-Boosting Moves being used first seem fairly self-explanetory (I'm not advocating this to be a Crit-me-not Sweeper btw) , as Both would benefit its walling capabilities even more (extra attention given to stat Lowering moves , as those would benefit its teammates' switch ins.
- When it comes to attacking moves as a fast wall ... Well , The options seem more interestingly limited than for status / Stat-lowering moves. Let's start with the obvious ... Switch moves like flip turn are a no-brainer when it comes to benefiting from attacking first. These take Both advantage of staying in & Switch-ins at the same time from the opponent , making CAP33 a more supportive fast wall , which would be the most logical direction of this specific genre of pokemon.

What would CAP33's Stab of choice be , knowing its water/Fairy typing?
We have 2 main Different Option to Consider here on top of Flip Turn as a stab move.
- Reliable , Spammable & Consistant stab Moves (Draining Kiss , Scald , Surf , Chilling Water , Spirit Break , Liquidation or Waterfall to name these) , all these are reliable , Spammable & Help it make progress itself (thus not turning it into a Taunt-Bait) in some way , shape or form (Draining kiss has one of the best HP Recovery rate / The best of any draining move in the entire game , Scald / Chilling Water / Spirit Break force out physical attackers while the rest of this list are consistant and relatively powerful against offensive threats.)
- The 2 Outliers: I've realized 2 moves (especially with every bit of proposal stated above) would be a MASSIVE Benefit for CAP33. Water Spout & Light of ruin. Water Spout first: This one seems quite obvious on a fast wall with Multiscale , You benefit from basically 2 Garanteed reliable water stab above base 100 & this stab Benefit from Strenght Sap & Recovery like Life Dew or Even Wish-Protect to no end as it even gives it BP Back up , allowing it to be "spammed" to convert the passivity problem of a suspectible taunt bait. Next on the explanation list: Light of Ruin. I know this move seems counter-intuitive to a Multiscale pokemon , but I do have a Logic and this move would benefit from everything stated above as well , Just in a very different way. Not only would LOR allow it to turn CAP33 into a reliable revenge Killer from anything weak to the move (benefiting from the ability to force switch-ins & Attacking first) , but as a recoil move on a mon with Both Multiscale & Some sort of reliable recovery in some way as a wall , This would allow CAP33 to Be way less worried of the main drawback , the 50% Recoil of LOR. Plus Fairy+Water synergize offensively super well , as Barely any Steel / Fire / Poison type would want to switch in a flip turn (especially for fire types).

 

[mark6870]

Making progress is not the conversation to be having right now, firstly because we're a wall, and secondly because it doesn't leverage our speed stat.

Every pokemon on a team makes progress in some way, shape or form. Garg is a wall who makes progress via Salt Cure and Stealth Rock. Toxapex in gen 8 and 7 was a wall that made progress through a combination of scald, knock off, and toxic/toxic spikes. Blissey used Stoss, Toxic, and Stealth Rock when it was OU viable. Dondozo is a wall that literally only deals damage, whether its setting up with Curse or just clicking Body Press.

A wall that doesn't make progress is too passive for any team. Even on stall which is (in laymans terms) 6 walls strapped together, how would you expect to win if you Dont Make Progress against the opponent? if you dont break them down you wont win and if you do break them down you're making progress against them.

Secondly, speed is relevant in relation to how CAP33 can make progress. The thing is though, making progress doesn't leverage our speed stat, but our speed stat leverages how we can make progress. For example, a fast Twave / Encore is shuts down setup, or on the ofable to move before an offensive threat and threaten it out with STAB or Scald burns.

on the topic of scald, it is incredibly consistent to the point even the knowledge that it exists can deter physical attackers. It's not that Scald 100% WILL cripple the opponent, it's just the CHANCE of being burnt is more scary than Chilling Water or Spirit Break's guaranteed secondary effects are. As for noncompetitive variance, while scald is threatening it is able to be played around. Pokemon players have been playing around it for about 13 years now. If it was uncompetitive, the move would have been banned already.

 

[Waldinji]

Every pokemon on a team makes progress in some way, shape or form.

Can't agree more , Even mons that don't partake in a battle AT ALL make progress to an extend thanks to how they impact your opponent's plays & How your opponent plays around threats (For example , Playing around krilo on standalone is fine once you waste a tera , But Krilo + Hemo is a completely different beast to try & Beat , even if Hemo doesn't have the cleanest switch-in opportunities)

 

[quziel]

Super low BP options seem incredibly unlikely to actually get use. Chilling Water, Draining Kiss are the poster children for this, as frankly, 50 BP + Growl is really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really bad. If Toxapex, a mon with 53 SpA is running Surf instead you know the move is not gonna be useful here. Draining Kiss is something I've seen brought up occasionally, but idt there's been a single mon in the history of the game that has run it without offensive setup, which I feel we probably want to deny.

Realistically I would expect us to run some mixture of Surf, Scald, Moonblast, Spirit Break, depending on the exact offensive stats we're allowed. Spirit Break seems neat, though I'd not really expect it that often over Moonblast just because the power difference is very large. I don't really buy that Scald is inconsistent, because if there's one thing that walls have shown is that being able to fish for Burn many times in a row thanks to high bulk makes 30% into 100%. This is a very well proven move that we should consider, even if its very stereotypical. On an unrelated note, I also don't trust the low PP high power options. Hydro Pump, Water Spout have been brought up (Light of Ruin is not in the game fyi), and frankly, I would not see us running them because a wall needs their main attacks to last a long time, cause well, you need to 4hko a lot of stuff, and if that's half your PP its not good.

Strength Sap and non-conditional 50% recovery feel like the ones to aim for. Sap is obviously a high power option, especially given its interaction with Multiscale, though its a very unknown quality that I feel a lot of folks will have trouble really figuring out the strength of when making stats. Unsure if we want to include it in defining moves just because of that difficulty. Recover, Slack Off, etc feel like a relatively safe set of options that should make it onto the list.

In terms of "high impact moves" I'm in favor of considering the guaranteed status moves, eg Wisp, Twave, some of the disruptive utility options especially Encore, and Taunt to a far lesser extent. Knock Off, as very cliche as it is, is a relatively solid option here; fast defensive mons, e.g. AV Torn, have shown that its uniquely good in CAP at making our bulk better, just because of the strong interaction when facing Krilowatt, and its a very solid way to prevent a lot of our switchins from treating us as free. I'll edit this section later once I have time to think.

I guess my central thesis is "yo fini 2?"

 

[Brambane]

I think your basic moveset is something like Scald/Moonblast/Strength Sap or Recover/Utility Filler. I know this isn't "movesets" stage but let's be real here, you aren't walking into the office and picking out moves without seeing how they fit together. Pretty much every move without negative priority is leveraging its Speed in a meaningful way, so the answer to "which moves benefit going before the opponent" the answer is "pretty much everything except pivoting and very situationally Encore/Substitute."

Utility Filler has two flavors. The first one are moves that really work with Multiscale in particular, so Haze and Whirlwind for saving your butt from sweepers. Haze kinda makes more sense as a "fast" response, but don't see a world where we wouldn't give CAP33 both. The second group is your typical assortment of useful support, i.e. Encore, Taunt, status, Knock Off, and hazard control. I don't think hazard control is required or even desirable here from a teambuilding perspective, but the rest seem like okay things to toss on the mon.

Physical/contact STABs are bad, including Spirit Break. Breaking your Multiscale on a Rocky Helmet or proccing shit like Static does not seem remotely worth using a significantly lower BP STAB option on average. Knock Off is the only contact move worth considering imo.

 

[Darek]

I think determining the best "Defining" moves ultimately comes down to the question of how we want to prevent CAP33 from being too passive. It should go without saying that any successful wall currently is able to avoid being passive, whether through their ability to do direct damage or to provide tangible progress through hazards/hazard control, status, and other options. A critical aspect of this is how our STABs come into play: Obviously high-power STABs with decent offensive stats suffice here, but I, and likely others, don't find this to be a particularly engaging route.

That being said, not every lower power move with a secondary effect necessarily prevents CAP33 from being passive. The biggest offenders of this are Chilling Water and Spirit Break. The -1 Attack drop is nice to win certain 1v1s, but ultimately fail to threaten meaningful long-term progress. This means that several mons that we would want to check lose little from staying in one more turn to get extra chip to break Multiscale if we fail to exert sufficient levels of direct damage.

Treating Surf/Moonblast as a given for CAP33 to have, I think what we choose for our Defining Move should be those that are able to force permanent progress on the opponent. Scald, Knock Off, Will-o-Wisp, and Thunder Wave come to mind here. While not forcing permanent progress, I think Encore deserves consideration here as well simply due to the consistency at which a fast Encore can force switches and shut down setup. Note that I don't think all 5 of these moves should be present on CAP33's moveset; specifically Scald + Knock Off is infamously difficult to safely switch into. I think at this stage of the process it is critical that we narrow down which of these moves we want to focus on, whether that be through poll or other means, such that we know exactly what CAP33 will be doing come the stats stage.

Lastly, I want to make a comment on Strength Sap. While extremely pro-concept on paper, I don't think Strength Sap is good on CAP33 at all, purely because the best mon in the tier has 50 base attack and can easily switch in on us repeatedly while threatening us out with Sludge Bomb. As such, trying to fit Strength Sap as our primary means of recovery makes little sense unless we want an extremely pigeonholed stat spread, and I don't think sets will ever run both Strength Sap and 50% Recovery, given that we have a decent pool of utility. Regardless, a decision on Strength Sap must be made at this stage rather than the later movepool stage, simply due to how much it affects our stats.

 

[Explosion Badger]

1. What is the best way to accentuate CAP33's role as a fast wall through the moves it will be using?

As discussed prior in abilities, one of the biggest strengths of 33's high speed, especially with Multiscale, is our ability to heal ourselves before we're hit by another attack, allowing us to withstand attacks that we normally couldn't, and with Multiscale, reducing the amount of damage we take even further. As such, aside from the obvious in having recovery, 33's most useful movepool options should be moves that allow us to take direct advantage of our speed healing, such as reducing the damage our opponent can deal to us before they even attack, punishing the opponent while being able to heal before they attack, or threatening to open up opponents to be taken advantage of by 33's more offensive teammates.

2. Which moves benefit from moving before the opponent, and how does this apply to CAP33?

Scald is one of the biggest contenders here. As a reliable STAB option coupled with the ability to threaten a burn, it can easily scare out mons that don't want to be burned, especially physical attackers who's damage output would be crippled before they even get a chance to harm 33. Will-o-wisp is similar in its utility, but trades consistent damage for a (mostly) guaranteed burn. Encore gains a lot of utility in moving first, allowing 33 to threaten whatever it switches in on with being taken advantage of while its locked into a move. In particular, this allows 33 the chance to be more bold and risky in its playstyle, letting it switch in on mons with coverage it might normally fear, and use its speed + Encore to turn them into sitting ducks against it. With all of these mons that 33 can potentially threaten out, pivoting moves are also an interesting route to consider, as 33 can both pivot on a forced switch, or use its bulk to take a hit from a faster pokemon, such as a scarfed mon, and switch its teammates in safely.

 

[HallowedHarlequin]

2. Which moves benefit from moving before the opponent, and how does this apply to CAP33?

The disruption trifecta of Encore, Disable, and Taunt are all extremely pro-concept, but I hesitate over the idea of a fast wall with access to all three. This could put 33 in a "pick your counters" situation since a fast Encore ruins setup wallbreakers, a fast Disable ruins choiced wallbreakers, and a fast Taunt ruins stallbreakers. I'd love to hear from more experienced users on if that's an unfounded fear, or which of the three would be most valuable but not overbearing.

I also think that 33 is uniquely well positioned to make use of stat drops, both to survive and to force switches. Dropping the opponent's offensive stat is much more effective when you go first, which is something defensive Pokemon normally don't get to do. I do think Pex would actually run Chilling Water more often if it had the speed to move first, and if it wasn't extra incentivized to go for damage because a lot of what threatens it happens to be weak to water. Even if Chilling Water and Spirit Break might not end up on the best sets, I think this project is the perfect time to explore that possibility.

I also want to suggest going all the way with Eerie Impulse and/or Charm. -2 is a huge power loss for an attacker to deal with, especially against an opponent with (I'm assuming) reliable recovery. This could be particularly effective with hazards down, or combined with other utility like partial trapping/item manipulation/substitute. The previous unviability of stat drops invites the question of, 'are stat drop-focused strategies inherently not worth it, or can they be viable given the right conditions?' I believe we are creating just those conditions with the fast wall role (especially given the prevalence of hazards this gen), and I love the CAP project for its emphasis on creating to understand the metagame through questions like that and the others posed in this thread.

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

2.
Is revival blessing too much to consider on a fast mon with plenty of bulk - not sure if its banned tho apologies if yes? Pawm and Rabsca are less than stellar making them a tax to be able to use the same threatening mon twice, but woud a RB Cap 33 could turn it into a 7v6. While my kneejerk reaction would be to say that's overbearing, if we were making a CAP based around a non-tax Revival Blessing CAP, I don't think so far we'd see that much different from what we have so far with CAP33 - a fast wall, who has the strength to take a hit and waste a turn to heal an ally.

 

[snake]

3. Given CAP33's Water/Fairy type, what STAB-moves is it likely going to be using?

Given Fairy typing, I think special moves are generally more useful because Play Rough and Spirit Break are rather underwhelming moves in general. The main draw to a physical CAP33 is having a stronger hit into Iron Moth with something like Liquidation, but I think that's a small benefit in the grand scheme of things.

In terms of Water-type STAB, I think Surf, Scald, and Hydro Pump are the main go-tos here. As the main Water-type STAB for Gen 9, Surf is the gold standard of power and accuracy typical for a water-type. Scald is a much more powerful option that has returned in the DLC and should not be overlooked as a fast wall. Burning opponents before they can hit back is incredibly strong and forces any physical attacker to think twice about switching into CAP33. Especially in the absence of Scald, Hydro Pump could be used over Surf for its extra base power to pick up knockouts, which was seen Choice Scarf Tapu Fini. While that set was more offensive in nature, its defensive prowess was definitely a major draw to using it. A naturally fast Pokemon like CAP33 might want the extra power to KO something like Hemogoblin.

As for Fairy-type STAB, it's hard to argue against Moonblast for its power, reliability, and secondary effect. The only other contender, and the main reason why I wanted to make this post, is Draining Kiss. Draining Kiss in a vacuum pairs excellently with Multiscale, allowing CAP33 to heal back up to 100% HP more easily. However, Draining Kiss's paltry 50 BP isn't doing it favors here, as it's basically half of the power of Moonblast. With so many Fairy-type targets, I have doubts that CAP33 can get away running this move, even if we just don't give CAP33 Moonblast (in an effort to force it to run Draining Kiss). The main way that Pokemon like Hatterene, Enamorus-T, and Comfey have historically overcome Draining Kiss's shortcomings is by running it alongside Calm Mind. Setup moves don't exactly line up with the general interpretation of the concept that I've noticed we've been operating on; however, Calm Mind + Draining Kiss + Multiscale is such a devastatingly effective combo (even funnier with Scald) that I couldn't pass up on the opportunity to highlight that now rather than later - whether we choose to consider it in stats or outright deny it.

To make a case for Calm Mind: Since CAP33 (fast/defensive) is somewhere between two different brands of Calm Mind users - the slower/bulkier SS Tapu Fini/Reuniclus variant and the fast/offensive Iron Valiant/SM Mega Alakazam brand, it could be worth exploring what sort of stat spreads / EV spreads get run with Calm Mind CAP33. I'm also fairly certain that Scream Tail would run CM + Draining Kiss if it had the option to, so it could be worth exploring what that might look like if Scream Tail could run it. Calm Mind also relieves some pressure of stats since setup can make up for lower stats, which I've been wondering about for a few stages now. Last, it's never too late to change direction with a CAP based on the decisions/opinions made in previous stages if it seems like previously awkward options make more sense later on.

 

[Sawyer.]

Given that low-power moves like Draining Kiss and Chilled Water are especially pro-concept and/or synergistic with Multiscale, why not consider tailoring CAP33's stats and movepool to make them viable STAB options? We could easily provide CAP33 with a high offensive stat but a dearth of "standard" high-power attacking options (Surf, Moonblast).

 

[Fenghuang]

1. What is the best way to accentuate CAP33's role as a fast wall through the moves it will be using?
There are multiple ways we can perform a role as a fast wall. For example, we might disrupt the opponent through status or move locking, or be able to dish out damage while still being able to keep ourselves healthy by way of recovery moves. What (other) routes are available to us in order to solidify CAP33 as a fast wall, and which of these routes are viable to pursue during this process?

Something underrated I'd like to bring up (without even being fully sure if it is a good idea): whirlpool. Whirlpool sets are useful even to non-whirlpool sets because it means you have to play more careful around them. Tapu Fini in particular really appreciated whirlpool even on calm mind sets, to make opposing walls need to play safer. Being able to trap and then move first can be very strong, and it can improve some of its wall matchups.

2. Which moves benefit from moving before the opponent, and how does this apply to CAP33?
It goes without saying that moving before the opponent is in most cases beneficial to a Pokémon's playstyle, but what we're looking for here is a list of moves for which the application is increased significantly compared to when they are used after the opponent has already made a move. Why are they that much better? How can CAP33 use these added benefits to effectively complete its role as a fast wall, and does this align with the answer for the question above?

many of these have already been talked about: fast recovery (particularly fast strength sap), fast status (scald and will-o in particular), fast taunt/encore/disable, fast haze. I want to talk about strength sap in particular here.

So with 0 attack IVs and minus attack, venomicon hits a cool 94 attack. This is probably going to end up being a quarter to a third of our health bar, not great for an extremely common mon which switches into us and threatens with sludge bomb.

On the other hand, let's look at what else it does. Cripples physical attackers while healing ourself, and perhaps just as important it has 16 rather than 8 PP, which is really great fora mon that wants increased longevity. The synergy of speed and strength sap is tantalizing (and cards on the table, I'd want it even if it was suboptimal and we'd be better off conserving our power budget, such is how much I like it).

 

[mark6870]

Lastly, I want to make a comment on Strength Sap. While extremely pro-concept on paper, I don't think Strength Sap is good on CAP33 at all, purely because the best mon in the tier has 50 base attack and can easily switch in on us repeatedly while threatening us out with Sludge Bomb.

Agreed on Strength Sap, especially if we have Scald or even Charm/Chilling Water. According to the threats assessment, all of our switchins are physical bar Wake. That means they're already threatened by Scald and are likely to switch out.

Now once we look at our C&C, we see mons like Venomicon (only the best mon in the tier no biggie), Galarian Slowking, Pex, Clef, Zapdos, Rotom Wash, and Sneasler. All of these mons really don't care about Strength Sap and have low attack stats. The story basically goes as follows:

-we switch into a mon we check with the intent to strength sap
-they switch out
-they switch into one of our C&C
-6 out of 7 times we get little HP back because 6 out of 7 C&C dont have good Attack
-tears ensue