CAP 32 - Part 7 - Threats Discussion

[spoo]

CAP 32 So Far

-----

Alright folks, we're officially a Fire/Fairy-type Pixilate user with some strong potential move options down the line like Extreme Speed, Boomburst, and Knock Off. Please pay very close attention to spoo's posts during this thread and remain on topic.

In this stage, we will try to analyze which Pokemon sets could threaten or be threatened by us. Based on our typing and concept we will also decide which specific threats we should focus on later stages, and which ones should be mostly left alone. Then, the Topic Leader will organize them into a list, following this basic format:

• Switch in: The list of Pokemon on which we should be able to have a easy time switching in and then forcing them out, more than once in a game. This doesn't mean that we should be able to come into any of their moves, just their most commonly used ones.
• Pressure: The list of Pokemon that might threaten us, but should not be able to switch in easily. They should not be able to check us easily.
• Checks and Counters: The list of Pokemon should, in some way, threaten us. This might mean that they will probably be able to beat us 1v1, or at least severely cripple us. Certain Pokemon, in particular Revenge Killers might be included both in here and in Pressure, because once they switch in, they should be able to check us.

This threatlist should serve as a guideline for the rest of the project. However, this is not set in stone, and might change later if the Topic Leadership Team deems it necessary.

The following is a set of questions that we should try to answer during this discussion:

• Going specifically by typing, what Pokemon found in the CAP metagame will be able to comfortably give this project trouble?
• What Pokemon will be major threats to this project right off the bat?
• What Pokemon have the potential to become counters?
• What Pokemon may end up as threats, but must be contained or dealt with per the concept?
• Will the concept succeed with this list of threats?
• Is this list of threats acceptable for the project?
• What Pokemon will be threatened by the CAP based off of typing?
• Are these Pokemon targets that we want CAP to hit?
• Will these targets be "unavoidable" to threaten based solely on the typing?
• What direction must the project go in now that a set list of basic threats has been identified?
• What must be done in order to make these threats "wanted counters" or these threats be eliminated from counter discussion?
• Are there any Pokemon that we want to completely counter?

No individual post has to answer every question.

Guidelines:
1) Pay close attention to the Topic Leader during this discussion. Their job is to keep us focused and to bring insight.
2) Do not poll jump. Poll jumping is a serious offense in these threads, and you can get infracted for it. Poll jumping is when you discuss something that should be discussed in the future, like specifying a CAP's stats or typing. You're allowed to hint at such things to conclude a point or to provide an example, but do not centralize your post on a poll jump. Poll jumping hurts the focus of early threads and can cause us to go off on a tangent. If you're not sure if a particular argument is poll jumping or not, err on the side of caution and don't post it.
3) Refer to Pokemon by specific sets. This way we can clearly identify which specific sets we should be focusing on, and what specific characteristics makes us threaten or threatened by them. Adding complete movesets, EV spreads and Natures is recommended, but not mandatory.
4) Assume that Stealth Rock is on both sides of the field, unless otherwise specified. This can be changed by the Topic Leader during the discussion.
4) This are the exact definitions of check and counter that we will be working with:

-Pokémon A checks a Pokémon B set if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into that Pokémon B set, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.
-Pokémon A counters a Pokémon B set if Pokémon A can manually switch into that Pokémon B set, and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

 

[spoo]

Hi, it's me again, happy to see y'all one more time for the Threats stage! We have a lot of information about CAP32 now, so putting together a threats list should be fairly straightforward. I'll also remind everyone to take a look at the Viability Rankings before making any bold claims in this thread - it's all well and good if Pyroak and Mollux (just for example) can switch into us effectively, but it's not like they're particularly common or strong mons either, so hyperfixating on stuff like that isn't super productive. Basically, keep discussion targeted towards relevant meta options.

We know CAP 32 is going to be offensively oriented first and foremost. Given this, we probably won't be able to switch into a ton of strong stuff repeatedly through the match, so I'll kick off discussion by asking: Are there any defensive mons that we can take advantage of and switch into?

Our typing still gives us a decent set of resists, so I'll also ask: Are there any offensive mons that we can use as switch-in opportunities?

Finally, are there any mons that our typing alone may not make us safe against, but can be turned into switch-ins via stats?

It's alright if your answers to these questions aren't 100% reliable switch-ins. Perhaps we can switch into something's STABs, but not its common coverage; that's perfectly fine, as long as you're pointing that out in your evaluations.

Lastly, I'm aiming for a relatively short threats stage, just two or three days long. Threats is historically a stage with comparatively low participation, so I'm hoping that a condensed timeline will help us stay focused and power through these questions. I'll see you again in 24 hours to move discussion forward!

 

[mark6870]

Are there any defensive mons that we can take advantage of and switch into?
Looking at the VR, we actually can't come in on many defensive pokemon. Out of all the defensive mons B and above on the VR, Tomohawk and Orthworm are our safest points of entry.

Are there any offensive mons that we can use as switch-in opportunities?
Jumbao, Jumbao, Jumbao and Jumbao. There's also Roaring Moon, although it may carry EQ. We also come in on Iron Valiant, Meowscrada (although we need to be afraid of Knock), Miasmaw (beware EQ and tera poison Gunk Shot), Baxcalibur (Watch out for EQ again), Breloom ( Watch out for Spore and Rock Tomb), and Pult if it's locked into Fire Blast or Draco Meteor.

Are there any mons that our typing alone may not make us safe against, but can be turned into switch-ins via stats?
Corviknight. It's by no means a wallbreaker, but Brave Bird can deal significant chip if we aren't bulky. Other than that, we threaten it out with Fire STAB.

 

[Amamama]

Are there any defensive mons that we can take advantage of and switch into?

Honestly no.
Not a single defensive Pokémon currently ranked can be assumed as free entry point. Orthworm is somewhat free but considering what it does it’s hard to take advantage of.
The closest otherwise is probably Corviknight running Body Press and Uturn but taking a brave bird is probably far from free. 32 might be able to take advantage of a spiking Arghonaut too but coming in on a knock is highly detrimental to it.
There are some defensive mons 32 might be able to get the better of with correct predictions. Those are Amoonguss and Tomohawk.

Are there any offensive mons that we can use as switch-in opportunities?

Jumbao is the easiest switch in 32 is going to get of any ranked Mon, which is definitely pretty cool.
It also currently resists itself, so that’s there.
Cinderace is another Mon it can come into but cinderace might adapt to run Gunk shot and a still hard to handle since it resists us too and has a fast uturn to get out of that interaction.
Both Meowscarada and Breloom are probably somewhat safe damage wise (breloom can run rock tomb though) but both can heavily cripple 32.
Otherwise it might be able to use Choice locked attackers as entrypoints. Though even taking resisted hits there can hurt a looot.
Choiced mons that 32 would be able to come in freely are choiced dragon moves (Dragapult, Baxcalibur and Roaring Moon).
Choiced Dark, Fire, Grass, Ice, Fairies and Fighting types mainly Valiant, Iron Moth, Roaring Moon, Meowscarada and Baxcalibur can also offer switch in opportunities whose STABs 32 naturally resists.

Are there any mons that our typing alone may not make us safe against, but can be turned into switch-ins via stats?

Corviknight, Booster Valiant, Astrolotl

Overall 32 really doesn’t have many good blanket switch in opportunities. It rather relies on good predictions and taking advantage of choice locked mons.

 

[Brambane]

Are there any defensive mons that we can take advantage of and switch into?

Long-term, not really. Short-term, kind of, but the list is short. Arghonaut will remove your item, which sucks, but CAP32 can otherwise switch into the standard set and immediately threaten Arghonaut. Corviknight can be pressured out, but obviously switching into a U-turn is suboptimal.

That is pretty much it, all the other "defensive" mons are either simultaneously offensive (i.e. AV Pex, Libra, Skeledirge, Garg, Venom-P) or have SE moves or annoying status (i.e. Non-AV Pex, Clod, Ting-Lu.)

Are there any offensive mons that we can use as switch-in opportunities?

Jumbao is pretty much always safe and our best opportunity to switch in. Meowscarada is similar. Iron Valiant is possible, but very set dependent; getting baited in by a Liquidation Valiant is agony.

CAP32 can switch into a lot of things probably once if it predicts right. For example, if you come in on an Equilibra Protect or maybe Flash Cannon depending on our bulk, you can start applying pressure. This is true also for Kingambit, Fighting-types and Grass-types; you just need to come in on the right move and be stronger/faster to actually threaten them. Pretty stats dependent and a big component of the next stage. Depending on Speed (or how strong your ExtremeSpeed is) you could risk it for the biscuit in switch into certain set-up mons like Roaring Moon on a DD.

Are there any mons that our typing alone may not make us safe against, but can be turned into switch-ins via stats?

Anything that hits us overall neutral, which isn't a lot but like Sludge Bomb-less Book (so most of them) and Hydro Pump-less Dragapult. If you don't let it boost in your face, Hatterene for sure.

Overall, I think we are re-emphasizing a point we made earlier in the process: CAP32 has a pretty poor defensive profile. This reads to me that we are going to be benefitting more from partnering with other pivots or aggressive double-switches to come in, or only consistently coming in once a match and having to make the absolute most of it.

 

[Da Pizza Man]

Are there any defensive mons that we can take advantage of and switch into?

Our typing still gives us a decent set of resists, so I'll also ask: Are there any offensive mons that we can use as switch-in opportunities?

: We resist all of its attacks bad Tera Blast (Before Terastallization) and easily force it out. This match-up is probably one of the most notable ones for the process.
: We don't want to take an Eartquake, but the rest of its moves are all fairly exploitable. I would like to note that we are only super safe on switchin-in on choiced sets, since Dragon Dance sets can just Tera to avoid the OHKO from Extreme Speed and kill us.
(Without Gunk Shot): We resist most of what it has to throw at us, and if we have Extreme Speed we can take advantage of Sucker Punch and High Jump Kick as well. That being said, this is a risky matchup, since if it has Gunk Shot it destroys us.
: We resist all of its attacks bar the fairly uncommon Thunder Punch, and even that we shouldn't take too much from if we have passable physical bulk. This is probably our easiest match-up in general.
Very much the same case as Roaring Moon, but this one is riskier since it's less obvious which set it is without scouting it out first.
: We obviously don't want to get hit with Spore or certain coverage moves, but we resist both of its STABs, and as long as we aren't slow as molasses we can very easily take it out in return.

Finally, are there any mons that our typing alone may not make us safe against, but can be turned into switch-ins via stats?

(Mixed): We resist both of its STABs, but it's coverage can still deal with us fairly easily if we don't have enough Special Bulk.
: Brave Bird is fairly strong even coming from a defensive mon like Corviknight, so we are going to need a good amount of physical bulk to turn ourselves into a safe switch-in.
: Same case as Corviknight, difference is that we need Special Bulk instead of Physical Bulk for this matchup

 

[Brown4Sides]

Are there any defensive mons that we can take advantage of and switch into?
Not really. It's not gonna take much damage from anything Arghonaut does but it does hate losing its boots. There's also Orthworm but you can't really punish Shed Tail by switching in.

Are there any offensive mons that we can use as switch-in opportunities?
This is also a fairly small list. The only offensive mons we can switch into realistically are Jumbao and Meowscarada. Everything else that you think CAP 32 would be able to switch into hates coverage (Gunk Shot from Cinderace, Earthquake from Baxcalibur and Roaring Moon) or hates status (Spore from Breloom).

 

[spoo]

Said I wanted a quick Threats stage and yet I'm late with my posts, who woulda thought. It seems everyone is on mostly the same page so far. There are very few defensive Pokemon we can take advantage of, and aside from Jumbao, very few on the offensive side as well. This makes sense, and isn't the worst thing in the world, either –– we never really intended to be a defensive powerhouse.

Safe Switch-ins:
Shaky Switch-ins:
Stat-dependent Switch-ins:

Jumbao is just about the only Pokemon we should expect to reliably come in on unpunished (relatively speaking). Iron Valiant is somewhat set-dependent, able to tech Liquidation and certain Tera types to beat us, while Cinderace can tech Gunk Shot and we don't really want to be switching in on Knock Off or Circle Throw (to a lesser extent) from Argh. Still, I think we can count these matchups generally in our favor. W.r.t. Meow/Pult/Baxcalibur, I think each mon commonly runs at least two moves we don't want to come in on, so I left them off.

Feel free to give feedback on this list among your answers to these next questions. For now though, let's move onto our pressure matchups. This is where things start to get weird because we don't know yet if we'll be physical or special; our matchups might change drastically depending on whether we have, say, Pixilate Extreme Speed or Boomburst. Just something to consider as you think about which mons we adequately pressure.

As a reminder, "pressure" matchups refer the mons that might beat us in a 1v1, but struggle to enter the field safely. Likewise, there will be mons that we pressure –– mons that we can't always switch in safely against, but likely force out if we are able to get in for free. So, onto the questions:

What mons can force us out if they're able to enter the field safely, just by virtue of our typing? What mons should force us out if they can enter safely, by virtue of our potential stats/coverage options (or lack thereof)?

What mons can we force out if we're able to enter safely, just with our dual STAB options? What mons should we be able to force out if we enter safely, by virtue of our stats/coverage options? How does a special vs physical bias and our potential access to moves like Extreme Speed impact these matchups?

As always, 24-ish hours until the next questions. Let's keep the ball rolling and hammer through this stage so we can get into arguably the most important part of this project –– our stats!

 

[skippergamez]

What mons can force us out if they're able to enter the field safely, just by virtue of our typing?

Krilowatt, Venomicon, Venomicon-E, Toxapex, Clodsire, Iron Moth, and Stratagem are all threats to us.

What mons should force us out if they can enter safely, by virtue of our potential stats/coverage options (or lack thereof)?

Snealstrom, Smokomodo, Plasmanta, Mollux, Naviathan, Dondozo all should force us out, but it sorta dependent on stats.

What mons can we force out if we're able to enter safely, just with our dual STAB options?

Caribolt, Kingambit, Breloom, Gholdengo, Dragapult, Dragonite, Roaring Moon, and Garchomp

What mons should we be able to force out if we enter safely, by virtue of our stats/coverage options?

Great Tusk, Equilibra, Greninja, Iron Valiant, Ting-Lu, and Colossoil.

How does a special vs physical bias and our potential access to moves like Extreme Speed impact these matchups?

ESpeed helps a lot with Speed Control while a special or physical preference kinda splits the list in half tbh

 

[mark6870]

What mons can force us out if they're able to enter the field safely, just by virtue of our typing?
Most Fire, Water, and Poison Types have CAP32 quaking in its boots. Out of these, Venomicon, Clodsire, Toxapex, Skeledirge, Iron Moth, Volcorona, and Garganacl (it's an honorary bulky water seeing as how often it teras) are able to enter the field safely just by switching into either of our STAB.


What mons should force us out if they can enter safely, by virtue of our potential stats/coverage options (or lack thereof)?
No matter what coverage we get, we're probably gonna be safely stopped by Skeledirge. Obviously, the best remedy to that is Knock which will certainly be on stats submissions in the future. If we don't get electric coverage, Snaelstrom and other waters such as spdef curse Dondozo check us with their sheer bulk.


What mons can we force out if we're able to enter safely, just with our dual STAB options?
Mons we force out aka faith restored in this typing aka copying almost everything B- and up on VR lol because there is a LOT this typing threatens out:
Arghonaut
Dragapult
Equilibra
Great Tusk
Iron Valiant
Jumbao
Gholdengo
Roaring Moon
Caribolt
Dragonite
Garchomp
Greninja
Kingambit
Corviknight
Meowscarada
Breloom
Iron Treads
Kitsunoh
Quaquaval
Scizor
Tomohawk
Amoonguss
Miasmaw
Orthworm
Pawmot


What mons should we be able to force out if we enter safely, by virtue of our stats/coverage options? How does a special vs physical bias and our potential access to moves like Extreme Speed impact these matchups?
Physical bias means we can run Extreme Speed and potentially Fake Out as well. This means we can spend more BSR on power and bulk (so we can take neutral hits such as Corvi's Brave Bird better) while still forcing out / Rkilling foes like Roaring Moon, Dragapult, Dragonite, Greninja, and Meowscrada without needing a blinding speed tier.

On the other hand, a special bias lends itself towards Boomburst and Torch song, which (while torch song is PISS poor without boomburst i will DIE ON THIS HILL) allow for less special attack to be run in exchange for speed, so it can outspeed such threats naturally and have the power of Boomburst to break through stuff like Specially Defensive Dondozo. It's also worth noting that Venom, one of our better checks currently, will be getting hit on the side that isn't boosted by Stamina. It's also worth noting that special movesets have better coverage than physical ones. Psychic and Thunderbolt will always be better than Psycho Cut and Wild Charge.


One more thought that doesn't really fit under any of the questions, but i think it should be noted that many physical setup sweepers Terastalize Fire to avoid burn damage/gain defensive merit. This has the added affect of making them much harder to revenge kill by us considering our STABs. There are also pokemon like non-CM Hatterene that we don't have a winning or losing MU with, but we do make trades.

 

[Brown4Sides]

What mons can force us out if they're able to enter the field safely, just by virtue of our typing? What mons should force us out if they can enter safely, by virtue of our potential stats/coverage options (or lack thereof)?

If we are physical, fast offensive stuff that resists Fairy should force us out. It's kinda hard to get further into this without polljumping a specific speed stat, but I would say that we should be forced out by Iron Moth and Plasmanta at least, maybe more depending on our Speed stat. If we're special, being weak or neutral to Fairy doesn't matter because we can't Extreme Speed anything. As such, the pool of stuff that forces us out is larger in this case, and we can add Greninja, Krilowatt, Roaring Moon, Garchomp, Colossoil, and Stratagem to this list.

What mons can we force out if we're able to enter safely, just with our dual STAB options? What mons should we be able to force out if we enter safely, by virtue of our stats/coverage options? How does a special vs physical bias and our potential access to moves like Extreme Speed impact these matchups?

Like with the other question, whether we are physical or special will greatly affect what we can force out due to a physical bias providing speed control. With the previous question, the list I gave was rather small for physical bias and got larger when I discussed special bias. However, here, it's the opposite. The pool of stuff we force out is greater if we are physical due to our speed control capabilities. If we are special, we should expect to force out Arghonaut, Orthworm, Kingambit, and Corviknight. If we are physical, we can add Garchomp, Pawmot, Greninja, Roaring Moon, Colossoil, Iron Valiant, and Baxcalibur to this list.

tl;dr:

We get forced out (if physical):
We get forced out (if special):
We force out (if physical):
We force out (if special):

 

[ryangregory78]

What mons can force us out if they're able to enter the field safely, just by virtue of our typing?

The biggest one I can think of off the top of my head is Iron Moth. Fully walls both of our STAB options and threatens us with its own super-effective STAB Sludge Wave; probably the closest thing to a perfect counter you could ever ask for. No reason we should ever be staying in on that thing. Glimmora and Toxapex interact with CAP32 in a similar fashion, completely blanking anything it can do offensively and boasting super-effective STAB to put it to bed, with the former even using your attacks for free hazards. Come to think of it, just about any Water in the tier barring Gren and Argh (Krilowatt, Snaelstrom, Dondozo, Washtom) forces us out on account of the fact that unboosted ESpeeds won't really be significantly denting these Pokemon, and we in turn get OHKO'd or severely chunked by their Water STAB. Skeledirge, Venomicon, and Garganacl all resist at least one of our STABs, with Skeledirge resisting both, and have either enough natural bulk (Garg) or the necessary abilities (Venom) to turn our mere presence into free setup, not to mention the fact that CAP32 gets utterly ruined by Salt Cure.

What mons can we force out if we're able to enter safely, just with our dual STAB options? What mons should we be able to force out if we enter safely, by virtue of our stats/coverage options?

Just about every Fairy-weak offensive Pokemon won't even wanna come close to ESpeed. Roaring Moon, Iron Valiant, Dragapult, Baxcalibur, Garchomp, Greninja, Meowscarada, and HJK Cinderace all either get OHKO'd or cleanly 2HKO'd by an ESpeed coming off of a fairly modest 100 base Attack (I should note that I am only using 100 Attack as a baseline to gauge CAP32's relative power, and am not making any stat spread recommendations yet), meaning that we'll have no trouble forcing all of them out insofar as we can get on the field safely. Fire-weak threats like Jumbao, Kingambit, and Gholdengo get shredded by Fire STAB, with even the incredibly bulky Kingambit being cleanly 2HKO'd by Bitter Blade coming off of 100 base Attack.

 

[Amamama]

What mons can force us out if they're able to enter the field safely, just by virtue of our typing? What mons should force us out if they can enter safely, by virtue of our potential stats/coverage options (or lack thereof)?

Poison, Ground Rock and Water types that don’t resist or are weak to one of our Stabs should be comfortable coming in a few times and threaten us super effectively.
Additionally Fire types check us pretty well without having coverage for them but not all can immediately threaten us out.

Among these types Krilowatt, Rotom, Toxapex, Dondozo, Saharaja Garganacl Iron Moth Glimmora Smokomodo and Crucibelle stand out as mons that are going to be fairly safe at coming in on at least one of our STABs, tanking a hit and immediately forcing 32 out regardless of stats thanks to SE STAB coverage.
Venomicon, Plasmanta and Clodsire are going to be fairly solid into physical respectively Special sets but might have trouble checking 32 easily on their „weaker side“.

Last but most importantly ground types which resist one of 32s stabs or are generally bulky will be able to force 32 out even if they might be weak to its other STAB
Great Tusk, Equilibra, Garchomp and Colossoil all have the bulk to tank a hit or even two even if they are weak to it.
Improving These Matchups are going to be crucial for CAP32s viability and exceedingly important for the stats stage.
Imo we should look into significantly reducing this list overall in the coming stages through stats (mainly Speed) and moves (pivoting plus coverage/crippling techs). Cap 32 will rely a lot on Teammates and good predictions to find opportunities to hit the field. This means it should be really hard to check reliably outside of a few mons like Pex, Garganacl and dondozo which are fat and not weak to any of the moves we are likely to run, while resisting one of our STABs

What mons can we force out if we're able to enter safely, just with our dual STAB options? What mons should we be able to force out if we enter safely, by virtue of our stats/coverage options? How does a special vs physical bias and our potential access to moves like Extreme Speed impact these matchups?

Imo the two most important categories are fast mons and fat ground types.

Falling flat of threatening out mons like Libra and Tusk will be really hard on this Mon. CAP32 should be capable of threatening significant damage to these ground types and be capable of forcing them out if it is in a 1v1 (with a bit of prior chip, since getting a OHKO here is going to be really hard to achieve).
Similarly mons like Pult, Valiant, Greninja, Meowscarada, Roaring Moon, Dragonite and Baxcalibur should be terribly afraid of our Main STAB regardless of bias.
Additionally there are some mons Like Arghonaut, Kingambit, Gholdengo, Corviknight, amoongus, Scizor or Breloom that are generally threatened by one of our STABs due to lower Speed stats.
It is notable that a lot of mons weak to fairy are generally fast, while those weak to fire rarely breach the 100 speed stat.
For Espeed vs Boomburst imo this means having significant Attack vs Speed.
It is also notable that a lot of the sweepers weak to fairy run Tera types that resist it, meaning solely focusing on revenge killing with fairy STAB might not be enough to make 32 reliable on a team.

 

[spoo]

Yo, back to push through the last leg of this stage, but I'd like to apologize first –– discussion veered a bit into hard counters, and I should have been more clear with the questions I asked.

As a reminder, "pressure" matchups refer the mons that might beat us in a 1v1, but struggle to enter the field safely. Likewise, there will be mons that we pressure –– mons that we can't always switch in safely against, but likely force out if we are able to get in for free. So, onto the questions:

This was a little vague in hindsight, so to clarify further –– we're looking at mons that incur a heavy risk by switching directly into us, but if they can manage to do so safely, they'd presumably force us out. Take something like Equilibra, which obviously doesn't want to switch into our Fire-type STAB, but in a neutral 1v1 we can imagine that it tanks a hit from full health and KOs us back. This is not merely looking at things that force us out/we force out (as my questions erroneously implied), but also takes into account that these mons struggle to enter versus us/we struggle to enter versus them. Compare this to stuff like Toxapex/Dirge which are pretty much always gonna be able to safely switch into us, barring coverage.

With that said, some of the mons discussed so far absolutely still fall into the "pressure" category. I thought the mentions of bulky Ground-types for mons that pressure us, and offensive Dragons for mons that we pressure, were particularly relevant. So, these are the initial pressure lists that I've come up with:
Pressures Us: (Bulky Grounds)
We Pressure: (Offensive Dragons)

Trying to keep things concise here and using Libra as a stand-in for stuff like Chomp/Tusk, and Pult to represent Roaring Moon/Bax/etc. I have also taken the liberty of assembling an initial Checks & Counters list, since like I said, that's sorta where discussion ended up anyways:
C&C: (P)(P)(S)

Full List

Switch-ins:
Shaky Switch-ins:
Stat-dependent Switch-ins:
--
Pressures Us: (Bulky Grounds)
We Pressure: (Offensive Dragons)
--
C&C: (P)(P)(S)
(P=Physical CAP32, S=Special CAP32)

Because some of the talk on pressures and C&C overlapped, I want to make sure that the final list is in a good spot before we head into the next stage. These are the final things I'll be asking:

Does this list of pressures look adequate? Is there anything you'd add or remove?
Does this C&C look adequate? Is there anything you'd add or remove?

Basically just asking for final tweaks if anything looks out of place. 24 hours before we move onto Stat Limits.

 

[ryangregory78]

Does this list of pressures look adequate? Is there anything you'd add or remove?

Pressures list looks pretty good. I might be blanking on something obvious, but as it stands I think it looks pretty good. If anything, I'd say if Gren threatens us even in spite of ESpeed, then Colossoil might be one to consider for pressuring us. Colossoil has the natural bulk to take at least one Torch Song/Flamethrower/whatever the hell else and blow our nose off with HR or Facade. Given how important Bao's gonna inevitably be for our stat stage, we're probably gonna end up faster anyway, but it's still a matchup worth considering imo.

Does this C&C look adequate? Is there anything you'd add or remove?

The only thing I'd add is Garganacl as a C&C for physical CAP32. Garg resists our Fire STAB and has more than enough physical bulk to take on ESpeed, in addition to having Recover to stay healthy and super-effective Salt Cure which absolutely trashes us. You could make the argument that Garg is a C&C for both physical and special, but I'm not sure how well Garg's gonna be able to take on TS into Big Noise, so I think it's pretty safe to say that Garg is a really solid C&C against physical sets.

Also I think that Meowscarada should absolutely be listed as a shaky switch. CAP32 resists both of its STABs and easily OHKOs it with one of its own STABs (ESpeed is especially good against Meow), and though eating a Knock as losing Boots does suck really bad, if Argh - a mon that runs Knock on almost ever set save for 1100s Technician Aqua Jet heat - counts as a shaky switch, then no doubt Meow should as well.

 

[spoo]

Switch-ins:
Shaky Switch-ins:
Stat-dependent Switch-ins:
--
Pressures Us: (Bulky Grounds)
We Pressure: (Offensive Dragons)
--
C&C: (P)(P)(S)
(P=Physical CAP32, S=Special CAP32)

And with that, our threats list is complete! As per ryan’s suggestions, I’ve replaced dondozo with garg in our C&C since it’s a far more relevant meta option right now, and begrudgingly added meow to our shaky switch-ins. I would advise users not to focus much on this matchup at all during stats as meow is a knock + u-turn bot first and foremost (aka not something we want to mess with), but we are indeed able to switch in once or twice and force it out - it’s shaky as all hell, but I suppose that that’s what the category is for.

Thanks everyone for the discussion, I’m glad this stage didn’t end up taking too much time (though still longer than I initially planned…) - I’ll hand things off to quziel now for Stat Limits!