CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 5 - Secondary Flavor Ability Discussion

[Rising_Dusk]

We've chosen our first negligibly competitive flavor ability in Forewarn, and now we must decide whether we want another and if so, what it should be. For reference, the slated abilities from the last poll that did not pass were Unnerve, Sticky Hold, Anticipation, and Liquid Ooze. I do not consider them shoe-ins for this poll, however, as now we have a little more flavor than we did before in knowing our first ability. Treat this discussion as if it had never mentioned those four abilities, and sell them to me if you can! For the edification of those involved, consider No Secondary Ability mandatory for the slate. Since this is flavor, there's no reason why we have to have a second ability. Furthermore, although most Pokemon have a Dream World ability, they do not have to. Ferrothorn, Terrakion, Levitate-Pokemon, and many others do not have Dream World abilities. While some advertise that this is only because they are 'defined' by their primary abilities, I find that argument too subjective. If we want CAP 2 to have no Dream World ability, it will have no Dream World ability.

This thread will be open for roughly 24 hours. I may leave it open for longer if we have trouble getting anywhere with flavor abilities.

I went through every ability in the game for the last discussion thread and, using my current feelings, created a list of the negligibly competitive abilities that we could give to CAP 2 in this poll.

Hide

Anticipation
Big Pecks
Damp
Forewarn
Friend Guard
Gluttony
Healer
Heavy Metal
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Infiltrator
Keen Eye
Light Metal
Liquid Ooze
Magma Armor
Minus
Moody
Oblivious
Own Tempo
Pickup
Plus
Pressure
Run Away
Soundproof
Sticky Hold
Swarm
Tangled Feet
Telepathy
Torrent
Unnerve

CAP 2 thus far:

Concept: Sketch Artist

Description: A Pokemon that learns Sketch, once, and everything that goes along with that.

Justification:

In terms of uniqueness, I think that few existing Pokemon can match DPP Smeargle, an otherwise laughably worthless Pokemon trolling OU with access to every trick in the book (or at least 4 of them) but also affecting the metagame greatly by becoming a top threat in the lead metagame. This Pokemon will borrow some of that uniqueness by learning the move Sketch and thus having access to ONE surprise/strategic/gutshot bonus move to supplement its pre-existing movepool. Being otherwise competently built (read: usable stats), this Poke could be a top threat or specialist for reasons we can't even predict yet.

Questions To Be Answered:

• How will a Poke that has access to any one move out of all the moves in the game affect common battling tactics, namely prediction, scouting, and switching?
• Which Sketch moves will become most common on this Poke's best sets? Does Sketchmon's success rely on hiding that secret Sketch move until just the right moment or can it succeed with predictably powerful moves like Spore, Spikes, Hurricane, Shell Smash, etc.?
• Does this unique and powerful access to moves need to be counterbalanced elsewhere in the Pokemon's design? If so, then to what degree?
• What kind of impact can Sketchmon have on teambuilding in terms of being able to patch holes with common utility moves like Rapid Spin or Toxic Spikes?

Explanation: The key here is that we have a lot of freedom to construct a unique Pokemon while staying within the confines of the concept. Typing, stats, abilities, and even most of the movepool are completely fair game so long as the Poke learns Sketch only once along the way and that we keep that in mind during previous steps. Now, this doesn't mean the CAP process will be directionless; Rising Dusk is pretty well organized and good at keeping discussions focused, and the concept itself has firm grounding in Smeargle's precedent. What's really being studied with this concept is movepool diversity and effectiveness, so it should have the most effect on the movepool process, where movepool creators will have to carefully balance their Sketchmon's actual movepool with the possibility of adding any one other move to the list. In terms of the metagame, there is no doubt in my mind that throwing a wildcard like this into the mix will strongly affect the metagame.

Focus: Bulky Offense
Typing: Grass / Ghost
Stats: 64 HP / 120 Atk / 100 Def / 85 SpA / 120 SpD / 81 Spe
Ability: Forewarn
Primary Checks: Heatran, Jirachi, Skarmory, Hydreigon

tl;dr: Quack! (More flavor abilities!)

 

[LouisCyphre]

We could always complete the pair and get Anticipation on CAP 2.

She has an acute, if slight, sense of precognition (Anticipation) but dreams of having full view of the future (Forewarn).

Oh, well fine. I thought it was cute.

 

[Asylum_Rhapsody]

Having a second flavor ability with minimal competitive value actually seems counterproductive. We already decided that Sketchy shouldn't have a competitive ability, so what's going to happen if we give it a second ability? People are just going to worry about which ability is better for which set, and I think that's going to distract from Sketchy's concept purpose, which was exactly why we didn't want a competitive ability to begin with. Unless we feel like being hilarious trolls and giving it Moody as a hidden ability, I just don't see the point. I could maybe see giving it Anticipation just because it's almost identical to Forewarn if we really feel that it needs a hidden ability, but that's about it. My vote is definitely going to be for No Secondary Ability.

 

[Engineer Pikachu]

I wholeheartedly agree with Asylum here. NCA was agreed upon because having a competitive ability would deviate from the original concept; the same reasoning applies here. As the main purpose of CAP2 is to investigate how Sketch affects the metagame, I feel that more than one ability, however uncompetitive, detracts from the concept.

For this reason, I'm throwing my support behind No Secondary Ability as well.

 

[riekku]

Well, I think it's possible to insert a flavor ability to aid in double or triple battles, so Telepathy would be okay...

If we're sticking with singles, I still think sticky hold or liquid ooze would be a good idea.

 

[Style_Dota]

Having a secondary option for an ability gives CAP II a chance to have a semi decent ability. Abilities like Sticky Hold or Liquid Ooze, while seeming useless, could cause an impact (especially Sticky Hold, not being able to Trick this thing could be a BIG problem)

I am going with No Secondary Ability

 

[Asylum_Rhapsody]

Also, there's something that I need to get off of my chest about Sticky Hold and Liquid Ooze that I didn't get to say last time. We're looking for an ability here that is competitively negligible and conceptually fitting, not just one that is competitively negligible. It is a flavor ability after all. Some people suggested before that we could pick an ability and then just change the name to better suit the concept, but then why suggest that ability to begin with? If what you want is the mechanic of the ability, then you clearly have some ulterior competitive motive behind the suggestion or else why suggest it? It really seems to me that we should be wary of any suggestion that requires a name change to fit conceptually, unless it's something that has literally no use in battle, like Illuminate. Otherwise, there are enough competitively negligible abilities that already fit conceptually without requiring any name change.

 

[jas61292]

While I could see Anticipation or Unnerve working out well, just as before, I really think No Secondary Ability is the way to go. While other abilities make sense, they do not make as much sense to me as Forewarn, and since we have that, why give it something that is not as good for flavor if we don't have to? This is a great opportunity to just keep it simple.

 

[RitterCat]

I support having a secondary ability, and to address the problem of people choosing between one and the other and being preoccupied with that instead of Sketchy, I also support Anticipation. This is virtually the same as Forwarn, so there would be no worry over which ability to use instead of focussing on Sketch. It also completes a nice little flavour touch, with its two similar abilities showing different ways that it senses the future. However, in my opinion it's Anticipation or nothing. If we don't choose Anticipation, any other secondary ability would distract us from the true purpose of the CAP, as mentioned by the previous posters. As Anticipation is the only flavour some ability that is similar enough to alleviate these concerns, it is in my opinion the only suitable secondary ability for Sketchy. So with that in mind, I support Anticipation with No Secondary Ability as the only alternative

 

[ShiningFire]

I'm going to support either Liquid Ooze or Pressure.

First of all Liquid Ooze is completely useless, being immune to Leech Seed and Drain Punch, resistant to Giga Drain, the most use it has is switching into a draining attack and taking a little HP out to get a head start in the battle.

Pressure, on the other hand, is slightly competitive, everyone fearing a SubSeeder with access to Pressure and potentially WoW. But that would kill the entire concept of this. It would make it completely predictable and everyone would always be preepared for it to use one set. Of course that's saying if we weren't to give it Leech Seed. I we did that, it would ALWAYS need to Sketch an attack or else it'll die from a fast Taunter.

 

[erisia]

At this stage I'd go for either Anticipation or No Secondary Ability. The others seem kind of out of place with Forewarn being selected, and they are flavour abilities after all. Didn't realise Unnerve would make CAP so deadly with a Scarf and Spore. :/

 

[Aura Disciple]

Well, I think it's possible to insert a flavor ability to aid in double or triple battles, so Telepathy would be okay...

If we're sticking with singles, I still think sticky hold or liquid ooze would be a good idea.

I agree that Telepathy is another good choice as an alternative to no competitive ability. As we will mostly likely be doing single battles, I'd rather have a flavor ability that does nothing rather than the lack of flavor.

As Asylum_Rhapsodysaid, we're going for the minimum competitiveness, but on the otherhand we are promoting flavor and telepathy fits the bill.

 

[steelguttey]

I think Anticipation or No Secondary Ability would be best.

 

[Spork]

I'd probably rather have an ability that affirms the relevance of Forewarn rather than just leaving Forewarn confused and alone. Something like Telepathy (don't like Anticipation, not psychic-ey enough).

But really I'm not actually fussed at all.

 

[LeUmoq]

Well, i'm new om Smogon, and also kinda new with Competitive battling, but i'm going with the idea of Louis, because that's an awesome idea! So i think Anticipaction is a great ability for her.

 

[shinyskarmory]

No secondary ability seems like the best option to me.

We've already decided that CAP 2 has the ability to Sketch 1 move of its choice. We've also decided to give it Forewarn and a (very) physically biased stat spread. I think we've gone as far as we can go in terms of uniqueness before we start losing the ability to tell the results of the experiment that CAP 2 is.

Earlier in the CAP process, we as a group rejected Multitype because we acknowledged that creating a pokemon based on both of these elements that have complete control over a pokemon would have defeated the purpose of the project, because we wouldn't learn anything. I think that we can afford to not have a second ability and not wreck the pokemon.

 

[MektarTheOverlord]

I wholeheartedly agree with Asylum here. NCA was agreed upon because having a competitive ability would deviate from the original concept; the same reasoning applies here. As the main purpose of CAP2 is to investigate how Sketch affects the metagame, I feel that more than one ability, however uncompetitive, detracts from the concept.

For this reason, I'm throwing my support behind No Secondary Ability as well.

Likewise. I'm throwing my support behind No Secondary Ability. It makes no practical sense to have more than one ability when it comes to this concept.

 

[Spenstar]

I dunno about NSA, there are a lot of Pokemon with two similar (or different) flavor abilities.

I mean, this is flavor, let's go nuts! These barely competitive abilities listed don't distract from the concept at all. I think that we should get creative here and treat this like flavor, rather than a competitive step.

While I still want Infiltrator, I think either Pressure or Unnerve would be awesome. I mean, look at that thing, IDK about you guys, but it kinda get me creeped out. In a good way. I can imagine it having that kind of effect on other Pokemon. As far as flavor goes, the two are identifcal, and quite a few pressure mons get unnerve in the dream world anyway.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I do not think it is sensible to lay claim that a secondary flavor ability will 'ruin the CAP' or 'distract from the concept' as neither is true in any way. These are flavor abilities, and thus have negligible competitive impact and will not change anything one way or the other. The choice between Forewarn and Ability #2 will not be a valuable piece of information for your opponent nor will it be a meaningful choice you make as a player. If any of the above is why you want No Secondary Ability, I want you to seriously reconsider your position! NSA is a fine choice, but you should make sure it's what you want for flavor reasons.

I personally like the suggestion of Telepathy. I think it is a fine extension of mental faculties without hinting too intensely at the Psychic-type. I do not think Unnerve makes particular sense with Forewarn as our first ability at this moment, since they seem almost conflicting in the style of flavor they portray.

 

[LouisCyphre]

I'd probably rather have an ability that affirms the relevance of Forewarn rather than just leaving Forewarn confused and alone. Something like Telepathy (don't like Anticipation, not psychic-ey enough).

But really I'm not actually fussed at all.

Eevee, Barboach, Whiscash, Wormadam, Croagunk, and Toxicroak all get Anticipation.

I think CAP 2's precognitive abilities can easily match the likes of these.

Come on guys, Anticipation -> DW Forewarn. It sets CAP 2 on a quest to improve her connection with the spirits...

 

[MLaRF]

I'll throw my support for Gluttony, because venus fly traps are just fucking pigs and sit there and wait for food to come to them.
Also, someone's going to have to say it, we all secretly think Big Pecks would be hilarious. After all, who can be mature and play pokemon?

 

[capefeather]

OK good, no one came up with this idea while I was gone.

I don't think I want an ability that's "redundant" with Forewarn (putting Anticipation and maybe Unnerve in there). I originally wanted something that emphasizes the plant aspect of this CAP, but the flavour abilities listed really didn't allow that to happen (don't say Liquid Ooze / Sticky Hold). Then I looked at Grass-type dancers. While abilities like Healer popped out once, the only ability that appeared multiple times is what I propose to you now:

Own Tempo

I think that this is the best secondary ability for this. A big part of the modern (and traditional, to an extent) shrine maiden's functions is the performance of ritual dances. I don't think that it's fruitful to double up on one aspect of the design, and this allows for a diversification in the flavour despite having virtually nothing to go on for the plant aspect. I think that, if anything can stop the NCA train, it's this ability.

 

[Gerard]

I like the idea of Own Tempo as a dancer, it gives her more personality and nothing outside of Machamp uses confusion regularly

Telepathy is my favorite just because it's in line with Forewarn's mental powers and being able to read minds it would interesting ability for a maiden/escort to have to fulfil his master's desires, or as a Venus pokemon-trap to be a better hunter and be able to transform in whatever will attract the pokemon she's looking for dinner, it's amazing for both sides of her personality, and gives her a usefulness in Doubles and Triples over the "Random" of Forewarn, but not to the point of being awesome since she alredy ressists Earthquake, Discharge and Surf and is immune to Selfdestruct/Explosion

I love Pressure because while not being fully useful it makes defensive and stalling sets better, instead of the more offensiveness that most sets will probably have thanks to the set up and coverage options, even with sacred fire and leech seed I don't think this will be so hard to kill, even more considering she only has a 50% chance of burn and lacks boosting options

 

[verbatim]

Machamp's confusion comes from a fighting type attack, so even that won't have competitive merit (unless I dust off my Foresight Champ).

I'm sad that Cute Charm isn't going to win, but i'd like to give my support for Own Tempo for the connection between dancing (tempo) and the fact that she is a shrine maiden.

 

[Solstice]

Own Tempo or Telepathy seem to be very good choices here. I like Own Tempo for the "dancing maiden" aspect, it also kind of makes her seem lonely, she follows her own set of ideas. Telepathy adds into Forewarn, giving it an extra dimension of the "mind reader" personality.