CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 10 - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

[Purple Cant]

It is true that if a player Ingrained with Necturna on the same turn that the opponent switches in Heatran, phazing wouldn't be the first thing on Heatran's mind.

However, we will assume that every team has at least one phazer and that the player with Necturna is smart. If Necturna's checks are out of commission, then nothing would stop her from Ingraining and then boosting up. Phazing, while seemingly unwise in the face of such a Pokemon, should be a last-ditch effort to stop her from bulldozing through your team without a proper check.

I'm just really uncomfortable with such an immunity at Necturna's fingertips. Ingrain is no Shell Smash or Quiver Dance, but it just gives her something which I think she shouldn't have so easily. Additionally, besides Baton Pass + Ingrain, there's no other reason to allow it. I see your point on the matter, but I personally think that the detriments of Ingrain outweigh the benefits. I'm still sticking with disallowing Ingrain.

EDIT: I also agree with Spork on Ingrain as well. Some of his/her other arguments are interesting, too.

 

[Spork]

I am absolutely on the side of allowing the 'conditional' 50% recovery moves, along with Deck, however, because Sun is just generally pretty detrimental to a defensive set - it's just a horribly offensive environment that allows Fire types and Dragons and Chlorophyllers to run rampant, and allows almost anything with HP Fire to do more than 50% to Necturna anyway. Running Morning Sun on a set that relies upon it pretty much forces you to use Ninetales support, and, without even Leech Seed, Necturna is really out of place as a supporting pokemon on a sun team - Toxic Spikes and Sacred Fire/Rapid Spin can be a decent niche, buts its speed, defenses and typing really, really hurt it here. There's also the PP problem - Stalling out anyone's PP or attempting to recoup HP over several moves in order to attack or status is almost always a losing battle.

That said, these moves are still somewhat feasible and could enhance defensive sets anyway, as the 33% recovery is going to let it stall out resisted attackers or give it some recovery on the switch, without allowing its defensive sets to be too viable. We all know that Rain is the most complementary condition for Necturna that want to sponge hits :P. Allow Synthesis, Morning Sun and Moonlight.

Ingrain gives Necturna a notable baton pass niche, and also gives her some limited recovery - however, the recovery is poor and prevents switching. Whilst Ingrain is less relevant this gen to Baton Pass thanks to Espeon, Dragon Tail remains a notable threat to BP teams, and an extra 6.25% per turn is pretty great for a team where every mon is holding Leftovers. Is a move that can only feasibly be used alongside Baton Pass (and remember, we already have Calm Mind to improve BP viability) bad on a bulky offense pokemon, considering that baton passers are often the antithesis of offensive? Or is a Baton Pass niche good on a pokemon whose ability to use any move in the game is a major part of its concept?

I currently kinda feel like Ingrain should probably be disallowed, generally because I side more with the argument that I don't think we should be encouraging Necturna to Sketch Baton Pass at all.


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Wish is kinda interesting. Necturna's a bit of a crappy Wish passer in terms of HP, but thanks to that unique typing she does have amazing synergy with a lot of pokemon, giving her a Wish passing niche. In terms of personal recovery, it's generally inferior to Recover, because it often requires Protect, which most pokemon don't have room for, but I don't thing that's specifically true for Necturna.. Wish is basically the biggest boost we could give to any set that wants to go defensive, and giving a moveslot over to Protect doesn't exactly hurt Necturna, since her movepool is pretty shallow as it is and she can easily use Sketch to fill several moveslot roles at once (Wish/Protect/Sacred Fire/Horn Leech anybody?), so, in the end, I think Wish isn't particularly far off from something like Softboiled, which RD has already decided shouldn't be allowed. Wish has no offensive utility whatsoever either, and kinda goes against the whole bulky offense thing - bulky sweepers that want to heal do it the old-fashioned way with chesto rest, and Wish is pretty much inferior in this regard. I think we should disallow Wish.

Pain Split is ass. Sub Pain Split isn't really a far cry from Sub Leech Seed, and it'd likely involve a similar set, just a more offensively orientated one. I don't really like it, I don't think it helps the direction we're trying to go in with Necturna, and I think it gives her the ability to do too much to her counters without even using Sketch. Sacred Fire / Pain Split / Substitute / Power Whip/Stone Edge would be the likely set, probably.

Refresh should be allowed IMO, because it's a bit of a wasted moveslot, really. Necturna can't use Refresh like, for example, Latias, because of a lack of instant recovery (might work with Wish?), lesser physical bulk, speed and offenses and a poor attacking type (she can only sketch one thing at once!). I think sets that try and use Refresh alongside something like Quiver Dance are going to be inferior to the Croturna route, tbh. It's an interesting choice on some offensive sets, but offesnive Necturna doesn't really have room for it - neither does bulky Necturna, for that matter, who appreciates poison resistance but has no idea where to put it over Toxic Spikes, potential recovery, Sacred Fire, Horn Leech etc. Aromatherapy is similar, but it adds team support, making it more attractive, but simultaneously less offensive, so I'm undecided on it.

pHazing isn't exactly bad. The damaging ones are slightly worse, as they let you do stuff like break Heatran's balloon or Skarm's sturdy, but they're not really different. I don't know if we should be giving this thing such a large level of defensive potential before we even use Sketch - I mean, if Wish, Whirlwind, Toxic Spikes and Aromatherapy all made the movepool I reckon it might distract focus just a little bit. I don't really have much of an opinion on them though so I dunno why I'm commenting...

 

[Auraknight]

I would like to re-raise a point that went a little under the radar from my previous post, which is that I would like to propose that we Allow Agility.

I feel that Necturna (as well as obviously being a powerful offensive presence) has the potential to be an effective supporter, particularly a speed boosting one. Agility allows it to fix its middling speed without having to give up the sketch slot to do it, thus preventing it from becoming inferior to other defensive grass types. On offensive sets, boosting with Agility would not, I believe, cause issues. Once the sketch move has been determined, Necturna would become relatively easy to deal with without a method of boosting its offenses, and I believe that allowing agility would allow Necturna to play a more versatile part in its team.

 

[McLuvdisc]

Allow Dragon Tail, Allow Whirlwind/Roar, Disallow Circle Throw. We're giving Necturna entry hazards, so it stands to reason that we should give it phazing moves to rack up damage on them. However, a physical phazing move that also scores super-effective hits on two of Necturna's primary checks is just too powerful, especially with Team Preview making it so much easier to predict switches.

Team Preview has been carried over to CAP, right? Gah, I need to Golurk before I post any more. But seriously, is anyone else besides me having a hard time wrapping their head around this concept? We're debating over what moves should be banned on Necturna, but at the end of the day, her access to Sketch means she'll be able to learn all of the techniques we've written treatises against. Saying "move X would be broken" is meaningless now; instead, one has to show how move X would only be broken if it was paired with move Y or Z. That requires some serious mental gymnastics, but it's really fun. Kudos to Korski for thinking up such a great concept!

 

[v]

I agree with disallowing Ingrain. While it is true that we want CaP2 to have a variety of moves to Sketch, Baton Pass has proven to be a very powerful strategy, having been banned in ADV and variations on BP bans happening throughout several tiers. Considering that Mew is currently allowed in OU alongside Smeargle and several other capable Baton Passers, I think adding an Ingrain-passer would be nothing but unhealthy for the game.

DBond+shit like Gear Change/Butterfly Dance/Shell Smash makes it a little TOO easy to pick up an extra kill, like a few others in this thread have mentioned. I know the Pokemon is tailored for OU but I have used Destiny Bond in Little Cup for ages to great effect.

I also think Spikes ought to be disallowed on the grounds that CaP2 is likely to be powerful, and a Spiker who spinblocks as well and has good offense and access to reliable recovery might be a tad much. Ditto for Magic Coat.

I think allowing Rapid Spin would be fine and maybe even good, since CaP2 can theoretically force Ghosts out with a threat of Shadow Ball and then spin to its heart's content.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

It is interesting that a few of you oppose Ingrain. I think that there is nothing wrong with CAP 2 Sketching Baton Pass, and in-fact, if we can encourage it to Sketch Baton Pass we will indeed gain further insight into what makes Baton Pass viable. IngrainPass is intriguing in that it is very hard for Baton Pass teams to come by without wasting their Smeargle on it, and so long as CAP 2 is not Baton Passing things like Shell Smash, I'm okay with it. CAP 2 is also pretty slow as far as Baton Pass goes as the Sketch target, so it wouldn't be anything to seriously write home about. (Granted, it would be the fastest IngrainPass) For this reason, I have allowed Ingrain, though I am open to having my opinion changed by cogent arguments.

Refresh is by and away the least useful of the status recovery moves as it only works on oneself. Thus, Refresh is allowed without question based on arguments. Aromatherapy and Heal Bell are a little more interesting.. Is team support really the place for CAP 2? It doesn't further the concept any, but it doesn't really hurt it. I also don't think it's particularly overpowered, but it might give it too much going on. I think, currently, that we don't want to give defensive sets too many options. For this reason, I'm going to disallow Heal Bell / Aromatherapy.

As far as phazing goes, Circle Throw and Dragon Tail are outright disallowed because of their typing and offered coverage (we actually decided this in AM, but these moves have powerful secondary effects and slipped through the cracks). This leaves Roar and Whirlwind, which in themselves aren't too bad. I don't necessarily think either of these moves helps the concept either, though, and I'm not sure that this is a role that CAP 2 should be filling. Spork raised an interesting point in that if we give CAP 2 too many base options, it will not even need Sketch. That is a problem. For this reason (like why I disallowed the two team status healing moves), I will disallow Roar / Whirlwind.

All of this disallowing leads me to think that I shall allow Synthesis / Morning Sun / Moonlight. Why? I say this because defensive sets will be presented with an interesting dilemma. They can Sketch a legitimate recovery move and have solid healing, or they can Sketch an intriguing support move and use less impressive healing. I think this is a balanced choice that defensive sets will make. Wish is a bit different because it costs multiple turns, and otherwise CAP 2's Wishes are really weak and unexciting for teammates. Wish / Protect / STAB / Toxic Spikes? Sounds poor due to needing Protect. However, note that this sort of distracts from Sketch slightly. I don't think Wish is the way we should be going here, and so Wish is disallowed. In a similar vein, I think Pain Split is actually better than people give it credit for. CAP 2 has low HP, and thus serves to gain a lot from Pain Split against big HP foes. Furthermore, SubSplit is threatening, and thus might be an issue. Pain Split, however, is just downright risky. Slightly defensive Ghosts that get it don't even always use it. SubSplit works on Gengar because it's super fast and at least has Focus Blast.. I'm not quite sold either way, but I will err on the side of putting Pain Split in Controversial. This may change down the road if/when more people post about it in specific.

@ Auraknight: I'll open up thoughts on SD and Agility at the end of this thread. Right now I want to push through the pending list before people get too disinterested. There is a lot that needs to be talked about, and I don't want to rush it and result in strange lists.

I've updated the OP with a few more moves to discuss. You'll note I'm saving Substitute for last, and for good reason.

 

[capefeather]

By far the most interesting moves left over are the entry-hazard-centric moves. I... don't see Rapid Spin being on this CAP at all, haha (then again, I thought the same thing about Tomohawk and reachzero convinced me it made sense...). In any case, it's a very powerful move on this CAP, since it hits spinblockers hard with its STAB. I think that this is too distracting from the concept to allow. The hazards are kind of similar because it emphasizes hazard stacking and I'm not sure I like that. So I guess disallow Stealth Rock / Spikes / Rapid Spin.

Switcheroo / Trick I can maybe see on a Choice Band or Choice Scarf set to cripple a check. This potentially cripples all of our designated checks, which I think kind of wrecks the viability of coverage moves that could have been put into that moveslot. On the other hand, Necturna does have to relieve herself of the Choice item. Still, I think that this affords her too much versatility to fit with the concept. Disallow Switcheroo / Trick.

The rest are barely worth bothering with. Acid Spray is honestly pretty terrible; it "helps" Necturna's lower offensive ability, and it doesn't even work against the likely Steel-type switch-ins. Knock Off quite simply sucks. Magic Coat is a bit more interesting, but it seems to me that it's going to be about as effective as Refresh. These are kind of a "might as well allow" thing...

 

[Aura Disciple]

I'd say, disallow spikes and stealth rock. We intended Necturna to put sketch to use. However, if we were to give Necturna spikes and stealth rock along with the toxic spikes it already has, it's more like the perfect set entry hazard set up along with spin-blocking powers. At that point, the sketched move is the thing faded in the background. I don't think we were aiming to make a hazard pokemon but rather something that abuses sketch...or something like that.

I'd also say, allow acid spray, as that makes sketching special moves viable, like Aura Sphere, Aeroblast, Spacial Rend, Searing Shot, Blue Flare, Draco Meteor, etc. without having to give up the sketch move for a stat-booster like our acclaimed shell smash or quiver dance. Even by giving this move, Necturna is still counterable by its counters which is what we fully intend to happen for Necturna.

 

[jas61292]

As the last two posters said, I think Spikes and Stealth Rock should be disallowed.They themselves are some of the most powerful status moves in the game, and we in order to stick true to the concept of this CAP, we need to force people to sketch these moves if they want to use them. I believe Rapid spin also falls into this category, and as such, Rapid Spin should be disallowed.

As far as Acid Spray and Knock Off, I don't think they are powerful enough or helpful enough to be overpowering, and do not detract from the concept at all. They might not be great, but there is really no reason not to allow them.

 

[SJCrew]

Stealth Rock and Spikes for disallowed. I will tell you right now that if one or both of these moves were allowed, I would not bother with offensive sets, and I will be using them + Spore so I can kill everything with Terrakion. Limits options, pushes it into 'broken' territory quite easily, and about as distracting as it gets for a bulky offensive Pokemon.

Rapid Spin is another one of those all-important supporting moves that can define a Pokemon, much the same way it does Forretress, Starmie, and Tentacruel. The way it forces her into a supporting role (SR, Rapid Spin, WoW/Spore, STAB *yawn*) can't be ignored. Disallow this as well.

I doubt Acid Spray will be any good. If people are tempted to use it, they should be able to, and possibly get some mileage out of her special attacking options (not that it will go very far with 85 base Sp. Att...). Allow this.

Most Ghosts wish they had something better than Pain Split, and Necturna won't be any different. Even 50% recovery moves should be fair game, to be honest, since it helps her explore bulky boosting options that we frankly haven't acknowledged properly for a Pokemon who's supposed to be the epitome of bulky offense. Bulk Up/Calm Mind + Recover sound very interesting. Pain Split is just another mediocre recovery option that can make her useful on a Rain or Sand team, and it will never be sketched, so I support it.

 

[Spork]

When it comes to hazards, I think we should allow Stealth Rock. Toxic Spikes are probably the least effective hazard in OU, due to the general offensiveness of the environment and the prominence of levitators, fliers and steels, but they're also the rarest in terms of pokemon that can use them, and I like that we can have a supporting niche here - I also feel like it gives a good way for Necturna to set up without using Sketch, giving Sketch moves like Spore an actual niche on her. Whilst Stealth Rock is imo significantly more effective than Toxic Spikes in terms of generally dealing damage and preventing switches, its general ubiquity in OU anyway means it probably doesn't matter too much whether we give it to Necturna or not - the main thing that gives her an edge here is her ghost typing. If a moveset of Toxic Spikes / Stealth Rock / Rapid Spin/Spore/Spikes / Filler seems too worrying, however (and it seems, to me, to be a very effective set considering typing) we could opt for mutual exclusivity between Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock. I think Stealth Rock is basically harmless on Necturna though, but still gives her a way to set up without Sketch that is very useful.

Spikes, on the other hand, are much more dangerous on a ghost type, especially considering it's a ghost type with access to spore, since rapid spin is the only way to be rid of it and most pokemon care much more about taking 25% damage on the switch than they care about being poisoned. Spikes would not only overshadow Toxic Spikes, I feel (as well at Stealth Rock - three layers is imo superior to pointed stones), but would allow Necturna to act as a very dangeous support pokemon that could reach a level of viability equal to that of its actual 'bulky offense' sets, so I'm all for disallowing Spikes.

@ SJCrew I really don't think Stealth Rock would 'open the way for a Terrakion sweep' particularly easily. Toxic Spikes don't help anyone to sweep, and Stealth Rock can be and is set up by half of OU anyway. Stealth Rock + Spore isn't even enough for Terrakion to sweep, considering that Necturna switch-ins are NOT Terrakion switch-ins, and Stealth Rock isn't enough to outright KO a fair few of his checks. Spikes is a different story though.

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Argh disallow Rapid Spin kpls. Rapid Spin is too distracting for a ghost type IMO - she sets up on most supporting hazard setters all day - and I think she would (IMO) be the best user of the move (dat Attack stat! STAB ghost and grass! Immunity to Rapid Spin herself!) and it would completely define her role as a pokemon. That's kinda what Rapid Spin DOES. You use it if you have it. Offensive sets and defensive sets alike would mostly all slash it somewhere, probably, and I don't think we want to centralise half her movesets around any moves that aren't her STAB attacks or her Sketch move. It's really distracting. It's already a very attractive Sketch move.

Knock Off is cute. My initial opinion of it is that it's pretty harmless in OU and probably wouldn't be used half the time, considering that we already have a fair few options for defensive movesets that are more attractive. That said, RD seems to have agreed that we shouldn't be giving the support sets so many favours that its Sketch options are always the same, which is similar to the philosophy we seemed to have adopted for attacking moves. That's more of a general comment than one specifically relating to Knock Off though - even with a fairly sparse movepool, suppoting Necturna probably can't give up a moveslot for it, and I don't think it would centralise her if she did (Knock Off is unique in effect, and Necturna doesn't ever want to Sketch it). Feel the same about Magic Coat. Allow...

Trick is interrrresting... Its best use is alongside a Choice item, likely Choice Scarf. I mostly feel that this could not only be the move that truly legitimises Choice sets, but is the move that encourages alternate options to V-Create and Sacred Fire, which, thanks to coverage, power, or secondary effect, tend to totally dominate attacking sets. The move that specifically becomes relevant is Close Combat, since Skarmory and common Jirachi are dealt with by Trick - it's easy to see how a set of Power Whip / (Shadow Claw/Stone Edge) / Close Combat / Trick Allows you to both kill Hydreigon and Heatran switch-ins and totally cripple Skarmory and SpD rachi switch-ins. Is this too powerful? Well, probably not. Choice Band sets have this effect, this ability to 2HKO pretty much anything, as long as your prediction is perfect; but that's just it, it's you who has to predict perfectly, not the opponent. I don't think that enhancing a choice set is going to be broken nor do I think it'll be centralising. I do think it would be used, though.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Yeah, it's unanimous. Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Rapid Spin are disallowed. I already qualified why Toxic Spikes was the only acceptable one of the lot in my first response to this thread, and everyone is right when they say that Rapid Spin would define countless sets. This should go without saying as a bad idea to let happen. I could elaborate, but it's all been said before.

I agree with the general sentiment that Acid Spray and Knock Off are nothing to write home about. It is especially relevant that Acid Spray cannot even help CAP 2 against its Steel counters since they are immune. Magic Coat is a strong move and all, but like people note, it's not terribly terrifying on CAP 2 and really wouldn't get used to great effect. I'm sure someone will try to reflect entry hazards with it, but well, good on them for it. That doesn't distract from the concept and isn't a problem. Acid Spray, Magic Coat, and Knock Off are allowed because of this.

Enhancing a Choice set is not a real problem, I don't think. It's interesting that there is some opposition to it and some support for it as well. Ultimately, I think that Trick and Switcheroo should be there for movepool authors if they really think it merits inclusion in the final movepool. It's not hurting CAP 2 at all. For this reason, Switcheroo / Trick are allowed.

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I have updated the OP with the last pending move, and the one I was saving for the end for good reason. Your first response will be: "Everything that learns TMs in the game gets Substitute!" and you'd be right (or close to it). Substitute is not a shoe-in for CAP 2, though, and I will pose a few situations where I think Substitute can really 'break' CAP 2 singlehandedly. Consider the following sets (Fortunately with Leech Seed disallowed the worst set is not here):

CAP 2 @ Leftovers
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
- Substitute
- Quiver Dance
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power Fighting

CAP 2 @ Life Orb / Leftovers
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spe, -SpA)
- Substitute
- Power Whip
- Shadow Claw / Shadow Sneak
- Sacred Fire / Close Combat

These sets all lead with Substitute, which means that CAP 2 has not divulged any information about the move it has Sketched or its strategy at all. What if you respond to a SpD-booster set with a special attacker? What if your team is defensive and you respond to the LO + 3 Attacks set with Blissey expecting QD? There are lots of situations where because of your lack of information about CAP 2, you essentially give CAP 2 two turns of free set up or free attacking. With these turns, CAP 2 can KO any of its typical counters or set up sufficiently that its counters cannot counters it anymore.

I'm not really sold on whether this is broken for CAP 2 or not yet, and that is where you come in. I want this to be discussed seriously, and I don't want Substitute treated as a shoe-in by any rights. It's not. Keep in mind the power of Substitute on a Pokemon that can be both physically oriented or specially oriented, and which has access to any one of every boosting move in the game.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Good. We've arrived at the meat and potatoes, at last.

Well, I'll start off by saying that I haven't got the faintest blinding idea whether or not Substitute is broken or not on Necturna and neither, I suspect, does anybody else really. I feel that this needs to be said before I start typing anything. Whatever my own personal views on the matter, I would be astonished if there were anyone here who could decisively "prove" the matter either way.

That said, I'm more leaning to the side of "allow" on Substitute, for now at least. Why is this? Well, I have only one real reason, and maybe some or most of you will disagree. I will begin by saying that the real difficulty here is that Necturna's Sketch ability makes its versatility the most defining and dangerous attribute. And, as I'm sure we're all aware, this is to a degree true of Substitute as well, though it also has some other attributes, principally as a safeguard. But Necturna's versatility means that it will almost always necessitate a switch - and as RD pointed out, this is essentially two free turns, with Substitute taken for granted, to do whatever the hell it likes. Substitute compounds versatility.

This is detracting from the essential point, however, which is that the concept was designed to work out what would happen if we took a competently built Pokemon and gave it a single use of Sketch. To my mind, Substitute is as integral to "a competently built Pokemon" as anything else. Let me make it quite clear that I am not referring to its traditional distribution here, but rather the effect thereof - almost every Pokemon in the game, indeed, has the capability to use this one move to scout, defend, and trick. Thus finding out what said Pokemon can do in terms of reinforcing the natural versatility of Sketch with that of Substitute is an important point - otherwise we are simply limiting the competence of Necturna lacking Sketch. One thing I should like to do is to ask myself "what would happen if this CAP were to be released without Sketch? Would it be naturally powerful, or underwhelming without its one trick?" We should, I think, be aiming for a middle ground, as implied by "competently built". I'm as interested to see what Necturna can do with Substitute as I am to see what it can do with Shell Smash, and considerably more so than Sacred Fire.

On the competitive side of things, funnily enough, Necturna cannot quite marmalise everything with two Quiver Dances under its belt and Shadow Ball/HP Fighting. Its damage output is, to be blunt, certainly not Volcarona's. Though that is to be expected. The big problem, of course, is that it outruns more or less everything with a couple of Quiver Dances, so I can see this being more troublesome against heavier offensive teams than against bulky offence. This is of course assuming that Necturna will be able to force out something on a heavy offence team, as I expect that anything that gives it free rein will be discarded for the duration of the playtest. It doesn't have Volcarona's priority resistances, that's true, but it does have unresisted coverage, albeit with 80 and 70 Base Power moves respectively. I'm not convinced that it will be broken, but it will undoubtedly be a handful. The big question here is "Will it eclipse Necturna's other sets?" If it does, then this is bad for versatility. However, it also means that Necturna's other sets suddenly become much more threatening simply for the surprise value. As for the other... I'd question why it has a Timid nature, but then more importantly, it needs a Life Orb to be severely threatening offensively, which massively cuts down on the lifespan of most Sub/LO Pokemon.

Take from this post what you will. Hopefully this thread will come back to life again.

EDIT: To clarify, I'm not happy with SubQD or any other single set or strategy archetype being overly powerful or dominant, but then I don't know that this will happen, and am willing to give Substitute a shot on the off chance that it won't be overpowered, because in that case we actually learn something (in whether Substitute can overpower a Pokemon or not, and if not, then the learning process described above also applies), whereas if we don't include Substitute, we won't learn anything in that regard.

 

[Pallas Athena]

I am in favor of allowing Substitute. Aside from flavor and the argument about a competently built Pokemon, I like to look at it from a different perspective.

I will not deny that some Substitute sets will be very good at circumventing Pokemon designated as a "check" or "counter." However, it was admitted a long time ago that if the proper hidden power or sketch moved, then CaP2 could circumvent her "counters." Substitute is simply an exception of it. If Necturna has HP Fighting and sketches a boosting move, she should be able to kill Hydreigon and Heatran substitute or not. The same goes for fire and Skarm and Ground and Jirachi/Heatran. Substitute really doesn't make such a large difference that I am willing to call CaP2 with Substitute substantially more powerful than she was to the point where she can fly past all of her counters without the proper Hidden Power of Sketch move. Therefore, I'm questioning the logic of it making her overpowered.

SubSeed is another tactic I wish to discuss. It has been admitted that one member of this combination would be allowed, and this becomes a fairly interesting point. Substitute obviously makes vatsly more sense from the perspective of precedent in movepools. Additionally, I could only see Leech Seed making one set viable by Sketch, Substitute, while Substitute somewhat increases the viability of all boosting sets and quite a few attacks via Sub+Three Attacks. Therefore, from a concept perspective if nothing else, I prefer natural Sub over natural Leech Seed anyday. CaP2 already has to take precautions that it was intended to have to take to beat her counters, so I see no reason in needlessly depriving her of a move because it might make her more difficult to play against due to mindgames.

Also, with Sub+boosting she is down to only two coverage moves, likely Shadow Ball and HP fighting. While a powerful netural coverage helps, 80 and 70 Base Power do not, even if the former gets STAB. While she could be a very tricky Pokemon to play against, I can't see her pulling a sweep with one or two boosts on the special side. On the physical side, her coverage is even worse. I can't see Sub being broken, and it might even be necessary to further the concept.

 

[GRs Cousin]

I agree with all of bugmanicbob's positive input towards allowing Substitute. It doesn't have Leech Seed or any access to recovery outside of Leftovers and maybe Pain Split, and even then, a combination like that is still underwhelming even for Dusclops, an even bulkier specially defensive Ghost-type. Even bulky users of it like Gliscor and Breloom aren't unstoppable. Hard to take down, but far from considered broken. To not allow Substitute would be not allowing an insignificant addition to its already selective movepool. There has been no Pokemon that has reached Uber status simply through its use of Substitute, and there's no reason to think that a jack-of-all-trades, king of none Pokemon will be an exception to that.

tl;dr, besides the flavor logic I'm dying to just say, Substitute would be a sub-par option that wouldn't distract from exploring Sketch and therefore should be used.

 

[Birkal]

SubSeed is another tactic I wish to discuss. It has been admitted that one member of this combination would be allowed, and this becomes a fairly interesting point. Substitute obviously makes vatsly more sense from the perspective of precedent in movepools. Additionally, I could only see Leech Seed making one set viable by Sketch, Substitute, while Substitute somewhat increases the viability of all boosting sets and quite a few attacks via Sub+Three Attacks. Therefore, from a concept perspective if nothing else, I prefer natural Sub over natural Leech Seed anyday. CaP2 already has to take precautions that it was intended to have to take to beat her counters, so I see no reason in needlessly depriving her of a move because it might make her more difficult to play against due to mindgames.

I've bolded the part of your argument that I use to justify disallowing Substitute. With access to any stat boosting move in the game or any attack, both boosting and offensive sets are going to be encouraged naturally. By adding Substitute, we're essentially increasing the viability of offensive sets even more. And in my opinion, that in unfavorable. Leech Seed, on the other hand, increases the plausibility of defensive sets and sets that aim to throw on hazards damage. By giving CAP2 Substitute, we're fating CAP2 to an offensive route that doesn't give us complete exploration of Sketch, in my opinion. Substitute will help CAP2 beat plenty of its counters, from blocking Hax Jirachi's paralysis to boosting Quiver Dances on Life Orb Hydreigon. Making what might possibly be the most unpredictable Pokemon ever even more unpredictable is a frightening thought.

 

[jas61292]

So, I really want to take a stab at that "competently built" argument. To summarize what is seems that people have said, the idea of this Pokemon was to see how Sketch works on a competently built Pokemon, and that without Substitute, the Pokemon is not competently built.

I just cannot believe that this is the truth. Wobbuffet doesn't get substitute, or most other moves for that matter, but I doubt people would argue that it is not competently built. In fact, I really don't see how an argument like this is anything but a flavor argument. Most Pokemon get it, so most Pokemon have a bunch of options thanks to it, therefore it is required to be competent? How does that logic even work? Really, there is nothing in that idea that give me even the slightest inclination to think Substitute is necessary.

However, this is not about whether or not it is necessary, but about whether or not it should be allowed. On the one hand, yes, it will certainly increase the versatility of Necturna, which is one of the interesting parts of this CAP to begin with. However, on the other hand, it has the potential to put Necturna over the top. I won't claim that it would make Necturna broken, because I have no idea if it would. But the potential is certainly there. Additionally, I actually think it distracts from the concept.

I believe back in the concept stage, one of the ideas for a project (reachzero's, if I remember correctly) was all about Substitute. Simply put, it is one of the most powerful moves in the game, and studying it would certainly be interesting. In fact, I believe we may still be able to learn a lot about this move an its influence on the game with this CAP, even without it as a central concept. However, by giving Substitute to Necturna, we are almost guaranteeing that it will be on every offensive set, and also we would be further increasing the offensive bias of Necturna. I believe we would actually learn a lot more about both Sketch and Substitute by not giving it to Necturna. As I said, Substitute is one of the most powerful moves in the game, and I can't think of any better way to study the effects of it and of Sketch then by disallowing it. If it truly is the ultimate move, we would learn about that by having people sketch it.

Overall, I just think that giving it to Necturna will distract from the main focus of sketch and furthers the potential of brokenness, and not giving it will actually help us learn even more about the power of moves. As such, I suggest that we Disallow Substitute.

 

[Pallas Athena]

I've bolded the part of your argument that I use to justify disallowing Substitute. With access to any stat boosting move in the game or any attack, both boosting and offensive sets are going to be encouraged naturally. By adding Substitute, we're essentially increasing the viability of offensive sets even more. And in my opinion, that in unfavorable. Leech Seed, on the other hand, increases the plausibility of defensive sets and sets that aim to throw on hazards damage. By giving CAP2 Substitute, we're fating CAP2 to an offensive route that doesn't give us complete exploration of Sketch, in my opinion. Substitute will help CAP2 beat plenty of its counters, from blocking Hax Jirachi's paralysis to boosting Quiver Dances on Life Orb Hydreigon. Making what might possibly be the most unpredictable Pokemon ever even more unpredictable is a frightening thought.

I would like to say that CaP2 is built offensively. While her defenses are nice, this was not meant to be a full stall Pokemon. Furthermore, any defensive set that uses Leech Seed has a very high chance of using Substitute as well. In fact, I will say that I have considered defensive sets that abused Substitute and not Leech Seed, but not the other way around. CaP2 does not have Ferrothorn's defenses that let him set up Leech Seed on ridiculous things and go with it. This means that she would inevitably need Substitute to abuse Leech Seed effectively, so arguing that natural leech seed makes defensive sets better is... interesting.

Offensive sets are another issue, but I think you're in the mentality that making offensive sets better is a bad thing. Face it: Necturna has base 120 Attack for a reason. To use offensive sets. And so what if Quiver Dance laughs at Hydreigon? Without the proper Hidden Power, she isn't doing much back and is probably getting out damaged. And for the record, Jirachi still beats Necturna one on one bar the appropriate Hidden Power or sketc move. Guess what? That's what the plan was from the beginning. I will say that substitute is extremely powerful, but cutting down coverage is annoying to say the least. And the "let's it beat or dealt counters" argument literally applies to every Pokemon to ever get Substitute and a boosting move, as well as the ability to force a switch. I still hold all of my old points and believe that Substitute should be allowed.

 

[GlassAbsol]

I actually think that Wobbuffet is an incredibly poor choice to use as your counter Argument. Wobbuffet is a wall designed to trap opponents and either destroy them with their own moves, or allow another pokemon to set up. As a case study if you were it is completely irrelevant to the subject we're on which is increasing our knowledge of the effects of sketch on the metagame. Necturna is a bulky boosting attacker, roughly speaking. Many Bulky Boosty attackers such as Gyarados or Dragonite use Substitute for some of their staple sets. Although we don't want just a Bulky, Sub-Boost pokemon, we want a versatile pokemon who can abuse Sketch to the limits. Denying it of a move that is virtually essential for a Bulky attacker would like something, I don't know, really bad.

You state that Substitute would be on virtually every set. I doubt it. Yes Substitute is a great move but there are many options to Necturna which is surely what we want. Substitute won't dominate a pokemon. Especially with many more options that would not be helped by having substitute. With only 2 Moves for coverage, assuming sub and a sketched boosting move, There are holes in the offensive aptitude of Necturna As BMB the likely candidates for coverage will be STAB Shadow Ball and HP Fighting. Now Neither of these are earth shattering. 85spA unless you're packing tail glow, you're going to fall short to anyone with a Chansey @ Eviolite (most people) and any pokemon with more than 81 speed is going seriously lay the pain before you get up another sub. Unless using Quiver Dance or Shell smash, the former isn't going to be competing with Volcarona very well then Your sub isn't going to be as useful as you might think.

Allow Substitute

Just my 2 cents, and It's probably all horribly ill-justified

 

[bugmaniacbob]

I felt compelled to respond, even though I've more or less exhausted my arguments already.

So, I really want to take a stab at that "competently built" argument. To summarize what is seems that people have said, the idea of this Pokemon was to see how Sketch works on a competently built Pokemon, and that without Substitute, the Pokemon is not competently built.

Incorrect. I said that Substitute is an integral part of most competently built Pokemon, not that competently built Pokemon had to have Substitute. There is an important difference. Nearly every Pokemon in the game has Substitute, so it seems natural that one of the questions we should be asking ourselves is how, exactly, does Substitute affect a Pokemon that can pick almost any move? For all our theorymon, we do not exactly know the answer to this, hence why I advocate the "let's find out" approach.

I just cannot believe that this is the truth. Wobbuffet doesn't get substitute, or most other moves for that matter, but I doubt people would argue that it is not competently built. In fact, I really don't see how an argument like this is anything but a flavor argument. Most Pokemon get it, so most Pokemon have a bunch of options thanks to it, therefore it is required to be competent? How does that logic even work? Really, there is nothing in that idea that give me even the slightest inclination to think Substitute is necessary.

Wobbuffet is competently built in the same way that a plastic tower held up by a helicopter and an iron cable is competently built. It's not likely to fall down, that's true, but that doesn't mean that it must therefore be an example of excellent design. Wobbuffet itself is the product of a very lacklustre Pokemon given two important tools - Shadow Tag and Encore. As has been demonstrated, Encore broke Wobbuffet's usefulness by a not inconsiderable amount. I do not believe this would have happened to any Pokemon I would describe as "competently built".

You appear to be labouring under the assumption that the entirety of this argument is based around the principle of "everything else gets it, so Necturna should get it too". This is not the case. The argument is that Substitute the move is an integral part of the way that competitive Pokemon is played, and in order to simulate the effects of giving one Sketch move to an "average" Pokemon, it seems unreasonable to discard Substitute because of fears that it may be broken, when we don't know if it will be yet.

However, this is not about whether or not it is necessary, but about whether or not it should be allowed. On the one hand, yes, it will certainly increase the versatility of Necturna, which is one of the interesting parts of this CAP to begin with. However, on the other hand, it has the potential to put Necturna over the top. I won't claim that it would make Necturna broken, because I have no idea if it would. But the potential is certainly there. Additionally, I actually think it distracts from the concept.

I am fairly certain that every single CAP that has ever been made has been called broken at some point. I will not argue the point, because I do not know what the possible consequences of Substitute are either.

I believe back in the concept stage, one of the ideas for a project (reachzero's, if I remember correctly) was all about Substitute. Simply put, it is one of the most powerful moves in the game, and studying it would certainly be interesting. In fact, I believe we may still be able to learn a lot about this move and its influence on the game with this CAP, even without it as a central concept. However, by giving Substitute to Necturna, we are almost guaranteeing that it will be on every offensive set, and also we would be further increasing the offensive bias of Necturna. I believe we would actually learn a lot more about both Sketch and Substitute by not giving it to Necturna. As I said, Substitute is one of the most powerful moves in the game, and I can't think of any better way to study the effects of it and of Sketch then by disallowing it. If it truly is the ultimate move, we would learn about that by having people sketch it.

I don't believe that anybody has claimed that Substitute is the ultimate move, and to be quite frank it is irrelevant for our purposes. Nobody is going to Sketch Substitute if it is not allowed, unless of course it's for a Leech Seed set, in which case you will be forced to forgo Sacred Fire.

I am not entirely certain how you are arguing that we will learn more about Substitute by ignoring it completely. Whether or not Substitute is there, we can make fairly accurate predictions about what will come to pass - we will still have a wide variety of offensive sets, and support sets, but some of them will have Substitute. If we have Substitute, then yes, we run the risk of making our sets offensively biased. If we do not have it, then sets will still be offensively biased, but with three attacking moves and one less turn to set up in.

The distraction point is certainly an interesting one, and I'll admit I find it rather amusing that the same reasoning I have used before, I am now arguing against. Well, I suppose the reason it has not occurred to me that Substitute is distracting is because it is, in my opinion, a move that is represents a universal strategy - that of mindgames. Substitute simply works in tandem with other moves to produce new strategies, and it is a technique that nearly any Pokemon can employ. I am beginning to repeat myself now, so I shall stop.

I will say here, very briefly, that I think we ought to be careful about how far we go in terms of "manufacturing" Necturna. It is already doubtless that we have tried to shape Necturna to our vision of how it should turn out, but remember that we are supposed to be learning something here, which will not happen if we take out everything that has the slightest chance to derail the CAP from our immediate expectations.

The point here is that we are learning something regardless of whether Substitute is there or not. The difference is that what we are learning essentially refers to two different Pokemon. I am of the opinion that the way that the move Substitute interacts with the rest of the Pokemon's movepool is a part of how Pokemon the game works, and that to not include Substitute is to remove an element of doubt that would be a factor for almost any other Pokemon. I think I am right in saying that you believe that this does not matter, and that only what we have specifically created should be judged based on the Sketch move, such that the traditional Pokemon build is irrelevant. This is a perfectly fine stance to take; however, there is no direct way to compare the two views objectively.

Sorry for the incoherent response - it's late here. I await the storm of flaming and walls of text in the morning with bated breath.

 

[Bughouse]

My two cents: Allow Substitute for now at least. This concept is complicated enough, and I can't begin to Theorymon about Substitute. Therefore, I think we should allow it, and if it becomes apparent that it is used on all of the best sets, we can revisit the allowance of Substitute later, no?

Haven't previous CAPs had moves added/removed from movepool after initial playtesting?

 

[Birkal]

Offensive sets are another issue, but I think you're in the mentality that making offensive sets better is a bad thing. Face it: Necturna has base 120 Attack for a reason. To use offensive sets. And so what if Quiver Dance laughs at Hydreigon? Without the proper Hidden Power, she isn't doing much back and is probably getting out damaged. And for the record, Jirachi still beats Necturna one on one bar the appropriate Hidden Power or sketc move. Guess what? That's what the plan was from the beginning. I will say that substitute is extremely powerful, but cutting down coverage is annoying to say the least. And the "let's it beat or dealt counters" argument literally applies to every Pokemon to ever get Substitute and a boosting move, as well as the ability to force a switch. I still hold all of my old points and believe that Substitute should be allowed.

It's true that Leech Seed doesn't have as much utility as it does on Ferrothorn, but I'm arguing against Substitute more than I am advocating Leech Seed. I also will admit that you are right in that Substitute won't stop Jirachi; Iron Head has more than enough power to break through it. However, Hidden Power Fighting on the Quiver Dance set will beat Hydreigon. By setting up a Substitute on the switch, 252 SpA+ CAP2 can set up a Quiver Dance and OHKO with Hidden Power Fighting (the one you recommended) the majority of the time after Stealth Rock damage. In my opinion, that's getting a bit too risky. It's fine if you don't think so, but the threat is out there.

But at the heart of this debate lies the purpose of CAP2, in my opinion. I've bolded the part of your post that I find faulty in terms of CAP2. Way back in Concept Assessment, Rising_Dusk made this post on how we should look at Sketch. It was agreed that we should support and encourage maximum usage of Sketch, from boosting moves to offensive moves to supportive moves. While the stats would infer a offensive semi-bulky Pokemon, there is more than meets the eye: efforts have been made to increase the diversity of Sketch. Its Ghost-typing has lent towards its ability to block spinning from the hazards it lays down. I believe that there should be more efforts in this direction; boosting sets will naturally come about, Substitute or no Substitute. However, we will need to a bit of work to expand CAP2's direction towards defensive sets. In my opinion, allowing Substitute discourages defensive sets and encourages offensive sets, which I don't think is something our Concept Assessment stood for. That's why I am still in favor of disallowing Substitute. Again, this is all my personal opinion! It's difficult to be objective about this part of the discussion.

 

[Soulous]

I really don't really see how the sub QD is even that threatening. First of all, you shouldn't be switching in blissey to Nectura since it could be running a physical set and wasn't even a designated counter or check to begin with. Additionally, almost of all of the checks (except hydreigon without dark pulse) can switch in and beat the QD AND 3 attacks set unless heavily weakened. Sp def. Heatran isn't even 3hkoed by +1 hp fighting and 2 or 3hkoes with lava plume or offensive heatran OHKO with max sp atk fire blast even when Nectura is at +1 sp def. Jirachi beats obviously beats qd sets (except hp ground i guess...). Skarmory can phaze nectura or just OHKO it due to sub with bravebird while nectura fails to do much back. While one could make the argument that Nectura could just attack and not boost to wear down its counter, the sub usually hurts Nectura just as much as it does to its counters with weak power fighting. Not to mention a qd nectura using hp fighting is horribly countered and revenged by scizor once you know its running it. I really fail to see how sub is very threatening at all. I only reason why I can see sub being disallowed is because it might bias Nectura towards offensive sets (what Birkal said). Still, the CAP focus is bulky offense so I don't see the problem.

Also, I don't think allowing leech seed along with sub is really that bad either. Heatran and Hydreigon can still simply switch in and force it out on the seed or sub. Skarmory and Jirachi only lose if it runs sacred fire in which case it should be allowed to beat them since its using its sketch slot for it. While it does "weaken" its counters on the switch in, it probably weakens them less than just using a random coverage move (stone edge, hp fighting) on the switchin. The only way I can see Nectura stalling out its counters is if somehow you not only gave Nectura a free sub but also let them leech seed your counter on the switch with its sub up, which is not possible if you just switch in one of the designated counters in on the first turn Nectura comes out.

 

[Deck Knight]

For those of you saying Substitute aids offensive sets:

We decided on Bulky Offense, not Stall.

Erego even if Substitute did exclusively boost offensive sets (it doesn't. SubSeed is quite potent with its resistances/immunities, low HP, and high defenses), it would be perfectly in line with what we want.

 

[Camisado]

Though I know this statement is not logically sound, considering we labeled Forewarn as a "non-competitive ability" but it may be noteworthy to mention that Forewarn can tell the player ifthe defending poke can break the Sub.