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Consider the stat spread: 30/60/150/60/150/150, having 600 BST. Would you think that this stat spread is better than 95/100/90/100/90/80, having 555 BST? I guess you can tell me "depends on what the Pokemon is designed to do", but, considering attacking and defensive prowess, it is worse, even though it has a full 45 stat points more. BSR, however, correctly states that the first stat spread has a BSR of 271, while the second stat spread has a BSR of 321. So, BST correlates to BSR? I don't think so.
The problem is that the first stat spread is preposterous. No real Pokemon has a stat spread like that. Exaggerated stats tend to cause BST to decorrelate from BSR, yes, but for real Pokemon, BST and BSR are in lock step with each other. To demonstrate...
You'll see that Pokemon cluster around that line. The only clear outliers occur at BST 600, and they are the 4 forms of Deoxys, a Pokemon that, in fact, has such ridiculously exaggerated stats. CaP Pokemon are supposed to be like real Pokemon. Why should we ignore this obvious trend?
Further, why should a stat spread with 600 BST, which does its job no better than a stat spread with 555 BST, be considered on equal footing with the 555 BST spread? The 555 BST spread clearly allocates its stats more effectively. A small difference is no big deal, like 545 vs 550, but if a spread is doing a similar job with far fewer stat points, it is the better spread.
In case anyone was interesting, I added three or four extra damage calcs to my post and threw in a few paragraphs as to my views and opinions on the spread
On this topic about 101 Subs, it it really a big deal?
101 Subs only are a major thing against Damage=Level moves. You'll never see Night Shade [And even then, Ghosts have no businesses being in v a Dark type], and only Blissey, who has no business being in on CAP11 in the first place, ever uses Seismic Toss.
There's no need to inflate the HP stat so that it's possible to make 101 Subs, especially at the costs of the defenses. We're not making Krillowatt, this thing isn't supposed to be flexiable defensivly, it's supposed to be able to defeat Togekiss' threats. Higher defesive stats are arguably the better choice for CAP11. Giving CAP11 high HP and low defenses may make it so that it can only take on Physical or special threats. Not both.
Anyway, I'm going to submit a spread of my own as well.
65/90/105/100/105/101
Physical Sweepiness: 160 [Rank 6] Physical Tankiness: 141 [Rank 5] Special Sweepiness: 180 [Rank 7] Special Tankiness: 139 [Rank 5]
Base Stat Rating: 345 [Very Good]
HP: 65
This gives 271 HP with 0 EV's. For anyone wondering, it's the same as Chimecho.
Attack: Base 90
216 Attack with 0 EV's and a neutral nature.
Defense: Base 105
246 Defense with Neutral, and 0 EV's. It's SLIGHTLY more physically bulky than Claydol, for comparison, and Claydol's no lightweight.
Sp.Attack: Base 100
Base 95 gives CAP11 the same Sp.Attack as Jirachi on a neutral nature with no investment. This means it packs a decent punch as it is, and if there's a NastyPass involved, it'll hit hard.
Sp.Def: 105
This is the same as Mismagius. 246 with Neutral and no EV's. Again, 5 more base HP makes CAP11 slightly more specially bulky than Mismagius.
Speed: 101
Yes, it's an absolute troll speed, but it allows CAP11 to outspeed any varient of Zapdos, except some weird Scarf Zapdos, and hit it with Stone Edge before it Roosts [Because how many fighting-types don't get Stone Edge?]. Too much speed, and NastyPassing becomes broken. We want something to be able to stop it, and Infernape seems like a sensible choice.
Short Version: 65/90/105/100/105/101
Slightly more bulky than Claydol and Mismagius physical and Special, respectivly.
Same Sp.Attack as Jirachi, same Attack as Darkrai.
Enough speed to ensure Zapdos is outspead, but not so that nothing can stop Nastypass.
No chance of a 2HKO with rocks down, given Leftovers.
In retaliation:
252/0 Neutral CAP11 With Stone Edge v Standard BulkyZapdos:
140~166 Damage
36.5%~ 43.3%
Chance for a 2HKO with rocks down, provided Zapdos dosen't Roost [AKA, Zapdos switches in on CAP11's Stone Edge]
With a Boosting Nature:
152~180 damage
39.6% ~ 46.9%
Zapdos cannot safely switch in on CAP11 with rocks down. This should be enough to detter it from switching in, and thus, gives Togekiss a chance to switch in and Paralyse/Nasty Plot/ whatever else Togekiss does. Zapdos also cannot 2HKO CAP11 with Thunderbolt.
Against Timid Choice Scarf Rotom-A, the same set:
Takes from Thunderbolt:
130 ~ 152
Rotom-A has a chance to 2HKO CAP11 on the switch, with no investment in HP or Sp.Def. However, it's likly CAP11 willl run some Sp.Def or HP anyway, as the fastest thing it's going to need to outspeed is Zapdos. I'm unsure as to the optimun spread though.
Deals with Crunch/ with Max and Boosting v Bulky Rotom-A:
168~198
Clean 2HKO on Scarf Rotom. [Deals over 200 at least], and a clean 2HKO on Bulky Rotom with Rocks down, as well as a decent chance even without them. Crunch is the more likly move, as Max Attack allows you to 2HKO Zapdos as well.
Finally, the potency of Close Combat:
Vs Standard WishBliss, with Max and Boosting:
608~ 716 damage.
A small chance for a OHKO without the rocks, and a large chance with them. Slight chance Blissey will survive, but it's next switch in will kill it in that event. Certain 2HKO, rocks or not.
v ScarfTar:
616~732 Damage
Can kill Tryanitar twice over.
Just for the fun of it: Focus Blast from same CAP11 V Standard Skarmory
174~205, a high chance of a 2HKO without rocks... if Focus Blast actually hits both times. Certain 2HKO with rocks, even with Leftovers
My Stat spread, combined with the stronger physical moves CAP11 gets, encourages a physical set, unless you're receiving a NastyPass, although mixed and special sets have their merits, such as Dark Pulse getting a sure 2HKO on Rotom, and Focus Blast + CC actually being able to defeat SkarmBliss.
Remember, ALL of these calcs were done using Leftovers. In fact, all of these numbers could be reached with the following set:
CAP11@ Leftovers
Lonley Nature [+Attack, - Def. - Sp.Def will make Zapdos 2HKO you]
252 Attack, 252 Speed, 4 HP
-Close Combat
-Focus Blast
-Stone Edge
-Crunch
Yoki, High HP/ mid defenses is a "gaming" of the calculator, I should know since I'm the best at exploiting it without losing spread marketability. (A bit of an arrogant statement I suppose, but I am responsible for the last 3 stat spreads, though Colossoil and Krillowatt are where I actively used it moreso than just stumbling upon it.)
The example you used is intensely flawed.
Let's not, because the high HP spread is at a mathematical disadvantage (142 tankiness). The two spreads do not have equal (or near equal) tankiness. There is a point where more HP does not adequately make up for a lack of defense. So just pumping HP at the expense of defenses does not always work.
I explained that I am fully aware of that, and that's why I only gave it a 142 tankiness (and only 320 overall rating). I know HP is slightly superior, but as long as I take that into account and make a spread globally inferior to the maximum allowed (92/90/90), I am NOT abusing BSR's mechanics.
BST isn't really completely irrelevant. Firstly, if you plot BSR vs BST, you'll see that BSR has a 98% correlation with BST. In fact, just divide your BST by 30 and square it and you get a pretty good approximation of your BSR. Further, BSRs vary widely over OU, pretty much as much as BSTs vary over OU. While I respect X-Act's work, BSR is not that wonderful of a measurement of a Pokemon's ability.
It is, because we don't even look at it when creating CAP. We use BSR as a first approximation, then the TL chooses one spread based on its calcs, not BST, not BSR. If you can show that my high HP spread is overpowered compared to a 149 tankiness spread or to an equivalent 149 OR spread, please do so and I will reconsider it, but until then I really don't see how I am "gaming the mechanics". Just look at my comparison calcs : I used high HP to nerf this CAP, making it inferior to a 149 tankiness spread with every EV spread but one. 101HP substitute is a very minor advantage, as Blissey won't be staying in against a Fighting CAP anyway, and it definitely doesn't make up for the loss of overall bulk and inability to boost both of its defenses with HP EVs.
Really, this is just one detail, I've put a lot of thinking in my spread and made many calcs, so please don't overlook it simply because of the odd defense stats. Look at the calcs on my first posts and you will see it accomplish a very specific purpose. It let it beat most of Togekiss' counters both with defensive and offensive sets, but prevent the offensive ones from being broken.
My stat spread submission is intended to reflect the offensive nature of this CAP.
65 HP / 85 Atk / 70 Def / 105 SpA / 110 SpD / 115 Spe
Ratings:
PS: 155 Very Good (6)
PT: 95 Below Average (3)
SS: 197 Excellent (7)
ST: 146 Good (5)
BSR: 326: Very Good (6)
BST: 550
What immediately differentiates this spread from some of the others is the defenses--unlike most spreads, which focus on the ability to stick around, this spread is designed to hit hard, survive at least one of nearly any special attack without making CAP11 so hard to kill that we all tear our hair out during playtesting. For instance, while this spread takes only 70.6% - 83.1% from a Specs Jolteon Thunderbolt, it takes 79.8% - 94.1% from a Choice Band Scizor Bullet Punch. Base 115 speed is important because it helps CAP11 significantly as a Baton Pass recipient to be no slower than Starmie. CAP11 can switch into ScarfTar by virtue of its typing, but being no faster helps in terms of allowing ScarfTar to check CAP11, an important balance when considering a fast Special Attacker.
Oy, somehow I think that I'll regret posting this.
EDIT:
<%JibaNOTHERE> cape: use 135 speed [as opposed to 131]
<capefeather> is there a reason other than "divisible by 5"
<%Rising_Dusk> "Not completely obvious that you're only using 131 to outspeed Jolteon?"
<%Rising_Dusk> I am reminded of Stratagem.
<%Rising_Dusk> Many people then argued for 131 Speed to beat Aerodactyl.
<%JibaNOTHERE> does 135 speed give you a higher bsr?
<%Rising_Dusk> And look at what won.
<capefeather> fine
60 HP / 90 Atk / 115 Def / 85 SpA / 115 SpD / 135 Spe
I figured that I might as well post a spread that attempts to beat Jolteon without resorting to system-abusing bulk, Volt Absorb, Motor Drive or priority moves (CAP 11 needs 120 Atk / 80 Spe or slower, or Sucker Punch, to hope for a KO on Jolteon with priority... yeah, I'd rather not). The other big feature here is that I've sacrificed Special Attack for more Speed in comparison to the other spreads. This spread is intended for a mainly physical attacker because the Type-Move requirement Taunt allows much leeway into how CAP 11 interacts with physical walls that are probably not switched in yet (because Togekiss was out).
While I didn't pay a lot of attention to the restrictive effects of the spread when I was thinking about it, it turns out that the resource management becomes quite important with the spread - it's like four-moveslot syndrome, except it affects every controllable aspect of the Pokémon. Should I use Life Orb to gain necessary power to beat some of the bulkier switch-ins, or should I use Leftovers for more breathing room? Should I use Taunt for an advantage against physical walls, or Stone Edge to hurt Zapdos/Heracross, or Earthquake / Fire Punch to beat Jirachi? Should I run bulk or Adamant/Lonely nature, accepting the loss to Jolteon? Limited resources should balance out the scary-looking Speed stat.
When I was contemplating the HP/Defenses spread, I looked to #cap for advice (it was morning so not a lot of people were on, but anyways). I was originally looking to counteract the high HP craze of other spreads with low HP and high defenses (something like 47/131/131). I was told just to make the HP/defenses ratio balanced to avoid controversy. 60/115/115 means that CAP 11 needs 252+ on a defense stat to (approximately) match the HP. I guess that's what they meant by "balanced". "Balanced-looking" just doesn't appeal to me.
CAP 11 @ Leftovers
4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe Jolly
- Close Combat
- Crunch
- Stone Edge
- Taunt
(I'm using Leftovers to save space because it's easier to multiply by 1.3 than it is to multiply by 10/13. Also there are going to be OTHER CAP 11s so 208 Spe is probably not that great an idea.)
LO Jolteon Thunderbolt: 61.3% - 72.4%
Leftovers Thunderbolt: 47.1% - 55.6%
CAP 11 Close Combat: 84.9% - 100.4%
0 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt: 41.8% - 49.8%
CAP 11 Stone Edge vs 248/228: 36.6% - 43.3% (needs Life Orb)
vs SubRoost: 48.8% - 58%
252 Timid Rotom-A Thunderbolt: 45.2% - 54% (Leftovers would help here)
CAP 11 Crunch: 79.7% - 94.6% (...maybe not)
Defensive Rotom-A Thunderbolt: 36% - 42.9%
CAP 11 Crunch: 50% - 59.2% (needs Adamant for a guaranteed 2HKO)
Sub+CM Jirachi +1 Flash Cannon: 47.5% - 56.3%
vs -1 CAP 11: 71.3% - 83.9%
CAP 11 Close Combat: 37.9% - 44.8%
Life Orb Close Combat: 49.3% - 58.2%
Adamant Life Orb Close Combat: 53.7% - 63.4%
SD Lucario +2 ExtremeSpeed: 75.1% - 88.5%
CAP 11 Close Combat: 145.2% - 171.5% (yeah)
Agility Lucario Close Combat: 168.6% - 200% (can't be helped)
CAP 11
Stone Edge vs 0/0 Dragonite: 55.1% - 65% (KO after Close Combat)
-1 Stone Edge vs 0/4 Gyarados: 41.7% - 49.5% (KO after Close Combat with Life Orb)
Crunch vs 4/0 Gengar: 117.6% - 139.7%
vs 252/0 Roserade: 50.9% - 60.2% (needs Life Orb for a near-guaranteed KO after Close Combat)
vs 252/0 Azelf: 76.8% - 91.5% (needs Life Orb to be certain)
vs Tinkerbell Celebi: 51.1% - 60.7% (needs Life Orb to KO after Close Combat)
vs 136/156 Starmie: 67.1% - 79.3% (near-guaranteed KO after Close Combat)
For the hell of it:
CAP 11 Drill Peck (lol) vs 0/0 Heracross: 114.3% - 135.5% (LOL)
And of course:
CAP 11 Close Combat vs WishBliss: 77.6% - 91.6% (needs Life Orb to OHKO)
Defensive threats and checks/counters:
CAP 11 Crunch vs 252/4 Gliscor: 23.7% - 28.2%
0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake: 35.6% - 41.8% (check)
CAP 11 Crunch vs 252/228 Dusknoir: 40.8% - 49%
28 Atk Dusknoir Earthquake: 25.3% - 29.9% (with prior damage / CC drop it could work out for Dusknoir)
vs 252/120 Tentacruel: 33.8% - 39.8%
0 SpA Tentacruel Surf: 29.1% - 34.5% (if CAP 11 bothers to Taunt, Tentacruel could win)
vs 252/220 Celebi: 37.6% - 44.6%
0 SpA Celebi full power Grass Knot: 44.1% - 52.1% (check)
CAP 11 Close Combat vs 252/176 Skarmory: 27.8% - 32.6%
64 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird: 78.9% - 94.3% (counter but it may be heavily damaged and/or Taunted)
CAP 11 Close Combat vs Agiligross: 36.8% - 43.8% (needs Life Orb for a chance to beat it, Adamant for a guaranteed win)
Lum Berry Agiligross Meteor Mash vs -2 CAP 11: 125.3% - 147.5%
These are the threats I considered when "testing" the spread. Other calculations could be made, but I feel that it's unnecessary.
Okay, I've selected my slate. I am sorry to those that did not make it, but I really do appreciate the effort put into the spreads. The poll will be up soon.
