CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 3 - Secondary Typing Poll

[Fuzznip]

Pick one of the two types for Togekiss's Perfect Mate's secondary type. Remember:

• We will not allow posts in this topic such as "I voted typing." Put some substance into your post.

Our CAP so far:

Name: Perfect Mate

General Description: Pick a good-but-not-great OU pokemon, and design the perfect teammate for it, similar to the way Celebi & Heatran, or Blissey & Skarmory complement each other so well on competitive teams.

Justification:
This would allow us to explore in detail how synergy between two pokemon can be achieved, because currently there are only a few perfect teammates in OU. And depending on the base pokemon we choose to give a "perfect mate", we can open a new niche in the metagame based around the efficient pairing.
The niche we create will be inherently tied to an existing pokemon in the metagame, which should provide a natural limitation to prevent this concept from being broken or "too different" from standard OU.

Questions To Be Answered:

• Is the base pokemon's usefulness (and usage) in the metagame increased as a result of having a "perfect mate"?
• What strategies are more effective for the base pokemon, as a result of having a perfect teammate?
• What are the most effective aspects of the new pokemon, for purposes of making a great teammate with the base pokemon?
• Is the new pokemon viable in the metagame without the base pokemon as a teammate

Main Type: Fighting

 

[capefeather]

Honestly, they're not all that different, but Rock has the Sandstorm boost and doesn't get annoyed as much by Heracross, so... yeah.

 

[EdgeHead]

I think Fighting/Dark is the best we're gonna get. The fighting weakness stings, but like someone else suggested, slap a Rotom on your team and you're good to go.

 

[firecape]

I think both are viable typings but Dark has the bonus of beating Rotom and only giving 2 weaknesses, one of which is rarely used (flying). Dark-Fighting also hits everything but Heracross and Toxicroak for neutral, neither of the aforementioned Pokemon like Togekiss though. Also, Dark offers a nice 4x resist to pursuit allowing for easy set-up, and doesn't have a pesky weakness to Scizor's BP.

 

[The_Third_Try]

The choice all depends on if you want to counter Rotom or Zapdos. Since there are more Rotom in OU I chose Dark\Fighting:

Edit: It also deals with Starmie, so that's a plus.

 

[WaffleChan]

Well alittle late to CaP thus far but anyways after reading the discussion thread just in time to see it closed (a good decision though I wouldn't call the choices open minded but the past is the past and all we can do is learn from it) I'm dissapointed Electric didn't make it. You can teach offense but not defense. And on that basis I'm voting Dark. It brings only a Fighting weakness at the cost of Bug neutrality. Which isn't a big deal by any stretch of the imagination. Rock, I believe, is deprimental to the concept of this cap as it brings not only a Fighting weakness to the table but also a water and possibly worst of all, a steel weakness. That in the fact that Togekiss does not enjoy Sandstorm (which would be utilized if CaP 11 be a Rock type), I've come to the conclusion that Rock doesn't help this CaP at all.

Offensively, Dark also gives us STAB pursuit and helps deal with Rotom which I believe is more important than taking down Zapdos with (mostly unreliable) rock attacks.

 

[hyperbeem]

Though I wanted ground, Im going to go with dark because it still covers ice, beats rotom, and covers up its psychic weakness. Rock can hit flying and ape but it comes down almost to a choice between covering rotom or zapdos. I think we know which one is more common.

 

[Scoopapa]

I think Rock is the way to go. The weaknesses make it really want to be paired with a partner (instead of as a standalone sweeper), and the SpDef boost in Sandstorm should help against Rotom, Zapdos, and some Blissey; Dark only helps against Rotom. Both are awesome STAB combos, but Fighting/Dark doesn't seem to need Togekiss, while Fighting/Rock certainly does. I think we're getting the "needs moar awesome!" syndrome and forgetting about the concept - which could ultimately lead to another "omfg pwns you!" CAP that doesn't really fulfill the concept as much as it just rapes. If I understood the recent Smogcast, we were trying to move away from this type of thing.

To clarify, Fighting/Dark probably makes a better pokemon, but Fighting/Rock will be better for the concept. I really don't want to see this just become a random, awesome pokemon that ends up leaving Togekiss in the dust. Just take a look through this thread and tally up reasons for making the pokemon awesome vs. reasons for making it a good mate to Togekiss.

 

[Bughouse]

I guess I will vote Dark because Fighting/Dark has great coverage and on the defensive side it takes Super Effective hits only from Flying and Fighting. Flying is unseen and Fighting moves can say hello to Rotom/Gengar/Dusknoir/Gliscor etc etc. Rock instead adds weaknesses to Water and Grass.

Plus, if I have the choice to make Ghosts the "problem" or Zapdos the "problem", I have to ignore Zapdos as it is already dented by SR and is not used very often compared to the three OU Ghosts combined.

 

[Griffin Rich]

Well, I guess I moved over to the dark side... It was hard to convince myself to vote either way, but the ability to take out Rotom and NOT rely on a sandstorm (which would just be terrible for Kiss synergy wise) erred me to dark.

 

[hyperbeem]

Wow, by the time I posted someone else posted the same thing basically so I guess I should give more reasons. Dark can hit gengars with thunderbolt and zapdos can be beaten by blissey and a bunch of other pokes. I just don't see rock offering much help.

 

[SJCrew]

Just so you guys know, this non-negotiable Fighting weakness is going to have a huge effect on the Togekiss/CAP duo. Togekiss can't switch in on any OU Fighting type safely and CAP isn't going to take them on even if it has Defense like Steelix. Having to add a compulsory Ghost member will either make this an effective trio, or just a plain ineffective duo.

This poll is a double-edged sword. Rock attracts EQ and Grass, which Togekiss will enjoy a lot, but then we'd have to pussyfoot around every Fighting and bulky Water type in existence. It's going to be very difficult for this CAP to function if it dons Rock as its secondary typing.

Dark beats Rotom and...nothing else. No synergy with Togekiss whatsoever. I'm really not seeing why Fuzz chose this.

I don't think either option is going to help this duo very much. Ground was a way, way better choice for primary typing and it was wonderful synergy with Togekiss's Flying coverage. Slap Electric on that to attract EQ and repel bulky Waters, then we're good to go.

 

[familyguyman]

I'll try and rationalize this for other people who are interested:

Fighting/Dark:
Only resisted by Heracross and Toxicroak offensively. Hits key targets like Rotom and Steel types (and Blissey) hard. Good coverage and move selection; a lot of "gimmick" moves.

Immune: Psychic
Resists: Rock, Ghost, Dark (4x)
Neutral: Bug, Fire, Water, Ice, Ground, Dragon, Steel, Poison, Grass, Normal, Electric
Weak to: Flying, Fighting

Decent resists, mostly neutral hits and only one true key weakness.


Fighting/Rock:
Only resisted by Gallade, Toxicroak, Claydol, Nidoking/queen aka nothing in OU. Hits some key things like Zapdos, Dragonite/Salamence, Gyarados very hard. Extremely good coverage; pure power.

Resists: Rock, Poison, Fire, Normal, Bug, Dark
Neutral: Flying, Ice, Dragon, Ghost, Electric
Weak to: Psychic, Fighting, Ground, Water, Grass, Steel

Odd typing in that it resists a lot but is weak to a lot.



Neither mesh that well defensively, but Dark gets the edge. It also helps more offensively against Rotom, a very important threat to various Togekiss sets.

I'm going Dark.

 

[Sparky Young Upstart]

OK, I'm going to post this fully aware that I might sound like an idiot.

I've been hanging around the forums for a while now, but only recently got an account because I was hoping to at least vote on some of the CAP stuff and try and get a better insight on the whole meta game. So forgive me if I don't know completely what I'm talking about.

Yes, Dark and Rock are very good types for this Pokemon, but so is Electric. It received a lot of support in the discussion thread, and unlike dragon (which I could tell wouldn't work) I saw it as a viable option. And yet it's not up here. I already saw someone express that it works better.

So here comes the thing that will probably get me banned after one post: Isn't it convenient that Fuzznip did not support electric, and it didn't end up on the poll?

I'm pretty sure that it got enough support to merit giving it a chance. Just because you don't like it, TL, doesn't mean you get to keep it off the poll.

I understand if I'm out of line. If you feel I should be banned, then do what you must. But I think this needed to be said.

 

[NARFNra]

OK, I'm going to post this fully aware that I might sound like an idiot.

I've been hanging around the forums for a while now, but only recently got an account because I was hoping to at least vote on some of the CAP stuff and try and get a better insight on the whole meta game. So forgive me if I don't know completely what I'm talking about.

Yes, Dark and Rock are very good types for this Pokemon, but so is Electric. It received a lot of support in the discussion thread, and unlike dragon (which I could tell wouldn't work) I saw it as a viable option. And yet it's not up here. I already saw someone express that it works better.

So here comes the thing that will probably get me banned after one post: Isn't it convenient that Fuzznip did not support electric, and it didn't end up on the poll?

I'm pretty sure that it got enough support to merit giving it a chance. Just because you don't like it, TL, doesn't mean you get to keep it off the poll.

I understand if I'm out of line. If you feel I should be banned, then do what you must. But I think this needed to be said.

The TL gets most of the power over the CAP. If you don't like his choices, then don't bother posting about it. Just go with what he does and that's basically it. If it was something major or against the process then it might be resolved, but he hasn't done anything that's an offense. He just chose which types to put. Stop complaining and vote please.

 

[FlareBlitz]

..it's not "convinient". He's the TL, of course things he doesn't support aren't going to make it into the poll.

After much consideration, I finally decided on Fighting/Dark. The only thing that really attracted me towards Rock was the Sandstorm special defense boost, which really helps with tanking Electric hits, but on balance I think the fact that Dark has much more reliable STAB (crunch/dark pulse > fail edge) and lacks bulky water issues makes it more appealing in my eyes.
Of course I would have preferred it if some other options made it in here but hey, not much to be done about that now.

 

[shrang]

Given consideration of the discussion we've seen in previous threads, it should be noted that Rock is better if you want a bulky attacker alongside Togekiss. However, I've always thought the CAP should be offensive as hell, and Fighting/Dark is probably the two best STABs alongside Fighting/Ghost, so I voted Dark.

 

[IronTusk]

I also would have preferred the option for */Electric, but I went ahead with a vote for */Dark. Unique typing with fantastic STAB coverage, eats Rotom and Gengar for breakfast, only one significant weakness (which technically isn't shared with 'Kiss), and a potentially cool design concept. I look forward to the artwork a Fighting/Dark would inspire.

 

[Deck Knight]

OK, I'm going to post this fully aware that I might sound like an idiot.

Mission accomplished.

I've been hanging around the forums for a while now, but only recently got an account because I was hoping to at least vote on some of the CAP stuff and try and get a better insight on the whole meta game. So forgive me if I don't know completely what I'm talking about.

Apparently you've not been lurking long enough.

Yes, Dark and Rock are very good types for this Pokemon, but so is Electric. It received a lot of support in the discussion thread, and unlike dragon (which I could tell wouldn't work) I saw it as a viable option. And yet it's not up here. I already saw someone express that it works better.

If you had just posted this you would have been fine. You don't have to support everything the TL chooses, most people feel a poor choice was made somewhere along the way.

So here comes the thing that will probably get me banned after one post: Isn't it convenient that Fuzznip did not support electric, and it didn't end up on the poll?

I'm pretty sure that it got enough support to merit giving it a chance. Just because you don't like it, TL, doesn't mean you get to keep it off the poll.

I understand if I'm out of line. If you feel I should be banned, then do what you must. But I think this needed to be said.

No, being TL does mean you get to select slates, regardless of the support of other options in the thread. If you had attempted to gain even cursory knowledge of the process that would have been fine. Groupthink does not necessarily lead to the best results, which is why the Strong TL model was implemented. Fortunately most people don't get banned for one instance of gross ignorance and pretention.

Furthermore based on the last polls I will be policing these threads much more actively. On a more general note, be aware that Fuzznip is also a CAP moderator and does have the power to infract you if you threadhog or insult other users/troll in general. Needless to say I'm always watching as well and will call you out on it.

I would appreciate if everyone stopped second-guessing Fuzz. Polls will be done when they get done. If discussions go nowhere, perhaps your haste in ending them instead of further contributing is the cause.

 

[Aqueos]

I voted Dark. Both are weak to fighting, but I liked the psychic immunity and no weakness to water, turning starmie into the end of this duo. However, this seems a little rushed, especially skipping all the way to two types.....

 

[Master of the Six Kings]

I'm rather dissapointed an option was provided that wasn't weak to Fighting. Not the end of the world and I understand where these options would come about as the top presented when the previous thread went totally Defensive core rather than Offensive core. Togekiss will just have to woman up and take more Fighting attacks for the team >_>

Have to vote for Dark. 1 uncommon weakness and near perfect coverage is far superior to 5 rather common weaknesses with a Sandstorm boost and slightly less-perfect coverage.

 

[Chateau]

Sorry about the three sentence post, but I've been banging my head against a wall for a while trying to emphasize that Togekiss must benefit CAP11, and Fighting/Dark doesn't have any counters that Togekiss can switch into, much less check. Fighting/Rock, however is weak to Earthquake, as well as Grass moves. Togekiss can come in on both of these, relieving CAP11 of the weakness. The afformentioned Sandstom boost is optional, probably for countering specific bulky waters.

Also, as I previously mentioned, Fighting/Dark will destroy Celebi, which is something we do not want, as it will help Gyarados while doing nothing useful for Kiss. Fighting/Dark makes CAP11 closer to the danger of being a GyaraPartner.

As for "Fighting isn't really a Togekiss" weakness, Togekiss cannot switch into any STAB fighting moves in OU, so I'd call it an honorary weakness.

Again, I apologize for the short post, but it's all been said before.

 

[Wikey]

Voted Rock. I feel like there probably were one or two types that were viable enough to go with two polls again. With the way Fuzznip is running this in such a timely manner it wouldn't have slowed things down too much. Can't be too mad since the type I like most made the poll.

Anyway, to whoever is discounting the SpD boost Rock gets because Kiss doesn't like sand: Ttar is top OU and is going to be used by your opponent whether you like it or not. Add Hippo into the mix and the forecast looks good for sand.

Please remember what reachzero said. CAP11 and kiss don't need to sweep teams by themselves. If we go with Rock and the opponent brings in one of CAP11's weaknesses Kiss can't handle, well, that's why you have four other Pokémon. But when your opponent tries to take CAP11 down with Ground or Grass you get to bring Kiss out to play. Dark doesn't have this. Dark has one weakness and it's not something Kiss can come in on. Yes you have 4 other Pokémon to handle Fighting but with a Dark CAP11 you never get that free switch to Kiss.

Please pick Rock. The only real drawback is the Bullet Punch weak but if your team can't handle Scizor you've got bigger issues. And I know it's been said but it stands to be repeated: we're not trying to make a perfect Pokémon here. We don't want another Colossoil / Krillowatt. Rock has flaws, but these will serve to balance CAP11.

Also, Fighting/Dark might make it Rotom-A's perfect mate. Rotom and CAP11 would cover eachother's weaknesses perfectly.

Support Rock.

 

[Vaz]

Well, now that we have degraded this CaP to having Fighting type as its Main Typing, it will not be as effective as it could be with Ground.

Anyway, Dark is the better option offensively which is the way we have to turn. Defensively there is not really any good synergetic power there. Fighting and Dark probide an extremely good offensive coverage which is the best we can hope for at the moment.

 

[smallvizier]

I am pleased to see these two types in the poll. When I selected my five frontrunners in the last thread, these were both on the list because they are effective offensively against Togekiss' counters, whilst still giving enough defensive synergy to be useful.

It is a little disappointing that the only two types in the poll are so similar. I always prefer there to be a genuine choice so that we can discuss the pros and cons, and hopefully learn something in the process. That's half the point of CaP in the first place, after all.

Being similar, I don't feel our votes matter hugely. I give the edge to Fighting/Dark.
- Dark also hits Cresselia, Rotom and Starmie super-effectively
- Dark has perfect neutral coverage against Togekiss' counters
- Dark and Fighting together have neutral coverage against almost everything. The exceptions can be hit by Togekiss' Flying moves.