CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 2 - Main Typing Poll 2

[Wikey]

I voted Fighting because the lack of any relevant weaknesses gives us much more leeway for the secondary typing. Fighting also has more interesting options movepool-wise. Vacuum Wave after being being passed a Nasty Plot, anyone?

 

[HouseFantastic]

I'm not really seeing any convincing reasons that ground is better than fighting at all.

• Threats like Zapdos and Gengar have immunity to both ground and fighting, so this point is moot, yet everyone keeps bringing it up why. *Rotom is the only big issue, and it has moves like hydro pump, grass knot and hidden power to mess ground up so hard. I really doubt rotom forms would suddenly carry HP Psychic just to mess with CAP11.
• Fighting and ground both resist rock so this point is also moot yet everyone keeps bringing it up why.
• Fighting has excellent mixed-attack potential with Aura Sphere and one of numerous 100+ base power STAB physical moves, along with type coverage with moves like the elemental punches being generally associated with fighting. Let's also not forget that fighting has STAB priority moves, whereas Ground does not. Ground has Earthquake and Earth Power, and uh, Bonemerang STAB. Great.
• Fighting is not weak to bulky waters, ground is. Togekiss does not appreciate them, either.
• Fighting overlap with Togekiss allows Togekiss to utilize more of its massive movepool, which would in turn increase Togekiss's use drastically, because there would be more togekiss variants to use. This was one of the discussion points brought up in the concept poll.
• Togekiss and Ground are both weak to ice. Togekiss is bulky but it's not smart to switch her in on ice moves (As pointed out to me in the typing discussion).
• Immunity is alright for a defensive core, but we are looking for offensive core, and if the pokemon is slow and bulky immunity to thunder wave is moot. I am also not convinced that neutral damage from electric attacks is a big deal at all.

 

[smallvizier]

Typing for the sake of only absorbing electric attacks is just a waste of potential. Secondary typing abilities and other things can save this.

Expecting secondary typing to cover a weakness is bad justification.

Can't have it both ways...

Also for Togekiss shrugs of ice beams, how about you go look at flareblitz's calcs for a moment?

Nobody's arguing that Togekiss is resistant to Ice... it's just that's it's his least important weakness. (1) Most OU Ice attacks are special, (2) Most OU Ice attacks lack STAB, (3) Even a Physical STAB Ice Shard from Mamoswine after Stealth Rock doesn't actually kill it.

All FlareBlitz found were some 2HKOs. Now that's not nice, but Togekiss is also 2HKO'd by Fighting attacks and Dragon attacks, and we're not rushing to cover them, are we? Ice is a problem, but not an important one, and the fact that FlareBlitz failed to find any 1HKOs (well, without using CM first to set up) is evidence of that.

The priorities are

(1) Rock resist
(2) Electric resist
(3) TWave resist
(4) Ice, Fighting resists
(5) Toxic resist

Those are the things which hurt Togekiss the most - and Ground covers the top three. Nothing else does that.

 

[KingEmpoleon]

Ground. Perfect offensive coverage with Togekiss's Flying. Lures Grass for Togekiss to come in on. Absorbs Electric. Resists Stealth Rock/Rock (though Fighting does this as well). Togekiss shrugs off UnSTABed Ice Beams. Jolteon and Rotom and Zapdos and more will have a hell of a fun time with Togekiss + Fighting.

Half the argument for Fighting is "Fighting hits Blissey SE!". What the hell Fighting type is Blissey staying in on?

Voted Ground also. Class brings up a great point here, what Fighting type does it stay in on? Blissey may have excellent HP, but it's physical defense is trash.

Ground has great coverage with Togekiss, as it does with many other Flyers. There may be a Ground-type CAP already, but Colossoil isn't the best example here. And for those of you complaining about how there already is one, there is also a Fighting-type CAP..two of them in fact.

My main argument for Ground is the sheer fact that it provides excellent synergy with Kiss, carrying resistances to the most common of Togekiss' weaknesses, Electric and Rock.

It also carries the one of the best defenses against the thing that cripples it the most, Thunder Wave. A paralyzed Togekiss cannot do it's job effectively (or at all)

Most of you who argue Fighting say that there is a shared weakness between them, which is Ice. This is true, however, do realize that most Ice users have either a) Special Offense or b) Non-STAB. Togekiss has the special defense to at least take 1-2 hits from an Ice assault, Thunder Wave the opposition/Roost off the damage.

tl;dr Ground is the better choice, if all else fails, make it a Ground/Fighting.
It's not like either choice is going to help beat Rotom anytime soon. Electric/Ghost + Levitate = Hey, guess what, I resist you!

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Half the argument for Fighting is "Fighting hits Blissey SE!". What the hell Fighting type is Blissey staying in on?

CAP 11 is likely not doing its job properly if Blissey can stay in on it.

 

[Innocent Criminal]

Fighting overlap with Togekiss allows Togekiss to utilize more of its massive movepool, which would in turn increase Togekiss's use drastically, because there would be more togekiss variants to use. This was one of the discussion points brought up in the concept poll

I must insist on that point, as it's the most important and the less obvious. Most agreed with it in Concept Assessment that this CAP should overlap with Togekiss, so I don't see why redundancy with Aura Sphere keeps by brought up as an argument against Fighting. Togekiss is not low OU because of its Electric weakness but because of its moveslot syndrome.


Even considering defensive synergy, Fighting has a less obvious but determinant advantage : you can easily add a secondary typing to Fighting to resist Electric (Fighting/Electric only adds Ground weakness, to which Togekiss is immune and adds resistance to Scizor's threatening Bullet Punch), but you can't cover at the same time Ground's weaknesses to Ice, Water and Grass (one of them is always used by Zapdos, Starmie and Jolteon, and often by Gengar and Rotom-A). Electric immunity means nothing when Ground is weak to Togekiss' counter's coverage moves.

 

[EdgeHead]

To the people saying Togekiss's ice weakness isn't that big a deal - If bulky waters can 2HKO Togekiss with Ice Beam, than that's a pretty significant problem, and Kiss can't even TWave Swampert.

 

[firecape]

But Bulky waters don't hurt Togekiss that much with Ice Beam. Vaporeon's Ice Beam does 35.3% - 41.7% to 252/0 Neutral Natured Togekiss.

Swampert never outspeeds Togekiss and Togekiss can just roost to remove the weakness. Swampert has no reliable recovery either so flinchax makes its life hell. Swampert does 33% max with Ice Beam too.

 

[DarkSlay]

I voted Ground. I think it's about time we got some facts straight about Ground, because I feel that a lot of people are (once again, like the "Electric = Levitate" CAP10 problem) stereotyping the type itself.

• Ground is weak to Ice, as is Togekiss, making it useless.
  

Looking at the entire OU section of Pokemon, the following Pokemon frequently have an Ice move used on most of their movesets:

Electivire, Jolteon, Jirachi, Mamoswine, Starmie, Suicune, Swampert, Vaporeon, Weavile, and Zapdos.

Of these Pokemon, Electivire, Jolteon, and Jirachi are hit Super Effectively by Ground attacks, so they aren't much of a threat to Ground types. Of these Pokemon, Swampert uses minimal to no investment when using Ice Beam, making it virtually not a threat to Togekiss or a potential CAP11. Zapdos is irrelevant, as it is better off using TBolt on Togekiss AND a Fighting CAP11. So, that leaves:

Mamoswine, Starmie, Suicune, Vaporeon, and Weavile.

Of these, only Mamoswine and Weavile get STAB, and both use Physical attacks only. Some damage calculations verses NP Sweeper Togekiss:

Ice Beam:
LO Starmie: 53.5% - 63.1% (Cannot OHKO after SR. Togekiss can paralyze and Roost.)
+1 SubSuicune: 57.2% - 67.9% (See: Starmie, plus NP FlinchHax bait for the rest of the match.)
Standard Vaporeon: 35.3% - 41.7% (Could fail to 2HKO after SR.)
Note that all Bulky Waters hit Grounds harder with Water attacks, making "But Togekiss will switch into Ice Beam!" seem kind of silly.

Ice Shard:
CBMamoswine: 54.5% - 64.7% (Surprisingly, does not OHKO after SR. Meanwhile, an unboosted Aura Sphere does 148.5% - 175.9% back.)
CBWeavile: 51.9% - 61.5% (See: Mamo)
Note that Ice Fang / Ice Punch OHKO with a Band.

It's obvious that I cannot begin to give you CAP11 calcs, because the Pokemon isn't made, but to be honest, these five Pokemon listed will give CAP11 the most trouble, and at the very least, three can be played around with easily by Togekiss. Is it terrible that this pair could potentially "fear" two lower-used OU Pokemon together? I don't see why people are getting so worked up over this weakness when five out of forty or so Pokemon can use it to some sort of advantage, and only two can actually beat Togekiss one-on-one with it. :/

• Ground = Colossoil lol.
  

If you have this opinion, please leave the thread now. Not to be rude, but if you think that one typing automatically qualifies CAP11 to have the same standards as a complete Colossoil, you're doing something wrong. This is a short, but sweet, statement. Just...don't. You are incredibly mistaken.

• Fighting Pokemon usually have *so and so* stats and *so and so* moves.

Like all CAP processes have been done, the competitive metagame is the basis in which we make moves and the BST. If CAP11 needs certain things to succeed, it will get them. Regardless of type. While flavor is important in some (albeit very rare) cases, saying that CAP11 will be "generally bulky if its Fighting because Machamp is" is completely irrelevant. CAP11 =/= Machamp. In my opinion, my greatest fear is that those who are voting Fighting just can't get Machamp out of their head, which CAP11 will not be like aside from STAB and weaknesses. Just remember this.

• A Ground type will only make *so and so* Pokemon better, not Togekiss!

Guess what? Guaranteed, if CAP11 is Fighting, it's going to be able to help out another OU Pokemon. It could be Scizor, who hates opposing Steel types. It could be used to bash Blissey and Snorlax for Jolteon. No matter what the typing will be, it's going to have a domino effect on the entire metagame. We knew this when the concept was selected, and we know it now. I don't care if it's Ground, Fighting, Poison, or Bug, it's going to help out a lot just because of its presence. Just because CAP11 helps out Togekiss doesn't mean it's useless outside of this role.

• Fighting helps out with *so and so* counter. Ground doesn't!

It seems that Rotom-A, Zapdos, and Blissey are getting thrown around here. That's cool and everything, but a lot of people are forgetting the fact that while Fighting handles some things well, so does Ground. While Ground can't handle things as well as Fighting, the same can be said for Fighting to Ground. What will a Fighting CAP11 do to Jolteon or Electivire that's more threatening than Ground? How about Jirachi, who can actually use its STAB Psychic often? A STAB Specs TBolt does more than a Super Effective Specs HP Ice, remember. The problem with the Fighting type is its neutrality to so many common attacking types, including things like Electric and even Water. A few weaknesses may be bad, but a whole lot of neutrality can be even worse in most cases. I just don't see how a Fighting CAP11 will be able to tank more than a Ground type simply because of one or two weaknesses.

Now, let's talk about those three Pokemon we keep mentioning:

Blissey: STAB Fighting is nice...but Blissey dies to almost every decent Physical attack anyway. Besides, Ground takes TWave out of the equation anyway, unlike Fighting (giving Ground the advantage in terms of switching in.) I see the point that Fighting basically OHKO's as long as its not Karate Chop, but Blissey can be handled numerous ways anyway.

Rotom-A: A draw. Again, if you think CAP11 needs Fighting just to get Payback, you are incorrect, so that's invalid. (See above arguments for reasoning) Rotom is immune to Ground AND Fighting. Ground is immune to its most powerful STAB option at the cost of being weak to the second and third most used Rotom-A's special attack. Fighting takes more damage than Ground from STAB TBolts and takes neutral from every attack except from Rotom-F (Super Effective, mind you). In my opinion, Ground has the edge here.

Zapdos: Much like Rotom-A, except Fighting has the advantage of getting off a 50% weaker attack when compared to 0%, while Ground is immune to its STAB. Fighting takes the most damage from Zapdos, even with a SE Hidden Power.

Where the advantage for Fighting here again?

In conclusion, stop stereotyping Ground. People have gone too far with overexaggerating the weaknesses of it here. Get the facts, and then vote. Please.

 

[EdgeHead]

Life Orb Starmie 2hkos even max HP Togekiss with Surf -> Ice Beam. CM Suicune 2hkos the same Togekiss with Ice Beam at +1 if defensive, and ohkos if offensive. Even Vaporeon with no special attack investment KOs with Surf -> Ice Beam. Again, this is all max HP Togekiss, a sweeping Togekiss does even poorer.

Starmie, Suicune, and Vaporeon are all going to cause major problems for Kiss and the CAP if it's ground.

EDIT: In response to firecape

 

[firecape]

Starmie, Suicune, and Vaporeon are all going to cause major problems for Kiss and the CAP if it's ground.

Could you provide proof/calcs/ or at least back up your arguement with facts? Because what you said in your previous post is false, as shown by my calcs.

 

[NARFNra]

Life Orb Starmie 2hkos even max HP Togekiss with Surf -> Ice Beam. CM Suicune 2hkos the same Togekiss with Ice Beam at +1 if defensive, and ohkos if offensive. Even Vaporeon with no special attack investment KOs with Surf -> Ice Beam. Again, this is all max HP Togekiss, a sweeping Togekiss does even poorer.

Starmie, Suicune, and Vaporeon are all going to cause major problems for Kiss and the CAP if it's ground.

1) You're assuming Togekiss is trying to switch in on the Surf, something I highly doubt you'd be forced to do on a standard 6 pokemon team.
2) If it isn't switching in on the Surf, it can TWave the opponent the first turn to ensure it goes first.
3) Once it has TWaved, it can Roost and leave it's Ice weakness behind. If they try Surfing, then they're setting themselves up for a Roostall or parahax, and won't be able to force Kiss out. This gives Togekiss the chance to boost itself as the opponent switches.

EDIT: Oh, and Vaporeon is slower than Kiss anyway, so guess who's going to Roost as they switch in?

 

[Innocent Criminal]

But Bulky waters don't hurt Togekiss that much with Ice Beam. Vaporeon's Ice Beam does 35.3% - 41.7% to 252/0 Neutral Natured Togekiss.

Swampert never outspeeds Togekiss and Togekiss can just roost to remove the weakness. Swampert has no reliable recovery either so flinchax makes its life hell. Swampert does 33% max with Ice Beam too.

Which means that, factoring SR damage, you can only switch in the weaker Ice Beams without running the risk to be OHKOed if you have more than 65% of Health. Even at full health, it definitely can't switch on stronger special attackers like Starmie Jolteon or even offensive suicune (who beats it with Surf, Ice beam or HP Ice/Grass). The Ice weakness doesn't need to be covered, but a double weakness is too much.

Furethermore, the only secondary typings resisting Ice are :

Ground/Fire : pointless, as it loses Rock resistance
Ground/Steel : Fighting Weak, complety useless offensively when Rotom counters are Electric or Water-typed
Ground/Water : As good as Fighting against Starmie but worse against zapdos, jolteon and some rotoms, and I don't see any synergy with Togekiss.
Ground/Ice : lol


Even if it can switch with its Electric immunity, Ground can be hit SE by Zapdos, Jolteon, Starmie, Gengar and some Rotoms, and if a bulky water show up, Togekiss will need to have 65% of health to switch in against the weaker, slower ones, and can't switch at all against starmie and offensive suicune as they outspeed and 2HKO.

Fighting isn't hit SE by any of these pokemons and can hit SE all of these with Rock and Ghost, two types with perfect coverage alongside Fighting. All it needs is to be bulky enough to take 2 neutral hits or have an Electric-resisting secondary type.

1) You're assuming Togekiss is trying to switch in on the Surf, something I highly doubt you'd be forced to do on a standard 6 pokemon team.

You're the ones talking about defensive synergy ! Are you saying that CAP absolutely needs to take NO damage from attacks targeting Togekiss, but that it doesn't matter if Togekiss is 2HKOed by attacks targeting CAP ? I would rather have Fighting take reasonable (or low with a good secondary) damage from Electric attacks than attract and be forced out the very pokemons Togekiss can't switch in on !

 

[ShravanP]

Okay guys, a note on synergy. Examples of existing synergies in OU:

Celebi + Heatran:
Type: Defensive / Offensive / Support
Explanation: They cover each others' weaknesses PERFECTLY, leading to defensive synergy. They can punch through each others' checks, get boosts passed, or cripple checks/counters with T-wave/WoW.

(Tyranitar + Lucario) or (SD Lucario + SD Scizor):
Type: Offensive
Explanation: They share some of the same checks/counters and can lure them out to weaken/eliminate them to pave the way for the other.

Jirachi + Salamence:
Type: Defensive / Offensive / Support
Explanation: They cover each others' weaknesses perfectly and can both play a multitude of different roles. Highly customizable to fit your team's needs.

Roserade + Empoleon:
Type: Offensive / Support
Explanation: Not a perfect coverage of weaknesses, but at least neutral. Roserade has TSpikes, status moves, grass STAB, and natural cure to combat bulky waters that bother Empoleon, whereas the other resists Ice and Dragon and can sweep in the absence of bulky waters and Blissey.

Some other examples:
Gyarados/Tyranitar (Offensive)
Gyarados/Agiligross (Offensive - punch holes + clean up)
Swampert/Skarmory (Defensive)

If you look at the above examples, we can derive the following patterns:

1. Covering weaknesses is important. But oftentimes, sharing weaknesses is also important, especially for offensive synergies. If you manage to draw out each others' counters, you can open the way for the other to wreak havoc.
2. Perfect coverage of weaknesses helps, but judging by the above, those combos are either defensive or consist of extremely versatile pokemon. We don't want a defensive synergy and Togekiss is not extremely versatile.
3. Also, it is impossible to achieve perfect mutual coverage of weaknesses with Normal/Flying! Water/Ground is the closest we get, and that too has a neutral coverage on Ice.

Now, since we are going for offensive synergy here, we should in fact be happy with leaving a couple of open weaknesses in exchange for wider coverage. Shared weaknesses often mean shared counters, which often leads to better attacking synergies.

We don't need to model ourselves after the perfect, happy CeleTran world. Fighting shares no weaknesses with Normal / Flying and runs the risk of the combo being weak to ITSELF! Ground offers far better options going forward, so please vote wisely.

 

[FlareBlitz]

@NARF

That first quote is mis-attributed. I'm the one who posted that. Allow me to explain my reasoning.

The entire point of a core is that you'll be switching in one Poke to cover the other Poke's weakness.
Can Togekiss switch in on a bulky water's attack against a ground type partner (Surf) and win from there? No.
Starmie beats it, Vaporeon beats it (have fun Roost-stalling after Toxic), Suicune beats it (lol calm mind), Kingdra beats it, Gyarados beats it, so on and on.
Basically any water-type with any sort of offensive capability completely wrecks this core if a partner is part Ground, particularly if those waters also carry Ice attacks.

This is why I stated in my post that bulky waters will give this core immense trouble...because they will. The only way to avoid this is to give a compensatory secondary typing or ability, which greatly limits our choices and our versatility.

Edit for ShravanP: You can't say "see, these guys don't necessarily have great defensive synergy so we don't need to" because that doesn't make any sense. I'm sure that, for example, Tyranitar would vastly prefer a partner with the same qualities as Lucario but with a part Ghost typing and Levitate. It is our goal here to make our partner as "perfect" as possible (hence Perfect Mate) so like I said, picking a type with redundant weaknesses and justifying it by saying "hey other OU pairs have redundant weaknesses too" is flawed reasoning.

And I'm not worried about the core being weak to itself. CeleTran is weak to itself...(Earth Power/Fire Blast)

 

[Bughouse]

So the plan is to Roostall Vaporeon with Togekiss? And if Vaporeon carries Toxic? Also, as Togekiss can do nothing to Vaporeon, that is the perfect time for Vaporeon to WishPass to something weak.

 

[ShravanP]

Edit for ShravanP: You can't say "see, these guys don't necessarily have great defensive synergy so we don't need to" because that doesn't make any sense. I'm sure that, for example, Tyranitar would vastly prefer a partner with the same qualities as Lucario but with a part Ghost typing and Levitate. It is our goal here to make our partner as "perfect" as possible (hence Perfect Mate) so like I said, picking a type with redundant weaknesses and justifying it by saying "hey other OU pairs have redundant weaknesses too" is flawed reasoning.

And I'm not worried about the core being weak to itself. CeleTran is weak to itself...(Earth Power/Fire Blast)

That's fair, but it's impossible for Normal/Flying to get perfect type coverage. And the closest it gets is with Ground being one of the primary types. So what is Fighting doing in the picture?

 

[Deck Knight]

Voted Ground.

Fighting is worthless for helping Togekiss in comparison to Ground. Both have an SR resistance and while Ground can be paired with another type to make it neutral to Ice, Fighting has no option to give it resistance to both Electric and Ice simultaneously.

Offensively Fighting is redundant. Togekiss has the best special Fighting move in the game and a means to boost it, and paralysis support to ensure the type it's supposed to hit, Rock, must try and play around Roost. Togekiss can beat Blissey 1on1 with Thunder Wave/Nasty Plot/Aura Sphere/Air Slash. It can also defeat Tyranitar with such a set.

I do not understand the support for Fighting at all. Togekiss beats Blissey. It doesn't need a Fighting type to help it do that at all, so the only real argument for Fighting is negated. Why would we even need another physical Fighting type when Machamp is likely going to be entirely superior? You can't get better than 130 Atk, bulky, with support like Encore and a move to strike Ghosts.

I urge all the Electric supporters who haven't voted yet to support Ground. It's the last remotely synergistic choice left.

 

[Venator]

Voted Fighting.

As I said earlier, we don't want to create a pokemon that can perfectly absorb status and counter Rotom-A, Gengar, Zapdos, Starmie, Metagross, Jirachi, Stone Edge users and their brothers. Sure, it would be Togekiss' perfect partner, but also Gyarados' perfect partner and, in short, a great pokemon on its own. Wait, didn't we already create such a pokemon ? Yes, it's called Colossoil , would be great with Togekiss but is used with Gyarados, because the latter is better.

Now, let me ask you this: Why wouldn't we want it to work on its own or with different partners?

It would not be an OU Pokemon if it was not Over Used. In fact, not being able to use it with others would probably hamper the duo's usage. Skarmory and Blissey work well interdependently and work best together. Celebi and Heatran work fine independently but best together. Why should another perfect partner break this trend. Give it Ground-typing and a certain ability and it handles most threats to Togekiss, an ability it can do for no other as well as it can for Togekiss.

There's also a reason that Collosoil is Gyarados' perfect partner: It absorbs the opponents Electric attack and hits the fleeing Electric with a STAB Pursuit with High Attack, doing severe damage (maybe KO).

We are NOT making another Collosoil and the thought that we are should not even matter since we are basing CAP 11 of off the CURRENT OU METAGAME.

Now, since you chose Fighting, I will point out a few things you may have forgotten to think about:
It does not have a single Immunity
It takes way too many neutral attacks.
What it lures are not what Togekiss wants.
By choosing Fighting, it must get a secondary typing to cover the weaknesses to Electric and Ice and get an anti-status ability.

Ground has an immunity: to Electric, allowing the switch in to a Specs Jolteon TBolt or similar for no damage.
Ground also takes plenty of neutral but also has higher Base Defense on average.
It lures Bulky Waters and Grass which Togekiss wants.
By choosing Ground, that frees up the secondary typing to be another immunity Type/ another attacking Type and allows for Mold Breaker as an ability for those pesky Gengar and Rotom who would just hate that STAB Earthquake hitting them.

Now, I voted Ground for many reasons but most of all, the resists it has to SR and Electric. There are a few other reasons but I think they've been well listed by this point.

 

[NARFNra]

Which means that, factoring SR damage, you can only switch in the weaker Ice Beams without running the risk to be OHKOed if you have more than 65% of Health. Even at full health, it definitely can't switch on stronger special attackers like Starmie Jolteon or even offensive suicune (who beats it with Surf, Ice beam or HP Ice/Grass). The Ice weakness doesn't need to be covered, but a double weakness is too much.

Let me say this again: Why. Is. Togekiss. Switching. In. On. Ice Beam/Surf?

Even if it can switch with its Electric immunity, Ground can be hit SE by Zapdos, Jolteon, Starmie, Gengar and some Rotoms, and if a bulky water show up,

Just because you're hit for SE doesn't make it instakill. We still have no idea what the secondary typing is, it could, for example, resist Water(e.g. for Zapdos, some Jolts, some Rotoms). It could even have Water Absorb and resist Grass for all I care.

Togekiss will need to have 65% of health to switch in against the weaker, slower ones, and can't switch at all against starmie and offensive suicune as they outspeed and 2HKO.

Then DON'T switch Togekiss in on Starmie and Suicune. Bring a goddamned [insert anything that can take on waters] on your team somewhere.

You're the ones talking about defensive synergy ! Are you saying that CAP absolutely needs to take NO damage from attacks targeting Togekiss, but that it doesn't matter if Togekiss is 2HKOed by attacks targeting CAP ? I would rather have Fighting take reasonable (or low with a good secondary) damage from Electric attacks than attract and be forced out the very pokemons Togekiss can't switch in on !

Once again, you're saying that you want something to switch in on a ton of neutral attacks aimed at Togekiss, and attract neutral attacks so Togekiss can take them. Fighting types attract NOTHING that Togekiss likes. Jirachi can kill it with Zen Headbutt, for example. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but won't making a Fighting type CAP only make Zapdos want to carry something like Drill Peck?

Also, forgive me if I'm wrong, but haven't most of your examples in the other poll been essentially "If Togekiss passes it a Nasty Plot, it becomes able to kill all of OU without needing to switch to Togekiss again."? Isn't that just going to make people want to pass it CM's from Celebi? If we're going to make it strong enough to easily take Thunderbolts from the likes of Zapdos, you can bet it's going to have lots of usage by itself/with others in OU.

Fighting isn't hit SE by any of these pokemons and can hit SE all of these with Rock and Ghost, two types with perfect coverage alongside Fighting. All it needs is to be bulky enough to take 2 neutral hits or have an Electric-resisting secondary type.

So, you're going to be using something like HP Rock/Shadow Ball/Focus Blast/Vacuum Wave? Or are you going to to physical and give it the same moves as Revenankh? "all it needs is to be bulky enough" Let's see what resists Electric...

Fighting/Dragon: Ice Beam weakness.
Fighting/Grass: You now have so many weaknesses it's not worth it.
Fighting/Electric: It could work, but then you'd have to give up one of your moveslots for Electric STAB. Also, Swampert, Gliscor, and Hippowdon will see the switch coming, and they will kill Togekiss very easily.

Now, let me say this again, what is a Fighting type going to attract to help Togekiss? It seems to me your thinking of it like "1: Bring Togekiss in and NP, 2: BP to Fighting type to kill everything Togekiss hates, 3: Proceed to use this Fighting type to kill the rest of the team, because Togekiss obviously has no reason to try sweeping when we've got this guy here with an NP boost and unresisted already!"

EDIT: I'm out of energy. Don't bother trying to get me to reply.

 

[FlareBlitz]

You did have a good point though ShravanP. I'm actually not particularly interested in "perfect" type coverage because, as you pointed out, that's not really possible. What I am interested in is excellent offensive synergy and a primary typing that can be combined with multiple possible secondary typings (I have quite a few in mind) without having to worry about certain key factors as far as metagame success goes (i.e. pursuit weak, stealth rock weak, weak to multiple common attacking types, etc). Fighting is the most versatile choice as far as this goes, since it doesn't "force" any typing or ability choices on us like Ground does. Let's be honest here: in order for the glaring bulky water weakness to go away we need Water/Ground or Grass/Ground, the latter of which is terrible for obvious reasons and the former of which is...acceptable but not particularly ground-breaking (pun lololol). Either that or we need an ability like Water Absorb. Either way, our versatility is greatly stifled for the entirety of the remaining process. As to why Fighting is good specifically, I covered this in my first post here as well as one of my last posts in the other poll. Please read them if you're interested, and let me know if I'm off on any arguments.

Edit, damn you people post fast. First @ NARF

Let me say this again: Why. Is. Togekiss. Switching. In. On. Ice Beam/Surf?

I don't mean to sound condescending, but do you understand what the point of a core is? If Togekiss can't switch in on Pokemon threatening its partner, we made a shitty core.

Now, @ Deck. Togekiss can run Aura Sphere, but why should it have to? It has so many options that many teams would probably find better use out of that moveslot, given that it can baton pass and heal bell and encore and stuff.

And I'm not sure why you're comparing CAP11 to Machamp when it could easily end up being specially-oriented or mixed, which Machamp can't do (well it can but...yeah, Super Machamp isn't going to be setting the metagame on fire). Machamp also isn't particularly bulky, as I pointed out before, it just seems that way because Fighting is an excellent typing. It also doesn't have a secondary typing or an ability relevant to Togekiss. We could easily do better.

 

[Chameleon]

Voting ground again.


What bothers me is that many users are claiming that a ground typing will make the CAP a better partner for Zapdos and Gyarados than Togekiss. However, some of the pokemon who are commonly used against these two are better combatted by fighting types than ground types. Besides jolteon and electivire, let's look at these:

• Gyarados: Ground struggles against swampert, celebi, and (other) conventional bulky waters, while fighting punches through porygon2. Ground and fighting hurt tyranitar.
• Zapdos: Ground struggles against swampert, celebi, and roserade, while fighting punches through blissey and snorlax.

Besides blissey, which of the pokemon listed threaten togekiss much? I am not trying to say that ground does not help zapdos, gyarados, and others at all and that fighting is perfect for them, but it's not really an issue in my opinion.

Also, another point is that a fighting type is susceptible to Thunder Wave, which is negative because not only are T-Waves aimed at togekiss, but a pokemon than benefits from togekiss' paralysis will not want to be paralyzed either. Ground does not have this problem.

And colossoil; The CAP project is to test how pokemon will function in OU, not along with the rest of the new pokemon, correct? So unless colossoil became togekiss' greatest partner already, in which case this project would have been rejected, then it is not relevant.

 

[NARFNra]

Now, @ Deck. Togekiss can run Aura Sphere, but why should it have to? It has so many options that many teams would probably find better use out of that moveslot, given that it can baton pass and heal bell and encore and stuff.

Maybe because Air Slash is really shitty STAB without Fighting move coverage? It'd make an incredibly predictable core, something like "Togekiss NP's, SpecsJolt switches in". Let's see, we can switch to our Fighter and take a ton of damage, or we can keep Togekiss in and die. Now let's try "Togekiss NP's, Zapdos switches in". You switch to your Fighter, and oh dear it's taken off half of your HP. "Togekiss NP's, Rotom-anything switches switches in" Well, STAB TBolt is still going to take a ton off your fighter, and if they're running, say, Overheat, I hope you've got the special defenses of Hariyama there. Basically, not running Aura Sphere drastically lowers the damage dealing potential/usefulness of Togekiss.

 

[TubaKing]

Fighting:

• Has better synergy with Togekiss
• Grants greater offensive versality
• Leaves more viable options for a secondary typing (I'm leaning towards Electric currently)
• Does not make the combo Bulky Water weak
• STAB allows for Togekiss to not have to run Aura Sphere
• Doesn't aid other Flying types more than Togekiss
• Could make better use of Togekiss's ability to Baton Pass Nasty Plots
• Is only inferior to Ground in the respect that is not immune to Electric, as far as I can tell, which can easily be dealt with later in the process

 

[KingEmpoleon]

The one problem I've seen thus far with this entire thing is either:

a) Bulky Water Mons
b) Rotom-A, Blissey, Zapdos, etc...
c) Shared Weaknesses

As I see it, CAP11 probably won't be able to handle everything as, well, nothing can. It is very unlikely we won't get the perfect synergy that Celebi and Heatran have, and it is far more unlikely that it'll be given the tools to try to attain that. Both typings have their flaws, Ground shares a common weakness with Togekiss, and Fighting, in a way, makes the combo weak to itself.

We can't all get what we want.

One last thing though:

Ground:

Pros:
-Thunder Wave/Electric Resist = Important to how Togekiss performs it's job.
-Resists 2/3 of Togekiss' weaknesses
-Excellent offensive combination = Togekiss hits from the Special spectrum whereas Ground is (usually) on the Physical side
-Makes for an excellent lure, bringing in mons that Togekiss can effectively perform it's job against

Cons:
-Shared Ice Weakness
-Fails against Levitate, which many common OU mons have as an ability
-Not a defensive typing, weak to common attacks in OU barring Stone Edge/T-Bolt/The like

Fighting:

Pros:
-No shared weaknesses
-Can hit Flyers
-Handles Blissey well
-Helps to reduce Kiss' "movepool syndrome"

Cons:
-Fighting + Normal/Flying = Weak to itself, Fighting Types generally carry Stone Edge to hit Flying-types super-effectively/hit Zapdos, etc...
-STAB Fighting doesn't go over well in the OU metagame, as it is resisted/nullified by: Ghosts/Psychics/Zapdos/et cetera
-Doesn't have many resistances, which prevents it from being defensive, which is important to it's core

Shared Pros:

-Great offensive typing when paired with Togekiss
-Can switch in to SR more, allowing it to be more effective in their desired job.

Shared Cons:

-Both have their weaknesses. Nothing is perfect. Except for CeleTran.

tl;dr version:

Take your pick. Just think before you click.