CAP 11 CAP 11 - Main Typing Discussion

[Yllnath]

Yes, Steel STAB isn't gonna get people jumping for joy, but the concept is to help the OU pokemon sweep. WE ARE NOT BUILDING A SWEEPER. If this thing can sweep, we've failed in our concept, and made a pokemon that benifits from Togekiss, more than Togekiss benifits from it. Electric and Ground are both capable of Sweeping with their good stabs. Steels, less so. Lucario dosen't use Steel STAB, nor does Emploeon, nor does CM Jirachi, and Metagross just has absurd attack, a chance to raise it, immunity to Intimidate, and even then needs Agilty to really sweep.

I think I missed the part where ever was mentioned that CAP11 itself isn't allowed to sweep. A perfect mate combination such as Celetran or GyaraVira isn't centered around 1 poke, the other only being it's slave. Both are good pokemons in their own right, and both have defensive and offensive prowess.
And especially in a combination where there is a pokemon like Togekiss who has a myriad of supporting options, most notably it's rare ability to pass Nasty Plots, but also Wish, Encore, Heal Bell, etc, it seems foolish to make a CAP who only emphasizes on a small part of Togekiss' capabilities.
No, I feel that making this CAP a pokemon who can make use of Togekiss' support options or NP boosting, while in turn also cleaning the field for Togekiss to FlinchHax itself to victory is a far far more rewarding synergy, and makes us get far more from Togekiss' options than just saying that we should only focus on getting Togekiss to sweep when it's stats aren't amazing (speed remains an issue whatever way you spell it) and has issues with 4mss.

 

[Solstice]

There seems to be speculation about luring in Fighting types, which I have to say I think is a TERRIBLE idea!! Togekiss is neutral to fighting, and while her STAB Air Slash hits them hard, she can't reliably switch into fighting moves!! Stealth Rock and Close Combat from a Lucario is a KO, Dynamic Punch hits her hard, pretty much all of the STAB fightings in the game are more than she can handle. The typing should actually resist Fighting in my opinion, which is why Psychic is more of a viable option, if maybe not the best.

 

[dxiyczk]

They're meant to be partners, which means that they can switch in and absorb attacks for each-other, and generally prolong each others lifespan. Making a pokemon that's exactly the same as Togekiss won't take care of it's counters at all, because no matter what Togekiss set you're running, there IS a counter to Togekiss.

Yes, but different pokemon counter each set. For instance, LO Nasty Plot Kiss has no problem with Tyranitar while the bulky sets do. Kiss has enough variety that different movesets are countered by different pokemon, but still support each other. In the same way Specs, Agility and SD Lucario all have their merits, but can't all be used at once, Kiss has enough variety to be essentially used on the team twice.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I want to emphasize to people who are against Ground-type specifically because of Colossoil that Colossoil is the quintessential "best Ground-type" ever. That we allowed him to become that is a tragedy that revisions will eventually end up fixing (which is irrelevant, really, since that only affects the CAP metagame). Still, though, do not let Colossoil deter you from supporting the Ground-type.

I'd also like to point out that everyone crying havoc over the dual Ice-type weaknesses of Togekiss and a Ground-type CAP11 is unfounded. For starters, there are far more STAB Thunderbolts in OU than STAB Ice Beams. As a matter of fact, the only viable STAB special attackers are Abomasnow and Mamoswine in Hail. Meanwhile, Rotom-A, Zapdos, Jolteon, and (I guess) Electivire flood the streets with STAB Thunderbolt. Because of this, Togekiss takes those non-STAB Ice Beams far better than STAB Thunderbolts, which makes the Electric-type something we should be addressing with more urgency. Ground-type also covering the Rock-type and boasting an SR resistance is icing on the cake. Ground-type is the best here, hands down.

Also, with regard to Ground-types luring in Flying-type Pokemon that Togekiss doesn't particularly like. While this may be true to handle the STAB Earthquake or whatever CAP11 has, CAP11's added coverage may make it an unfavorable situation for Flyers to switch into. It's too early to claim that Ground-type will be luring the wrong things.

Lastly, let's all remember:

Our core needs some kind of a weakness.
​

That is all.

 

[Innocent Criminal]

I think something really needs to be said :

We do NOT want to make Togekiss' perfect partner. We want to design a pokemon so that it will become Togekiss' perfect partner

If you don't understand my point, just take a look at past CAPs :

We wanted wanted to make Krilowatt the best utility counter, and we did. Speed, Bulk and Magic Coat are great, but even better for a LO sweeper.

We wanted Colossoil to stop secondary damage perfectly, and no one can rapid spin better than him. But, heh, why bother spinning rocks away when you can just ask it to kill everything that moves ?


A lot of suggestions are not only great Togekiss partners, but also great Gyarados partners, great Zapdos partners or just great pokemons. If CAP11 supports even only 1 good OU pokemon just as well as Togekiss, we will fail.

Most agreed in Concept Assessment that CAP11 needs to perform more or less the same roles than Togekiss, albeit differently. As someone said earlier, Togekiss has great versatility and unique options, but is low OU because of its many, many flaws, like horrible typing, moveslot syndrome and unability to really achieve anything on its own. If we asked people unaware of this CAP how they would use a bulky water who can spread paralysis and kill electric types, and I am pretty sure Togekiss wouldn't even be brought up, as it could support many better pokemons.

We don't want a great pokemon that can perfectly absorb status and kill Rotom-A, Zapdos, Gengar, Jirachi, Metagross, Stone Edge users and their brothers, we want a mediocre, low OU pokemon that can only shine with Togekiss.

You can't beat every Togekiss counter without helping other pokemons. You can't cover every Togekiss weakness without covering those of other pokemons. But you can build a specific synergy with Togekiss' uniqueness, and then focus of making that specific bond the strongest possible.

Water and Steel are just to good and in no way specific to Togekiss.

Ground and Electric are okay, but Ice weakness is a letdown and I don't see any synergy really specific to Togekiss.

A specially offensive Fighting pokemon might not seem very appealing, but that's what makes it a great choice. Its bond with Togekiss is less obvious, but very specific : Rock is Togekiss' greatest weakness, Fighting has the best offensive synergy with Flying, can make a great neutral supporter (think of Hariyama) and needs Nasty Passing to sweep, but can be very threatening with it, packing SE STAB against the three main special walls.

It's interesting to note that Electivire, Togekiss' first partner (by change) has many caracteristics that a Fighting CAP11 would need : with great special coverage and a way to kill Blissey, Snorlax and TTar but low SpA and Spe, it is bad by itself but... well, definitely better with paralysis support and Nasty Passing. We don't want a better Electivire as mixed Motor Drive user (that would just create a viable GyaraVire), but a better Electivire as a Togekiss partner. I think STAB Fighting is the way to go, as it wouldn't need a High Attack to go mixed, or could simply recieve Nasty Plots to muscle its way past Blissey.

 

[Wikey]

I just want to reiterate that Steel seems like a poor choice for this. Steel is the most powerful type in OU right now with many teams carrying two. There are ten Steels in OU, seven with unique typings. If we were going to find a perfect mate for Togekiss in the Steel type wouldn't we have found one from an existing Pokémon? And as has been said, Steel benefits every other OU flyer more than Togekiss because other flyers benefit from the attacks Steel types draw more than Kiss. Dragonite and Mence also benefit from Steel's resistance to Ice more than Kiss who is specially bulky and only 2x weak. The Dragons also benefit from the Dragon resist of Steel. Any of the good things about Steel benefit other Flyers more and will result in other Pokémon being used over Kiss.

 

[Not Scicky]

Yes, but different pokemon counter each set. For instance, LO Nasty Plot Kiss has no problem with Tyranitar while the bulky sets do. Kiss has enough variety that different movesets are countered by different pokemon, but still support each other. In the same way Specs, Agility and SD Lucario all have their merits, but can't all be used at once, Kiss has enough variety to be essentially used on the team twice.

But LO Nasty Plot Kiss can't switch into Tyranitar, it can only have Tyranitar switch into it. So they don't really help each-other if they're just going to die when you switch the other in :/

 

[cim]

Yes, but different pokemon counter each set. For instance, LO Nasty Plot Kiss has no problem with Tyranitar while the bulky sets do. Kiss has enough variety that different movesets are countered by different pokemon, but still support each other. In the same way Specs, Agility and SD Lucario all have their merits, but can't all be used at once, Kiss has enough variety to be essentially used on the team twice.

Bulky NP sets have zero problem with Tyranitar as well. For what it's worth, I don't care if the perfect mate makes Choice Band Togekiss work or not.

Anyone concerned about a double Ice weak when picking Ground be aware: Togekiss with even a handful of HP EVs isn't 2HKOed by Vaporeon Ice Beam after Stealth Rock. It's a non issue.

 

[ShravanP]

We don't want a great pokemon that can perfectly absorb status and kill Rotom-A, Zapdos, Gengar, Jirachi, Metagross, Stone Edge users and their brothers, we want a mediocre, low OU pokemon that can only shine with Togekiss.

You can't beat every Togekiss counter without helping other pokemons. You can't cover every Togekiss weakness without covering those of other pokemons. But you can build a specific synergy with Togekiss' uniqueness, and then focus of making that specific bond the strongest possible.

I absolutely agree with this. At this point of the game, we need to put a greater emphasis on uniqueness and expandability rather than on a general, all purpose cover-all-weaknesses type. Rock, Electric, Fighting, and Psychic all fit the bill here, but I still lean towards Psychic because, to quote bmb, "my desire to try something new" is indeed stronger than my competitive reasoning at this point.

It is far more rewarding to take the riskier challenge of making a unique Psychic type rather than going with something that's been done before. Psychic is definitely the riskier option, and it will take some guts and ingenuity to make it work. But that's exactly where the fun lies! Are we to stick with safe options like Electric and Rock or take up a challenge on something like Psychic?

 

[Class]

People keep bringing up Psychic as a lure to Ghost types... Togekiss has no business switching in on Rotom or Gengar unless they're Scarf. Ghost attacks are simply the wrong types to lure. Grass/Ground are much better, as Togekiss fares much better against common users of those, like standard Gliscor, Celebi, etc.

 

[Fuzznip]

I'm back and I'm not particularly happy with this thread. A lot of you are going way off-topic with this; dozens of posts had to be deleted because you simply don't get it. Like I said in my previous post, the bigger picture is being missed. I'll explain my thoughts to the types I do not like.

Poison: No, Poison is not what I'm looking for at all. In case the people suggesting this type forgot what kind of synergy is being pursued, let me restate it: primarily offensive with key defensive/supportive synergies. Poison is not primarily offensive, it's a relatively horrible STAB attack. Yes, I know it is immune to Toxic and Togekiss hates that, but that's pretty much it. Sure it resists Fighting, but Togekiss is not even weak to it and Togekiss does have Air Slash to deal with a lot of the Fighting-types in the metagame. Why are we picking Fighting? Can't we say that Togekiss has trouble with Outrage? Flare Blitz? Meteor Mash? Those are three powerful attacks, just like Close Combat, that give Togekiss trouble. I don't see any argument behind Poison. It's bad.

Water: Why are we suggesting Water? It doesn't help Togekiss with anything. First of all, Togekiss already has an unfortunate weakness to Thunderbolt, and if we want to double up on that by using Water, we are really hindering this duo's effectiveness. STAB Thunderbolt is really common in OU. Water does resist Ice Beam, but Togekiss has the special bulk to take these unSTABed Ice Beams, paralyze the threat that uses them, and take neutral damage by using Roost. Also, Water lures in Electric attacks way more than Grass, so I'm not really sold on Water luring Grass.

Psychic: I originally liked Psychic, but after thinking about it, I think it's a poor choice. Psychic doesn't resist any of Togekiss's weaknesses, so there isn't any defensive synergy between the two. I know Psychic lures Shadow Ball, but the main users of those are Rotom-A and Gengar, both of whom Togekiss does not want to be up against. Psychic also lures in Dark, meaning that it has a Pursuit weakness. The only way to even bypass this is with Baton Pass, which is probably the only reason why I like Psychic. Baton Pass is actually a good strategy here. Aside from that, there is nothing else Psychic does.

Having said that, I have chosen my slate for the Main Typing poll, which will be up soon. Please let's keep the discussion healthy like it was in the Concept Assessment threads. I don't want to deal with something like this again.