CAP 11 CAP 11 - Concept Assessment 1

[Quilph]

I strongly support Rising Dusk's nomination of Weavile.

I have to be honest and say that part of this stems from Weavile being one of my favorites, having had a continuous spot on my team ever since I began to play competitively. His incredible attack and speed make him a force to be reckoned with. It is true that, in terms of physical moves, he has been consigned to use attacks of mediocre power, and the extent of his fragility is regrettable. That has not been enough to dissuade me from using him though. His attack and speed are superlative enough to pull Weavile beyond his shortcomings and if played wisely, a better asset to a team is hard to find. It sounds like the main criticism toward using him as our model is his frailty. Instead of seeing this as a stumbling block, I see it as a fertile opportunity to find out how we can explore what kind of factors can ameliorate his problems. Ideally, we want to challenge ourselves. If the main objective here is to learn from this CAP, Weavile provides a chance to see how much a partner can be expected to help a Pokemon that needs it the most. Togekiss is so well endowed stat-wise that I have to wonder whether she needs a partner at all. We don't want to make an excessively powerful duo; the point of this concept seems to be finding out how to work with something so that we can learn, in the process, what ingredients are needed for a team that works well together. Sure, I suppose that anything could use a partner, but not all Pokemon need one. It seems to me that Weavile has the most to gain from a mate here. The resulting discussion would go a long way toward answering the question of how something with enormous offensive prowess and speed has apparently become an afterthought in team-building. Frailty and lack of strong STAB moves are not sufficient reason for Weavile to gather dust.

 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

I oppose Weavile for the simple reason that lack of partners is not Weavile's problem currently. I disagree with the above poster that Weavile is "a Pokemon that needs it the most" or that "Weavile has the most to gain from a mate."

Weavile's problem is that it does only two things well: revenge killer and anti-lead. It has STAB Ice Shard and STAB Pursuit on the same Pokemon. It has a suite of anti-lead options like Fake Out and Taunt. It has the Attack and Speed to abuse these moves. These few things are all that keep Weavile OU, and a partner will not change that. Nidoking and Nidoqueen already have large movepools and a type combination that complements Weavile's to near-Celetran levels. Nobody even considers using them for this purpose, and giving them BST 555 will make no difference. If your team needs more help with Dragons or Ghosts than Scizor can give, or if you really need to keep Azelf and Aerodactyl from getting rocks up, you will consider Weavile. The only partner that could make him a consistent sweeping threat would be a Move Tutor willing to teach him Flare Blitz.

 

[Mektar]

You guys gave me an idea. I'm not sure how bugmaniacbob made has lists, but this one it all about type. This list catalogs how often each type appears on a Pokemon in OU and BL (Rotom-A counts as one Pokemon).

Normal: 6
Fire: 2
Water: 8
Grass: 5
Bug: 5
Flying: 14
Fighting: 6
Psychic: 8
Dark: 4
Ghost: 4
Poison: 4
Ground: 5
Rock: 2
Steel: 10
Dragon: 4
Electric: 6
Ice: 4

To prevent CAP 11 from improving more than one Pokemon, we should choose a Pokemon with very low combined type numbers on this list. For example, Skarmory has a score of 24, meaning that if we made a Perfect Mate for it, it would improve many Pokemon other than Skarmory. However, Weavile has a score of 8, meaning that there is a much lower chance of Weavile's Perfect Mate effecting other Pokemon. Yes, I know Tyranitar has a low score on here, but he doesn't need the improvement. I still think this might help though.

 

[CobraJSF]

There is more than one type of synergy. For example, if we gave Infernape, with a score of 8, a partner that helped it out with wallbreaking, than other wallbreakers would be helped out by that partner, regardless of the typing. On the flip side, if we gave Gengar, also an 8, a partner that helped its SubSplit set, then Rotom would also be a beneficiary. You cannot judge the effect of a partner based solely on typing. And if we go by that then my choice, Raikou, a 6, is a great choice.

 

[Quilph]

Res Ipsa Loquitur, you've made some very important points, and I'm glad for the feedback. Let me point out though that the point is not to turn Weavile into a sweeper, but rather to make him more playable in the current metagame. To accept your argument, one needs to agree that Weavile is only good for revenge killing and as an anti-lead. Granted, he does those things very well, but Weavile also has utility as a general attacker. But in this role he currently has considerable difficulty because of Pokemon like Scizor, which stops Weavile cold. A partner would enable Weavile to further develop the capacity as an attacker, so that he isn't stuck with the two strategies you mention. Weavile's perfect mate could cover the offensive aspects Weavile lacks (like a fire move) and we can find out whether a partner crafted in that way has any chance to change the role Weavile plays.

I also find Mektar's analysis very intriguing, since I know concern has been expressed over the amount of overlap our CAP11 could have on Pokemon other than the one we choose here. The data as it is shown there suggests that this CAP would have less of a chance of applying to anything other than Weavile, for this example.

 

[familyguyman]

One thing I think we have to consider is possible compliments to some popular suggestions.

For Zapdos, CAP11 should cover Ice and Rock reasonably well, this means Fighting type + dual type or Steel typing. Of course there are ways around it, such as Thick Fat + Ground/Water but for the most part, this is it. Do we really want another Fighting CAP? Another Steel or Water for OU? I'm am not sure.

Togekiss' partner should cover Ice, Electric AND Rock. Not much out there can do that outside of Magnezone or Water/Electric which we just did, without resorting to weird abilities.

Weavile is also something I am not fond of because it's biggest problem is Scizor which is everyone's problem. Well, that and Stealth Rock and a crappy move pool. Regardless, Weavile is a niche Pokemon and will likely remain as such with a partner or not.


Some other options to bring to the table, others can expand on them, are Snorlax, Vaporeon/Suicune and Flygon.

 

[kd24]

typing shouldn't be affecting what we choose, good partners already have issues with types (skarmbliss has issues with fighting, elc, fire, (in fact, neither do anything for the others typing) and stuff like gyarajolt as deck said, lose to strong stone edge). there are a ton more examples but for this cap, we should be looking at synergy and goals, not just typing - otherwise, there isn't much left to do and we will be forced into creating a certain type of pokemon.

 

[familyguyman]

typing shouldn't be affecting what we choose, good partners already have issues with types (skarmbliss has issues with fighting, elc, fire, (in fact, neither do anything for the others typing) and stuff like gyarajolt as deck said, lose to strong stone edge). there are a ton more examples but for this cap, we should be looking at synergy and goals, not just typing - otherwise, there isn't much left to do and we will be forced into creating a certain type of pokemon.

That is very true, I am just a bit hesitant to pursue a path where the simple and effective solution might end up being stale. When you are looking at robust, bulky Pokemon without clearly exploitable weaknesses to cover, the result is less of a GyaraJolt or SkarmBliss and more of a CeleTran where it's all about complimentary typing. Zapdos and Togekiss happen to require very stale complimentary typings which I feel limits us.

 

[kd24]

In my eyes, we should choose pokemon like Togekiss or Zapdos, not because they are bulky and we want to do another celetran, but because they have a lot of power and sweeping capability, but don't have the proper partner they can use.

It's confusing but I think we want the perfect partner to the pokemon in that they compliment each other's weaknesses to specific pokemon, not types, and work together to help each other, with their bulk as a good thing but not the necessity. And what differs celetran from this is that in this perfect mate, I want both parties able to hold their own as sweepers or whatever role they are meant to be. Celebi's role is basically paralyze stuff, lure in fire attacks, and switch into bulky waters while Heatran does all the heavy cleaning - they do it well but because this is a bit one sided as far as sweeping goes, it's why it relies so much on typing.

Man i hope i dont sound too confusing =/, hopefully i can try and elaborate more on my points.

 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Snorlax is an interesting thought. It would be possible to cover all of its issues on one Pokemon without a lot of overlap. I am going to suggest it for strong consideration.

Pokemon Name: Snorlax

Why this Pokemon: Snorlax is interesting as the only major Curse user in OU; only 7.4% of Hippowodon and 12.3% of Swampert used Curse in June. We have the odd Bulk Up Machamp (just 6.6%), but for the most part there are no bulky physical setup sweepers in OU. Bulk Up Dialga and Curse Muk are good for their formats, and OU could benefit from a stronger Curselax. Snorlax is also interesting in that it has special bulk but attacks physically (the opposite of Cyclohm!). It does much the same job as Blissey without the bias toward slow games. There are many reasons to like Snorlax, and it deserves another shot at the limelight.

What are the possibilities: Snorlax has four major problems: Fighting-type attacks, any strong physical attacks, any physically bulky Hazer or phazer, and Trick. This makes it a great candidate for the Perfect Mate because no higher-usage Pokemon shares all four of these issues. Snorlax will almost certainly be the best recipient of the CAP's help.

Stopping Fighting-type attacks makes a Ghost-type the obvious choice. Most Ghost-types tend to learn Will-O-Wisp, which also helps to stop the strong physical attackers and give Snorlax an opportunity to set up. Snorlax can resist Ice- and Fire-types with its Thick Fat ability, so it could be useful to add a secondary type with complementary resistances. A Ghost/Grass Pokemon would benefit from the Ice- and Fire-type resistances as well as Snorlax's Ghost immunity while having additional weaknesses only to Dark and Flying, and it would assist the physically-frailer Snorlax with resistances to Earthquake and Waterfall. This Pokemon's STAB could help further. Ghost-type STAB hits the Normal-immune Ghost-types that sometimes plague Snorlax as well as the Psychic-type Trick users. It also hits Celebi, which can wall Snorlax and phaze with Perish Song. Grass-type handles many phazers, like Suicune, Swampert, and Hippowdon, and Hazers like Milotic and Politoed. And with just 110 base Special Attack (the same as Snorlax's Attack), it has a chance to OHKO standard Skarmory after Stealth Rock with Hidden Power Fire.

A Pokemon like this would help Snorlax serve as a component of a potent bulky offense core. It could also help pave the way for Snorlax to set up a Curse sweep. And best of all, no Pokemon would benefit from its presence more than Snorlax, meaning that it will not merely become a new toy for an existing powerhouse like Tyranitar or Scizor. This is a great route to take for this CAP.

 

[Jebus McAzn]

Breloom
Empoleon
Heracross
Magnezone
Mamoswine
Roserade
Swampert
Togekiss
Zapdos
Abomasnow
Crobat

Breloom is already a monster in OU play. While he is indeed frail, giving him any support would make him that much more fearsome. I don't think Breloom really falls into the "low OU" category when he's capable of sweeping entire teams easily. However, building a partner around Breloom would be interesting and pretty straightforward, covering his frail defenses.

Empoleon is truly an interesting option in that he can be extremely deadly with a Petaya boost and Torrent, but as others have said already, it'll be difficult to find a Perfect Mate for Empoleon without boosting Gyarados and Suicune as well.

Heracross support would only be beneficial to Lucario. While Heracross's STAB Bug serves to eliminate Psychics, Ghosts, and Darks, Lucario does the same with Crunch and Close Combat, or Dark Pulse and Aura Sphere. Thus that argument is rendered moot. Heracross doesn't harbor a Ground weakness, but making a Perfect Mate for Heracross with only the justification that "it can switch in on Ground type attacks" makes it beneficial to too many Pokemon (Heatran, for example).

Magnezone's problem here, in my opinion, is that it's too much of a niche Pokemon. The vast majority of the time, Magnezone is used as a Steel trapper. What could we possibly base a partner Pokemon around? Magnezone's job is to trap and kill Steels; he's not a team player, more of an assassin, if you'll permit the analogy.

Mamoswine is great for this CAP. He's got amazing offensive capabilities and power in STAB Ice Shard, in addition to a very useful STAB Earthquake. 130 Atk leads to it having the third strongest Earthquake in the game. However, Mamoswine is countered too strongly by common OU Pokemon, like Scizor, Skarmory, and to an extent, Gyarados. Thus, a partner for Mamoswine can take care of these threats, and elevate this Pokemon to a higher OU position. Mamoswine is a good candidate, in my opinion.

Roserade, like Magnezone, has a problem in that it's too much of a niche Pokemon. Roserade is commonly used as a lead or a Spiker, support for which is not needed.

Swampert, while easy to build a partner around (give it a Grass resistance, voila), is already too much of an OU presence to really consider it "low OU".

Togekiss. Well now, there's been an awful lot of hubbub about Kiss. One of the primary arguments for Togekiss is that it's hard to fit her into a team. I think this may be caused in part by the speedily growing popularity of Jirachi, especially ScarfRachi. Iron Head flinchhax has surpassed the use of Air Slash hax, perhaps because of Jirachi's more balanced stats and neutrality to Electric attacks. Still, Togekiss's movepool is massive, and her variants are numerous, to say the least. A Togekiss partner has lots of potential, but one thing we have to look out for is not to boost other Flinchhaxxers, notably Jirachi, up too far.

Zapdos is already quite powerful, but hasn't been seeing much use. I'm not a Zapdos expert, but I think that a mate for this bird has quite a bit of potential.

Abomasnow Like I said already, Abomasnow's typing makes it a perfect counter to Krilowatt, while he's also capable of dealing heavy damage to many other CAP Pokemon. Hail in the CAP metagame would also make Syclant much more viable.

Crobat Not much use here. Crobat doesn't have great variety in his sets, and he's much like Weavile in that he's a high-speed, fragile sweeper that doesn't really like to work together with other Pokemon.


I think one thing we have to remember in this CAP is that not only should our CAP support our target Pokemon, but our target Pokemon should support our CAP as well. If CAP 11 is Togekiss's perfect mate, Togekiss's role must complement that of CAP 11's in some way. I'm in agreement with bugmaniacbob; Pokemon like Weavile can't really support, nor is it easy to provide support for them. Take GyaraJolt, for example. Gyarados takes Ground attacks aimed at Jolteon while Jolteon takes Electric moves aimed at Gyarados. This should be the partnership that CAP 11 aims for.

 

[Mattman324]

Here's an odd idea.

Pokemon's Name: Electivire

LET'S GET THIS OUT OF THE WAY NOW: Gyarados is not the perfect mate to Electivire. All it does is bait Electric attacks, and CAN take ground attacks (But not Rock attacks commonly paired with them).

Why This Pokemon?: Electivire is an interesting pokemon. He has a great offensive movepool, and good stats, and the ability Motor Drive to boost it's speed. Why, then, is it not top OU? Well, Electivire unfortunately has the same problem as Weavile, in that it relys on low powered STAB and low powered/accuracy coverage moves to sweep. It has GOOD coverage though, and CAN be employed as a cleaner... if you can keep it alive until then. This is where most people will bring in Gyarados to bat an Electric attack, but if Gyara is still alive at that point, and the opponent still has an electric attacker, they may be wary of Dragon Dance.

Electivire is weak to Ground. That is it's only weakness, but it is a massive one, as Earthquake is widely learned and well used. Earthquake is resisted by two types (Grass and Bug) and doesn't affect one type (Flying), so this pokemon should be one of those types.

Elective has the ability Motor Drive. This ability means that anytime any Electric attacks hit Elective, it's speed is boosted by one stage. Baiting in an Electric attack isn't as easy as slapping a Water/Flying type onto this pokemon, but it helps. Infact, I'd be willing to say that Flying (As a type immune to EQ and weak to Electric) is almost a necisary type for this pokemon to have.

However, Motor Drive also works with the move Thunder Wave. Thunder Wave is the most widespread way to paralise something, and is used to stop many sweepers in their tracks. If this pokemon were a sweeper, getting good offensive coverage alongside the Electric/Ice/Ground/Fighting coverage that Elective almost always provides, then it would easily bait this. Of note is that Blissey also commonly uses Thunder Wave.

I belive that this pokemon should provide much offensive syenergy alongside Electivire. Your opponent will be scrambling to take it down, and after it (And your other pokemon) weakens your opponents team enough, it switches out of an electric attack and allows Electivire to do what it truly does best: that being the final cleaner.

 

[bubbly]

Jebus, although I don't really support Crobat, he definitely has a fair bit of variety. Between his physical sets, lead set and options, and Nasty Plot, he's not exactly a one trick pony.

 

[Fuzznip]

I've made my decision. Togekiss will be our base Pokemon for the Perfect Mate concept. I am happy with all of the good discussion and arguments being brought up in this thread. Great work everyone, keep it up.

Concept Assessment 2 will be posted soon.